Apparently Shannon A. interpreted some letter sent by Macris as a legal threat, and yada yada yada, now ACKS is a banned topic at RPGNet.
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?830945-ACKS-amp-Autarch-Added-to-Forbidden-Topics-List
Hilarious.
But look, a new line in which they can ban someone for "offsite activity"; no doubt now discussion of ACKS, or worse saying anything complimentary about Macris will be judged as justification.
Shannon very rarely comments about the management of TBP, except on various technical (software) issues.
Legal threats to the site have always resulted in permabans.
Quote from: Motorskills;1047587Shannon very rarely comments about the management of TBP, except on various technical (software) issues.
Legal threats to the site have always resulted in permabans.
Permabans are one thing, and Macris caught a couple (for different accounts) in last month's purges ... but a full-on ban of discussion of material he produces? That may be a new one.
Given how riled up people get when the ruleset is mentioned, I'm not terribly surprised. And, people do get a little squirrelly when a lawyer sends them a letter with legalese in it.
It's unfortunate Alex chose to work for Milo, but there it is.
Now it's starting to sound like they're pulling back (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?830945-ACKS-amp-Autarch-Added-to-Forbidden-Topics-List&p=21985737#post21985737).
Quote from: Motorskills;1047587Shannon very rarely comments about the management of TBP, except on various technical (software) issues.
Legal threats to the site have always resulted in permabans.
If it was about "legal threats" what was the need for the "he's a nazi supporter too" links?
Quote from: Ras Algethi;1047591If it was about "legal threats" what was the need for the "he's a nazi supporter too" links?
Alex worked for Milo, who is at best controversial, at worst a shit-stain.
This caused strife when Alex's game was mentioned.
Alex was banned because of the association with Milo and the strife.
Alex, a lawyer, emailed Shannon some legalese.
Shannon decided that, as an employee of Skotos, he had to squelch discussion of the game to manage legal risk.
(As I understand things)
This all sounds stupid on all fronts, and like a typical TBP shit storm.
But I am surprised to hear ACKS was written by someone who worked for Milo whats-his-face. What the hell is that all about? No wonder a slice of the roleplaying game community thinks the OSR is full of alt-right fuck wits. It only takes one or two prominent people like that to catch your attention.
Alex was CEO for Milo, Inc., apparently, for a couple of years until it went bankrupt.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1047590Now it's starting to sound like they're pulling back (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?830945-ACKS-amp-Autarch-Added-to-Forbidden-Topics-List&p=21985737#post21985737).
No, they're not pulling back from banning discussions of ACKS. They're just pulling back from advertising that they're banning ACKS discussions.
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1047582Apparently Shannon A. interpreted some letter sent by Macris as a legal threat, and yada yada yada, now ACKS is a banned topic at RPGNet.
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?830945-ACKS-amp-Autarch-Added-to-Forbidden-Topics-List
I have to say, the image of Macris doing a Gawker on rpgnet did bring on the warm & fuzzies. :D
Fuck me, there is just an all-out explosion of stupid happening today on tBP.
Because it would have been so hard to just ban political threadcrapping in discussions about the game.
Quote from: jeff37923;1047605Fuck me, there is just an all-out explosion of stupid happening today on tBP.
Making today different from the other 364 days of the year, how? :rolleyes:
Threatening legal action has been a banable offense since the Pultny Plastic Collective incident where a user (Ross N IRRC) created a sock puppet who was supposedly a porn star and sent people pictures by PM. Anyhow, given that the threat is about defamation, I can see banning discussion of their products as somewhat reasonable. It makes me wonder why they haven't banned discussion of Palladium's products years ago, but perhaps Kevin hasn't heard that people discuss his games on rpgnet and thus hasn't sent a C&D letter.
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1047582Apparently Shannon A. interpreted some letter sent by Macris as a legal threat, and yada yada yada, now ACKS is a banned topic at RPGNet.
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?830945-ACKS-amp-Autarch-Added-to-Forbidden-Topics-List
QuoteThere's at least one ACKS PbP game going on the site currently.
Soon, RPGs will be a forbidden topic.
(http://www.eslahoradelastortas.com/blog/media/2016/09/junjiito2.jpg)
Quote from: David Johansen;1047624Threatening legal action has been a banable offense since the Pultny Plastic Collective incident where a user (Ross N IRRC) created a sock puppet who was supposedly a porn star and sent people pictures by PM. Anyhow, given that the threat is about defamation, I can see banning discussion of their products as somewhat reasonable. It makes me wonder why they haven't banned discussion of Palladium's products years ago, but perhaps Kevin hasn't heard that people discuss his games on rpgnet and thus hasn't sent a C&D letter.
Maybe. But I'm sure this wouldn't have happened if they hadn't allowed people to threadcrap* over threads where people just wanted to discuss or find out about the game.
(*In fact IIRC they encouraged it by threadbanning people who actually tried to call out the threadcrapping).
The worst thing about TBP may just be the boot-licking posts from the peons on Trouble Tickets threads telling mods how amazing they are.
Quote from: Franky;1047619Making today different from the other 364 days of the year, how? :rolleyes:
Normally, it is just stupid. This is an example of an all-out explosion of stupid. A higher level of stupid. An increase in magnitude of stupid. Stupid with not just height and width, but depth (and digging deeper).
Quote from: The_Shadow;1047630The worst thing about TBP may just be the boot-licking posts from the peons on Trouble Tickets threads telling mods how amazing they are.
Right? I understand and loathe brown nosing in real world scenarios but what exactly do you get for ass sniffing in the virtual world on a forum about make believe games?
If they think Macris' letters were a legal threat, wait until they cross someone living in a jurisdiction where defamation is a criminal offense.
Quote from: TJS;1047618Because it would have been so hard to just ban political threadcrapping in discussions about the game.
It was against the rules before the recent rules changes(which are being rolled out in bits and pieces instead of as a whole because . . . ???), but who knows now.
Quote from: The_Shadow;1047630The worst thing about TBP may just be the boot-licking posts from the peons on Trouble Tickets threads telling mods how amazing they are.
That's definitely dumb. But the part I find the worst is all of the "our job is so hard/stressful/time-consuming" posts made
by the mods themselves. I was once a moderator(left on good terms) at a large, non-gaming forum. As membership grew, and/or subforums were added, we
added more mods. Not everyone we asked wanted the "job," but we always had a sizable list of posters in good standing who were known to meaningfully contribute to discussions that we kept in consideration for modship, just in case. And enough agreed that each moderator's individual "work" load was perhaps a few minutes a day except in certain
rare circumstances. It's not rocket science.
Well, it seems that they've done an unannounced ban of sorts of my products too, given that a review of Lion & Dragon was submitted to the site but never published (presumably because it was too favorable and didn't talk about how I'm Evil Incarnate).
Yeah, it's like they just shut down threads will nilly cos it's their site.
What a shitty thing to do.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1047653Well, it seems that they've done an unannounced ban of sorts of my products too, given that a review of Lion & Dragon was submitted to the site but never published (presumably because it was too favorable and didn't talk about how I'm Evil Incarnate).
Another one or that one from a few months ago? Ive lost track.
Quote from: The_Shadow;1047630The worst thing about TBP may just be the boot-licking posts from the peons on Trouble Tickets threads telling mods how amazing they are.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one. It's nauseating.
RPG Site peoples -
What I sent to RPG.net was a polite letter complaining that an official moderator was calling me a "Neo-Nazi" and urging people not to buy my game. I said that this was defamation and was causing harm to both me and to my co-writers who were being accused of collaborating with Nazis. I explained that I was not any type of Nazi and that I was an Ayn Rand libertarian. I pointed out that my co-writers included a black Hispanic vet married to an Asian immigrant and an Israeli disabled with PTSD, so their behavior was literally harming the very people they claimed to defend. I then asked them to remove the post and stop lying about me.
That's it. No deadlines, no threat of legal action, no threats to call my lawyers. I stated the facts and asked for post to be removed. And after RPG.net's new policy was put in place, I emailed Shannon to say I thought it was a fair solution and that I simply wanted to live and let live. I got a polite response back agreeing to that.
I also didn't work for Milo for "years" or "until the company went bankrupt". I worked as CEO from May 1 2017 to April 30 2018; I resigned when my one-year employment agreement ended in order to work on Autarch full-time. As far as I know, Milo is not bankrupt. Before Milo I worked as SVP of Defy Media from 2012 to 2017 (5 years) and before that I worked as CEO of Themis Media from 2000 to 2012 (12 years). I co-founded Autarch in 2010 while I was at Themis Media (owner/publisher of Escapist).
Any other questions you'd like to ask, I will do my best to answer. Keep in mind that like all ex-executives these days I am bound by confidentiality and non-disparagement.
Alexander Macris
Thanks for taking the time.
Sites a joke.
I had the temerity to suggest they ban talk of politics not games in the gaming forum, a point I made in their TT thread, and a mod jumped on me like a member of some secret police force.
I'm just glad there's a forum you can actually talk about *games without worrying about bloody politics.
Quote from: HorusArisen;1047745I had the temerity to suggest they ban talk of politics not games in the gaming forum, a point I made in their TT thread, and a mod jumped on me like a member of some secret police force.
Those mods are hilarious.
DISSENTER! Begone!The sooner TBP bans everyone that isn't part of their cult the better. This place (if you can avoid the crazies), rpgpub, and various Discords all have better gaming discussion these days.
Quote from: under_score;1047752Those mods are hilarious. DISSENTER! Begone!
The sooner TBP bans everyone that isn't part of their cult the better. This place (if you can avoid the crazies), rpgpub, and various Discords all have better gaming discussion these days.
RPGpub, game specific forums (mostly) and discord are the only places I can seem to get unsullied game conversation these days.
Discussing grey (not purple) worms?
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1047754Discussing grey (not purple) worms?
????
Quote from: under_score;1047752This place (if you can avoid the crazies)
Where's the fun in that?
Quote from: HorusArisen;1047755????
Greyworm the Unsullied
What does TBP stand for? Is it a parody-acronym for RPG.net that stands for something like "The Ban Planet"? (That's my best guess at this point.)
Well thank you RPG net, I was not aware of AKCS until now, looks interesting.
Quote from: Skarg;1047759What does TBP stand for? Is it a parody-acronym for RPG.net that stands for something like "The Ban Planet"? (That's my best guess at this point.)
I believe it stands for the "The Big Purple" based on the purple theme of the site.
Quote from: Toadmaster;1047760Well thank you RPG net, I was not aware of AKCS until now, looks interesting.
You, sir, have made my day.
Ah :p
Quote from: amacris;1047762You, sir, have made my day.
I'm not an OSR fan but I sodding bought it just because I'll support any game someone tries to suppress because they don't like the author, I genuinely don't give a shit about your politics, you produce quality material that isn't offensive for the sake of it you shouldn't be getting excluded from a gaming forum.
Quote from: Toadmaster;1047760Well thank you RPG net, I was not aware of AKCS until now, looks interesting.
It's an excellent take on B/X D&D that expands classes, spells, domain management, etc. There's been a recent kickstarter finishing up with an associated set of mechanics. (I've received mine, but haven't looked through them.) It was one of the real "games of the month" for several months at rpg.net a few years back. All the OSR love seems to have dried up there with 5e so it wasn't getting much lover recently.
I highly recommend checking it out. I ran a pbp game of B/X there and incorporated several ideas form ACKS into that game with great success.
Quote from: RMS;1047773It's an excellent take on B/X D&D that expands classes, spells, domain management, etc. There's been a recent kickstarter finishing up with an associated set of mechanics. (I've received mine, but haven't looked through them.) It was one of the real "games of the month" for several months at rpg.net a few years back. All the OSR love seems to have dried up there with 5e so it wasn't getting much lover recently.
I highly recommend checking it out. I ran a pbp game of B/X there and incorporated several ideas form ACKS into that game with great success.
Thank you for the kind words! That's a very apt description. We just finished up our "Heroic Fantasy" supplement that attempts to better emulate heroic fantasy fiction, and right now we have a new kickstarter going for a megadungeon called Secrets of the Nethercity. I'm offering a free sample of Area 10 for anyone who wants to try before they buy.
If you'd like some very well thought-out mass combat rules that will work with any OD&D-compatible system, I'd recommend Domains@War. It covers sieges, campaigning, battles, skirmishes, the lot.
Quote from: amacris;1047762You, sir, have made my day.
It looks like an interesting game and as is often the case, boycotts often raise the visibility of the product they try to hurt.
Quote from: RMS;1047773It's an excellent take on B/X D&D that expands classes, spells, domain management, etc. There's been a recent kickstarter finishing up with an associated set of mechanics. (I've received mine, but haven't looked through them.) It was one of the real "games of the month" for several months at rpg.net a few years back. All the OSR love seems to have dried up there with 5e so it wasn't getting much lover recently.
I highly recommend checking it out. I ran a pbp game of B/X there and incorporated several ideas form ACKS into that game with great success.
I'm not a huge D&D fan, but it looks like an interesting take on the system. I'm assuming from the description that it has a fair bit of influence from Sword and Sorcery literature. The title seems to be a very thinly veiled reference to Conan and Kull.
Quote from: HorusArisen;1047745Sites a joke.
I had the temerity to suggest they ban talk of politics not games in the gaming forum, a point I made in their TT thread, and a mod jumped on me like a member of some secret police force.
I'm just glad there's a forum you can actually talk about *games without worrying about bloody politics.
I remember when political talk in open was swept over to Tangency, with that being the posted rule. Slowly and then suddenly, the rule was ignored. Between there, I mentioned the rule in a thread that was deliberately being derailed. Oof! The response was quite *ahem* interesting, where mods violated other rules to ensure that I wouldn't make that mistake again. That's when I knew that it was only a matter of time.
Quote from: amacris;1047740Any other questions you'd like to ask, I will do my best to answer. Keep in mind that like all ex-executives these days I am bound by confidentiality and non-disparagement.
Alexander Macris
if we all buy copies of your game would you PLEASE pull a Gawker on rpg.net? :D
Quote from: Toadmaster;1047777I'm not a huge D&D fan, but it looks like an interesting take on the system. I'm assuming from the description that it has a fair bit of influence from Sword and Sorcery literature. The title seems to be a very thinly veiled reference to Conan and Kull.
Early D&D was heavily influenced by Sword & Sorcery also, and we saw it as the main influence with some Tolkienisms tossed in - which retrospectively appears to be exactly what Gygax was doing. However, a lot of other people see early D&D as being all about high fantasy.
ACKS is no more, nor less, S&S than OD&D and B/X D&D. It has the classic races (no [strike]hobbits[/strike] halflings). It has a common houserule for magic incorporated, which I approve of - basically what 5e (finally) implemented in D&D. ACKS explands race-as-class, so you get several classes for each race to choose from. It adds a skill-like system to give players a little more options. It's most famous for greatly expanding the domain management - so called, "end game" of early D&D and making it very central to play. That's where characters build castles, attract followers and peasants/workers, exploit resources, etc. to carve a niche out of the wilderness for themselves. ACKS puts a lot of energy into that and everyone who has played it has excellent things to say about it.
Basically, if you want B/X D&D (Moldvay/Cook) but want a few more class options, a skill/ability option, and more detail for domain management, it's perfect for you. It doesn't vary too far from the baseline game conceptually.
Quote from: amacris;1047740Any other questions you'd like to ask, I will do my best to answer. Keep in mind that like all ex-executives these days I am bound by confidentiality and non-disparagement.
I don't have a question, I just wanted to pop in and thank you for making my favorite RPG. Keep kicking ass out there
Quote from: RMS;1047786Early D&D was heavily influenced by Sword & Sorcery also, and we saw it as the main influence with some Tolkienisms tossed in - which retrospectively appears to be exactly what Gygax was doing. However, a lot of other people see early D&D as being all about high fantasy.
ACKS is no more, nor less, S&S than OD&D and B/X D&D. It has the classic races (no [strike]hobbits[/strike] halflings). It has a common houserule for magic incorporated, which I approve of - basically what 5e (finally) implemented in D&D. ACKS explands race-as-class, so you get several classes for each race to choose from. It adds a skill-like system to give players a little more options. It's most famous for greatly expanding the domain management - so called, "end game" of early D&D and making it very central to play. That's where characters build castles, attract followers and peasants/workers, exploit resources, etc. to carve a niche out of the wilderness for themselves. ACKS puts a lot of energy into that and everyone who has played it has excellent things to say about it.
Basically, if you want B/X D&D (Moldvay/Cook) but want a few more class options, a skill/ability option, and more detail for domain management, it's perfect for you. It doesn't vary too far from the baseline game conceptually.
That's a great summary! I'd add that fighters gain a damage bonus that scales with level and the ability to cleave each time they kill a target. High level fighters can mow down minions in glorious style. That's a big change from B/X.
In the expansions:
- ACKS Player's Companion adds rules for custom-designed classes and custom-designed spells (like a point build system for both)
- ACKS Domains at War adds both an abstract and a Warhammer/Battelore-type mass combat system plus various rules for supplies, logistics, sieges, and so on
- ACKS Lairs & Encounters adds rules for custom-designed monsters, monster training, leveling monsters, monstrous ability scores, and various info on monster parts, lair frequency, etc.
- ACKS Heroic Companion adds rules for eldritch magic (a blend of arcane & divine that causes corruption), spellsinging (think Luthien in Silmarillion), and ceremonial magic (Thoth-Amon/Lovecraft stuff)
- ACKS Barbarian Conquerors adds rules for sword-and-planet technology research and discovery and a host of playable "alien" races (bugmen, geckomen, visitors, etc)
Quote from: remial;1047783if we all buy copies of your game would you PLEASE pull a Gawker on rpg.net? :D
My policy is live and let live. Perhaps if they leak my halfling sex tape.
Quote from: Azraele;1047787I don't have a question, I just wanted to pop in and thank you for making my favorite RPG. Keep kicking ass out there
Thank you for the kind words!!
I've been looking for a good domain management system that I could drop into my games. Would people recommend ACKS's domain system, or is there other decent options that could work?
Quote from: HorusArisen;1047766I'm not an OSR fan but I sodding bought it just because I'll support any game someone tries to suppress because they don't like the author, I genuinely don't give a shit about your politics, you produce quality material that isn't offensive for the sake of it you shouldn't be getting excluded from a gaming forum.
Yeah, I bought ACKS and Domains at War partly because They didn't want me to. Plus they're pretty decent - I'm running 5e and S&W currently but ACKS has plenty of bits worth borrowing.
Quote from: Broken Twin;1047791I've been looking for a good domain management system that I could drop into my games. Would people recommend ACKS's domain system, or is there other decent options that could work?
I've successfully slotted it into similar D&D systems; like, my one campaign of 5th used the rules with minimal hacking.
It's got a strong tie to "gold as xp"; the idea being you adventure to acquire gold, and in so doing you acquire power and land. You then use the gold to construct a fort in the wilderlands and set up a little kingdom. Late game is then expanding and empowering your kingdom.
It's beautifully designed for what it's trying to do: namely, realize the "Arnesonian dream" of late-level characters conquering and shaping the setting in OD&D.
Be warned; I tried to lift the system into 5th ed, and found it so overwhelming fun and useful that I just started running ACKS exclusively directly thereafter. It really is a thing of beauty.
Quote from: S'mon;1047792Yeah, I bought ACKS and Domains at War partly because They didn't want me to. Plus they're pretty decent - I'm running 5e and S&W currently but ACKS has plenty of bits worth borrowing.
I'll have a flick through but it'll never use it.
Quote from: HorusArisen;1047794I'll have a flick through but it'll never use it.
You know I picked it up with that exact same idea?
One day I was between campaigns and was just like "You know, let's roll up characters for a lark!"
It turns out that this act is like picking up the original Legend of Zelda for the NES: I always start playing like "Oh I've got a few minutes to kill" and then
bang it's the next day and I'm balls-deep in Gannon's castle, fighting a flying eyeball so I can get the blue suit
Quote from: Toadmaster;1047760Well thank you RPG net, I was not aware of AKCS until now, looks interesting.
Yeah, I was on the fence about getting it just for source material...but now I reckon I'll be buying it for this alone.
Quote from: Azraele;1047793I've successfully slotted it into similar D&D systems; like, my one campaign of 5th used the rules with minimal hacking.
It's got a strong tie to "gold as xp"; the idea being you adventure to acquire gold, and in so doing you acquire power and land. You then use the gold to construct a fort in the wilderlands and set up a little kingdom. Late game is then expanding and empowering your kingdom.
It's beautifully designed for what it's trying to do: namely, realize the "Arnesonian dream" of late-level characters conquering and shaping the setting in OD&D.
Be warned; I tried to lift the system into 5th ed, and found it so overwhelming fun and useful that I just started running ACKS exclusively directly thereafter. It really is a thing of beauty.
Agreed. My impression - it's very similar to the BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia system, a bit more involved. It's very 'steak & potatoes', I like it a lot better than other OSR, 3e etc systems that try to get tricksy and lose sight of the need for the domain system to support, not replace, regular play.
Quote from: amacris;1047775Thank you for the kind words! That's a very apt description. We just finished up our "Heroic Fantasy" supplement that attempts to better emulate heroic fantasy fiction, and right now we have a new kickstarter going for a megadungeon called Secrets of the Nethercity. I'm offering a free sample of Area 10 for anyone who wants to try before they buy.
I'm glad this silliness occurred, because I didn't know about the KS. Just pledged and looking forward to it!
Any chance of you guys doing an off set printing of the core book?
A domain system that supports, not replaces, the system it's inside is what I'm looking for. I'm not actually overly interested in traditional OSR, but if ACKS has a solid domain system, I might just pick it up and take a look.
