Read both games. Go with the one that feels right.

I'm currently reading Worlds Without Number and I'm getting a StarSiege vibe. If you don't know StarSiege, it's Castles & Crusades in Space that for whatever reason, Troll Lords never pushed. Perhaps because in their eagerness to create an everything-scifi game, they instead created a toolkit instead of a game. I haven't yet decided if WWN is a toolkit or a game. SWN, at least 1e, was very much a game of its own with its own implied setting.  Haven't read SWN 2e yet.

I'd love for Troll Lords to revisit StarSiege and give it the love they've given C&C.

I wouldn't  mind a new version of ACKS

Quote from: Spinachcat on December 27, 2021, 03:48:51 AM
Read both games. Go with the one that feels right.

I'm currently reading Worlds Without Number and I'm getting a StarSiege vibe. If you don't know StarSiege, it's Castles & Crusades in Space that for whatever reason, Troll Lords never pushed. Perhaps because in their eagerness to create an everything-scifi game, they instead created a toolkit instead of a game. I haven't yet decided if WWN is a toolkit or a game. SWN, at least 1e, was very much a game of its own with its own implied setting.  Haven't read SWN 2e yet.

I'd love for Troll Lords to revisit StarSiege and give it the love they've given C&C.

Have you seen their version of Starship Warden?  Pretty impressive and you can play it with C&C if you're looking for a "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks" type experience.  They still have Star Siege stuff listed on the website, or you could use amazing adventures.  I've adapted some of the creatures & robots straight from the book for a C&C adventure I wrote.

Quote from: Persimmon on December 27, 2021, 01:27:37 PM

Quote from: Spinachcat on December 27, 2021, 03:48:51 AM
Read both games. Go with the one that feels right.

I'm currently reading Worlds Without Number and I'm getting a StarSiege vibe. If you don't know StarSiege, it's Castles & Crusades in Space that for whatever reason, Troll Lords never pushed. Perhaps because in their eagerness to create an everything-scifi game, they instead created a toolkit instead of a game. I haven't yet decided if WWN is a toolkit or a game. SWN, at least 1e, was very much a game of its own with its own implied setting.  Haven't read SWN 2e yet.

I'd love for Troll Lords to revisit StarSiege and give it the love they've given C&C.

Have you seen their version of Starship Warden?  Pretty impressive and you can play it with C&C if you're looking for a "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks" type experience.  They still have Star Siege stuff listed on the website, or you could use amazing adventures.  I've adapted some of the creatures & robots straight from the book for a C&C adventure I wrote.

I've seen it though I always got the impression that it came off as incomplete. I haven't read it in detail but i got the impression of "how to use amazing adventures to run scifi" than a complete setting

Quote from: Ocule on December 27, 2021, 01:32:45 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on December 27, 2021, 01:27:37 PM

Quote from: Spinachcat on December 27, 2021, 03:48:51 AM
Read both games. Go with the one that feels right.

I'm currently reading Worlds Without Number and I'm getting a StarSiege vibe. If you don't know StarSiege, it's Castles & Crusades in Space that for whatever reason, Troll Lords never pushed. Perhaps because in their eagerness to create an everything-scifi game, they instead created a toolkit instead of a game. I haven't yet decided if WWN is a toolkit or a game. SWN, at least 1e, was very much a game of its own with its own implied setting.  Haven't read SWN 2e yet.

I'd love for Troll Lords to revisit StarSiege and give it the love they've given C&C.

Have you seen their version of Starship Warden?  Pretty impressive and you can play it with C&C if you're looking for a "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks" type experience.  They still have Star Siege stuff listed on the website, or you could use amazing adventures.  I've adapted some of the creatures & robots straight from the book for a C&C adventure I wrote.

I've seen it though I always got the impression that it came off as incomplete. I haven't read it in detail but i got the impression of "how to use amazing adventures to run scifi" than a complete setting

I'm talking about the new 600 page plus supermodule they published earlier this year.  It's basically a sandbox on a massive spaceship.  So the framework is there, but you do what you want.  For an upcoming campaign I'm having the party retrieve part of an artifact from the ship.

