Quote from: Wolfwere13;739404I've always used Method I, 4d6 drop lowest. Some of my more "hard core" AD&D DMs, always insisted on 3d6 down the line, which I don't mind, but as stated in the OP, not the default as most players think.

In the design of my own "AD&D" system variant, I decided to scrap the roll first, pick later part of D&D. In my game, players pick a race and class first, then roll a number of dice per stat, based on a table. I wanted to eliminate any sort of subsequent attribute modifiers, so I simply adjusted the number of dice rolled instead. I also didn't place race/class restrictions either, the stats alone would take care of that.

You can see the stat-gen system I developed if you click on the image below:



My intent was to allow race/class synergy, without muddying the waters with static bonuses and penalties. The "potential" for rolling low or high is based on the number of dice you get to roll, but even that doesn't guarantee high stats, only the chance to have higher stats. Some stats could have as little as 2d6, while other 6d6, with 4d6 being the average.

Good idea I referred to that concept somewhere in the midst of the gender war thread.

However if you look at the numbers and compare races to animals (easiest way to get a compare). Would you expect any dragonborn to be weaker than a hobbit? say if you give them 5d6 Strength and a hobbit 2d6 you are going to end up with a small but substantial number that are.  
Now not saying its a bad system, in fact I designed a sci fi game where each PC chose their own unique race (riffing off Ace Trucking a 2000ad strip) and assigned dice from a pool to each state and could sell dice for additional racial features (7 stats 42 d6 to assign, min 1d6 max 7d6, wings cost 2d6, armoured hide 1d6 etc etc ...). However there is an alternate which is that you give max/min prereqs for races just like classes. that way everyone rolls the same number of dice and you can ensure that all elves have at least 13 dex and the strongest hobbit has 11 strength (or whatever you set those numbers to)

The first method gets really min/maxy the second removes all min/max elements but because of that will be seen as dull by some.

for the statistical breakdown of 4d6 drop and 3d6x12 you can go here - http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/1528/what-is-the-statistically-superior-character-creation-method-twelve-3d6-or-six

the graphic is -

Quote from: S'mon;739405My favourite method is best 3 of 4d6 in order, then swap any pair. Players can have a high stat where they want it, but characters still look organic.

One of the DMs I played with semi-regularly at a con used that method too. Another one did that with the 3d6 in order system.

Unless I really have no idea what I want (or need if the group is missing something) I prefer to select stats that fit the character concept I have for DnD of any version.*  Failing that I prefer point buy.**  I mostly hate rolling for anything during character generation in any game.***  I'm not afraid of having low stats, I actually prefer some, it's most DMs who seem to have a problem with them in my experience.  Even picking them from thin air I'll almost guarantee that I have the lowest average in the group.


*Unless you require watching me roll, I will do this anyway.  I hesitate to call it cheating since every time I do the DM ends up adjusting my stats up to fit the rest of the players who all seem to be statistical anomalies (of the high sort).  I've noticed this trend everywhere I've gamed, and I've gamed lots of different places.

**I almost won't play unless I'm given this option.  DnD isn't my favorite game, but sometimes I like to play and it's what's being offered.  And rarely I'll bust out my RC to run.

***Main exceptions are LBB Traveller and WHFRP 1e, though Paranoia and CoC are OK too.

Quote from: mhensley;739428here's some analysis i ran on a bunch of different methods for rolling stats.

http://1d8.blogspot.com/2011/07/stat-rolling-and-power-level.html

i think my favorite these days is roll 3d6 and count 1's as 4's, swap any two scores.

I'M IN.

14
11
16
12
8
17

Without any swap!!! That statline is solid to awesome in every version except 4e. I'm much better with d10's though.... <--->.

I wrote a long post with detail about the odds of 4d6 drp vs 12x3d6 but the laptop crashed...meh

Anyway short version
4d6 drop gives you about 9.4% chance of getting an 18 and a 30% chance of getting at least one 17.

12x3d6 gives you a 5.4% chance of getting an 18 and a 20.1% chance of getting at least one 17.
But 12x 3d6 removes the chance of getting bad stats. So to get at least one stat 8 or less on 12x3d6 is 2.8% where as 4d6 drop gives you 10.5%.

Then I had loads of comments of what this means for actual game balance and the importance of stats in play but whatever.

Quote from: jibbajibba;739474I wrote a long post with detail about the odds of 4d6 drp vs 12x3d6 but the laptop crashed...meh

Anyway short version
4d6 drop gives you about 9.4% chance of getting an 18 and a 30% chance of getting at least one 17.

12x3d6 gives you a 5.4% chance of getting an 18 and a 20.1% chance of getting at least one 17.
But 12x 3d6 removes the chance of getting bad stats. So to get at least one stat 8 or less on 12x3d6 is 2.8% where as 4d6 drop gives you 10.5%.

Then I had loads of comments of what this means for actual game balance and the importance of stats in play but whatever.