Quote from: Broken Twin;1047803A domain system that supports, not replaces, the system it's inside is what I'm looking for. I'm not actually overly interested in traditional OSR, but if ACKS has a solid domain system, I might just pick it up and take a look.
I've ran two relatively long campaigns with it so far; you're playing a very solid version of BECMI even when you're managing your empire. My players never stopped dungeon plundering, even when they had to sneak out and leave their crowns in the hands of scheming regents
My interest in ACKS was purely for the Domain rules.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1047811My interest in ACKS was purely for the Domain rules.
Ditto.
Quote from: Azraele;1047795You know I picked it up with that exact same idea?
One day I was between campaigns and was just like "You know, let's roll up characters for a lark!"
It turns out that this act is like picking up the original Legend of Zelda for the NES: I always start playing like "Oh I've got a few minutes to kill" and then bang it's the next day and I'm balls-deep in Gannon's castle, fighting a flying eyeball so I can get the blue suit
I loath the system it's based on so this won't happen.
Quote from: Lurtch;1047802Any chance of you guys doing an off set printing of the core book?
Lurtch, there is such a book available me. It's hardcover, offset printing, stitched (not glued) binding, matte cover - it was our Second Printing / bestseller edition. I have inventory on hand - email me at orders@autarch.co.
ACKS has been on my short list for some time now. I've avoided getting it so far, because I really didn't have time to incorporate domains into my 5E campaigns. However, it's been slowly building, as that is where the players interest seems to have drifted. This latest little TBP fiasco has moved ACKS up the list. I think it will be on my Christmas list this year. :)
Quote from: HorusArisen;1047745I had the temerity to suggest they ban talk of politics not games in the gaming forum, a point I made in their TT thread, and a mod jumped on me like a member of some secret police force.
Up until recently, Boardgamegeek had a policy of punting all political discussion on game forums to the political forum. Worked well to keep BGG a reasonably healthy place focused on gaming.
Something changed in the last year or so, because the mods have pretty much abandoned that policy. The SJWs who want to stir up culture warz have been whining incessantly that not being able to 'discuss problematic issues' in the gaming forums is an endorsement of the toxic patriarchal culture of tabletop games. So the mods started allowing ideological crusades to stay in game forums. Now, they've gone further and essentially declared some POVs in these political debates as invalid and unwelcome.
In nutshell, bringing social justice culture wars to boardgame discussions is now not only welcome, but there's only one valid point of view in those discussions. It's so dismaying to see the takeover happening in real time. And as I noted in the other thread, BGG is a way, way more popular forum than RPGnet.
Quote from: kreegan;1047800I'm glad this silliness occurred, because I didn't know about the KS. Just pledged and looking forward to it!
That's awesome, thank you!
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1047825ACKS has been on my short list for some time now. I've avoided getting it so far, because I really didn't have time to incorporate domains into my 5E campaigns. However, it's been slowly building, as that is where the players interest seems to have drifted. This latest little TBP fiasco has moved ACKS up the list. I think it will be on my Christmas list this year. :)
I hope you dig it when you do. Cheers!
Quote from: ShannonAI have at this point twice received emails from Alexander Macris, the designer of ACKS and the owner of Autarch, that I personally took as legal threats because of his status as a lawyer and the language he used, which included words like "defamation" and "reputational harm". The posts that Macris was responding to were made by RPGnet volunteers who were acting in their personal capacity as regular posters to this board; they offered their personal opinions on Macris' political allegiances primarily based on his association with Milo Yiannopoulos and used that to suggest that gamers shouldn't support Macris' roleplaying concerns.
First he's very careful not to call it a legal threat outright, only that he
felt it was. Then he claims RPG.NET volunteers (ie, mods) do not represent RPG.NET. Well nobody can argue with the first, but the ship has definitely sailed on the latter, especially with the off site monitoring, and RPG.NET mods
do represent RPG.NET in a legally actionable way. And if they don't, then nobody can claim that anyone is responsible for the actions of their followers either, which would
also be a win.
Quote from: ShannonASo, what type of words are you allowed to use to discuss someone who took a professional position where he actively enabled someone who engages in that sort of behavior? Can you say that he shares in those same attitudes or not? What is fact, what is reasonable opinion, and what might actually meet the very, very high standard required for "defamation"?
Calling someone a Neo-Nazi in an attempt to cause financial harm.
Quote from: ShannonASo I'm asking the admins to add both ACKS and Autarch (and by extension Macris) to the forbidden topics list on this site...
Which is unnecessary as there's already a rule against attacking designers. The only reason it's being done is to cause financial harm.
Quote from: ShannonA...alongside the Westborough Church and whatever else is on there right now.
Which is an unnecessary addendum.
Quote from: amacris;1047740I stated the facts and asked for post to be removed.
Was it?
Also, would you be willing to share the emails you sent Shannon, or ask him to publicly share your discussion?
Quote from: Haffrung;1047828Up until recently, Boardgamegeek had a policy of punting all political discussion on game forums to the political forum. Worked well to keep BGG a reasonably healthy place focused on gaming.
Something changed in the last year or so, because the mods have pretty much abandoned that policy. The SJWs who want to stir up culture warz have been whining incessantly that not being able to 'discuss problematic issues' in the gaming forums is an endorsement of the toxic patriarchal culture of tabletop games. So the mods started allowing ideological crusades to stay in game forums. Now, they've gone further and essentially declared some POVs in these political debates as invalid and unwelcome.
This is the exact same process the SJWs used to take over EN World, and RPGnet before that. They do it every time. Once you give them an inch they will take everything and turn your website, magazine, corporation, charity etc into a cesspool.
Quote from: HorusArisen;1047817I loath the system it's based on so this won't happen.
I can respect that. Mostly because it's also how I felt before playing it XD
But seriously, there's a lot to love. Even taken alone, the domain management is great.
Quote from: Azraele;1047865I can respect that. Mostly because it's also how I felt before playing it XD
But seriously, there's a lot to love. Even taken alone, the domain management is great.
I'm sure it's great if you like the class, skill, magic, race, stats....etc systems.
Happy to have spent the £15 to get the PDFs to support a designer but still hate the engine.
Quote from: HorusArisen;1047879I'm sure it's great if you like the class, skill, magic, race, stats....etc systems.
Happy to have spent the £15 to get the PDFs to support a designer but still hate the engine.
Have you actually looked at the domain management rules? I mean all the stuff on modelling an economy and the structure of the society that all that implies in Chapter 10, not the character-related stuff you're talking about.
Quote from: Kiero;1047880Have you actually looked at the domain management rules? I mean all the stuff on modelling an economy and the structure of the society that all that implies, not the character-related stuff you're talking about.
Well no I've only just bought it. Can it be completely and utterly divorced from the underlying D&D/D20 engine?
Quote from: HorusArisen;1047883Well no I've only just bought it. Can it be completely and utterly divorced from the underlying D&D/D20 engine?
As long as you come up with an exchange rate from "gold pieces", yes.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with the D20 system either. It's based on B/X D&D.
Quote from: Kiero;1047885As long as you come up with an exchange rate from "gold pieces", yes.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with the D20 system either. It's based on B/X D&D.
Which is the D20 systems ancestor. Nah thanks.
I'll have a nose at the domain stuff though and see if it's better than RQ Empire.
Quote from: HorusArisen;1047886Which is the D20 systems ancestor. Nah thanks.
I'll have a nose at the domain stuff though and see if it's better than RQ Empire.
Either way, the domain management stuff has very little about it that's system-specific, barring the use of "gold pieces" as the measurement of currency.
Here's a worked example of that economic modelling (http://www.autarch.co/forums/general-discussion/worldbuilding-modelling-places-which-are-built-completely-different) I went through for my historical game using ACKS. I started out from some very different assumptions about how the economy would be structured, since it wasn't medieval-feudal.
Quote from: Kiero;1047888Either way, the domain management stuff has very little about it that's system-specific, barring the use of "gold pieces" as the measurement of currency.
Here's a worked example of that economic modelling (http://www.autarch.co/forums/general-discussion/worldbuilding-modelling-places-which-are-built-completely-different) I went through for my historical game using ACKS. I started out from some very different assumptions about how the economy would be structured, since it wasn't medieval-feudal.
I'll definitely check it out. I'd prefer to get use out of something I've bought.
Quote from: S'mon;1047864This is the exact same process the SJWs used to take over EN World, and RPGnet before that. They do it every time. Once you give them an inch they will take everything and turn your website, magazine, corporation, charity etc into a cesspool.
The tthing about BGG is that if you see the 'likes' on the various threads, it would seem that the user base largely is sjw. Anyone who doesn't toe a certain line seems to get downvoted or just not upvoted as much. I don't know if the fact that upvotes aren't anonymous factors into that in light of how the site is moderated as of late.
Quote from: HorusArisen;1047886Which is the D20 systems ancestor. Nah thanks.
Not really. The D20 system, with its Attribute Bonus + Skill Bonus + d20 versus a target number, doesn't exist in B/X at all.
Quote from: Kiero;1047885As long as you come up with an exchange rate from "gold pieces", yes.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with the D20 system either. It's based on B/X D&D.
Axioms #3 goes into the details of the why's of the economics. From there it is easy to see how to plug in your own value. A simplication is that you can think of every thing as being a multiple of the value of a bushel of wheat.
Quote from: Baulderstone;1047913Not really. The D20 system, with its Attribute Bonus + Skill Bonus + d20 versus a target number, doesn't exist in B/X at all.
I'll agree to disagree on this, wasted way too much airtime on the system already.
Quote from: Haffrung;1047828Up until recently, Boardgamegeek had a policy of punting all political discussion on game forums to the political forum. Worked well to keep BGG a reasonably healthy place focused on gaming.
Something changed in the last year or so, because the mods have pretty much abandoned that policy.
And as I noted in the other thread, BGG is a way, way more popular forum than RPGnet.
1:Yeah its bleeding into more and more threads. This was very not the case before.
2: Theres the posted policy and theres the one the mods have been following in the shadows for years now. Its just starting to show more and more.
3: I was rather surprised to see the local boardgamers have a REALLY low opinion of BGG and this was before the SJW creeping in.
Quote from: ShannonA"...alongside the Westborough Church and whatever else is on there right now"
Predictable.
They've got a go-to list of terms that amount to ideological '
heresy ', and given the time, you'll be branded with all of the labels.
They call people reincarnated 1940s era German supremacist (muh natzi) religious zealots (muh westborough), flat out, but '
interpret ' "enough!" as a threat.
Its all the same with
these people, they go about painting bulls-eye on people but screech '
I'm being attacked ' just for calling them on their bullshit.
I dont give two dusty f**ks about what happens to people that have frenzied one another into either/or '
good' (us) vs '
EVIL' ideological head-hunters.
The gauntlet has been cast, and they've made it clear that the terms are "us or deserving of any ill"
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1047853First he's very careful not to call it a legal threat outright, only that he felt it was. Then he claims RPG.NET volunteers (ie, mods) do not represent RPG.NET. Well nobody can argue with the first, but the ship has definitely sailed on the latter, especially with the off site monitoring, and RPG.NET mods do represent RPG.NET in a legally actionable way. And if they don't, then nobody can claim that anyone is responsible for the actions of their followers either, which would also be a win.
Calling someone a Neo-Nazi in an attempt to cause financial harm.
Which is unnecessary as there's already a rule against attacking designers. The only reason it's being done is to cause financial harm.
Which is an unnecessary addendum.
Was it?
Also, would you be willing to share the emails you sent Shannon, or ask him to publicly share your discussion?
Your assessment of the situation mirrors my own. That said, the post was removed, yes, and further discussion blocked, so at this point I do not want to re-open the situation. Magnanimity and all that.
Quote from: estar;1047917Axioms #3 goes into the details of the why's of the economics. From there it is easy to see how to plug in your own value. A simplication is that you can think of every thing as being a multiple of the value of a bushel of wheat.
Yeah, I mean ultimately it doesn't matter what that exchange rate or equivalent is, the structure of the economics is sound.
Quote from: amacris;1047938Your assessment of the situation mirrors my own. That said, the post was removed, yes, and further discussion blocked, so at this point I do not want to re-open the situation. Magnanimity and all that.
Well, except the further discussion where yesterday afternoon a mod said "The moral of the story is not to carry water for white supremacists and then repeatedly threaten to sue the board." (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?830945-ACKS-amp-Autarch-Added-to-Forbidden-Topics-List/page4)
So, you know, discussion is banned except for mods and admins who get to keep pounding on the drum.
Quote from: rgalex;1047950Well, except the further discussion where yesterday afternoon a mod said "The moral of the story is not to carry water for white supremacists and then repeatedly threaten to sue the board." (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?830945-ACKS-amp-Autarch-Added-to-Forbidden-Topics-List/page4)
So, you know, discussion is banned except for mods and admins who get to keep pounding on the drum.
I reported that post. As with other reports I've sent, it was neither addressed nor resolved
Hey Alex, any chance you could get an ACKS bundle going on Rpgnow? I've been kicking myself for missing the bundle of holding a year ago, but would like to go "all in" on the system.
I actually have very little experience with B/X. I played a handful of games a million years ago, but the vast majority was AD&D / 2E.
Is the magic system in still a vancian style, x# of spells per day kind of thing?
I realize S&S was an influence on D&D, but standard D&D has a much greater amount of magic / funky critters than found in the typical S&S literature. The magic system with fireball throwing mages is typically where I find D&D most notably drifts from classic S&S.
Quote from: rgalex;1047950Well, except the further discussion where yesterday afternoon a mod said "The moral of the story is not to carry water for white supremacists and then repeatedly threaten to sue the board." (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?830945-ACKS-amp-Autarch-Added-to-Forbidden-Topics-List/page4)
So, you know, discussion is banned except for mods and admins who get to keep pounding on the drum.
Typical of the mods there. That is the only site I've dealt with where mods are allowed to make snarky comments when moderating a post.
Quote from: Toadmaster;1047955I actually have very little experience with B/X. I played a handful of games a million years ago, but the vast majority was AD&D / 2E.
Is the magic system in still a vancian style, x# of spells per day kind of thing?
ACKS is bascially 90% B/X with the Domain system from Companion and some of the economic stuff (and skills) from the Gazetteers. The magic system uses spell slots, but not strictly Vancian since they don't need to be memorized, just known (for magic-users) or any from the list (clerics and such).
Quote from: Toadmaster;1047955I actually have very little experience with B/X. I played a handful of games a million years ago, but the vast majority was AD&D / 2E.
Is the magic system in still a vancian style, x# of spells per day kind of thing?
I realize S&S was an influence on D&D, but standard D&D has a much greater amount of magic / funky critters than found in the typical S&S literature. The magic system with fireball throwing mages is typically where I find D&D most notably drifts from classic S&S.
Toadmaster, that is *exactly* why I designed Heroic Fantasy Handbook. It has an entirely new system of magic (eldritch) with a method of casting spells (ceremonies) that is all inspired by swords & sorcery. You can use Heroic Fantasy Handbook with Labyrinth Lord, Swords & Wizardry, etc. fairly easily so you could just grab that book if that's your main interest.
Quote from: JeremyR;1047962ACKS is bascially 90% B/X with the Domain system from Companion and some of the economic stuff (and skills) from the Gazetteers. The magic system uses spell slots, but not strictly Vancian since they don't need to be memorized, just known (for magic-users) or any from the list (clerics and such).
I would say that was true of ACKS Core, but now that we've released Player's Companion, Domains at War, Lairs & Encounters, Axioms, and Heroic Fantasy Handbook it's grown into its own thing almost entirely.
Quote from: Dave;1047953Hey Alex, any chance you could get an ACKS bundle going on Rpgnow? I've been kicking myself for missing the bundle of holding a year ago, but would like to go "all in" on the system.
I hadn't thought of doing so, but I will. Great idea. Thank you!
Quote from: amacris;1047968Toadmaster, that is *exactly* why I designed Heroic Fantasy Handbook. It has an entirely new system of magic (eldritch) with a method of casting spells (ceremonies) that is all inspired by swords & sorcery. You can use Heroic Fantasy Handbook with Labyrinth Lord, Swords & Wizardry, etc. fairly easily so you could just grab that book if that's your main interest.
Ok, I'll definitely be taking a look. Although not a huge fan of level / class I'm liking everything I'm hearing from you and others, and I do get into level / class moods at times. Sounds like a lot of systemless stuff to borrow for other games as well.
Quote from: Larsdangly;1047596But I am surprised to hear ACKS was written by someone who worked for Milo whats-his-face. What the hell is that all about? No wonder a slice of the roleplaying game community thinks the OSR is full of alt-right fuck wits. It only takes one or two prominent people like that to catch your attention.
And an ANTIFA/BLM leader was recently convicted of statutory rape (https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2018/03/portland_activist_micah_rhodes.html), and has a juvenile history of sex crimes. Will TBP now ban anyone associated with them? Will all the lefty storygamers be banned? Of course not. Alt-right bad, ctrl-left good.
The problem is, as always, all the political and religious stuff - left, right, moderate or lunatic is irrelevant - being discussed at all. It's rare for anyone to call someone a cunt over rpgs, and if they do it's soon forgotten. The political and religious stuff poisons the discussion, or at least it does if Americans are involved (which they always are on english-speaking forums), it's horribly polarised and nasty. The moderating of it will
always be partial - on TBP it's lefty, on bodybuilding.com (where I'm a minor mod) it's righty. Alt-right good, ctrl-left bad. On another strength training forum it was too small for much politics to happen, but they still had to make the off-topic subforum invisible to the public (like Tangency) and require a signin because so much of what was said was defamatory to the individuals discussed, and all so nasty. Off-Topic subforums poison forums as a whole and turn everyone stupid.
Quote from: rgalex;1047950Well, except the further discussion where yesterday afternoon a mod said "The moral of the story is not to carry water for white supremacists and then repeatedly threaten to sue the board." (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?830945-ACKS-amp-Autarch-Added-to-Forbidden-Topics-List/page4)
So, you know, discussion is banned except for mods and admins who get to keep pounding on the drum.
I stupidly followed your link. Reminded why I banned myself and it looks like the boot licking has only grown, seems their banning any question of the mods has been effective.
I was :rolleyes:fond:rolleyes: of their "are we too biased and thus driving away existing and prospective users" thread a few years ago, where all the ideological hardliner regulars filed in to say their equivalents of "no" and "other ideological/people are [insert ideological term for the damnable]". After which the thread served as proof that they arent damagingly biased, and things proceeded as they had prior.
They've steadily been circle jerking themselves into clown world, as has been the case for their particular variety of ideology
I received my second perma-ban a few days ago. I feel cleansed.
Quote from: HorusArisen;1047919I'll agree to disagree on this, wasted way too much airtime on the system already.
You can do that, but you'll just be obviously uninformed of what you're talking about. B/X is not a D20 system by any stretch of the imagination.
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1047912The tthing about BGG is that if you see the 'likes' on the various threads, it would seem that the user base largely is sjw. Anyone who doesn't toe a certain line seems to get downvoted or just not upvoted as much. I don't know if the fact that upvotes aren't anonymous factors into that in light of how the site is moderated as of late.
The user base certainly skews left, as educated people under 50 tend to skew left. However, BGG has a huge user base, and 90+ per cent of them engage with it strictly as a gaming forum and database. The portion of users who engage in these types of debates, even just thumbing posts, is vanishingly small. Which shows how a small number of relentless zealots can essentially take over a site if a third or so of users are vaguely sympathetic to their aims, and most of the rest don't give a crap. And by the time more users do give a crap because ideological bullshit and crusades are swamping their hobby discussion, it will be too late.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1047980And an ANTIFA/BLM leader was recently convicted of statutory rape (https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2018/03/portland_activist_micah_rhodes.html), and has a juvenile history of sex crimes. Will TBP now ban anyone associated with them? Will all the lefty storygamers be banned? Of course not. Alt-right bad, ctrl-left good.
Nope. 1) Gay people can't rape because they are a protected minority, 2) gays are all for pedophilia because to paraphrase leftist darling George Takei that's how you learn you're gay -- child abuse.
Quote from: Haffrung;1048013..as educated people under 50 tend to skew left.
Its almost as if having to pass through an ideological temple for a series of years during a period of ones life when they have complete freedom, but little life experience to serve as an immune system against bad ideas, results in widespread indoctrination.
Adding to this would be the widespread background belief that paying for higher education, means purchasing some degree of enlightenment. Which creates a deeper susceptibility to the messages being broadcast by said temples staff.
Not that a cush lifestyle largely removed from demanding labor, environmental hardship and where '
survival skills' means buying necessity goods from the auto checkout at Walmart helps. What it does do, is create a lot of leisure time for people to begin to tirelessly dissect their home regions for the purpose of
perfection /
utopiaSo as long evolved purposeful skills meant for survival (food harvesting, construction, security from predators, territorial management) go un-used in earnest, what isnt used becomes an anxiety, and what is used becomes an aggressive native environment societal assault that can be described as : dissection toward butchery
Calhoun's experiment was about more than mice, it was about the hazards to social animals when insulated almost entirely away from their thousands to millions of years evolved components.
It isnt '
uneducated ' communities introducing absurdities like 'switch rape'/constant consent or '
RAPE', 'fat positivity' or birthing ideologies that have replaced an old world end point evil like "Satan", with half the human population (human males. See: 'muh patriarchy').
I couldn't give a monkey's chuff what the guys behind ACKS think politically. It is, imho, one of the very best works in the OSR.
Brilliant, brilliant work. Absolutely.
Quote from: KingCheops;10480922) gays are all for pedophilia because to paraphrase leftist darling George Takei that's how you learn you're gay -- child abuse.
I knew the guy was a mixed bag, but . . . are you fucking kidding me?!?!?