Quote from: Persimmon on December 27, 2021, 01:27:37 PM

Quote from: Spinachcat on December 27, 2021, 03:48:51 AM
Read both games. Go with the one that feels right.

I'm currently reading Worlds Without Number and I'm getting a StarSiege vibe. If you don't know StarSiege, it's Castles & Crusades in Space that for whatever reason, Troll Lords never pushed. Perhaps because in their eagerness to create an everything-scifi game, they instead created a toolkit instead of a game. I haven't yet decided if WWN is a toolkit or a game. SWN, at least 1e, was very much a game of its own with its own implied setting.  Haven't read SWN 2e yet.

I'd love for Troll Lords to revisit StarSiege and give it the love they've given C&C.

Have you seen their version of Starship Warden?  Pretty impressive and you can play it with C&C if you're looking for a "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks" type experience.  They still have Star Siege stuff listed on the website, or you could use amazing adventures.  I've adapted some of the creatures & robots straight from the book for a C&C adventure I wrote.

Starship Warden is a really cool book but IMO it's mislabeled as a Siege Engine product as all the stats in the book for everything are Metamorphosis Alpha stats, not Siege Engine stats. Even all the treasure is aimed at MA.

Better to take the Warden and just use it with a different OSR game of your choice, since you have to redo all the stats for everything anyways.

There is a really short ACKS sci-fi document somewhere on the interwebs, but you'd get more out of combining WWN and SWN for Starship Warden.

Not true; you can play it siege engine pretty much as is.  I pulled stuff right from it and dropped it into C&C without conversion, at least for the creatures & robots.

I backed Amazing Adventures 1e and I'm very happy with the game. It's my goto for Raiders of the Lost Ark meets Rocketeer style pulp games.

I'm surprised AA hasn't gotten more love since it plays VERY well at the table. Fans of C&C who want a "modern" game should check it out. You could easily do Steampunk to Cyberpunk with the rules.

Quote from: Ocule on December 25, 2021, 02:34:10 PM
Ran across these gems recently as I was diving into systems that build upon BECMI and they both look awesome. A lot of games focus entirely on a restatement of the original rules or BECMI but reading the design behind things like Castles and Crusades got me thinking to give games a look that would be an evolution of the classic D&D rules.

Any thoughts on these systems? Or any others with a similar approach of not reinventing the wheel but not just reformatting of another game.

Worlds Without Number is awesome.

It is a 5e killer for me. It has a level of simplicity + complexity when needed that just makes it a good fit for new players and veterans alike.

If you want simple, just go with default picks for backgrounds and pick a standard class. If you want detailed complex character building, choose skills based on background, go Adventurer and mix and max your character. The point is Worlds Without Number provides both Basic D&D level simplicity and near Pathfinder level customization in the same game.

The faction system in WWN gives you enough domain level action to make it meaningful but without getting bogged down in spreadsheets. ACKS has a great domain system but it is so detailed that I found the effort / reward ratio to be not worthwhile.

Worlds Without Number also presents a different default setting (which isn't really all that baked in, except for spells) that is interesting and different than standard fantasy fare. The spell system is steeped deep in Dying Earth Vancian spell naming and the feel that creates.

WWN also has a number of small but impactful variations from standard D&D fare. For example, shields on their own grant AC's comparable to armor. So you can recreate your '300' style spartan warriors. Shock damage on miss combined with the right focus choices make fighter types WAY powerful and on par with anything Mages can do. Mages get ultra powerful spells but limited castings (WWN is even more limited than Basic D&D in this regard, so magic users can be uber powerful but don't overshadow other classes).

Experts are awesome. You can play a skill only style character and be balanced against other character types. Unique feature and Origin foci (feats) allow you to adapt to any setting and include different races and ancestries.

WWN just hits all the sweet spots of Role Playing... it has a mechanical depth that can satisfy rules savy players, while also being open enough to allow beginner/casual players to thrive.

