Quote from: Krimson;961894Some creatures will be more aggressive and some will be less so. Some monsters are stupid eating machines, or mindless undead, and some are more intelligent creatures who have some value to their continued existence. Villains wouldn't be suicidal unless there was something that worried them more. For the most part, the table will be for the first part of the encounter to set the tone. I was going through the RC a bit last night so the Chapter on Evasion might be something to implement as well.

Of course. Roleplaying considerations need to come first. The table is a fallback for when a response isn't obvious. Of course, even stupid eating machines prefer to eat thing that don't hit back. If the players land a few blows on an animalistic predator before running away, there is a good chance it won't be all interested in giving chase unless starving. And, as the B?X rules state, dropping food is a great way to buy time when running from stupid eating machines.

The RC evasion rules seem pretty solid to me. They are a little crunchy, but if you are doing a hex crawl, evasion could be a significant part of the game, making it worth the effort. I might use them in my next game.

I made heavy use of the reaction rules and morale rules in Arrows of Indra, and am doing the same with my upcoming "Lion & Dragon" medieval-authentic OSR game.

Quote from: RPGPundit;962476I made heavy use of the reaction rules and morale rules in Arrows of Indra, and am doing the same with my upcoming "Lion & Dragon" medieval-authentic OSR game.

One of the things that bugs me, Pundit, is that you have three tables which are exactly the same.

Spoiler

It's redundant data. I'm half decent with math but not a mathematician so it will take me a bit of time to work out the absolute probabilities of each outcome. And I'll end up doing that for fun. I like the table. I have used it for decades for more than it was intended. I figure that if I am going to use a table where you can roll 2d6 up to three times, than maybe there should be some variation. I incorporated a little bit of that in my first post, but it would be interesting to add more detail. It would probably have to be in some sort of context to make sense. Looking through the RC it's neat how it can mesh up with the rules for Moral and Evasion.

I am not yet sure how to add more to this in a satisfying way. I could get more recursive and add a level or two. I'd like to add stuff along the lines of "The creature has recently had a good meal, and as such is not interested in you" or "The creature has not eaten in three days and has little interest in pleasantries." If I got really ambitious I could do something for differing levels of Intelligence. Or instead of making more tables I could add Conditional Modifiers.

Quote from: Krimson;962717One of the things that bugs me, Pundit, is that you have three tables which are exactly the same.

Spoiler

It's redundant data.

That's exactly what I changed. If you look at Arrows of Indra you'll see the first view of how I handled that. I've slightly updated that for Lion & Dragon (which hasn't come out yet).

Quote from: RPGPundit;963187That's exactly what I changed. If you look at Arrows of Indra you'll see the first view of how I handled that. I've slightly updated that for Lion & Dragon (which hasn't come out yet).

I'll probably check out the latter. I have seen at least one of your books at Sentry Box so maybe I can see if they can get Hollow Crown in when it's complete.

Quote from: Dumarest;961489What did you gain by changing from 2d6 to 1d20?

There are mechanical things in 5e that are fairly specific to the d20: advantage and disadvantage especially, but also luck rolls, halflings rerolling 1s, and divination wizards replacing d20 rolls with their foretelling rolls. You might want some of those to apply, or not; harder to make them apply if it's not a d20 roll.

Quote from: Omega;961549When I ported it from BX to 5e myself I did the following.

Applicable proficiency add 1/2 the class prof bonus. Round down. This way you still get the bonus, but not at so high a rate. Same with stat bonus, halve it. So a level 10 character with a 20 stat gets a bonus of +4 (2+2) rather than +9. Bards and Rogues are going to be pretty persuasive with their doubled skill bonuses if one happens to be applicable.

The original poster said unmodified d20; my immediate thought was that adding the potentially large ability bonuses would throw it out badly, and this is not a bad solution. (The original D&D reaction allowed +4 for an 18 charisma, but it was pretty hard to get that high compared to later editions, and especially with adding to ability scores every four levels or so.)

My other thought was that it might be better to make it effectively d20-d20 with a contest between ability checks, but that leans toward arguing that the NPCs want a fight (trying to bring the result closer to the hostile reactions) or at least the opposite of what the PCs want, which seems wrong for this chart. So I'd like situational modifiers, in either direction, better than guaranteed bonuses.

Quote from: rawma;963219There are mechanical things in 5e that are fairly specific to the d20: advantage and disadvantage especially, but also luck rolls, halflings rerolling 1s, and divination wizards replacing d20 rolls with their foretelling rolls. You might want some of those to apply, or not; harder to make them apply if it's not a d20 roll.

In this case it's more a familiarity thing. Many newer players are used to d20 being rolled for everything and frankly, even my older players expect it in 5e.