Quote from: KingCheops;1048092gays are all for pedophilia
(https://tecnoblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/godzilla-facepalm.jpg)
Quote from: KingCheops;1048092Nope. 1) Gay people can't rape because they are a protected minority, 2) gays are all for pedophilia because to paraphrase leftist darling George Takei that's how you learn you're gay -- child abuse.
1. This Micah guy isn't gay, he's bisexual; as mentioned in the article, he's also been done for sex with a 17yo girl, legal in some states but the one he was in at the time (and no, he doesn't appear to have used that as a defence). You would know this if you'd read the article, at the moment you are suffering from premature speculation, I understand they have treatments for that now.
2. Takei didn't say that.
On the Howard Stern show, where he, in his own words, plays the "naughty gay grandpa" and says some things that weren't true just to get a laugh, he said of being molested as a 13yo by 18-19yo camp counsellors, "It was both wonderful and scary and kind of intimidating, and delightful," he says. "I mean, all those opposites." And this is true in some cases, because the body can be aroused while the mind is disgusted and afraid; this is one of the traumatic aspects of child abuse, since the victim may have been physically aroused but still terrified, and because of their physical arousal blame themselves for the abuse, and so on.
He said that it was a summer of discovering his sexuality. Sometimes a person can suffer a crime and
not be traumatised. It's still a crime. But the victim is not waking in cold sweats 20 years later, and their suffering does not define their life. When it comes to sexual stuff the left is hopelessly confused, and the right just wants to shake its fist in manly righteous fury and put everyone in prison for life, so both struggle with this idea: not everyone is traumatised by being a victim of crime, and you are not the worst day of your life. Both left and right struggle with a victim of sexual abuse who says they're not traumatised. It doesn't fit the narrative.
Given Takei's persona on the show, he was probably making it up for laughs anyway, he's never mentioned it before or since; his description of the camp counsellor as tall, Nordic-looking, muscular and so on is more like a fantasy than reality. It's the Howard Stern show, a large part of which is dedicated to saying supershockedgy things with a sexual turn to them. Howard Stern probably plays
Poison'd with Ron Edwards.
You are a festering knobjockey, Cheops. You probably let your players in D&D use point-buy and never bring any snacks.
What in the fuck does pedophilia have to do with a good game becoming a banned topic on tBP?
Amacris -- any future printing or future PODs should proudly bear a "First RPG banned from RPG.net!" star. You've achieved what FATAL could not, and I think that's worth something.
Quote from: Paraguybrarian;1048196Amacris -- any future printing or future PODs should proudly bear a "First RPG banned from RPG.net!" star. You've achieved what FATAL could not, and I think that's worth something.
I hadn't realized I had achieved such storied heights. My own game is a killing word.
Quote from: amacris;1048226I hadn't realized I had achieved such storied heights. My own game is a killing word.
Dammit Macris, now I have to go watch Dune again
Actually, hmm, Dune wouldn't be too bad a setting for my next campaign. Maybe get some more use out of Kanahu after all...
Quote from: amacris;1048226I hadn't realized I had achieved such storied heights. My own game is a killing word.
You should send them a thank you for additional sales. If the ass handedness can get me to buy an OSR game I reckon you got a few more out of it.
So the reply to a threat of legal actions is not saying sorry and make it right but it is to ban the game and topic? Wow! New lows on TBP. Sadly, nobody is surprised by it.
And yes i know, it wasn't even a threat of legal action...which makes it even worse.
If we ever need a picture for the definition of hypocrite/hypocrisy in a lexicon we can just post a pic of TBP and its staff. Their so called moderation is a joke. The rules only apply to people they do not like (and are especially not applicable on themselves). What a fucked up place it has become. And it honestly makes me sad. Because it was once a very inspired place (yes, i know, some might not like to hear that...but who cares).
Quote from: jeff37923;1048191What in the fuck does pedophilia have to do with a good game becoming a banned topic on tBP?
Nothing. One guy has an axe to grind, and all of a sudden we find ourselves in a tool shed.
Quote from: Baron Opal;1048294Nothing. One guy has an axe to grind, and all of a sudden we find ourselves in a tool shed.
It was worth it for that metaphor. :)
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1048301It was worth it for that metaphor. :)
You're welcome.
Quote from: amacris;1048226I hadn't realized I had achieved such storied heights. My own game is a killing word.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/RectangularSlimKusimanse-size_restricted.gif)
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1048301It was worth it for that metaphor. :)
Thanks! Seemed apt.
Quote from: Azraele;1047951I reported that post. As with other reports I've sent, it was neither addressed nor resolved
I expect they'll be banning you soon.
Quote from: KingCheops;1048315You're welcome.
Don't go off topic again.
That applies to everyone!
Quote from: RPGPundit;1048598I expect they'll be banning you soon.
Jesus, I hope not. My #1 fan is there! (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?830817-Tian-Shang-Lone-Wolf-Fists-anyone-familiar-with-Legends-of-the-Wulin)
Quote from: Azraele;1048664Jesus, I hope not. My #1 fan is there! (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?830817-Tian-Shang-Lone-Wolf-Fists-anyone-familiar-with-Legends-of-the-Wulin)
First will come accusations of cultural appropriations, then they'll decide you're a bad person, thej they'll ban you.
Wouldn't be the first time. Hell, since they seem totally ok for dropping the hammer for off site stuff, I'm surprised anyone here with an account over there hasn't been purged. It's like the gamer USSR. If they purge just enough people, it'll be a paradise.
Yeah, seriously, it's social communism in its end-game, and proof of how that doesn't work.
So has the ban and fallout from it actually effected sales? I'd guess there was an increase right after. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Omega;1048769So has the ban and fallout from it actually effected sales? I'd guess there was an increase right after. :rolleyes:
Well, Autarch's current kickstarter performed above expectations. I'd bet there's a connection there.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1048765Yeah, seriously, it's social communism in its end-game, and proof of how that doesn't work.
Get woke, go broke.
Quote from: Omega;1048769So has the ban and fallout from it actually effected sales? I'd guess there was an increase right after. :rolleyes:
Our Kickstarter pledges jumped following the ban. Whether that was a result of the ban or simply the typical "end of month" Kickstarter bump, I cannot say. I would hazard it was 10% Streisand Effect and 90% typical last-minute bump.
Quote from: Omega;1048769So has the ban and fallout from it actually effected sales?
Let's say it has.
Is that a good thing?
Because I don't think the politically motivated of any stripe make for good gamers, especially if they aren't gamers in the first place and merely buying product to support an agenda. Sure you may get a boost in sales, but at the cost of changing priorities, which is exactly what happened to rpg.net.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1049394I don't think the politically motivated of any stripe make for good gamers
It's true. But like the hand-wringers on rpg.net, they don't game. BNGs (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?241928-I-like-gamers&p=5198590#post5198590)* like the storygamers.
* side note: the linked thread is a good example of how much rpg.net has changed over time. I mean, just look at that thread and how many polite, reasonable people (ie not me) who game and enjoy it have been banned since.
ETA: oh and it looks like I was the first one to notice and call out Ron Edwards' "brain damage" comments, just a day after he made them. I guess that's when I was doomed. Once the BNGs get offended and take over a forum, that's it for all the gamers there.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1049394Let's say it has.
Is that a good thing?
Yes it is. The attempt is for a small group to decide what will be bought and sold. To the extent that they are frustrated in this effort, that is a good thing. If nothing else, it makes them appear to be even bigger idiots (as difficult as that is to imagine).
Besides, I doubt that their are very many people buying a game for those reasons with
no interest. I'm fairly slow to buy anything. If this kind of nonsense pushes me over the edge, it's only because I was already somewhat interested. Others buy stuff all the time that they are unlikely to use. One more item bought that way isn't going to change their situation substantially.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1049396It's true. But like the hand-wringers on rpg.net, they don't game. BNGs (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?241928-I-like-gamers&p=5198590#post5198590)* like the storygamers.
* side note: the linked thread is a good example of how much rpg.net has changed over time. I mean, just look at that thread and how many polite, reasonable people (ie not me) who game and enjoy it have been banned since.
ETA: oh and it looks like I was the first one to notice and call out Ron Edwards' "brain damage" comments, just a day after he made them. I guess that's when I was doomed. Once the BNGs get offended and take over a forum, that's it for all the gamers there.
Ah, 2006. When acted they acted we do now. Like adults and nobody got fragged for it.
Also, it seems like half those folks got banned at some point.
Going through old RPGNet threads is like going through old photographs of the Soviet Communist Party. Who knew all those people were secret traitors, spies, and fascists?
Alex, you seem like a cool dude so you can say more about your association with Milo? Is he just misunderstood or is he a neo-nazi? If he's the latter, did you know this before taking the job?
Quote from: quozl;1049464Alex, you seem like a cool dude so you can say more about your association with Milo? Is he just misunderstood or is he a neo-nazi? If he's the latter, did you know this before taking the job?
The idea that a Jewish homosexual with a black boyfriend is a "neo-nazi" requires considerable ignorance to even suggest.
I don't deny considerable ignorance! I'm just wondering how all of this came about.
Quote from: Doom;1049465The idea that a Jewish homosexual with a black boyfriend is a "neo-nazi" requires considerable ignorance to even suggest.
My unsolicited opinion is that Milo is a real life shitposter. He'll say anything for attention. That doesn't mean he doesn't make good points from time to time.
It seems his time in the limelight is coming to an end. I've seen many comments on videos and articles saying they're done with the shock reaction "Watch Ben Shapiro pwn this libtard!" kind of stuff, and want to see more thoughtful discussions. I hope it's true.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1049473My unsolicited opinion is that Milo is a real life shitposter. He'll say anything for attention. That doesn't mean he doesn't make good points from time to time.
It seems his time in the limelight is coming to an end. I've seen many comments on videos and articles saying they're done with the shock reaction "Watch Ben Shapiro pwn this libtard!" kind of stuff, and want to see more thoughtful discussions. I hope it's true.
Milo is the ultimate troll. It has been hilarious at times, watching an interview and you know exactly what he's about to say... Their time in the limelight is probably coming to an end, but it's not due to the glut of videos on YouTube. It's the fact that much of their main venues gets protested, and locked down after a bomb threat, that's what's going to end their time in the limelight. You can't do comedy any more on campuses, even if your comedy has a salient point about the current state of the world.
Quote from: quozl;1049466I don't deny considerable ignorance! I'm just wondering how all of this came about.
Everyone the left dislikes is a Nazi.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1048765Yeah, seriously, it's social communism in its end-game, and proof of how that doesn't work.
It always ends in starvation and genocide. Which may be what TBP is going for. Metaphorically speaking.
Quote from: pdboddy;1049479Milo is the ultimate troll. It has been hilarious at times, watching an interview and you know exactly what he's about to say... Their time in the limelight is probably coming to an end, but it's not due to the glut of videos on YouTube. It's the fact that much of their main venues gets protested, and locked down after a bomb threat, that's what's going to end their time in the limelight. You can't do comedy any more on campuses, even if your comedy has a salient point about the current state of the world.
My ability to comment much is restricted by various confidentiality agreements. I think I can say that Milo is something like a Loki trickster figure or court jester. He believes his calling is to mock and infuriate whatever is conventionally moral in society.
Quote from: amacris;1049608My ability to comment much is restricted by various confidentiality agreements. I think I can say that Milo is something like a Loki trickster figure or court jester. He believes his calling is to mock and infuriate whatever is conventionally moral in society.
EG: A gadfly, a troll... Just not as senseless. (maybee)
Quote from: amacris;1049348Our Kickstarter pledges jumped following the ban. Whether that was a result of the ban or simply the typical "end of month" Kickstarter bump, I cannot say. I would hazard it was 10% Streisand Effect and 90% typical last-minute bump.
Like I said, trying to downplay your controversy isn't the way. You need to draw everyone's attention to what they're trying to do to you. That's where the money is. It's free advertising, provided for you by your enemies.
You could call it the "Trump Method".
Quote from: RPGPundit;1049715Like I said, trying to downplay your controversy isn't the way. You need to draw everyone's attention to what they're trying to do to you. That's where the money is. It's free advertising, provided for you by your enemies.
You could call it the "Trump Method".
For personal reasons I prefer to minimize controversy, not maximize it.
Quote from: amacris;1049831For personal reasons I prefer to minimize controversy, not maximize it.
Sadly, that won't work. They'll just keep coming at you, because you're surrendering.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1049832Sadly, that won't work. They'll just keep coming at you, because you're surrendering.
This. The same way frivolous lawsuits exploded when insurance companies decided (incorrectly for the long term) settling was cheaper than fighting.
If RPGs aren't someone's primary focus then fighting a battle around them is a waste of the most precious resource: time.
Quote from: Doom;1049465The idea that a Jewish homosexual with a black boyfriend is a "neo-nazi" requires considerable ignorance to even suggest.
Husband, even.
They are winning on the social media front. Jason Hobbs (Hobbs & Friends of the OSR podcast) a long time supporter of ACKS who just recently did an interview in defiance has now caved, pulled the interview, and renounced ACKS. We'll see if Erik Tenkar holds strong...
Quote from: sharps54;1049881They are winning on the social media front. Jason Hobbs (Hobbs & Friends of the OSR podcast) a long time supporter of ACKS who just recently did an interview in defiance has now caved, pulled the interview, and renounced ACKS. We'll see if Erik Tenkar holds strong...
If that's true then I guess I'll delete my subscription to his podcast. No point in having my time wasted by listening to a podcast that only allows double+ goodthink and interviews only members of the Inner Party.
Quote from: wmarshal;1049883If that's true then I guess I'll delete my subscription to his podcast. No point in having my time wasted by listening to a podcast that only allows double+ goodthink and interviews only members of the Inner Party.
Of course, you could try communicating with him and trying to sway his views back toward your side of the argument before you just cut and run.
He talks about it on the 13 July episode of his Anchor podcast "Random Screed"
Quote from: HappyDaze;1049885Of course, you could try communicating with him and trying to sway his views back toward your side of the argument before you just cut and run.
Not going to waste any time dealing with him or the podcast network he's on. For Jason Hobbs and MisdirectedMark to have implemented the decision they made they've already gone beyond the point where any discussion would sway them. I actually gave them my vote in the Ennies. Wish I could take that vote back.
https://misdirectedmark.com/2018/07/14/mistakes-apologies-and-moving-forward/#comment-317
I didn't find any of it persuasive. I tried to leave the comment below, but they haven't allowed it to be posted yet.
I'm unsubscribing from your podcast, and regret voting for your podcast in the Ennies. You put that episode down the Memory Hole when there was nothingness controversial about the content. If your position actually had any integrity you'd scrub any mention of ACKS from all of your podcasts episodes since it seems the sin is to have anything to do with Alex Macris at all. You won't do that as that would take effort.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1049832Sadly, that won't work. They'll just keep coming at you, because you're surrendering.
I'm not surrendering. I'm simply not adapting the same tactics RPG Pundit uses. Keep in mind I spent most of last year full-time working for someone who maximized every controversy he could. I know the benefits and the costs. I also know it's not the only way to fight.
Quote from: wmarshal;1049888https://misdirectedmark.com/2018/07/14/mistakes-apologies-and-moving-forward/#comment-317
I didn't find any of it persuasive. I tried to leave the comment below, but they haven't allowed it to be posted yet.
I'm unsubscribing from your podcast, and regret voting for your podcast in the Ennies. You put that episode down the Memory Hole when there was nothingness controversial about the content. If your position actually had any integrity you'd scrub any mention of ACKS from all of your podcasts episodes since it seems the sin is to have anything to do with Alex Macris at all. You won't do that as that would take effort.
Thanks for this, wmarshal.
The whole situation is simply the boring, real-life version of this:
Roark is widely condemned, but Wynand decides to use his papers to defend his friend. This unpopular stance hurts the circulation of his newspapers... Wynand gives in and publishes a denunciation of Roark. Wynand, who has betrayed his own values by attacking Roark, finally grasps the nature of the power he thought he held. I'm not at all shocked at such things occurring; I expect them.
Many drama, much tears, terrible shaking of fists in righteous nerdfury.
If you like the game, play it. If you like the podcast, listen to it. If you don't, don't. Is not so complicated, my young apprentice.
Running Traveller right now. And I'd continue to play Traveller even if it turned out that Miller was a Klan member who kept half his family in his basement like Joseph Fritzl. It's a good game either way. Likewise AD&D1e.
In the UK they did a "this girl can" campaign with some instagrammers, it was very successful in encouraging young women to be more physically active. So they tried a similar one here. It turns out some of the instagrammers they paid said some stupid, racist, homophobic and offensive things at some point years ago. So they've pulled the campaign. Now less young women will be physically active, more of them will have self-esteem issues playing into anxiety and depression, and years from now more of them will have arthritis and type II diabetes. "Yes but -" Thanks.
This reminds me of that US university that put all its courses up online for free, then were sued for not making them also in braille and audio for the blind or deaf; they couldn't afford to do that, so they had to take down all the material. Now, nobody has anything: equality achievement unlocked!
Or you could just calm the fuck down and play the game and listen to the podcast. Not everyone you know of in the world must be a moral exemplar in every way.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1049994So they've pulled the campaign. Now less young women will be physically active, more of them will have self-esteem issues playing into anxiety and depression, and years from now more of them will have arthritis and type II diabetes.
Hyperbole much? Do you really think that this one campaign would make that much difference? I think you're taking the butterfly effect to 11+ on this one.
I don't think Kyle's hyperboling. There is FAR too much "body image acceptance" (aka, gorge on corporate food!) and too little "get off your ass" being promoted to kids, teens and young adults. Kyle is/was also a fitness instructor so he's seen the misery firsthand. Also, fitness campaigns do piggyback on each other and fitness/health company marketing so the loss of a campaign does have some ripple effect. How much I don't know, but its not my field.
Is there anything in ACKS' books that justify it being "forbidden topic"?
Or it 100% about the author?
Quote from: Spinachcat;1050003Is there anything in ACKS' books that justify it being "forbidden topic"?
No, not at all.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1049996Hyperbole much? Do you really think that this one campaign would make that much difference? I think you're taking the butterfly effect to 11+ on this one.
It doesn't seem that his point was about the exact amount of influence the campaign would have had, but the fact that since it no longer exists it now won't have
any effect at all.
Exactly. The UK campaign was said to have a good effect. Australia and the UK are similar enough culturally that we could expect a similar effect. So if the campaign's presence made more women active, then its absence would make less women active. With all the usual results of inactivity. That's why I mentioned also the university having to abandon its free courses; by being (rightly) keen to exclude no-one we end up (wrongly) excluding everyone.
It was in any case just an example of the fact that if anyone offering some product or service must be a moral exemplar in every respect - not only in their actions now but in their public words throughout the past twenty-odd years of the internet - then we will have few or no goods or services left.
This sort of archaeological puritanism would be why so many are so keen on internet anonymity: if we dig through everything you've ever said on the internet, we are going to find several instances of your saying something stupidly offensive, and several dozen instances of your saying something which was not deliberately offensive but if taken out of context or read in a certain way will look really bad - and perhaps get you fired, or ditched by your spouse, etc.
Notably, the fellow Gunn who was brought down had himself previously condemned others for the awful things they said, I imagine this is why people went digging in tweets from 2009, for fuck's sakes. "Hypocrite! Haha!" Few of us could pass such scrutiny. I certainly couldn't, could you?
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1050022This sort of archaeological puritanism would be why so many are so keen on internet anonymity: if we dig through everything you've ever said on the internet, we are going to find several instances of your saying something stupidly offensive, and several dozen instances of your saying something which was not deliberately offensive but if taken out of context or read in a certain way will look really bad - and perhaps get you fired, or ditched by your spouse, etc.
Notably, the fellow Gunn who was brought down had himself previously condemned others for the awful things they said, I imagine this is why people went digging in tweets from 2009, for fuck's sakes. "Hypocrite! Haha!" Few of us could pass such scrutiny. I certainly couldn't, could you?
I was going to say that I'd probably look just stupid:).
Then I realized that the standards for offense had changed so much, you're probably right.
Also, I'd probably also delete my subscription to podcasts that boycott ACKS, but I've got very few such subscriptions;).
Quote from: Tod13;1049855This. The same way frivolous lawsuits exploded when insurance companies decided (incorrectly for the long term) settling was cheaper than fighting.
was a victim of one of those, my wife rear-ended another person getting onto the highway, thankfully I was immediately behind her and took pictures of the damage (while the "lady" was auditioning for a horror movie scene). amount of damage inflicted was the plastic frame around the license plate from the dealer, was broken on one side. When I talked to my insurance agent a few days later she said they brought in the car with the rear bumper all beat up and held on with duct tape. Even with obvious insurance fraud, they refused to fight it.
its also similar to retail stores refusing to confront shoplifters... everyone is afraid to stand up and fight wrongs cause they are afraid of what might be said about them.
"Historians of the future will have a hard time figuring out how so many organized groups of strident jackasses succeeded in leading us around by the nose and morally intimidating the majority into silence." - Thomas Sowell
Quote from: NYTFLYR;1050042"Historians of the future will have a hard time figuring out how so many organized groups of strident jackasses succeeded in leading us around by the nose and morally intimidating the majority into silence." - Thomas Sowell
I don't think historians of the future will have any trouble recognizing this as a quasi-religious movement, and comparing it with other moral panics in history. What they may be puzzled by is why so few contemporary observers didn't recognize what was going on.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1049994This reminds me of that US university that put all its courses up online for free, then were sued for not making them also in braille and audio for the blind or deaf; they couldn't afford to do that, so they had to take down all the material. Now, nobody has anything: equality achievement unlocked!
Hazards of unintended consequences. The American Disabilities Act is a net positive and good intentions but as with all laws that lack judgement it results in some stupid situations that end up harming society.