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 03:28:46 AM
WWN also has a number of small but impactful variations from standard D&D fare. For example, shields on their own grant AC's comparable to armor. So you can recreate your '300' style spartan warriors. Shock damage on miss combined with the right focus choices make fighter types WAY powerful and on par with anything Mages can do. Mages get ultra powerful spells but limited castings (WWN is even more limited than Basic D&D in this regard, so magic users can be uber powerful but don't overshadow other classes).

I really like WWN but my players had some huge issues with Shock.  They didn't like that it was a melee only thing.

The level 1 fighter of the group had an 18 Str, Stab 1, was using a short sword and had the foci Armsmaster.  That meant he was doing 1d6+4 damage with a Shock 6/15.  So on a successful hit he was dealing out a minimum of 6 damage because you can't do less than your Shock value and 6hp on a miss (vs AC15 or lower).

Meanwhile the Elementalist had to hit to do a minimum of 4 damage (1d6+level+Magic) with his Elemental Blast art. The guy using a bow had the same issue. He had to hit to be useful while the fighter could miss every attack and still kill things fairly easily.

Quote from: rgalex on December 29, 2021, 08:27:22 AM
I really like WWN but my players had some huge issues with Shock.  They didn't like that it was a melee only thing.

The level 1 fighter of the group had an 18 Str, Stab 1, was using a short sword and had the foci Armsmaster.  That meant he was doing 1d6+4 damage with a Shock 6/15.  So on a successful hit he was dealing out a minimum of 6 damage because you can't do less than your Shock value and 6hp on a miss (vs AC15 or lower).

Meanwhile the Elementalist had to hit to do a minimum of 4 damage (1d6+level+Magic) with his Elemental Blast art. The guy using a bow had the same issue. He had to hit to be useful while the fighter could miss every attack and still kill things fairly easily.

Unless I sorely miss my guess; the fact that both of them were using ranged attacks, and would not be in the thick of things like the fighter  did not factor into their calculations...

Quote from: rgalex on December 29, 2021, 08:27:22 AM

Quote from: fixable on December 29, 2021, 03:28:46 AM
WWN also has a number of small but impactful variations from standard D&D fare. For example, shields on their own grant AC's comparable to armor. So you can recreate your '300' style spartan warriors. Shock damage on miss combined with the right focus choices make fighter types WAY powerful and on par with anything Mages can do. Mages get ultra powerful spells but limited castings (WWN is even more limited than Basic D&D in this regard, so magic users can be uber powerful but don't overshadow other classes).

I really like WWN but my players had some huge issues with Shock.  They didn't like that it was a melee only thing.

The level 1 fighter of the group had an 18 Str, Stab 1, was using a short sword and had the foci Armsmaster.  That meant he was doing 1d6+4 damage with a Shock 6/15.  So on a successful hit he was dealing out a minimum of 6 damage because you can't do less than your Shock value and 6hp on a miss (vs AC15 or lower).

Meanwhile the Elementalist had to hit to do a minimum of 4 damage (1d6+level+Magic) with his Elemental Blast art. The guy using a bow had the same issue. He had to hit to be useful while the fighter could miss every attack and still kill things fairly easily.

Shock is a new mechanic that is definitely controversial. I remember the craziness on damage on a miss in early 5e betas, lol. But I don't think it is as big a deal in Worlds Without Number.

Firstly, Shock works both ways. Monsters apply shock as well. So that warrior that is doing 6 shock every round is subjected to shock damage as well. In the long run shock works against PCs.

Secondly, Elemental Blast and bow allows attacks without risk of opposing shock. Elemental Blast also has the added benefit of overcoming 'only hit by magic' as well as the element used can be extremely effective against appropriate foes.

Thirdly, WWN does assume that magic is useful but not the end all be all of power. It is appropriate that a skilled Warrior be flat out superior to a Mage in most situations. In WWN, magic is a tool that is incredibly effective in overcoming specific situations, but it is not a 'cure-all'