Quote from: rawma;963219The original poster said unmodified d20; my immediate thought was that adding the potentially large ability bonuses would throw it out badly, and this is not a bad solution. (The original D&D reaction allowed +4 for an 18 charisma, but it was pretty hard to get that high compared to later editions, and especially with adding to ability scores every four levels or so.)

When I first mapped it out, I mapped it to a linear 1-30 making the assumption of levels of skill and decent ability scores. That did not work out to my liking. Next I tried a linear 1-24. A little better but it still didn't feel right. It's hard to say about what I am going to do with the d20 chart, because it's an exercise for fun. My previous mulling and feedback makes me inclined to make some sort of 5e tool that also takes into consideration morale and evasion which I mentioned earlier. For the most part, it would be tailored to random encounters, creatures and NPCs and how they react. A group of thieves might run off in different directions, hiding in shadows when they find suitable shadow or cover, because they're working on a scheme and getting killed by adventurers would put a crimp in that. I still have to reread that Evasion chapter in the RC, so that could be applicable as well. There could be more than just attack/leave/friendly. Like what if a beastie isn't really hungry but it decides to chase the party around the dungeon because it's really fun? I remember a 1e game where the DM described a Hellhound as wanting to play. He came home with us and became the best watch dog ever except when he was being a bad dog, rolling around on flammable stuff and the like.

My point is, creatures have their own motives and their own priorities. A predator might not be aggressive if it lives in a biome where it can meet all it's physical needs without too much effort. So if it has a place to sleep, pudgy animals to choose from and clean water assuming it's a carbon based lifeform, then it might not care about beings that carry around pointy things. It could see them as a curiosity, or even identify with them if it feels they too are hunters. On the other end of the spectrum, some animals and monsters may not be evil, but they may well be jerks. Or they might not know what a jerk is, but they do know that bugging the two legged beings with the pointy things is great fun, and some of them don't taste half bad.

Anyhow, sorry for the tangent. Yeah, wanting to use an unmodified d20 with situational modifiers is a consideration because I don't want people using Persuade to walk through every encounter, or Intimidate. This is partly because after you roll the reaction, further attempts at Intimidation or Diplomacy default to RAW. You walk into a magic shop and the Witch with the coin box gives you stink eye because she doesn't like how you look. Now, the bard can step up and try and charm her as he would, but you have an idea what kind of mood the NPC is in which sets the tone for the scene. For me, once I know what kind of mood they are in, it helps me RP that NPC especially if I just made them up right then. That is stuff I have always used the Mentzer table for. In AD&D, if someone tried to be charming then I might roll again with a modifier.

There could be instances where you roll more than once. The guards try and kill you until they find out your names, and then they become fanboys because they've heard of your exploits. I mean, I wouldn't have an entry that says that, I'm just making up stuff to go with the narrative and dice rolls. New information brought to light to the NPC/Monster in my opinion can merit another roll. Sure, as a DM I could arbitrarily decide what mood they are in but where's the fun in that?

Quote from: rawma;963219My other thought was that it might be better to make it effectively d20-d20 with a contest between ability checks, but that leans toward arguing that the NPCs want a fight (trying to bring the result closer to the hostile reactions) or at least the opposite of what the PCs want, which seems wrong for this chart. So I'd like situational modifiers, in either direction, better than guaranteed bonuses.

Just for fun, here's d20-d20 on Anydice. It has a very pretty distribution but I'd never use it. As I mentioned above, attempts at social interaction can be done normally after the initial reaction. Some NPCs will want to fight and in that case you really don't need to roll unless you want to see if they are really into it or just fighting half-assedly. For 5e there would be morale on a different chart. I really have no idea how I'm going to do it yet, or even what I am doing. What will probably happen is that I'll read through the chapters on Morale and Evasion and write a bunch of notes and see how I can have them interact with the framework of the Mentzer chart. But I'd also like to do this in under 24 pages and preferably much less than that. In fact 4-6 pages that could be made into a screen would probably be the way to go.

When you say Guaranteed Bonuses... Yeah... I'm not a fan of the Diplomacy Mind Trick. There might be circumstances were a favorable reaction is almost certain, but I still want a 1 to be a 1 and a 20 to be a 20. 5e doesn't have critical successes or failures RAW for skill checks, but this is not a skill check.

Now... before I forget. Back to when you said d20-d20 it made me think. If I am doing the d20 version primarily for 5e then I could get rid of situational modifiers altogether and just use Advantage and Disadvantage. Possibly maybe even double but I have to reread RAW before I mess around too much. Using a straight d20 roll with Advantage or Disadvantage would be a very clean way to do this, AND add the element of a bell curve to keep some people less grumpy.