If the media wants to translate something into a language commonly spoken by the local population, they can pretty much hire anybody who speaks the language to translate. But if they want to reach out to the hearing impaired or the blind, as protected groups the ADA sets standards for translators and close captioning / braille that can be difficult to meet, particularly with short notice.
As a result most media ignores the blind and hearing impaired when reporting on disasters. Not because they can't be bothered, but it takes a time to caption video (can't trust computers to do it) and ASL interpreters are not as common as you would think. In a rapidly developing situation by the time the video is ready to go, the information may be outdated.
There is a lot of time involved in the certification for ASL interpreters and it doesn't typically pay all that well, so while it is not hard to find people who "speak" the language it is hard to find people that meet the ADA's standards. It is fairly easy to find someone who can translate Spanish and no requirement that if you provide translation it also has to be subtitled.
The other side is the stupid stuff you see like requiring that everything be handicapped accessible, including things like an outhouse at the end of steep rugged trail where you will never see a wheel chair. Don't matter, have to build that $20,000 ramp for a $10,000 outhouse just in case.
This is why I hate blanket laws that don't leave room for interpretation and judgement.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1050022Notably, the fellow Gunn who was brought down had himself previously condemned others for the awful things they said, I imagine this is why people went digging in tweets from 2009, for fuck's sakes. "Hypocrite! Haha!" Few of us could pass such scrutiny. I certainly couldn't, could you?
It was numerous tweets from 2009 to 2011 and included some very disturbing images as well as a link to child pornography shared by a convicted pedophile. It's not like it was one off or the occasional joke in bad taste it was a repeated pattern of rather disgusting comments that only seemed to end when he made the big times with Disney. He also tried to defend himself on 4chan which is like the worst thing you can do. Also it wasn't done in anonymity it was done on his personal, blue checked account. You know the ones the right are disallowed due to "hate speech" like "enforce the laws on the books."
Live by the twitter sword die by the twitter sword.
Amacris is rather smart I think to not pursue his antagonists in the social media sphere. It is a very dangerous tool that can easily turn in your hands.
You didn't answer my question, Cheops.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1050083You didn't answer my question, Cheops.
I could. What is the statue of limitations on social media job lynch mobs?
I did. You just didn't like my answers.
Quote from: The_Shadow;1047630The worst thing about TBP may just be the boot-licking posts from the peons on Trouble Tickets threads telling mods how amazing they are.
Agreed. It's a bit throw-up-in-mouth inducing.
No halflings?
That's barbaric!
Quote from: Mistwell;1050092No halflings?
That's barbaric!
Well, halflings were eventually added in the Heroic Fantasy Handbook after much fan outcry for them. I held out as long as I could.
Quote from: KingCheops;1050086I did. You just didn't like my answers.
My only question was:
"Few of us could pass such scrutiny. I certainly couldn't, could you?"You quoted it, but did not respond to it. You must be preparing to stand for elected office.
Quote from: LurtchWhat is the statue of limitations on social media job lynch mobs?
For so long as the words still exist somewhere on the internet. Or even earlier; MPs here have lost preselection because a video surfaced of something they said in the early 1990s.
Quote from: amacris;1050097Well, halflings were eventually added in the Heroic Fantasy Handbook after much fan outcry for them. I held out as long as I could.
It pained me to see it happen. I almost didn't back the KS because of that:D!
The barbarian conquerors is what persuaded me;).
Quote from: Haffrung;1050044I don't think historians of the future will have any trouble recognizing this as a quasi-religious movement, and comparing it with other moral panics in history. What they may be puzzled by is why so few contemporary observers didn't recognize what was going on.
That's because the current "historians" are some of the worst offenders, when it comes to seeing what they want to see, and coming up with ways to rationalize it.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1050140That's because the current "historians" are some of the worst offenders, when it comes to seeing what they want to see, and coming up with ways to rationalize it.
History, like many other humanities, was amongst one of the earliest subjects to fall to this lunacy.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1050125My only question was:
"Few of us could pass such scrutiny. I certainly couldn't, could you?"
You quoted it, but did not respond to it. You must be preparing to stand for elected office.
For so long as the words still exist somewhere on the internet. Or even earlier; MPs here have lost preselection because a video surfaced of something they said in the early 1990s.
Oh sorry. I only answered the bits I thought were up for question. My comments on this forum alone bar me from office.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1049473My unsolicited opinion is that Milo is a real life shitposter.
I prefer to think of him as a performance artist whose art is intended to make part of his audience into part of the performance.
The audience is intended to watch him, and watch the people reacting to him.
Quote from: amacris;1049831For personal reasons I prefer to minimize controversy, not maximize it.
Others may disagree, but as a businessperson myself, I agree that's the wise course. Not that you need my advice.
Quote from: Mistwell;1050191I prefer to think of him as a performance artist whose art is intended to make part of his audience into part of the performance.
The audience is intended to watch him, and watch the people reacting to him.
So a gay, conservative version of Sacha Baron-Cohen?
Quote from: KingCheops;1050205So a gay, conservative version of Sacha Baron-Cohen?
I'd say Milo is more honest about it.
Quote from: Mistwell;1050191I prefer to think of him as a performance artist whose art is intended to make part of his audience into part of the performance.
The audience is intended to watch him, and watch the people reacting to him.
This is my take as well.
Quote from: KingCheops;1050205So a gay, conservative version of Sacha Baron-Cohen?
I'd say Milo actually believes the stuff he says. Though he could express it with less provocation if he chose to, and does in regular interviews when he's not "performing".
Cohen delights in provocation for its own sake to make a buck. I'm not saying he doesn't point to any uncomfortable truths - but the ones he shoots for are very descended and low-hanging. There is an extraordinary amount of set-up to get to it too. That's part of the discomfort of it all.
My favorite example of this is the Paul Abdul one where he got those Mexican yard-keepers to act as human stools.
Quote from: KingCheops;1050205So a gay, conservative version of Sacha Baron-Cohen?
As far as I know, he doesn't do "characters" to hide who he is.. so I am not sure if the same as SBC.
Quote from: amacris;1049831For personal reasons I prefer to minimize controversy, not maximize it.
Then I have to say, you picked a strange horse to back in Milo.
Quote from: amacris;1049929I'm not surrendering. I'm simply not adapting the same tactics RPG Pundit uses. Keep in mind I spent most of last year full-time working for someone who maximized every controversy he could. I know the benefits and the costs. I also know it's not the only way to fight.
Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "minimizing controversy". I tend to take advantage of any Outrage generated at me. I just don't go out there specifically provoking it by certain outrageous acts like a few others do.
Quote from: NYTFLYR;1050042"Historians of the future will have a hard time figuring out how so many organized groups of strident jackasses succeeded in leading us around by the nose and morally intimidating the majority into silence." - Thomas Sowell
Man, Sowell is just awesome.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1050544Man, Sowell is just awesome.
Indeed! I'm reading
The Quest for Cosmic Justice at the moment, it seems that every page drips insight.
Quote from: KingCheops;1050048It was numerous tweets from 2009 to 2011 and included some very disturbing images as well as a link to child pornography shared by a convicted pedophile.
If I recognize what you're referring to, this isn't actually correct; the link was to a video of a bunch of schoolgirls singing the Divinyls' '80s pop song "I Touch Myself" and given an extremely bad-taste title implying it was something much worse. To which Gunn reacted, for shock-gag value, as if it had been and he'd "enjoyed" it for precisely that reason.
(The guy who provided said link
did in fact turn out to later be convicted for possession of CP, however.)
This is not to say that Gunn didn't have a long history of very bad-taste jokes about the topic or that the revelation of this fact might not significantly have impacted the bottom line of the movie he was working on. But free speech, and the licit limits of private response to it through free association, are one topic; actual accusation of crime is another.
Quote from: Lurtch;1050084What is the statue of limitations on social media job lynch mobs?
They will exist until someone pushes back on them.
One of these days, an accused is going to turn the twitter bitches into the hunted. The tech is already out there.
It is rather appalling the sheer speed we are seeing this madness spread and the sheer amount of damage it is doing to various media.
Quote from: Omega;1050723It is rather appalling the sheer speed we are seeing this madness spread and the sheer amount of damage it is doing to various media.
Our species has mistaken our ability to make better tools for an actual evolution into a better species.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1050672One of these days, an accused is going to turn the twitter bitches into the hunted.
For starters, that's what happened with Gunn. The guy was all for Roseanne Barr getting fired, until the roles were reversed.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1050730Our species has mistaken our ability to make better tools for an actual evolution into a better species.
Well, we are getting better in a lot of ways. Violence has been trending down for centuries.
But yes, it is disheartening to recognize that modern society seems as vulnerable to tribalism, dogma, and moral panics as the Puritans were. It has become apparent that reason is a thin, thin crust over our uglier primal instincts.
Please keep this ON-TOPIC for RPG Discussion ONLY.
So allmost a month later whats the effect been?
I'd guess the mob has moved on to fresher targets as they usually do with the occasional pot-shots just to remind the past victims to keep their heads down. I suspect after GenCon we will see some increased crazy.
Quote from: Omega;1051157So allmost a month later whats the effect been?
I'd guess the mob has moved on to fresher targets as they usually do with the occasional pot-shots just to remind the past victims to keep their heads down. I suspect after GenCon we will see some increased crazy.
Oh, I think most of the Usual Suspects will have their hands full with the release of Vampire 5E.
Eventually, I expect all games will be banned on tangency.net
Quote from: RPGPundit;1051447Eventually, I expect all games will be banned on tangency.net
Maybe. They might ban all the users before they get to that point. The way the left has been turning on each other for being insufficiently woke, it wouldn't surprise me. Would the last moderator please turn out the lights before they ban themselves?
Well, the gamers will be banned first because just BEING a gamer is rapidly becoming enough for accusation of Nazism.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1051447Eventually, I expect all games will be banned on tangency.net
Nonsense! They'll keep the storygames.
Games where you kill orcs are Problematic, games where you rape cabin boy corpses are not.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1051766Nonsense! They'll keep the storygames.
Games where you kill orcs are Problematic, games where you rape cabin boy corpses are not.
No, only the ones with approved narratives will survive.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1051766Nonsense! They'll keep the storygames.
Games where you kill orcs are Problematic, games where you rape cabin boy corpses are not.
Isn't it the other way around?
Plow your way through a gilded hole, massacring everything in sight ("HEY! How much exp for smashing kobold eggs?") Not a prob.
Start talking about "seizing the booty" on the other hand...
Quote from: amacris;1047968Toadmaster, that is *exactly* why I designed Heroic Fantasy Handbook. It has an entirely new system of magic (eldritch) with a method of casting spells (ceremonies) that is all inspired by swords & sorcery. You can use Heroic Fantasy Handbook with Labyrinth Lord, Swords & Wizardry, etc. fairly easily so you could just grab that book if that's your main interest.
I picked up most of the pdfs during the Drive Thru RPG sale. Although I'm not a big fan of "D&D" class / level games I like what I'm seeing so far and will be adding the dead tree versions in the future.
This is only my second purchase of core rules for a "D&D" based game since the d20 craze of the early 2000s. The other was Lion & Dragon earlier this year. Both have addressed areas I haven't liked in past class / level games. Again thank you to the controversy for bringing ACKS to my attention.
Quote from: Melan;1049425Going through old RPGNet threads is like going through old photographs of the Soviet Communist Party. Who knew all those people were secret traitors, spies, and fascists?
Very much so, I see even some of the mods have run afoul of the mob being demoted to regular members or banned. The place has become a train wreck of "right thinking".
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1051766Nonsense! They'll keep the storygames.
Games where you kill orcs are Problematic, games where you rape cabin boy corpses are not.
Even posting the review of Poison'd you're referring to would get you banned and probably get a hate mob try and get you deplatformed.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1051766Nonsense! They'll keep the storygames.
Games where you kill orcs are Problematic, games where you rape cabin boy corpses are not.
You may be right.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1052128Even posting the review of Poison'd you're referring to would get you banned and probably get a hate mob try and get you deplatformed.
No, because it's a storygame.
Remember: I was banned, and I only ever talked about AD&D1e and similar games. And that was, god, eight years ago or something. Meanwhile everyone was desperately defending Ron Edwards and his "literal brain damage like child abuse" comments.
I would be extraordinarily surprised if anyone were banned for discussing Poison'd,
provided they were speaking of it favourably. If they rubbished it then all bets are off.
I got so tired of TBP I banned myself.
I pretty much just use TBP to try to trade/sell games from my collection. But I'm about to start moving that to Facebook as it seems more successful there.
Quote from: dungeon crawler;1052779I got so tired of TBP I banned myself.
Everyone should do that.
(https://i.imgur.com/JRMr9HF.png)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5KgBYQxowXM/VMPrRUnB5LI/AAAAAAAAUYU/uDnLdQGBDRw/s1600/Jew-Joseph-Stalin.jpg)
It's a gift that keeps giving.
Quote from: amacris;1055139It's a gift that keeps giving.
I backed the Nethercity kickstarter at the "give me copies of all your core stuff" level because I liked how the system looked and hadn't had a chance to get it yet.
You didn't tell us you were also including the Bonus Secret Stretch Goal:
"Piss off the fuck-stick brownshirts in the RPG hobby"
Is it too late to get some extra copies of that as add-ons? :D
Quote from: dungeon crawler;1052779I got so tired of TBP I banned myself.
More or less, it's what happened to me. Tired of having to measure my words, I decided to quit. I still have an account there, but I don't write anymore. Will I ever go back? Perhaps, but things will have to change a LOT.
Quote from: Claudius;1055154More or less, it's what happened to me. Tired of having to measure my words, I decided to quit. I still have an account there, but I don't write anymore. Will I ever go back? Perhaps, but things will have to change a LOT.
I must admit to being in an identical situation. Does anyone know of a reliable way of measuring what their active membership is? I go there every so often and look at what's 'changed' in the thread topics listing, and changes in this seem to have slowed to a crawl in the last year.
Expect it to get worse or at least stay at its current rate of worse over there.
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1055127(https://i.imgur.com/JRMr9HF.png)
Wow.
The fact Bailywolf has been so thoroughly indoctrinated breaks my heart though.
Quote from: ponta1010;1055168Does anyone know of a reliable way of measuring what their active membership is?
No. And that's exactly how they want it. Because that data might contradict what they claim their membership to be, which includes permabanned members because they "don't delete accounts". I would not be surprised if almost a quarter of their members cannot even participate on the forum.
Yet somehow this place is worse than rpg.net go figure.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1055176Wow.
The fact Bailywolf has been so thoroughly indoctrinated breaks my heart though.
No. And that's exactly how they want it. Because that data might contradict what they claim their membership to be, which includes permabanned members because they "don't delete accounts". I would not be surprised if almost a quarter of their members cannot even participate on the forum.
A quarter of members with over a thousand posts maybe, but the total membership is heavily inflated with people who logged a single digit number of times or lurkers or various sorts who won't get banned for obvious reasons.
Still it's depressing reading old threads and seeing a lot of good posts by banned people. That's the biggest reason I barely post there anymore, I only ever got one warning there...
Quote from: Daztur;1055184Still it's depressing reading old threads and seeing a lot of good posts by banned people.
What's really depressing is how many banned members used to be mods. Why would anyone volunteer to work with others who so eagerly eat their own, or do they truly believe they'll never come for them?
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1055186What's really depressing is how many banned members used to be mods. Why would anyone volunteer to work with others who so eagerly eat their own, or do they truly believe they'll never come for them?
No member of a mob has ever considered the possibility that they might be in the wrong or that their "allies" might turn on them. That's been true since there's been more than three people on earth.
Quote from: Daztur;1055184A quarter of members with over a thousand posts maybe, but the total membership is heavily inflated with people who logged a single digit number of times or lurkers or various sorts who won't get banned for obvious reasons.
Still it's depressing reading old threads and seeing a lot of good posts by banned people. That's the biggest reason I barely post there anymore, I only ever got one warning there...
One week several years ago, I was busy, and didn't read anything there for a week. When the business ended, I realized I had been a lot happier lately, and wondered why that was. Peeked into the current topics at the time, and realized what I hadn't been missing. Never been back. Didn't even log in to tell people bye.
Quote from: Claudius;1055154More or less, it's what happened to me. Tired of having to measure my words, I decided to quit. I still have an account there, but I don't write anymore. Will I ever go back? Perhaps, but things will have to change a LOT.
I haven't personally faced much censorship, but I have had to deal with people that were on the "correct side" of the argument berating me without any intervention by moderation. So its not so much censorship as hypocrisy that keeps me from more active involvement.
That, and now that ACKS has become verboten I just don't have much to talk about there. Like, I can't talk about any of the RPG stuff I actually do nowadays; I can't talk about Pundit's stuff, Zack S's stuff, I can't talk about ACKS, I'm pretty certain that Justin Alexander has a bad reputation over there (why?!).
It's like, Christ folks I just want to talk about my current elf games. They're just not having it though.
On the other hand, one of my biggest fans made a pretty rad thread asking about my kung-fu game, so it's not all bad. It just gets wearisome constantly watching your back for the next brand-new twentysomething mod with a political axe to grind. I can't even be reasonably sure that same mod isn't secret-policing this very post; it's a real Ingsoc situation.
Quote from: Azraele;1055225I'm pretty certain that Justin Alexander has a bad reputation over there (why?!).
Justin may be strongly left-wing politically, and of course very smart and the author of a bunch of great posts on playing RPGs - some of the greatest ever IMO. But he also has an abrasive personality and an obnoxious posting style, where RPGnet wants their posters meek and submissive. So I'm hardly surprised if he got into trouble. Mike Monard (equally obnoxious, equally lefty, albeit a lot less on the great posts) :P got into trouble there too as I recall.
It's not surprising to see once moderate members joining the mob. Either they always secretly wanted to or worse they wanted or want to be part of the cool kids club. While throwing away and all self respect they once had. My ex-best friend from elementary went down that route. He suddenly stopped wanting to play rpgs, read comics because the so called "cool" kids thought it was boring. Out of high school and going to college I was having none of that bullshit. He tried to give me a ultimatum to do things his way or else. I almost caved then said fuck it. It stopped feeling like a friendship and felt like being friends with him was a job and I never looked back since.
The sad part is they think if the spout the same bullshit, phrases and slogans that somehow the mob will not turn on them. Guess again they can and will. The regressive left loves to devour it's own. They refuse to understand basic psychology imo. The more you tell a person not to read or buy a product the more a potential buyer interest grows. Then again from what I saw many of their members have some mental health issues and chips the size of two galaxies on their shoulders.
Quote from: S'mon;1055231Justin may be strongly left-wing politically, and of course very smart and the author of a bunch of great posts on playing RPGs - some of the greatest ever IMO. But he also has an abrasive personality and an obnoxious posting style, where RPGnet wants their posters meek and submissive. So I'm hardly surprised if he got into trouble. Mike Monard (equally obnoxious, equally lefty, albeit a lot less on the great posts) :P got into trouble there too as I recall.
Then again, one of the mods is highly offensive and abrasive as well. I made the following comment on FB after he was railing at people and cursing at them.
Quote from: me on fbHow can you come here and talk like you have been and consider yourself able to be a mod or admin for any site that isn't about your political beliefs? With the way you have gone on in this post, I cannot view any of your posts or adjudications on RPGnet as anything but directed specifically by your personal feelings toward people and your political leanings.
This meant I got targeted by him. He made multiple attempts to post about how my head was up my ass, along with a lot of other inflammatory comments. Summary is that I said that I could not view his moderating as anything but a factor of his personal beliefs the way he espoused and carried himself on facebook. He went off saying he wasn't representing TBP on FB. My counter was that he was, esp since his moderator name was his real name for a long time. Anyway, essentially they have armed themselves with an echo-chamber of self-affirmation and bullying if you do not agree. Of course, the secret to avoid that, is to just discuss games instead of anything non-gaming.
EDIT: I removed the link to the specific post because he did not use my name after I said he could not. But I will say this, he posted the following on his own personal page. Which goes to show how much he wanted to color the truth of what happened so he looks like the hero instead of just another hypocritical bully.
Quote from: TBP moderator on his FB page talking about our discussionWell, X, I have had numerous people storm up to me and demand that I moderate the board in the way that they like and to live up to standards that I don't believe in, and the usual stoney-eyed bouncer death glare works nicely in communicating exactly what I think of their bullshit attempt to manipulate me. You may imagine me applying it now.
Second, when I am posting on Facebook, I may post in any goddamn way, shape or form I please. I don't even get paid for the work I do; restricting my freedom of action outside the board because of some imaginary standard that you pulled fresh and steaming out of your ass is, well, nonsense.
If you do have a problem with the way that I've been posting, feel free to report it to the admins at admin.rpgnet@gmail.com. I should also note that you have a wide variety of boards to pick from, including Stormfront, if you don't enjoy how I moderate RPGnet.
If you're unhappy about my opposition to the forcible removal of children from their parents and their placement in concentration camps, please find the nearest sharp or jagged object and just ram it way up your ass; like, don't stop until you hit the duodenum. Get it way up there, really explore that space.
I'm attaching a picture of the duodenum so you know what to look for.
Finally, would you mind terribly if I quoted you on my own feed and my response? I won't do it if you say no, but I will post my response and just let the audience infer what you said. If you say no, I will also not use your name
Quote from: Imaginos;1055260Then again, one of the mods is highly offensive and abrasive as well. I made the following comment on FB after he was railing at people and cursing at them.