That doesnt sound right?

On a 4d6h3 system you have a 1.62% chance of getting an 18 per roll and a 4.17% chance of a 17. But only a .08% chance of getting a 3. That comes to something like 2 in 20 characters rolled up will have a 18 (9.72)? Close to 5 in 20 to have a 17(25)? 8 in 20 of a 16(43.5)?

Quote from: Spinachcat;7394343D6 down the line works fine if you use the B/X stats bonuses so 13-15 gives a +1.

It can work, but remember that 6-8 gives a -1, and it's very easy to have more penalties than bonuses. Indeed it's not uncommon to roll a PC with no bonuses and several penalties. I think characters need to have at least a net +0 to be worth playing. My Labyrinth Lord Cleric does ok with +1 STR -1 CHA, even though she considers herself a leader of men, but I would struggle to enjoy playing a character who looks like she should have just stayed home.

Quote from: Marleycat;739471I'M IN.

14
11
16
12
8
17

Without any swap!!! That statline is solid to awesome in every version except 4e. I'm much better with d10's though.... <--->.

Yeah, it works really well as it produces stats about as good as the 4d6 method but with a much lower standard deviation, 18's are still rare, and scores have a minimum of 6.  This way everyone in your group will probably have pretty similar stats and nobody will have some stat at a functionally retarded level.

Quote from: Omega;739491That doesnt sound right?

On a 4d6h3 system you have a 1.62% chance of getting an 18 per roll and a 4.17% chance of a 17. But only a .08% chance of getting a 3. That comes to something like 2 in 20 characters rolled up will have a 18 (9.72)? Close to 5 in 20 to have a 17(25)? 8 in 20 of a 16(43.5)?

no....

With 6 stats the chance of you getting at least one 18 is 1 minus the chance of you getting no 18s.
So .... 1 -(1 -0.0162)^6   = 1- (0.907) = 9.3%

at least one 17 (an 18 is good as well)
1-(1-(0.0417 +0.0162))^6 = 30%

But the chance of you getting an 8 or less on one single roll is a straight up 10.5% whereas the 12 x 3d6 of course would require you to get 7 rolls of 8 or less for you to have to keep an 8 thus the chance is 2.8%.

Quote from: mhensley;739515Yeah, it works really well as it produces stats about as good as the 4d6 method but with a much lower standard deviation, 18's are still rare, and scores have a minimum of 6.  This way everyone in your group will probably have pretty similar stats and nobody will have some stat at a functionally retarded level.

basically the 12 x 3d6 method  means you have a far less chance of low stats but less chance of high stats. The maths is obvious as you have a better chance with each roll on 4d6 drop (as you are dropping the lowest dice each time) but each roll counts whereas with 12 x 3d6 you aren't affecting odds of each roll, still 3d6, but you can the worst 6 rolls.

So in effect 12 x3d6 = very low chance of dangerously low stats but not a lot of supermen.

Scores don't have a minimum of 6 though .... there is a tiny chance you still might roll 7 3s or indeed 12 3s.....

The bonuses and other factors introduced in Greyhawk and AD&D are a nice touch, but aside from the extremes do stats really have much effect in D&D, particularly outside one's prime requisite?

I think having above- or below-average scores in D&D is mostly about character concept, but even a moderate net negative in terms of stat modifiers and other ability-based effects wouldn't make a character unplayable or significantly impede the ability to gain levels. And from a pure effectiveness and survivability standpoint I'd rather have an extra level or two than outstanding stats.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;739213Note that a common misconception is that 3d6 in order is NOT an AD&D method.  I suspect that people who say that was the method used either a) played directly with someone who played OD&D first, or b) is making it up to sound like they have more cred.  I am very dubious that the person ever played AD&D that way because it makes no sense the group would ignore the published methods in favor of one they just made up (if point a is not applicable, then they wouldn't have known about OD&D's method).

Technically, 3d6 is the default, but in practice 4d6 drop the lowest was default because the DMG said not to use 3d6.

DMG p. 11 states:

"While it is possible to generate some fairly playable characters by rolling 3d6, there is often an extended period of attempts at finding a suitable one due to quirks of the dice. . . it is recommended that the following systems be used. Four alternatives are offered for player characters:"

I usually default to Method I – 4d6-drop-lowest and arrange to taste.

For the current OD&D/S&W game I'm running, I use a modified Method III: 3d6 in order with the choice of one, and only one, score swap or reroll.

In our current Basic D&D game, we were given pre-rolled dice, and allowed to assign as desired. The 18 dice were 1x1, 2x2, 3x3, and 4 each of 4-6. As a roleplaying heavy game (i.e. back-stories written before the game etc.), with a few house rules, this worked very well. No one has any particularly cheesy stats, and while things haven't been easy, we do seem pretty competent.

If I were to run a game, I'd go with 3d6 in order, swap any two, reroll all if I think it looks crap.