Now I do plan on using another version of the Mentzer Chart in an OSRish project. At some point I'll look up Arrows of Indra as he mentioned using it, but I'm not in a hurry because I don't want someone else's Approach affecting my framework. At least, not right away. That game will use it in the 2d6 form, and moreover the redundant recursive tables will have more description and I'll be able to bake it right in, like giving monsters Morale scores and maybe even a Reaction modifier. That part is easier though because it's already been done.

I've used a Mentzer Monster Reaction chart in 5e D&D with 3d6 instead of 2d6. As I allowed characters to add Charisma to the Reaction check, which the modifier could be higher in 5e than Mentzer, a larger range of numbers was needed.

The system worked fine, but requires special rules when circumstances calls for Advantage or Disadvantage.

Quote from: Krimson;963207I'll probably check out the latter. I have seen at least one of your books at Sentry Box so maybe I can see if they can get Hollow Crown in when it's complete.

I see what you did there!

Ironically, considering that it's by far my best-selling book, I don't think Dark Albion has any distribution to gaming stores; though I suppose the Sentry Box could just be getting it from Amazon for completeness' sake or something.

Quote from: RPGPundit;963433I see what you did there!

The best name is still the best name.

Quote from: RPGPundit;963433Ironically, considering that it's by far my best-selling book, I don't think Dark Albion has any distribution to gaming stores; though I suppose the Sentry Box could just be getting it from Amazon for completeness' sake or something.

I'm afraid it's not the one that's there. I'm trying to remember which one I saw. I don't think it was Forward to Adventure. If Dark Albion had been there I would have picked it up on a previous trip.

Probably Arrows of Indra. It's the only one I've seen in game stores myself. Though other people told me they saw Lords of Olympus and Gnomemurdered.

Quote from: RPGPundit;963830Probably Arrows of Indra. It's the only one I've seen in game stores myself. Though other people told me they saw Lords of Olympus and Gnomemurdered.

I'm hoping the fact I didn't see anything with your name on it means that someone picked it up. I know I'm not the only old school gamer in Calgary. Say, have you considered making some of your material available on Lulu? I realize the quality is not as good as having a proper print run, but for people like me in Canada (since they have a facility here), it is an affordable way to get material in print when shipping prices have skyrocketed and when Customs have decided that imposing a levy on books is a nice cash grab. That's how I got Low Fantasy Gaming and Apes Victorious recently. Sure I already bought Dark Albion on OBS but if it was available POD on Lulu I'd buy it again.

So what I am looking at for application of this exercise is two things right now. One for 5e, basically take Chapter 7: Encounters and Evasion from the Rules Cyclopedia and rewrite it for 5e including a list of morale scores for monsters. Two, integrate it as a mechanic for my OSRish thing (because I may use newer mechanics, so the label OSR is tenuous) which will be ridiculous easy because older editions exist, though I still want to expand the chart so that the redundant tables have new information. I'll probably end up saying that over and over so it's probably best I get to work and finish making something.

Quote from: Krimson;963997I'm hoping the fact I didn't see anything with your name on it means that someone picked it up. I know I'm not the only old school gamer in Calgary. Say, have you considered making some of your material available on Lulu? I realize the quality is not as good as having a proper print run, but for people like me in Canada (since they have a facility here), it is an affordable way to get material in print when shipping prices have skyrocketed and when Customs have decided that imposing a levy on books is a nice cash grab. That's how I got Low Fantasy Gaming and Apes Victorious recently. Sure I already bought Dark Albion on OBS but if it was available POD on Lulu I'd buy it again.

So what I am looking at for application of this exercise is two things right now. One for 5e, basically take Chapter 7: Encounters and Evasion from the Rules Cyclopedia and rewrite it for 5e including a list of morale scores for monsters. Two, integrate it as a mechanic for my OSRish thing (because I may use newer mechanics, so the label OSR is tenuous) which will be ridiculous easy because older editions exist, though I still want to expand the chart so that the redundant tables have new information. I'll probably end up saying that over and over so it's probably best I get to work and finish making something.

Dark Albion is available on Lulu. In fact, the Alternate-Cover Dark Albion is ONLY available on Lulu.

Cults of Chaos is also available on Lulu.

As for Calgary, I assume that was the sentry box? That was in fact one of the places where I once saw one of my own books.  I think probably a year after Arrows of Indra came out.

Quote from: RPGPundit;964234Dark Albion is available on Lulu. In fact, the Alternate-Cover Dark Albion is ONLY available on Lulu.

Cults of Chaos is also available on Lulu.

As for Calgary, I assume that was the sentry box? That was in fact one of the places where I once saw one of my own books.  I think probably a year after Arrows of Indra came out.

Yep Sentry Box is the only game store that has endured the decades. Fun fact I have bought all three Doctor Who RPGs there, each time in a different building.

So your stuff is already on Lulu. Well then... Had I known that I wouldn't have bothered with OBS. I guess I have some shopping to do sometime.