This meant I got targeted by him. He made multiple attempts to post about how my head was up my ass, along with a lot of other inflammatory comments. Summary is that I said that I could not view his moderating as anything but a factor of his personal beliefs the way he espoused and carried himself on facebook. He went off saying he wasn't representing TBP on FB. My counter was that he was, esp since his moderator name was his real name for a long time. Anyway, essentially they have armed themselves with an echo-chamber of self-affirmation and bullying if you do not agree. Of course, the secret to avoid that, is to just discuss games instead of anything non-gaming.
EDIT: I removed the link to the specific post because he did not use my name after I said he could not. But I will say this, he posted the following on his own personal page. Which goes to show how much he wanted to color the truth of what happened so he looks like the hero instead of just another hypocritical bully.
Yeah see, his attitude isn't really one you can adopt when your site's rules have this gem in there:
QuoteValues/Rules & Off-Site Conduct: We draw a distinction between our site's values and rules. We infract based on rules violations if they occur on our site. If you call someone a shitbag in TRO, that is a rules violation on our site and you'll probably catch an infraction. If you call someone a shitbag on ENWorld, that's their problem. However, values matter regardless of where the conduct occurs, and social media now makes drawing distinct lines between identities across multiple online platforms impractical. If you are an alt-right racist, self-identified incel, white supremacist, Nazi, sexual predator, stalker, doxxer, or otherwise demonstrate offsite that you hold values incompatible with the RPGnet community, and we can identify you to a reasonable degree of certainty, we will ban you from RPGnet as based on the fact that you posting to RPGnet is a violation of our values.
TL;DR: We don't police off-site rules violations, but we will ban people over unbridgeable divides in values as demonstrated by off-site conduct.
It's that ever-deepening well of hypocrisy that bothers me much more than any moderation I've personally faced.
Quote from: ponta1010;1055168I must admit to being in an identical situation. Does anyone know of a reliable way of measuring what their active membership is? I go there every so often and look at what's 'changed' in the thread topics listing, and changes in this seem to have slowed to a crawl in the last year.
I don't even look anymore. I recently deleted all of my subscribed threads(just to ensure I didn't get email notifications from the site anymore), logged out, and that was that. Oh, and I removed the TRO feed from my feed reader, too. Interesting threads were fewer and farther between, and you never knew when one of them would go from pleasant discussion to political. They even have(or had) a rule about not injecting politics into threads that weren't already political, but if you said the "right things," that rule didn't apply to you.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1055176The fact Bailywolf has been so thoroughly indoctrinated breaks my heart though.
Yes, he was a pretty cool dude once upon a time. I got to play games run by him IRL in the Times Before. I also got to play with other mods like RandomNerd and Bethdrgyn back then. And a few other TBP regulars that I'm not sure if they ever were mods or not. There were a few years there that were full of
actual gaming with quite a few of these people. To a lot of people on the forums, they're just random posters and faceless mods and stuff, but like . . . they're my old gaming buds! I have faces and memories to go with the screen names, and it's like . . . I don't even know where I was going, man. Just started rambling. Sorry. It just sucks.
Quote from: Imaginos;1055260...But I will say this, he posted the following on his own personal page. Which goes to show how much he wanted to color the truth of what happened so he looks like the hero instead of just another hypocritical bully.
DAMN if his post doesn't look like a "press conference." :D
Quote from: Imaginos;1055260He went off saying he wasn't representing TBP on FB.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GloomyBrownGrison-size_restricted.gif)
Any mod from TBP lost the value of that card when they announced they were going to mod people for off-site behavior.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1055176Wow.
The fact Bailywolf has been so thoroughly indoctrinated breaks my heart though.
Bailywolf is a serious case of drinking the kool-aid. It's been a while, but as far as I remember he was not the most aggressive SJW (anybody remember Logicninja some years ago?), but rather one of those who seemed to have 'seen the light' of feminism and such. Bailywolf started a thread about his feeling of guilt for having a man's sexuality in a world that hates women. Seriously.
Quote from: Trond;1055309Bailywolf is a serious case of drinking the kool-aid. It's been a while, but as far as I remember he was not the most aggressive SJW (anybody remember Logicninja some years ago?), but rather one of those who seemed to have 'seen the light' of feminism and such. Bailywolf started a thread about his feeling of guilt for having a man's sexuality in a world that hates women. Seriously.
Not defending the person yet I think it's less drinking the kool-aid and more afraid of having the mob turning against him which they will if your not part of their mindless herd. I have a friend who acts the same way. Virtue signalling, denouncing his own sexuality. Bending over backwards to accommodate fellow SJWs. Up until recently he never gave a crap about any of that. Suddenly to be part of the cool kids club he threw any shred of dignity he had left. Which is sad to see.
Quote from: sureshot;1055342Not defending the person yet I think it's less drinking the kool-aid and more afraid of having the mob turning against him which they will if your not part of their mindless herd. I have a friend who acts the same way. Virtue signalling, denouncing his own sexuality. Bending over backwards to accommodate fellow SJWs. Up until recently he never gave a crap about any of that. Suddenly to be part of the cool kids club he threw any shred of dignity he had left. Which is sad to see.
It really is disheartening to discover how many people will go along with nonsense beliefs and behaviours they don't share in a desperate effort to earn some esteem in the eyes of people who don't genuinely care much about them.
Self-loathing is a helluva drug.
Quote from: sureshot;1055342Not defending the person yet I think it's less drinking the kool-aid and more afraid of having the mob turning against him which they will if your not part of their mindless herd. I have a friend who acts the same way. Virtue signalling, denouncing his own sexuality. Bending over backwards to accommodate fellow SJWs. Up until recently he never gave a crap about any of that. Suddenly to be part of the cool kids club he threw any shred of dignity he had left. Which is sad to see.
You actually know a real person like that? Oh, man! That's
got to be mind-boggling to witness.
Correction I knew a person. Once I figurrd out he could not be reasoned with he was out of my life. I'm in my 40s and to old for that shit.
What gets me is that some think they it makes them more attractive to women. When most if not all women see it gor what it is.
You know, all this anger on TBP towards ACKS has simply made me more interested in it. "Social Justice: The best free marketing since forever!". :)
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1055417You know, all this anger on TBP towards ACKS has simply made me more interested in it. "Social Justice: The best free marketing since forever!". :)
Of course. Social Justice has become, among other things, the minister character from Footlose.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1055423Of course. Social Justice has become, among other things, the minister character from Footlose.
All things revolve around Kevin Bacon.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1055426All things revolve around Kevin Bacon.
Or any form of bacon really...
Quote from: HappyDaze;1055432Or any form of bacon really...
I fucking love bacon...
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1055443I fucking love bacon...
I lost 60 pounds this year thanks (in part) to bacon. I am not kidding. Bacon is the absolute
best. :D
I said it once and I will say it again, but FUCK RPG.NET!
I'm going to buy and play ACKS now just to spite those Commie motherfuckers!
Punk was a mistake. Big Purple is proof of that.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1055449Punk was a mistake. Big Purple is proof of that.
? ? ? ?
Quote from: TJS;1055450? ? ? ?
He's off his meds again.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1055451He's off his meds again.
This seems to be his baseline.
I don't know how realizing how much the Punk subculture sucks is indicative of whether or not I'm off my meds.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1055457I don't know how realizing how much the Punk subculture sucks is indicative of whether or not I'm off my meds.
It's more the non-sequiter - what do you think punk and TBP have to do with each other?
Jazz was a mistake. Walmart is proof of that.
Hip Hop was a mistake. Trump is proof of that.
Sapphic lyrics were a mistake. Pandas are proof of that. :)
You take my point.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1055447I lost 60 pounds this year thanks (in part) to bacon. I am not kidding. Bacon is the absolute best. :D
It's a delicious fat, my friend! Absolutely delicious. Have you had a taco shell made of bacon? 'Murca!
Congratulations on losing weight! It's an awesome feeling to shed pounds.
Quote from: TJS;1055459Jazz was a mistake. Walmart is proof of that.
Hip Hop was a mistake. Trump is proof of that.
Sapphic lyrics were a mistake. Pandas are proof of that.
Huh, the more you know, eh?
Quote from: TJS;1055459It's more the non-sequiter - what do you think punk and TBP have to do with each other?
Jazz was a mistake. Walmart is proof of that.
Hip Hop was a mistake. Trump is proof of that.
Sapphic lyrics were a mistake. Pandas are proof of that. :)
You take my point.
Punk ideology is attractive to regressive leftist hipster types, and a lot of the RPG.net elites are Goths and Punks, most notably Darren MacLerran (AKA Cannibal Smiley), degenerate doxxer Olivia Hill, and the disgraced tree-jumper Black Hat Matt.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1055189No member of a mob has ever considered the possibility that they might be in the wrong or that their "allies" might turn on them. That's been true since there's been more than three people on earth.
Yeah, but I didn't think rpg.net was or would become a mob.
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1055301DAMN if his post doesn't look like a "press conference." :D
As long as it isn't in Trouble Tickets, it isn't against the rules.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1055307Any mod from TBP lost the value of that card when they announced they were going to mod people for off-site behavior.
This is why using their real names and aliases can no longer be considered #Doxxing. If they're spying on your feed to enforce conduct elsewhere, you have a right to know who they are.
Quote from: Haffrung;1055378It really is disheartening to discover how many people will go along with nonsense beliefs and behaviours they don't share in a desperate effort to earn some esteem in the eyes of people who don't genuinely care much about them.
High School in a nutshell.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1055423Of course. Social Justice has become, among other things, the minister character from Footlose.
Zero degrees of Kevin Bacon.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1055466Punk ideology is attractive to regressive leftist hipster types, and a lot of the RPG.net elites are Goths and Punks, most notably Darren MacLerran (AKA Cannibal Smiley), degenerate doxxer Olivia Hill, and the disgraced tree-jumper Black Hat Matt.
They also seems attracted to role playing games...
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1055484They also seems attracted to role playing games...
Only because they are easily attracted to easily bullied targets.
I appreciate the support. If anybody on TheRPGSite wants to purchase the physical books, email me at alex@autarch.co (it's .co, not .com) and I'll offer you a 15% discounted price, free PDF with each book, and free shipping in the US. Fight on!
Quote from: amacris;1055492I appreciate the support. If anybody on TheRPGSite wants to purchase the physical books, email me at alex@autarch.co (it's .co, not .com) and I'll offer you a 15% discounted price, free PDF with each book, and free shipping in the US. Fight on!
Is that a better deal for you than your cut from an Amazon sale? I don't care anything about a PDF, and Amazon is easier for me, but if it puts money in your pocket, I'll gladly do it the other way.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1055466Punk ideology is attractive to regressive leftist hipster types, and a lot of the RPG.net elites are Goths and Punks, most notably Darren MacLerran (AKA Cannibal Smiley), degenerate doxxer Olivia Hill, and the disgraced tree-jumper Black Hat Matt.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2884[/ATTACH]
Not that early punks were actually neo-nazis - the swastika was more of a fuck you anti-authoritarian thing. Of course many punks went left - but that was also in many cases a fuck-you anti-authoritarian thing.
Moderating a rpg forum which bans people incessantly = not punk. (But it shouldn't be surprising they're fake punks - they're also fake leftists).
But you can hardly blame the punk movement for having such energy that half a century later a bunch of hipster wannabees want to appropriate it.
Quote from: tjs;1055502[attach=config]2884[/attach]
jesus christ, it's a swastika! Everybody start eating your own children so the nazis can't get them first!
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1055484They also seems attracted to role playing games...
The only roleplaying most of Tangency do is pretending to be gamers. The typical Tangencyite is a gamer in the same way a Benedictine monk is heterosexual, in theory only.
Well, unless you count the guys in fursuits as roleplaying.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1055499Is that a better deal for you than your cut from an Amazon sale? I don't care anything about a PDF, and Amazon is easier for me, but if it puts money in your pocket, I'll gladly do it the other way.
It puts a bit more into my pocket if you order direct but when you add in the time/handling it's so marginal that if you're Amazon Prime and getting free shipping, it's all about the same. Either way, thank you for the support!
Quote from: sureshot;1055342Not defending the person yet I think it's less drinking the kool-aid and more afraid of having the mob turning against him which they will if your not part of their mindless herd. I have a friend who acts the same way. Virtue signalling, denouncing his own sexuality. Bending over backwards to accommodate fellow SJWs. Up until recently he never gave a crap about any of that. Suddenly to be part of the cool kids club he threw any shred of dignity he had left. Which is sad to see.
Well, in general I agree that the feeling of belonging is extremely important to most people, but I have to disagree here about Bailywolf. Last I saw, Bailywolf had become one of the worst preachers over there, starting threads on the topic of the "problematic" male sexuality, shaming guys for saying they like hot women etc.
Another (perhaps related) thing was that he seemed paranoid about his children's toys, so he said that he makes the toys for his children rather than buying them. On its own it could be seen as a good thing, but I suspect that he's trying to shield his kids from outside influence. Maybe I'm reading too much into that though, but I do know some parents are paranoid about giving girls anything that is pink for instance.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1055466Punk ideology is attractive to regressive leftist hipster types, and a lot of the RPG.net elites are Goths and Punks, most notably Darren MacLerran (AKA Cannibal Smiley), degenerate doxxer Olivia Hill, and the disgraced tree-jumper Black Hat Matt.
I like many bands that were influenced by punk, but I don't like punk itself. Every time I listen to it I get a strong vibe of "I hate you mommy and daddy!", sometimes almost literally.
Quote from: amacris;1055525It puts a bit more into my pocket if you order direct but when you add in the time/handling it's so marginal that if you're Amazon Prime and getting free shipping, it's all about the same. Either way, thank you for the support!
Ordered it from Amazon this afternoon. Looking forward to it. It's the only game product I've bought so far this year.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1055561Ordered it from Amazon this afternoon. Looking forward to it. It's the only game product I've bought so far this year.
Thanks very much! We offer free PDF with a hardcopy purchase so hit me up if you want the digital book.
Quote from: TJS;1055502[ATTACH=CONFIG]2884[/ATTACH]
Not that early punks were actually neo-nazis - the swastika was more of a fuck you anti-authoritarian thing. Of course many punks went left - but that was also in many cases a fuck-you anti-authoritarian thing.
Moderating a rpg forum which bans people incessantly = not punk. (But it shouldn't be surprising they're fake punks - they're also fake leftists).
But you can hardly blame the punk movement for having such energy that half a century later a bunch of hipster wannabees want to appropriate it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MkRuV0aCcI
Quote from: amacris;1055585Thanks very much! We offer free PDF with a hardcopy purchase so hit me up if you want the digital book.
What about prior rpg net purchases @?
Quote from: amacris;1055492I appreciate the support. If anybody on TheRPGSite wants to purchase the physical books, email me at alex@autarch.co (it's .co, not .com) and I'll offer you a 15% discounted price, free PDF with each book, and free shipping in the US. Fight on!
That's a great deal. Thank you very much!
Quote from: amacris;1055585Thanks very much! We offer free PDF with a hardcopy purchase so hit me up if you want the digital book.
Curses, foiled again! I was so amused by the shitstorm the game had caused I went straight to DriveThru and bought the pdfs just as a fuck off to the SJWs who seem to be trying to tell me what I can and can't play. Oh well...
Quote from: Derabar;1055860Curses, foiled again! I was so amused by the shitstorm the game had caused I went straight to DriveThru and bought the pdfs just as a fuck off to the SJWs who seem to be trying to tell me what I can and can't play. Oh well...
You still did good, anyhow.
Managed to find a games shop over here that has a copy of the core book so I've ordered it, and have backed Autarch's Patreon as well.
What are folks' opinions on Heroic Fantasy?
Quote from: Derabar;1056487Managed to find a games shop over here that has a copy of the core book so I've ordered it, and have backed Autarch's Patreon as well.
What are folks' opinions on Heroic Fantasy?
Awesome, with a free side order of awesomesauce.
Quote from: Derabar;1056487Managed to find a games shop over here that has a copy of the core book so I've ordered it, and have backed Autarch's Patreon as well.
What are folks' opinions on Heroic Fantasy?
It's pretty awesome. It's a bit more dense than I'd like, but nothing is bad in it, so it's worth the eyestrain.
Actually that's not fair; if ever I were going to run a middle-earth campaign, this would be a necessity. You could do the Silmarillion justice with the contents, it's really fantastically designed. You can have Tarzan fight Glaurung. I want you to picture that, and ask yourself why you
wouldn't buy that book. What could possibly be more worth your money? Unless you're buying
the antidote, you chose wrong
Quote from: Derabar;1056487Managed to find a games shop over here that has a copy of the core book so I've ordered it, and have backed Autarch's Patreon as well.
What are folks' opinions on Heroic Fantasy?
I loaded up on the ACKS pdfs during a conveniently timed Drivethru electronic sale.
I am not a big fan of level / class based games but I am liking what ACKS has done with the rules. The Heroic Fantasy Handbook looks to me to be well thought out and a worthwhile addition if you like the core rules and the style of fantasy it supports. I will definitely be getting hard copies of both the core book and Heroic Fantasy in the near future.
If you haven't bought ACKS yet, do it now!
We must spite the Neo-Bolshevik fuckwads at RPG.net
Commie Punks Fuck Off!
Again, it would be stupid to buy any game just because of its politics.
NOT buying a game because of the politics of the person who designed it can have some reason to it, but if we were to buy games we have no real interest in as an act of political support, that would be stupid.
Buy ACKS if you want a good OSR game that does what ACKS does, and you can buy it with a clear conscience knowing that the designer supports Free Speech and doesn't despise you.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1056816Again, it would be stupid to buy any game just because of its politics.
NOT buying a game because of the politics of the person who designed it can have some reason to it, but if we were to buy games we have no real interest in as an act of political support, that would be stupid.
Buy ACKS if you want a good OSR game that does what ACKS does, and you can buy it with a clear conscience knowing that the designer supports Free Speech and doesn't despise you.
Yes. This
If you want to use your money to support a political cause then make some kind of political donation. It might actually have some tiny impact.
If you want to use it to buy a game, then buy a game.
I have nothing against ACKS and I enjoy my Rules Cyclopedia, but OSR isn't my cup of tea right now.
I would be a sucker for any Savage Worlds supplement that focused on dungeon fantasy (and was still in print. My queue for campaigns is so long now even with two weekend groups that my purchase has to come with coffee table art)
I was actually a little annoyed that GURPS doesn't bundle the PDF with the physical book purchase. I may have actually used their store if they offered that instead of letting Amazon take a cut.
I don't get how anyone who likes D&D style fantasy could like savage worlds better than OSR games.
As for RC vs ACKS, I LOVE the RC, and would usually pick that over ACKS if those were my choices to run, but if it was a game that focused a lot on managing domains, I'd go with ACKS because in that particular element of the rules it's better (and note that the RC did the best job with domain management of any official D&D ruleset).
Quote from: RPGPundit;1057162I don't get how anyone who likes D&D style fantasy could like savage worlds better than OSR games.
As for RC vs ACKS, I LOVE the RC, and would usually pick that over ACKS if those were my choices to run, but if it was a game that focused a lot on managing domains, I'd go with ACKS because in that particular element of the rules it's better (and note that the RC did the best job with domain management of any official D&D ruleset).
Hit points (and classes). I do not feel that they add anything.
Savage Worlds wound system and exploding damage die makes every trap feel really dangerous even if you are really powerful. A level 26 fighter with 100 HP does not care about a 3d6 hidden spike trap, a Legendary Savage Worlds fighter with super powers and 30 toughness could die from a 3d6 hidden spike trap (it's not likely but the
could keeps players worried). For D&D, if I take damage, I am finding a way to heal it. So most traps just consume a background resource or I am too low level to afford such things.
I also much prefer managing monsters without needing to keep track of HP, it makes my job as GM much easier.
But when it comes to Dungeon Fantasy, I prefer higher power / higher competence characters. Most OSR fans seem to stick to low levels. Which I much rather be playing/GMing novice Wild Cards through a dungeon than level 1 anything.
I do not have anything against managing resources, but HP has always been such a weird abstract "resource" that I am really happy to give it up. Not having it does make "Boss fights" hard to pull off, but for that I tend to just smash a bunch of Wild Cards together, call it one monster, and move on.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1057162I don't get how anyone who likes D&D style fantasy could like savage worlds better than OSR games.
As for RC vs ACKS, I LOVE the RC, and would usually pick that over ACKS if those were my choices to run, but if it was a game that focused a lot on managing domains, I'd go with ACKS because in that particular element of the rules it's better (and note that the RC did the best job with domain management of any official D&D ruleset).
For me ACKS is what I wish B/X would have become rather than the Companion and Masters not come along. Or maybe what AD&D might have done.
Still, it's great and I love it too. Recommend the Players Companion though, if you want to create your own classes for unique campaigns.
Talking of B/X and what ifs, did you ever get a chance to look at the B/X companion?
Quote from: Rhedyn;1056845I have nothing against ACKS and I enjoy my Rules Cyclopedia, but OSR isn't my cup of tea right now.
I would be a sucker for any Savage Worlds supplement that focused on dungeon fantasy (and was still in print. My queue for campaigns is so long now even with two weekend groups that my purchase has to come with coffee table art)
I was actually a little annoyed that GURPS doesn't bundle the PDF with the physical book purchase. I may have actually used their store if they offered that instead of letting Amazon take a cut.
I spent most of my SW fantasy time with Hellfrost, which does have a bit of dungeon exploring here and there. And while I haven't read it, Gold & Glory came out not too long ago. It might be worth looking into: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/223242/GoldGlory-Seven-Deadly-Dungeons (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/223242/GoldGlory-Seven-Deadly-Dungeons)
Quote from: Brand55;1057254I spent most of my SW fantasy time with Hellfrost, which does have a bit of dungeon exploring here and there. And while I haven't read it, Gold & Glory came out not too long ago. It might be worth looking into: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/223242/GoldGlory-Seven-Deadly-Dungeons (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/223242/GoldGlory-Seven-Deadly-Dungeons)
Oh looks like they finally got the POD set up.
Quote from: Brand55;1057254I spent most of my SW fantasy time with Hellfrost, which does have a bit of dungeon exploring here and there. And while I haven't read it, Gold & Glory came out not too long ago. It might be worth looking into: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/223242/GoldGlory-Seven-Deadly-Dungeons (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/223242/GoldGlory-Seven-Deadly-Dungeons)
I ran a Savage Worlds Hellfrost campaign for several years that's currently in hiatus (we lost a couple of players), and I also run an active ACKS campaign using Dwimmermount. My players and I have enjoyed them both, and they both can be played in a gritty OSR style even though only ACKS is actually an OSR ruleset. I think playing an old school like dungeon crawl depends a lot on the setting and play style at the table. Rules matter, too, but nothing in Savage Worlds precludes running such a game.
Quote from: wmarshal;1057281I ran a Savage Worlds Hellfrost campaign for several years that's currently in hiatus (we lost a couple of players), and I also run an active ACKS campaign using Dwimmermount. My players and I have enjoyed them both, and they both can be played in a gritty OSR style even though only ACKS is actually an OSR ruleset. I think playing an old school like dungeon crawl depends a lot on the setting and play style at the table. Rules matter, too, but nothing in Savage Worlds precludes running such a game.
For sure. My Hellfrost campaign was more of a high-powered delve into world-traveling and giant-slaying, but there were times the party had to delve into old ruins or underground tunnels. I was quite fond of the simple, easily modified system for traps that the game used, too. I used it often for more generic traps then worried about sketching out something worthy of Grimtooth when I needed something more unique.
I've never played ACKS but it's one of those games I've been tempted to get many times. I think the thing that's kept me from pulling the trigger is that I know about half my group would never go for it. I love the concept, but there's just too much detail and math involved for people who just want to toss dice and kill stuff.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1057162I don't get how anyone who likes D&D style fantasy could like savage worlds better than OSR games.
That's simple, you could be top rank in SW and a trap can still kill you. No inflating hit point mechanic, every character feels competent, but is not an overpowered demigod, even at the highest 'level'. It does the adventuring is dangerous feeling long than D&D ever does.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1057162As for RC vs ACKS, I LOVE the RC, and would usually pick that over ACKS if those were my choices to run, but if it was a game that focused a lot on managing domains, I'd go with ACKS because in that particular element of the rules it's better (and note that the RC did the best job with domain management of any official D&D ruleset).
And isn't mixing and matching systems the whole point, anyway? Use what you think works, tweak if it doesn't.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1057306That's simple, you could be top rank in SW and a trap can still kill you.
In Lion & Dragon you could be a 12th level fighter and a lucky shot from a 0-level peasant could kill you. You don't need to go outside the OSR to get that.
That's a cherry picked example though. Certainly not the case with D&D. Which was probably one of the main drivers for the proliferation of home brew crit tables that appeared - don't recall there ever being anything 'official' along those lines, so unless you'd parsed the grappling rules, then Joe fighter could stand in front of Bob the peasant in a frilly dress and be in virtually no danger.
Quote from: Derabar;1057770That's a cherry picked example though. Certainly not the case with D&D.
Surprise rules.
Thought it couldn't be more than 6 segments though (although I haven't played 1e for a long time, and I confess to not having played enough B/X to know how it handles surprise...)?
Pundit's 12th level fighter is going to have, what, 50 - 60 HP at least, so Bob's going to need a halberd and a better fucking D20 than I've got to get through that lot before getting creamed.
EDIT: and he did say 'lucky shot' which implies one hit.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1057700In Lion & Dragon you could be a 12th level fighter and a lucky shot from a 0-level peasant could kill you. You don't need to go outside the OSR to get that.
You don't need to be lucky to kill a high ranked Savage World's character, it helps, but you don't need it. And it's with basic attacks. Hell, pushing a book shelf can do serious damage to a SW hero.
If that were the case, then no one would ever reach 12th level. They'd have been killed by a peasant long ago.
IIRC, it was EGG that pointed out the obvious about critical hits - that they are going to happen to the PCs far more than anyone else, simply because they are the ones in every combat.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1057877You don't need to be lucky to kill a high ranked Savage World's character, it helps, but you don't need it. And it's with basic attacks. Hell, pushing a book shelf can do serious damage to a SW hero.
Your high ranked Savage Worlds character is not even necessarily harder to kill than he was as a Novice if you never invested in more defenses.
So what does ACKS domain rules do, or do differently, that BECMI's did not?
Quote from: Derabar;1057770don't recall there ever being anything 'official' along those lines,
So what, how that matters now? Lion & Dragon added a rule that made it more gritty. I have a rule in my own take, the Majestic Fantasy RPG (http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Majestic%20Fantasy%20Basic%20RPG%20Rev%2008.pdf), that could result in massive damage in one shot. In conjunction with the low number of hit points, could result in a 0 level peasant taking out a 12th level fighter*.
Now that criticism is valid if you want to talk about OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, Swords & Wizardry all of which follows an earlier edition closely. However my own rules, Lion & Dragon, and others illustrate that particularly hard to bolt on a system that allows for one shot kills in a way that is consistent with the rest of the rules.
*My rule is if you roll a natural 20, roll another to hit roll. If you miss you roll damage and do double damage. If you hit you do max damage. If you roll a natural 20 again, you get to make another to hit roll and increase your damage accordingly. The most I seen was four nat 20s in a roll followed by a miss. So the player rolls his damage and added four times his max damage. I think he did around 45 points of damage in that blow.
While not as straightfoward as other crit system, the players really like the exploding dice part. The chance of rolling successive nat 20s.
Quote from: Omega;1057914So what does ACKS domain rules do, or do differently, that BECMI's did not?
They are well thought out and designed consistently to work with the treasure rules. The RC/BECMI rules are more slapdash. It not a dramatic difference but I like the ACKS rules because I can dig into the assumptions, alter them, make it work for my Majestic Wilderlands, and still use most of the mechanics from ACKS.
For example the trade rules I use.
Merchant Rules (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx9oLF40m-b8ZFRlN1dZR2VLbUU/view?usp=sharing)
Quote from: JeremyR;1057881If that were the case, then no one would ever reach 12th level. They'd have been killed by a peasant long ago.
And how often does this actually happen in D&D? The thing we're really talking about is ebb and flow of combat - risk/reward and the mechanics that underpin those things in the game. d20 is a little more abstracted in this regard than SW.
The reality is a 12th level Fighter has *zero* to fear from a 0-lvl peasant. A Savage World's character-equivalent is a Heroic/Legendary Ranked character. Likewise they have very little to fear. But Savage Worlds rules have more options and potential for a 0-Level character to actually affect that 12th level character.
Even a Natural 20 from a 0-lvl Peasant isn't going to drop a 12th-level Fighter *in combat*. It's impossible without GM intervention, by the rules. In Savage World's it is pretty unlikely, BUT it is very possible to hurt them so badly that for the rest of the session (or at least until they get healed) that character is going to have some fairly nasty problems.
This is where it edges into HP vs. Death Spiral mechanics etc. But that's tied up firmly into the mechanics that underpins the assumptions of the game. Savage Worlds is a bit more... interesting? "Realistic" (you know what I mean, right?). Has more verisimilitude. blah blah. in this regard.
This scales up and down outside of a singular 0-lvl Peasant. A pack of five 0-lvl Peasants pose very little threat. 25% chance of getting a crit isn't going to save them from cold-steel splitting them in half and getting stacked like bloody Lincoln Logs to a 12th-lvl Fighter. In SW there are a lot of other considerations - sure the SW equivalent is going to smoke those Peasants - but with Gang Up rules in SW, there is a *significant* possibility they can seriously hurt the SW Warrior... or possibly kill them. Likely? PROBABLY NOT, all things being equal. But it's *significantly* higher in chance than a d20/OSR peasant pack, based purely on the mechanics. And yes, there's always the chance of a flat out Exploding Die killing the shit out of the SW Warrior. That's always in play, but they have to get several layers of defense mechanics first. (They gotta hit, and they gotta do enough damage to get through that Toughness - which is where the Exploding Dice has to defy some pretty big probabilities).
Quote from: JeremyR;1057881IIRC, it was EGG that pointed out the obvious about critical hits - that they are going to happen to the PCs far more than anyone else, simply because they are the ones in every combat.
Sure. But then going back to St. Gygax would force me to ask "Which Crit Rules are we using?". If it's just double-damage, that's far less meaningful than some of the Crit-Rules that have appeared in Dragon Magazine, which certainly were around during St. Gygax's reign. SW's "crits" and Exploding Dice are much more tactically dangerous over all for this *exact* same reason - It's the PC's that have to deal with each and every single attack coming their way, and any single of one of them is a potential dirt-knap.
It's actually one of the various reasons I *like* SW over d20. Not perfect, but it "feels" good and the mechanics back up that "feeling".
Quote from: estar;1057928*My rule is if you roll a natural 20, roll another to hit roll. If you miss you roll damage and do double damage. If you hit you do max damage. If you roll a natural 20 again, you get to make another to hit roll and increase your damage accordingly. The most I seen was four nat 20s in a roll followed by a miss. So the player rolls his damage and added four times his max damage. I think he did around 45 points of damage in that blow.
While not as straightfoward as other crit system, the players really like the exploding dice part. The chance of rolling successive nat 20s.
I *like* this.
It's kinda roll-heavy, but screw it. Have you considered just allowing exploding damage dice in general? Let Natural 20's be double-damage, and just let all damage dice explode on max numbers?
That would pretty much be SW<>d20. I'd love that in D&D.
Quote from: tenbones;1057938I *like* this.
It's kinda roll-heavy, but screw it. Have you considered just allowing exploding damage dice in general? Let Natural 20's be double-damage, and just let all damage dice explode on max numbers?
That would pretty much be SW<>d20. I'd love that in D&D.
Yes but it is overkill in OD&D, character don't have a lot of hit points. Having damage dice explode would dramatically increase the one shot kills.
Quote from: Derabar;1057770That's a cherry picked example though. Certainly not the case with D&D.
My point was that there are modifications you can make that allow that. And there's already OSR games that can be used to do that.
Quote from: JeremyR;1057881If that were the case, then no one would ever reach 12th level. They'd have been killed by a peasant long ago.
Depends on how you do criticals. And in my Albion campaign I had characters who reached 12th level. Though the game setting is such that 12th level is super-high.
Quote from: estar;1057994Yes but it is overkill in OD&D, character don't have a lot of hit points. Having damage dice explode would dramatically increase the one shot kills.
Very true. In Savage Worlds and L5R it works because you simply have thresholds to beat and it's done in degrees. ALthough you do get silly moments like my Savage Rifts Glitterboy coring Godzilla's balls (if he had any) like an apple with a single, admittedly lucky damage roll with the cannon.
It depends on the type of D&D game you want to run, however.
For those who care...
After removing his toughness modifier, the MACH 5 superheated shotgun slugs still did almost 10x the amount of 'hits' (4 for every creature) in that blast. Huzzah for exploding D12s. We also determined that there's a new cave in a mountain about 2 miles out that smells like Giant Lizard Tail.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1058180Very true. In Savage Worlds and L5R it works because you simply have thresholds to beat and it's done in degrees. ALthough you do get silly moments like my Savage Rifts Glitterboy coring Godzilla's balls (if he had any) like an apple with a single, admittedly lucky damage roll with the cannon.
It depends on the type of D&D game you want to run, however.
For those who care...
After removing his toughness modifier, the MACH 5 superheated shotgun slugs still did almost 10x the amount of 'hits' (4 for every creature) in that blast. Huzzah for exploding D12s. We also determined that there's a new cave in a mountain about 2 miles out that smells like Giant Lizard Tail.
Ah yes Savage Rifts, the AD&D of Savage Worlds.
Fun times.
I always thought the relatively predictable death rate in D&D was sort of the point, or at least intentional. Kind of sucks when Lancelot gets taken out by a random rock throwing peasant.
SW is not at all unique in regards to the idea everyone is vulnerable, RQ / BRP, GURPS, HERO, Warhammer all have the same potential. As does Rolemaster which is pretty close to what you would get by putting gnarly crit charts into D&D. The discussion about "how many hit points" had many examples of higher risk D&D / OSR modifications.
Quote from: estar;1057994Yes but it is overkill in OD&D, character don't have a lot of hit points. Having damage dice explode would dramatically increase the one shot kills.
Good point. Recovery time in OD&D is not quite as fast as SW. But I feel you could thread that needle with a few tweaks... although it's dangerously close to going overboard.
Quote from: Toadmaster;1058211I always thought the relatively predictable death rate in D&D was sort of the point, or at least intentional. Kind of sucks when Lancelot gets taken out by a random rock throwing peasant.
SW is not at all unique in regards to the idea everyone is vulnerable, RQ / BRP, GURPS, HERO, Warhammer all have the same potential. As does Rolemaster which is pretty close to what you would get by putting gnarly crit charts into D&D. The discussion about "how many hit points" had many examples of higher risk D&D / OSR modifications.
Well the real rub for me is how much mechanical wankery is needed to get you to that point?
I agree that all these things can occur, but the context is where the rubber hits the road. What does a rock-throwing peasant have to do to kill Lancelot in my D&D games?
First and foremost - he has to get past my GM prerogative "Am I seriously going to start a combat over this superfluous attempt at impotent rage from a peasant at Lancelot?" Probably not.
Most silliness like this stops cold right here.
If I'm going to actually go through the rolls for it... it better be for a good reason. So you know, in D&D it's pointless.
Not that people will be surprised anymore, but TPB is back at it. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?834561-Warning-for-Baron-Opal-Thread-Ban&p=22142528#post22142528) Someone just got thread banned for saying that the OSR movement doesn't have a nazi problem after someone else claims it does and uses ACKS as the example. To them it's just splitting hairs about how much of a nazi you are.
These people are sick.
Quote from: tenbones;1058227What does a rock-throwing peasant have to do to kill Lancelot in my D&D games?
Throw a
big rock?
Quote from: rgalex;1058244Not that people will be surprised anymore, but TPB is back at it. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?834561-Warning-for-Baron-Opal-Thread-Ban&p=22142528#post22142528) Someone just got thread banned for saying that the OSR movement doesn't have a nazi problem after someone else claims it does and uses ACKS as the example. To them it's just splitting hairs about how much of a nazi you are.
Finally chased down the thread the ban came from (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?834423-The-Old-Shames-of-D-amp-D/page25).
To me the comment Baron Opal was objecting to was a group attack (essentially "All OSR players are Nazis"). Sadly given the political climate over there this comment is de rigueur and acceptable.
How long before all OSR players are banned.
Quote from: tenbones;1058227Well the real rub for me is how much mechanical wankery is needed to get you to that point?
I agree that all these things can occur, but the context is where the rubber hits the road. What does a rock-throwing peasant have to do to kill Lancelot in my D&D games?
First and foremost - he has to get past my GM prerogative "Am I seriously going to start a combat over this superfluous attempt at impotent rage from a peasant at Lancelot?" Probably not.
Most silliness like this stops cold right here.
If I'm going to actually go through the rolls for it... it better be for a good reason. So you know, in D&D it's pointless.
It would be fairly pointless otherwise as well. An untrained peasant is not likely to do much harm, assuming they can even hit the target. Idiots tossing out this argument of "wah wah D&D isnt realistic!" conveniently keep glossing over the little fact that HP are not meat. They represent the accumulation of skill/knowledge and luck to avoid being hit or at least seriously hit. Which is a real world thing. I know I know! "Reality is unrealistic!"
All that said why should Lance fear the lowly peasant? A couple of reasons.
A: Being killed outside of combat: AD&D has both the surprise system which can allow an attacker potentially a couple of free attacks and especially the coup-de-grace which is an insta-kill no matter what your HP are. And of course insta-killing someone who is asleep. All the peasant has to do is sneak up on AD&D Lance with his oodles of HP (141) and stick a knife in him. Dead.
B: Numbers: One peasant vs Lance? Not likely to do anything. But several peasants? That may be a very different story. They can do it the hard way and whittle him down in a mob beating. Or they can overbear him and coup-de-grace him. This has happened for real.
C: Sic the militia on him!: That is what they are there for after all. Even a little training can make a big difference. Add in better equipment and chances get increasingly better of them being able to either whittle down or overbear him.
Albedo and Boot Hill still has them beat for sheer lethality of combat.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1058251Throw a big rock?
Its what we invented the trebuchet for. :eek:
Quote from: KingCheops;1058248These people are sick.
Pretty much imo. The only way for them to function in a group is to make it a echo chamber. Half of the bullshit they spout would never be accepted yet alone tolerated at my table or most sane normal moderate gamers.
One of them " you have to change the evil races in D&D to anything but evil because they represent the native americans of a fantasy setting and should not be needlessly killed off "
My response and most others " no I'm not doing that"
"Why not. You have to because reasons and feels"
" i said no either accept it or move on"
I began reading the shame of D&D thread. Its not that hard to bypass a permaban espcially on a separate home computer. A more deluded insane bunch I have never seen. The sheer amount of worry and pearl clutching was and is pathethic.
Quote from: sureshot;1058280I began reading the shame of D&D thread. Its not that hard to bypass a permaban espcially on a separate home computer. A more deluded insane bunch I have never seen. The sheer amount of worry and pearl clutching was and is pathethic.
I tried to guess what the topics would be before reading the thread. Predicted most of them:
Orcs, check.
Drow, check.
Strength caps for female PCs, check.
Vistani from Ravenloft, check.
Girdle of masc/fem, check.
Tolkien, check.
Aleena the Cleric: not to be found! Interesting.
But there were some new ones:
Runner up: D&D is really about white people (the PCs) killing native americans (the monsters).
Winner: Pathfinder's orgres are "hicksploitation." (I was surpised that SJWs consider hillbillies a protected class. Their word, not mine. I prefer Applachian-American.)
Quote from: Aglondir;1058285Orcs, check.
Drow, check.
Strength caps for female PCs, check.
Vistani from Ravenloft, check.
Girdle of masc/fem, check.
Tolkien, check.
Aleena the Cleric: not to be found! Interesting.
For some of these things there's at least a discussion to be had (keeping in mind that we're talking about games and the stakes are so very very low). But in todays climate it's a waste of time.
Shame.
Quote from: KingCheops;1058248These people are sick.
Mentally ill, they are.
Quote from: ponta1010;1058258How long before all OSR players are banned.
Honest Query: Aren't they already??
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1058291Honest Query: Aren't they already??
I've got to say your question made me pause for some time...
I'd argue that in practice you're right, but TPB would say 'no'.
After all LibraryLass (who identified the Nazi problem which infests the OSR) is a non-banned member.
(This raises an interesting point if my logic is correct - As LibraryLass also identified as a fan of OSR, does this mean that they are a fan of Nazis, given that they are a fan of the OSR and the OSR has a Nazi problem? Therefore they should be or soon will be banned!)
At this stage TPB's D&D's specific forum is meant to cater for the following...
All versions of D&D, including OD&D, Basic D&D, AD&D, 3rd, 4th, and 5th Editions.
Plus, D&D-based fantasy games, including 13th Age, C&C, OSRIC, and Pathfinder.
Presumably this will amended at some stage to remove any reference to Nazi promoting RPGs.
Quote from: TJS;1058286For some of these things there's at least a discussion to be had (keeping in mind that we're talking about games and the stakes are so very very low). But in todays climate it's a waste of time.
Shame.
No. There isn't. It's bullshit full stop.
Quote from: Lurtch;1058298No. There isn't. It's bullshit full stop.
Well that's me convinced.
Quote from: Aglondir;1058285I tried to guess what the topics would be before reading the thread. Predicted most of them:
Orcs, check.
Drow, check.
Strength caps for female PCs, check.
Vistani from Ravenloft, check.
Girdle of masc/fem, check.
Tolkien, check.
Aleena the Cleric: not to be found! Interesting.
But there were some new ones:
Runner up: D&D is really about white people (the PCs) killing native americans (the monsters).
Winner: Pathfinder's orgres are "hicksploitation." (I was surpised that SJWs consider hillbillies a protected class. Their word, not mine. I prefer Applachian-American.)
I did not make it far enough to read about the girdle. Talk about not understanding context. It's a cursed item it's not supposed to be a pleasant experience. The sad part is some feel sorry for the giants in Aganst the Giants module. (Pearl Clutching time ) Giants are evil it's not fair for those sapient being to be killed off by the PCs. Sure they are rampaging monsters yet even they deserve a chance at life. To be fair Pathfinder Ogres do kind of deserve to be pointed out in a bad way imo. Mixing the hillbilliess and the mutants from the hills hav eyes into a creature. So Paizo going woke with them in their Besitiary is hypocritical to the extreme. Everyone seems to be a protect class to SJWs. They could actual change the world in a postive way if they were not so offended about every and any damn thing.
Quote from: Lurtch;1058298No. There isn't. It's bullshit full stop.
I think there's a discussion to be had on how to make the various humanoid monsters more distinct than how many HD they have. "I"m a monster! GRRRR!" ceased being a meaningful opponent motivation in any game I've ever played in past the age of about 14.
Motivation can help with how they react to the PCs (and why the PCs might care about them... after all, if goblins were just tiny people who farmed mushrooms in caves using wooden tools and kept to themselves they'd present neither the threat nor have the treasure to motivate many PCs to do more than note their existence in the DM's flavor text). Are the Orcs raiding because, like a lot of Native American tribes, that's just what you do to your neighbors (before Europeans showed up there was near perpetual low-level conflict between most neighboring tribes) which also implies that the Orcs are also raiding and counter-raiding each other? That provides not just the reason they're attacking the local human village, but the opportunity to gain intel about other nearby Orc tribes and potential allies if you go to one of the weaker tribes in the area offering to help them wipe out the other Orc tribes who are their longtime enemies.
Things like tactics and resource allocation (ex. kobolds feel like they should be more communal with their resources, while the strongest gets the best stuff among the orcs with his favorites getting the next best down the chain of bullying, hobgoblins probably assign based on best use for their upcoming campaigns, etc.) also help make them more distinct than "these guys have hyena faces, these guys have pig faces, these guys have bat-like faces, etc.
Quote from: TJS;1058299Well that's me convinced.
Good! I'd hate for you to try to have a 'conversation' about how racist Tolkien is and look stupid. Or about how we have people creating OSR games that are members of the Nazi party that doesn't exist anymore.
Quote from: Chris24601;1058318I think there's a discussion to be had on how to make the various humanoid monsters more distinct than how many HD they have. "I"m a monster! GRRRR!" ceased being a meaningful opponent motivation in any game I've ever played in past the age of about 14.
Motivation can help with how they react to the PCs (and why the PCs might care about them... after all, if goblins were just tiny people who farmed mushrooms in caves using wooden tools and kept to themselves they'd present neither the threat nor have the treasure to motivate many PCs to do more than note their existence in the DM's flavor text). Are the Orcs raiding because, like a lot of Native American tribes, that's just what you do to your neighbors (before Europeans showed up there was near perpetual low-level conflict between most neighboring tribes) which also implies that the Orcs are also raiding and counter-raiding each other? That provides not just the reason they're attacking the local human village, but the opportunity to gain intel about other nearby Orc tribes and potential allies if you go to one of the weaker tribes in the area offering to help them wipe out the other Orc tribes who are their longtime enemies.
Things like tactics and resource allocation (ex. kobolds feel like they should be more communal with their resources, while the strongest gets the best stuff among the orcs with his favorites getting the next best down the chain of bullying, hobgoblins probably assign based on best use for their upcoming campaigns, etc.) also help make them more distinct than "these guys have hyena faces, these guys have pig faces, these guys have bat-like faces, etc.
Wanting better monsters doesn't mean that Orcs are analogous to native Americans and racist. That's bullshit. Tolkien isn't a racist nor are his books. Having men stronger than women isn't sexist. It's science. I'm glad it changed for a game but the original intention isn't sexist.
I don't engage with people that argue in bad faith and when the game is: agree with me or your a Nazi, that's bad faith.
Meanwhile... My lovely new ACKS book arrived on Friday. Looking forward to cracking it open tonight with a cold beer. Have also sprung for the Heroic Fantasy pdf so should now have everything I need when I get a chance to run it.
Quote from: Lurtch;1058319Good! I'd hate for you to try to have a 'conversation' about how racist Tolkien is and look stupid. Or about how we have people creating OSR games that are members of the Nazi party that doesn't exist anymore.
You know how I said that in today's climate it would be a waste of time?
A big part of that is because you can't make any points that aren't stupid gross oversimplifications. without people ignoring any points you might make and having an argument with the imaginary opponent in their head.
Of course now I see that I don't even have to go so far as to make any real points at all before the frothing insanity starts.
Did I say that I think Tolkien was racist? No
Did I say that I think any OSR creators are nazis? No.
Your stupid fucking assumptions. Well at least I guess I can say my point is well and truly proven.
Quote from: TJS;1058322You know how I said that in today's climate it would be a waste of time?
A big part of that is because you can't make any points that aren't stupid gross oversimplifications. without people ignoring any points you might make and having an argument with the imaginary opponent in their head.
Of course now I see that I don't even have to go so far as to make any real points at all before the frothing insanity starts.
Did I say that I think Tolkien was racist? No
Did I say that I think any OSR creators are nazis? No.
Your stupid fucking assumptions. Well at least I guess I can say my point is well and truly proven.
We are talking about a very specific thread on a very specific forum, where people believe the Lord of the Rings is racist. They D&D is racist and "problematic". If you want to make an argument around one of the points brought up in the thread, go ahead. But, no, don't give me any bullshit.
QuoteOrcs, check.
Drow, check.
Strength caps for female PCs, check.
Vistani from Ravenloft, check.
Girdle of masc/fem, check.
Tolkien, check.
Aleena the Cleric: not to be found! Interesting.
Which of these points can we have a discussion on in the context of the big purple. Go head, which one?
You're not going to answer because it will expose just how fucking stupid you are or how disingenuous you are.
The sad part is none of those expressing outrage now ever gave a flying fuck about how racist etc D&D was until the last year or two most likely. Suddenly everything about their hobby was terrible, racist, misogynistic etc.. I wonder how some of them survive in the real world.
If they truly were are smart as they think they are they would stop banning so many people and topics. Want to drum up interest in something ban it because people like the forbidden. I wonder how one can even have a campaign where every race is good or at least neutral. Is the group going to be playing a fantasy version of the littlest hobo.
Quote from: TJS;1058286For some of these things there's at least a discussion to be had (keeping in mind that we're talking about games and the stakes are so very very low). But in todays climate it's a waste of time.
Shame.
It's been done. Apparently the discussion leads to talking about how everyone is a Nazi.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1058327It's been done. Apparently the discussion leads to talking about how everyone is a Nazi.
They sure do love their fascists, don't they the 'Ctrl-Left' as we call them here.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1058327It's been done. Apparently the discussion leads to talking about how everyone is a Nazi.
Twenty years ago when we discussed these things it was stupid. It's only gotten worse.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1058327It's been done. Apparently the discussion leads to talking about how everyone is a Nazi.
Yes. It would be a short "discussion." But those threads are not meant for discussion, they are meant to identify and ban posters who are "bad fits." They are purity purges that occur on almost predictable cycles.
The irony is that I agree with some of their points. But if you really believe that killing monsters and taking their stuff is racist,
you fundamentally hate D&D.
Quote from: TJS;1058322You know how I said that in today's climate it would be a waste of time?
A big part of that is because you can't make any points that aren't stupid gross oversimplifications. without people ignoring any points you might make and having an argument with the imaginary opponent in their head.
Of course now I see that I don't even have to go so far as to make any real points at all before the frothing insanity starts.
Did I say that I think Tolkien was racist? No
Did I say that I think any OSR creators are nazis? No.
Your stupid fucking assumptions. Well at least I guess I can say my point is well and truly proven.
Honestly, the most damaging aspect of the whole SJW movement isn't even its own idiocy; it's the way it drives non-SJWs into the same type of extremes (just in the opposite directions) and ultimately, hatred, that just shuts down any nuance and sees the bulk of the people in the middle who just want to enjoy themselves attacked from both sides as belonging to the other side for not being 100% in their camp.
I've been experiencing this more and more across fandom... where the ostensibly 'conservative' side sees some SJW agenda behind anything that doesn't 100% conform to their agenda; picking fights where none actually needed to fought and energy would be so much better spent elsewhere. It literally seems to be a case of each side becoming what they hate (which is each other).
Let's take Tolkein for example. No, he's not a racist; but his depiction of good vs. evil is heavily rooted in his views of pastoral commonfolk as the ideal for society vs. industrialization as a destructive force and that's something interesting to discuss.
Personally, I think industrialization has been a positive force that has elevated more people out of poverty and ended starvation as a threat for most of humanity (save where politics is preventing it) so I find Tolkein's depiction of it as intrinsically corrupt and destructive to be ill-informed (probably based on his experiences in WW1, the first time Europeans got exposed to effects of industrialization on warfare) and his depiction of those who embrace industrialization as ugly and wicked by nature may not be racist, but that's only because the elements of society he is villainizing aren't a race.
I think there is an interesting discussion to be had over the way later writers (particularly Americans; who's late arrival in WW1 and previous exposure to the horrors of modern war via the Civil War led to far less association of industry with evil) tended to shift the presentation of orcs, goblins, etc. from those corrupted by heavy industrialization (because that is seen much more positively) to representing more primitive forces that seek to tear down the more advanced "good" civilization.
You can also see it a bit in the balance between the presentation of elves and dwarves. In Tolkein the dwarves were depicted as greedy and foolish; Moria is destroyed because they dug too deep in their search for resources; while the elves are superior to Men in most every way because they live in harmony with nature. By contrast, more modern and American depictions tend to regard dwarves as honorable and industrious (and hard-drinking in a 'relax with the boys after a hard honest days' work' sense) while elves are seen as aloof and elitist jerks who look down on others while riddled with flaws of their own.
But there are some who'd just take all of that and say I'm some SJW type for questioning Tolkein's depictions of Orcs, Dwarves and Elves as being a product of his time and a life experience very different from more modern sentiments regarding industrialization vs. pastoralism.
Really though I think it's just a fascinating area of study, particularly when looking at the villains you're creating and how they reflect what you find villainous in the real world. Also interesting is how both extremes of the political spectrum seem to use the exact same archetypes for villains as stand-ins for the other side.
Quote from: Chris24601;1058337Let's take Tolkein for example. No, he's not a racist; but his depiction of good vs. evil is heavily rooted in his views of pastoral commonfolk as the ideal for society vs. industrialization as a destructive force and that's something interesting to discuss.
Personally, I think industrialization has been a positive force that has elevated more people out of poverty and ended starvation as a threat for most of humanity (save where politics is preventing it) so I find Tolkein's depiction of it as intrinsically corrupt and destructive to be ill-informed (probably based on his experiences in WW1, the first time Europeans got exposed to effects of industrialization on warfare) and his depiction of those who embrace industrialization as ugly and wicked by nature may not be racist, but that's only because the elements of society he is villainizing aren't a race.
I think there is an interesting discussion to be had over the way later writers (particularly Americans; who's late arrival in WW1 and previous exposure to the horrors of modern war via the Civil War led to far less association of industry with evil) tended to shift the presentation of orcs, goblins, etc. from those corrupted by heavy industrialization (because that is seen much more positively) to representing more primitive forces that seek to tear down the more advanced "good" civilization.
You can also see it a bit in the balance between the presentation of elves and dwarves. In Tolkein the dwarves were depicted as greedy and foolish; Moria is destroyed because they dug too deep in their search for resources; while the elves are superior to Men in most every way because they live in harmony with nature. By contrast, more modern and American depictions tend to regard dwarves as honorable and industrious (and hard-drinking in a 'relax with the boys after a hard honest days' work' sense) while elves are seen as aloof and elitist jerks who look down on others while riddled with flaws of their own.
That's some good stuff there. :cool: Do you have a blog (etc)?
Quote from: Chris24601;1058337Honestly, the most damaging aspect of the whole SJW movement isn't even its own idiocy; it's the way it drives non-SJWs into the same type of extremes (just in the opposite directions) and ultimately, hatred, that just shuts down any nuance and sees the bulk of the people in the middle who just want to enjoy themselves attacked from both sides as belonging to the other side for not being 100% in their camp.
I've been experiencing this more and more across fandom... where the ostensibly 'conservative' side sees some SJW agenda behind anything that doesn't 100% conform to their agenda; picking fights where none actually needed to fought and energy would be so much better spent elsewhere. It literally seems to be a case of each side becoming what they hate (which is each other).
Let's take Tolkein for example. No, he's not a racist; but his depiction of good vs. evil is heavily rooted in his views of pastoral commonfolk as the ideal for society vs. industrialization as a destructive force and that's something interesting to discuss.
Personally, I think industrialization has been a positive force that has elevated more people out of poverty and ended starvation as a threat for most of humanity (save where politics is preventing it) so I find Tolkein's depiction of it as intrinsically corrupt and destructive to be ill-informed (probably based on his experiences in WW1, the first time Europeans got exposed to effects of industrialization on warfare) and his depiction of those who embrace industrialization as ugly and wicked by nature may not be racist, but that's only because the elements of society he is villainizing aren't a race.
I think there is an interesting discussion to be had over the way later writers (particularly Americans; who's late arrival in WW1 and previous exposure to the horrors of modern war via the Civil War led to far less association of industry with evil) tended to shift the presentation of orcs, goblins, etc. from those corrupted by heavy industrialization (because that is seen much more positively) to representing more primitive forces that seek to tear down the more advanced "good" civilization.
You can also see it a bit in the balance between the presentation of elves and dwarves. In Tolkein the dwarves were depicted as greedy and foolish; Moria is destroyed because they dug too deep in their search for resources; while the elves are superior to Men in most every way because they live in harmony with nature. By contrast, more modern and American depictions tend to regard dwarves as honorable and industrious (and hard-drinking in a 'relax with the boys after a hard honest days' work' sense) while elves are seen as aloof and elitist jerks who look down on others while riddled with flaws of their own.
But there are some who'd just take all of that and say I'm some SJW type for questioning Tolkein's depictions of Orcs, Dwarves and Elves as being a product of his time and a life experience very different from more modern sentiments regarding industrialization vs. pastoralism.
Really though I think it's just a fascinating area of study, particularly when looking at the villains you're creating and how they reflect what you find villainous in the real world. Also interesting is how both extremes of the political spectrum seem to use the exact same archetypes for villains as stand-ins for the other side.
I agree with you. All of your points above are fascinating. If explored with thoughtfulness it could be an interesting blog post. The issue today is that thoughtfulness is rejected in favor of Manichean morality. In analytic philosophy, arguments are often poised as "Given X, therefore Y". And a critic can then respond either by saying "Maybe not X" or "Even given X, maybe not Y" and a fruitful conversation can develop on either facet. Contemporary debate simply asserts "Y" and there is no room for debate. Even if you say "I understand how you get to Y because Y implicitly assumes X, and you believe X, but I am not sure I disagree with X" - about the gentlest possible disagreement one could have - you've committed badwrongthink and need to be exiled. You are either on the right side of history or the wrong side of history - and if you reject the notion that history progresses, you're on the wrong side. You either are an ally of oppressed minorities or an oppressor - and if you reject the notion that oppressor/oppression is the best framework to apply, you're just an oppressor. You are either pro-choice without reservation or you hate women - and if you say you support choice but believe the calculus should include some rights for the unborn at a certain point, you just hate women. And so on and so on.
Quote from: amacris;1058340I agree with you. All of your points above are fascinating. If explored with thoughtfulness it could be an interesting blog post. The issue today is that thoughtfulness is rejected in favor of Manichean morality. In analytic philosophy, arguments are often poised as "Given X, therefore Y". And a critic can then respond either by saying "Maybe not X" or "Even given X, maybe not Y" and a fruitful conversation can develop on either facet. Contemporary debate simply asserts "Y" and there is no room for debate. Even if you say "I understand how you get to Y because Y implicitly assumes X, and you believe X, but I am not sure I disagree with X" - about the gentlest possible disagreement one could have - you've committed badwrongthink and need to be exiled. You are either on the right side of history or the wrong side of history - and if you reject the notion that history progresses, you're on the wrong side. You either are an ally of oppressed minorities or an oppressor - and if you reject the notion that oppressor/oppression is the best framework to apply, you're just an oppressor. You are either pro-choice without reservation or you hate women - and if you say you support choice but believe the calculus should include some rights for the unborn at a certain point, you just hate women. And so on and so on.
I don't disagree from the SJW side, but the point that I am noticing with growing concern is the same sort of attitude coming from elements of the right.
I've seen instances where just having a female protagonist is enough to have a story labelled as "feminist propaganda" by certain right leaning individuals because, even though the female protagonist displays nothing but love and respect for all the men in her life, the protagonist solves their own problems instead of having a man do it (which is kinda the point of being the protagonist in every book on storytelling I've ever read) and had the gall to not look like an airbrushed cover girl at all times. The HATE for the SJWs has led them to see SJW plots behind every bush and accuse those who do not see it as they do of being SJW apologists.
THAT is the saddest part of the whole SJW thing to me... not that they're obnoxious idiots, but that they're corrupting otherwise good and rational people with their hatred and turning them from people who look at the facts into people who attack anyone who disagrees with them in the slightest. I recently had to give up a Catholic writer's blog because they couldn't see the degree to which this hatred had infected them. Where once they'd preached truth, now they were outright lying about what was actually being said and justified cyberstalking and harassment as valid tactics to employ so long as the targets were SJW adjacent because the SJWs wanted to do even worse (so basically, the Catholic who once preached truth and God's mercy became a liar who was preaching 'eye for an eye' and 'ends justify the means' because they grew to hate SJWs so much).
I see it starting to creep into the Right-learning RPG rhetoric too; the idea that the political beliefs of the authors should be used as criteria for supporting a product rather than the merits or flaws of the project itself. My fear is that if those opposed to the SJWs let hate take over its going to polarize the industry to the point that there is no safe middle ground for all the players who just want to have a good time on Saturday night, people who play 5e because its easy and fun or Pathfinder because all their friends do (and they do because they still had all their 3e books and didn't want to switch to 4e) and haven't given two seconds' thought to the parts that support the SJW agenda because they're so focused on the bulk of the game that is not those things.
Its hard not to become what you hate and the SJWs try really hard to make you hate them. They need the wedges and divides to succeed in splintering and destroying what they oppose. To Balkanize everything so much that they can then pick off each isolated group one at a time. That's why free speech zones like this where we have to put up with each other despite our differences are so important.
Quote from: Chris24601;1058337You can also see it a bit in the balance between the presentation of elves and dwarves. In Tolkein the dwarves were depicted as greedy and foolish; Moria is destroyed because they dug too deep in their search for resources; while the elves are superior to Men in most every way because they live in harmony with nature. By contrast, more modern and American depictions tend to regard dwarves as honorable and industrious (and hard-drinking in a 'relax with the boys after a hard honest days' work' sense) while elves are seen as aloof and elitist jerks who look down on others while riddled with flaws of their own.
Tolkien himself went to that well. Feanor was one of the most bloody-handed, vicious antagonists of the Silmarillon whose personality flaws caused great suffering for many people in Middle Earth. And he was an elf.
Nobody has issues with taking a deeper look at the themes of say Tolkien's work. But when the default assumption on TBP is Tolkien is racist (he's not) and to rove the context inwhich Tolkien was raised and his experiences, not a lot of good faith discussion can take place.
When the default assumption is that Orcs and goblins are a secret stand in for ethnic minorities in the United States, we cannot have a good faith discussion.
The reason why I snap at when people say "there is something to discuss here" is that on TBP there isn't. This topic is about how TBP hit almost all the notes.
Quote from: Chris24601;1058355Its hard not to become what you hate and the SJWs try really hard to make you hate them.
Yeah, this is very true. It's very important not to give in to hate.
"Daddy, are the SJWs bad people?" asked my son.
"No, most of them are just sad, unhappy, often mentally ill. They take out their inner torment on others." I replied.
Of course there are genuinely evil individuals, but you don't have to be evil to do bad things. (Obviously this is equally true of the Alt-Righters too - a lot of them have mental problems & they take out their inner torment on others.)
Quote from: Chris24601;1058337Let's take Tolkein for example. No, he's not a racist; but his depiction of good vs. evil is heavily rooted in his views of pastoral commonfolk as the ideal for society vs. industrialization as a destructive force and that's something interesting to discuss.
People who read Tolkein as racist don't understand that he was a product of his time, and we shouldn't even be reading the races as analogues of human ethnicity. He was a classist snob, not a racist; orcs represented the industrial working classes, compared to the pure and virtuous rural working classes of the Shire.
Quote from: Lurtch;1058323We are talking about a very specific thread on a very specific forum, where people believe the Lord of the Rings is racist. They D&D is racist and "problematic". If you want to make an argument around one of the points brought up in the thread, go ahead. But, no, don't give me any bullshit.
This shit again.
I think I'll stick you on the Ignore List for a while until you calm down and stop frothing at the mouth.
The thread where they started from the premise that Mind Flayers aren't pure evil just because eating sentient brains is their form of nourishment so isn't it wrong to kill them was the last time I bothered posting there IIRC.
Quote from: KingCheops;1058378The thread where they started from the premise that Mind Flayers aren't pure evil just because eating sentient brains is their form of nourishment so isn't it wrong to kill them was the last time I bothered posting there IIRC.
Now that is fucked up and twisted. They have the stones to lash out at others.
Quote from: estar;1057994Yes but it is overkill in OD&D, character don't have a lot of hit points. Having damage dice explode would dramatically increase the one shot kills.
Generally speaking Savage Worlds player characters effectively only have 20 hit points, since there are five four point stages from Shaken to 3 wounds to incapacitated.
However toughness absorbs damage which gives them more. So if you added exploding damage to OD&D, you'd have to add armor/toughness damage absorbing.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1058329They sure do love their fascists, don't they the 'Ctrl-Left' as we call them here.
That is because
they are the fascists. And its going about as well as it did for Poland and the rest of Europe for media. They use all the rhetoric and tactics.
Quote from: Chris24601;1058355I don't disagree from the SJW side, but the point that I am noticing with growing concern is the same sort of attitude coming from elements of the right.
I've seen instances where just having a female protagonist is enough to have a story labelled as "feminist propaganda" by certain right leaning individuals because, even though the female protagonist displays nothing but love and respect for all the men in her life, the protagonist solves their own problems instead of having a man do it (which is kinda the point of being the protagonist in every book on storytelling I've ever read) and had the gall to not look like an airbrushed cover girl at all times. The HATE for the SJWs has led them to see SJW plots behind every bush and accuse those who do not see it as they do of being SJW apologists.
This was sadly inevitable. The infestation of the SJW agenda into media has people so freaking sick of seeing it that even the stuff that is not comes under fire because people will suspect it as just another SJW ploy. Luckily though this does not happen too often. But this is the push back that had to eventually come.
Back on topic.
I hope the various hate groups freaked out at ACKS success despite their efforts.
Quote from: rgalex;1058244Not that people will be surprised anymore, but TPB is back at it. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?834561-Warning-for-Baron-Opal-Thread-Ban&p=22142528#post22142528) Someone just got thread banned for saying that the OSR movement doesn't have a nazi problem after someone else claims it does and uses ACKS as the example.
Actually they used "The Game That Shall Not Be Discussed" as an example. Apparently only the word ACKS is forbidden.
Quote from: ponta1010;1058258To me the comment Baron Opal was objecting to was a group attack (essentially "All OSR players are Nazis").
Yes. It was.
Quote from: sureshot;1058324The sad part is none of those expressing outrage now ever gave a flying fuck about how racist etc D&D was until the last year or two most likely. Suddenly everything about their hobby was terrible, racist, misogynistic etc.
Yeah, weird that.
Quote from: Aglondir;1058336But those threads are not meant for discussion, they are meant to identify and ban posters who are "bad fits." They are purity purges that occur on almost predictable cycles.
Indeed.
Quote from: Chris24601;1058337his depiction of good vs. evil is heavily rooted in his views of pastoral commonfolk as the ideal for society vs. industrialization as a destructive force and that's something interesting to discuss.
This could easily be framed in reverse, with the pastoral commonfolk as the villains holding back progress and destroying the things they don't understand.
I know
you know this, but I still think it's useful to point out that
every human ethos, from Democracy and Communism, to Science and Religion, becomes
inhuman at the extremes.
Quote from: KingCheops;1058378The thread where they started from the premise that Mind Flayers aren't pure evil just because eating sentient brains is their form of nourishment so isn't it wrong to kill them was the last time I bothered posting there IIRC.
Still other SJWs have written articles about how prejudice against sociopaths is ableist.
Is it any wonder their communities are full of them?
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1058402Is it any wonder their communities are full of them?
just for clarification sociopaths or Mind Flayers?
Quote from: ponta1010;1058408just for clarification sociopaths or Mind Flayers?
Why not sociopathic mindflayers?
Back on topic, I really need to get myself organised and write up Mercenary, Liberator, Tyrant properly (it would be a historical conversion supplement). There's a poster on the ACKS forum called The Dark who was writing some naval rules which would make the perfect accompaniment to it.
Quote from: ponta1010;1058408just for clarification sociopaths or Mind Flayers?
Yes.
Quote from: Kiero;1058416Back on topic, I really need to get myself organised and write up Mercenary, Liberator, Tyrant properly (it would be a historical conversion supplement). There's a poster on the ACKS forum called The Dark who was writing some naval rules which would make the perfect accompaniment to it.
He left the community for reasons but I have his draft rules and could possibly secure permission for their use.
Quote from: amacris;1058477He left the community for reasons but I have his draft rules and could possibly secure permission for their use.
That's a damned shame, what he had as a WIP was close to being good enough to publish as a standalone supplement.
There's no hurry, but please do check if we have permission to use them in the future. They were quite brilliant.
Quote from: amacris;1058477He left the community for reasons but I have his draft rules and could possibly secure permission for their use.
Glad I saved a copy before then.
Again, why does anyone keep going to/using that site? It's not an RPG site anymore. It hasn't been for YEARS.
I primarily sell/trade games on there.
Access to the non-D&D marketplace mainly.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1058775Again, why does anyone keep going to/using that site? It's not an RPG site anymore. It hasn't been for YEARS.
Rubbernecking.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1058775Again, why does anyone keep going to/using that site? It's not an RPG site anymore. It hasn't been for YEARS.
It's like going back to a pool in which someone has been diarrhea blasting in for YEARS...
why swim there?
Who knows? It's a mystery.
Like the Druids...
Quote from: tenbones;1058820Like the Druids...
No one knows who they were. Or...what they were doing. But their legacy remains...
Quote from: RPGPundit;1058775Again, why does anyone keep going to/using that site? It's not an RPG site anymore. It hasn't been for YEARS.
Why do you keep using Twitter?
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1058822No one knows who they were. Or...what they were doing. But their legacy remains...
Where the demons dwell where the banshees live and they do live well!
Because there are creative people who talk about interesting things, sometimes.
Quote from: Imaginos;1058833Where the demons dwell where the banshees live and they do live well!
Two super-cool points for that quote and
Imaginos. One of the greatest theme albums ever.
True that
Hey Alex.
Secrets of the Nethercity looks pretty good so far.
I'm gonna have to wait until the weekend to really get a good look at it. :(
Quote from: moonsweeper;1058918Hey Alex.
Secrets of the Nethercity looks pretty good so far.
I'm gonna have to wait until the weekend to really get a good look at it. :(
Glad you are digging it! Let me know what you think when you've dived in.
Quote from: David Johansen;1058817Access to the non-D&D marketplace mainly.
This:).
Quote from: Lurtch;1058830Why do you keep using Twitter?
And this, too;).
Though admittedly I haven't been there for quite some time.
You know I wonder how long until Big Throbbing Purple decides that all pre-2e D&D and variants Are Bad, Against Niceness, Morally and Ethically Repugnant And Literally Murder Marginalized People At A Rate Of Fifty Gorillion Every Day and ban all non-negative/critical discussion of OD&D, AD&D, and Basic D&D.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;1059663You know I wonder how long until Big Throbbing Purple decides that all pre-2e D&D and variants Are Bad, Against Niceness, Morally and Ethically Repugnant And Literally Murder Marginalized People At A Rate Of Fifty Gorillion Every Day and ban all non-negative/critical discussion of OD&D, AD&D, and Basic D&D.
I'm pretty sure they'll throw 2e in there too. 2e was famous for its Cultural Appropriation of Marginalised Groups (Zakhara) and/or its Eurocentrism (Birthright) - ie it had lots of campaign settings.
You're late to the party. I haven't been following it, but they've been talking about how horrible D&D is for weeks now. It started with a thread on how it was time to remove drow and eventually someone started a new thread where people could complain about all sorts of stuff they found inappropriate in older editions.
There's no way 2e survives the purging of all unwoke history.
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Quote from: thedungeondelver;1059663You know I wonder how long until Big Throbbing Purple decides that all pre-2e D&D and variants Are Bad, Against Niceness, Morally and Ethically Repugnant And Literally Murder Marginalized People At A Rate Of Fifty Gorillion Every Day and ban all non-negative/critical discussion of OD&D, AD&D, and Basic D&D.
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These are only the first few comments from a thread that's now at 625 posts.
Quote from: Melan;1059752(https://78.media.tumblr.com/4a7bd4425d6c8d107e08a3b4d5d98bd7/tumblr_pfm0103g5i1xcdgeso4_1280.png)
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These are only the first few comments from a thread that's now at 625 posts.
#10 sounds like he'd be a lot happier playing a
Midnight game - as a Legate of Izrador.
(In Midnight Izrador is Morgoth in a world without Illuvatar. You're supposed to play the rapidly-being-exterminated humans, elves and dwarves - it's classic Misery Tourism - but it sounds like he'd rather be an Orc, with his boot stamping on a Human face forever).
Never try to appeal to a hate group. They will either find something new to hate or ignore you.
Greetings!
I read Sand Orcs and Jungle Orcs. Hmmm...lets see...Sand Orcs. That has to be Orcs that live in sandy deserts, harsh, desert like environments. Ok, next are the Jungle Orcs. That tells me they originate in Jungles. They are accustomed to surviving in a jungle environment. Ok, cool. Neat, efficient naming of a regional race or culture, as opposed to say, the Mountain Orcs, or the Orcs of Tharghah, which tend to live in fortified towns.
Wait...Huh? Sand Orcs and Jungle Orcs are...racist? You see, these SJW morons are really so fucked in the head, they have drank so deep from the Marxist Koolaid, that they no longer have the comprehension skills of a 10 year old. Sand Orcs mean exactly that, Sand Orcs. Same thing with fucking Jungle Orcs. But NO! SJW morons have to twist some kind of fucked up philosophy into how they read or hear the English language. These morons have decided that there's something sinister going on here...yes, something deeper. The more enlightened will clearly recognize the deeper allusions to RACISM!!!! LOL.
My god, none of these people can ever just fucking comprehend something in a basic, Occam's Razor way. There's always some kind of racist signaling going on, some deeper philosophy of mysogyny, or secretly homophobic attitudes, or....geesus, you know? They do this insane shit with EVERYTHING.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Melan;1059752These are only the first few comments from a thread that's now at 625 posts.
It's easy to poke fun, but please confirm which of these "accused" elements you are defending. For example, do you think the Vistani were a slur against the Roma, if yes, do you consider those slurs to be acceptable in 2018?
Or if you prefer parallel media, do you consider
this scene (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/films/2017/04/04/tiffanys_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bqmxde73gdOqcage9hCJ4hKpRMR6je8M6Zkkk4gTV4TRI.JPG?imwidth=450) - a product of its time, in a hugely successful and influential movie - to be problematic in 2018? If yes, what criticism is acceptable in 2018, if anything?
Quote from: Brand55;1059698You're late to the party. I haven't been following it, but they've been talking about how horrible D&D is for weeks now. It started with a thread on how it was time to remove drow and eventually someone started a new thread where people could complain about all sorts of stuff they found inappropriate in older editions.
Saw that thread. How do these loons even function in normal society or reality at all for that matter?
Quote from: Omega;1059823Saw that thread. How do these loons even function in normal society or reality at all for that matter?
Your guess is as good as mine. That's one benefit of living in the rural southern US. I'm quite happy in my bubble far away from the majority of liberal nutjobs. I have to worry more about running into right-wing extremists and religious zealots on a day-to-day basis. They bring their own issues, but I generally find they're easier to deal with.
Nyooo, the diarrhea pool is sloshing its storm surge into here! :eek: We need levees!
Quote from: Motorskills;1059821It's easy to poke fun, but please confirm which of these "accused" elements you are defending. For example, do you think the Vistani were a slur against the Roma, if yes, do you consider those slurs to be acceptable in 2018?
Or if you prefer parallel media, do you consider this scene (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/films/2017/04/04/tiffanys_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bqmxde73gdOqcage9hCJ4hKpRMR6je8M6Zkkk4gTV4TRI.JPG?imwidth=450) - a product of its time, in a hugely successful and influential movie - to be problematic in 2018? If yes, what criticism is acceptable in 2018, if anything?
Melan, please don't answer this shit.
Quote from: Motorskills;1059821It's easy to poke fun, but please confirm which of these "accused" elements you are defending. For example, do you think the Vistani were a slur against the Roma, if yes, do you consider those slurs to be acceptable in 2018?
All of them. The accusations are baseless, hysterical, and the products of political lunacy.
Quote from: Melan;1059853All of them. The accusations are baseless, hysterical, and the products of political lunacy.
Greetings!
Hello Melan! Outstanding! You said what I was thinking!
Yeah, ALL OF THEM, brother. Damn straight!
For the reasons you succinctly put forth!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: S'mon;1059850Melan, please don't answer this shit.
As a Londoner you know full well that the relationship between the Traveller community and the general British public isn't pretty on either side, not helped by the fair bit of racism getting stirred into mix.
To be fair Gully Dwarves deserve to be called out imo. Such a strange and god awful thing to put in any campaign world followed by Kender. I don't think they realize it or even care how insulting it is to compare Gully Dwarves to those who are intellectually handicapped. While I have not met many individuals who are I have seen a few and none of them at least the ones I associated with act in any way shape or form as a Gully Dwarf. Shocking they assume those who are intellectually handicapped to be like the stereotype that they are unfortunately too often portrayed.
I wonder how those in that D&D thread function in normal society without the safe space, echo chamber of the the Rpg.net forums.
It's super evil wicked and bad to mash a bunch of cultures on a single continent into a cartoonish, historically meaningless trope, which a lone warrior wearing "studded leather", fighting with a halberd, and carrying a longbow on his back totally isn't at all.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1059894It's super evil wicked and bad to mash a bunch of cultures on a single continent into a cartoonish, historically meaningless trope, which a lone warrior wearing "studded leather", fighting with a halberd, and carrying a longbow on his back totally isn't at all.
Elf games
The only history they have to follow is the one of the game world.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1059894It's super evil wicked and bad to mash a bunch of cultures on a single continent into a cartoonish, historically meaningless trope, which a lone warrior wearing "studded leather", fighting with a halberd, and carrying a longbow on his back totally isn't at all.
I keep on saying, if we were to hold those complaining about appropriation and erasure to a consistent standard, I could have
so much fun with them given my standing as a practicing Catholic who specializes in medieval theology ... :D
I for one think it's pretty cool that we have achieved such incredible heights of material comfort and safety that there are people who can expend serious emotional energy being upset about the gully dwarves in trash novels from the 1980s.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1059930I for one think it's pretty cool that we have achieved such incredible heights of material comfort and safety that there are people who can expend serious emotional energy being upset about the gully dwarves in trash novels from the 1980s.
Greetings!
Hello Fearsomepirate! Yeah, really. I don't remember Gully Dwarves ever being very popular. In fact, in my experience, Gully Dwarves were rather obscure, to be honest. Most players I knew tended to like sticking with a standard Hill or Mountain Dwarf.
It's so strange reading threads like that. These SJW people see "offense" in everything. The most innocuous creation or presentation is somehow twisted and interpreted into being "Deeply problematic." The whole whining about being "offended" because particular, historical stereotypes are used...in a game...for fun. And no, these morons are too stupid to ever comprehend stereotypes being partially true, and funny. The Roma get stereotyped. Big deal. Romans, Greeks, Persians, Germans, Spaniards...Mongols, Vikings, French, English, Scots and Celts get stereotyped as well. Everyone, everywhere has stereotypes, which are often embraced by everyone around them as well. Are lots of individual people different, and break stereotypes? Certainly. But stereotypes are in large part accurate--that is why they have developed and endured for centuries in many cases, because the stereotypes reflect people's experience on a consistent basis with people from that particular culture or ethnic group.
It is what it is. It's so frustrating dealing with these kinds of morons that seem hell-bent on corrupting and destroying our hobby.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: sureshot;1059889To be fair Gully Dwarves deserve to be called out imo. Such a strange and god awful thing to put in any campaign world followed by Kender. I don't think they realize it or even care how insulting it is to compare Gully Dwarves to those who are intellectually handicapped. While I have not met many individuals who are I have seen a few and none of them at least the ones I associated with act in any way shape or form as a Gully Dwarf. Shocking they assume those who are intellectually handicapped to be like the stereotype that they are unfortunately too often portrayed.
I wonder how those in that D&D thread function in normal society without the safe space, echo chamber of the the Rpg.net forums.
I have worked as a nurse and seen those homeless patients that are both mentally and physically afflicted (though none I have worked with have had dwarfism), and Gully Dwarves do remind
me of a funhouse mirror version of such unfortunate individuals, but that's because of firsthand exposure to such folks.
I have visited service homes for the severely mentally and physically challenged (I traveled interesting circles throughout life) and they do not seem like Gully Dwarves. First major difference is Gully Dwarves are written with a consistently craven nature and passive aggressive bullying culture (particularly among themselves). They're a caricature of that whipped villain sidekick to an extreme -- dumb, craven, servile, petty cruelty when they can get away with it -- and then made into an entire race.
Real challenged people have a wide variety of personalities, and they vary from day to day as much as anyone else (good days and bad days,). I don't see much similarity, but that might be proximity allowed me to see individuals over stereotypes. :confused:
Quote from: Opaopajr;1059963I have visited service homes for the severely mentally and physically challenged (I traveled interesting circles throughout life) and they do not seem like Gully Dwarves. First major difference is Gully Dwarves are written with a consistently craven nature and passive aggressive bullying culture (particularly among themselves). They're a caricature of that whipped villain sidekick to an extreme -- dumb, craven, servile, petty cruelty when they can get away with it -- and then made into an entire race.
Real challenged people have a wide variety of personalities, and they vary from day to day as much as anyone else (good days and bad days,). I don't see much similarity, but that might be proximity allowed me to see individuals over stereotypes. :confused:
They're a race of Renfields.
Don't hear the Brits crying.
Leaving aside the political element as something which isn't really able to be discussed here in any worthwhile way.
It would be a shame if all this SJW/Anti-SJW bullshit ended up with people fighting to retain all these hackneyed and boring elements of D&D out of sheer stubbornness.
One of the most refreshing elements of the OSR has been the willingness to throw out all these done to death stuff and create new stuff free of the all the old cruft (political or not).
The main reason I'll probably never used Orcs again is that they bore the fuck out of me.
And I don't need any political interpretations to see that Gully Dwarves were a stupid idea and the only humour in them was both cruel and unfunny. (Ha ha these people are so stupid - they can't count to three).
Quote from: Opaopajr;1059963I have visited service homes for the severely mentally and physically challenged (I traveled interesting circles throughout life) and they do not seem like Gully Dwarves. First major difference is Gully Dwarves are written with a consistently craven nature and passive aggressive bullying culture (particularly among themselves). They're a caricature of that whipped villain sidekick to an extreme -- dumb, craven, servile, petty cruelty when they can get away with it -- and then made into an entire race.
Real challenged people have a wide variety of personalities, and they vary from day to day as much as anyone else (good days and bad days,). I don't see much similarity, but that might be proximity allowed me to see individuals over stereotypes. :confused:
Greetings!
Hey Opaopajr! Interesting! You know, I'll admit that a portion of the mentally ill and those with a variety of mental disabilities--their antics and expressions can be very humorous. Sometimes, of course, some individuals are also quite dangerous. In general though, many of them can be frustrating to deal with, for a wide variety of reasons. I think some aspects of the streotypes, like with many such, can be humorous and in good fun.
The Gully Dwarves were just fucking stupid as all hell though.:)
Having said that, I have also done some work tutoring both adolescents and adults with mental and learning disabilities. Down's Syndrome, and so on. I have to say some of them are indeed a great blessing to us. Many are without guile, at all. They don't lie or deceive, and they truly accept YOU for being YOU. They could care less about your age, your race, what you look like, what you do, or how much you make. What is deeply meaningful to them, is that YOU are their friend. I think that kind of love and acceptance is a gift to us, the rest of humanity, and I think that capacity for love and friendship often demonstrated by mentally disabled/challenged people makes them very special. Joking aside, we should remember to respect them, cherish them, and value them as members of our community.
Your post reminded me of some of those good relationships I had, Opaopajr. Thank you, my friend.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: TJS;1059973And I don't need any political interpretations to see that Gully Dwarves were a stupid idea and the only humour in them was both cruel and unfunny. (Ha ha these people are so stupid - they can't count to three).
Gully Dwarves aren't real and the Dragonlance novels are trash.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1059995Gully Dwarves aren't real and the Dragonlance novels are trash.
And the sky is blue and water is wet.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1059995Gully Dwarves aren't real and the Dragonlance novels are trash.
Quite.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1059995Gully Dwarves aren't real and the Dragonlance novels are trash.
So what you're saying is there's every reason to find it shameful that has nothing to do with politics, but rather embarrassment that Gully Dwarves, Kender and Tinker Gnomes ever saw publication in an official product.
That was the poster's point. Not everything on that list is something worth defending and upholding just because someone with opposing political views hates it. Some things are just objectively bad ideas (Star Trek V for example) and worthy of scorn because they are bad ideas.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1059995Gully Dwarves aren't real and the Dragonlance novels are trash.
I have to disagree they were okay. After all they were not written to win any awards just to push the setting on readers to buy more. Try reading Karen Miller who is very misandristic towards men. Whose female characters are better, stronger faster than male characters. Whose majority of make characters are the exact opposite. Whose main female character in the Godspeaker trilogy infects another male character with magical STD to make him sterile because "reasons and feels" essentially. Whenever either a male or female writer needs to put down another character because of their gender in their writings is trash to me at least.
Look at David Eddings Elder God series. He tried to pull a fast one over his fanbase by taking characters from the Belgariand and Malleron. Changing their names and appearance yet they acted the exact same way and hoped no would notice. Except we did and he was ripped a new one by the fanbase.
Quote from: SHARK;1059935It's so frustrating dealing with these kinds of morons that seem hell-bent on corrupting and destroying our hobby.
Despite the hobby being more popular, design-diverse, and embedded in everyday culture than ever before?
This whining is at odds with basic reality.
I'm not especially sold on the elements called out in those RPGnet screenshots, but it's absurd to suggest that we can't or shouldn't look back at our hobby's history and debate the merits (or not) of particular publications, with a view to applying lessons to today.
The Mickey Rooney example I quoted is particularly egregious of course, but it's taken 50 more years for Hollywood to really start debating representation in movies.
The RPG hobby can do better than that, we don't have the embedded business and cultural obstacles, and the designers are not removed from their audience.
As a hobby we are extremely forward-looking, people are trying out new stuff all the time. For that matter, I don't consider the OSR to be a retrograde step by any means, (e.g.
Stars Without Number is brilliantly inventive).
For the record I'm a card-carrying ACKS fan, own most everything via a previous Kickstarter. I was involved in an extensive PBP on TBP until the paperwork(!) finally broke me. :)
So while this "destroying the hobby" bullshit doesn't wash it doesn't mean we can't debate the merits and flaws of earlier publications and the (cultural) considerations of future output.
Will the hobby come to an end when C7 publishes splatbooks for the 13th Doctor? I don't think so.
Quote from: sureshot;1060025I have to disagree they were okay. After all they were not written to win any awards just to push the setting on readers to buy more. Try reading Karen Miller who is very misandristic towards men. Whose female characters are better, stronger faster than male characters. Whose majority of make characters are the exact opposite. Whose main female character in the Godspeaker trilogy infects another male character with magical STD to make him sterile because "reasons and feels" essentially. Whenever either a male or female writer needs to put down another character because of their gender in their writings is trash to me at least.
Look at David Eddings Elder God series. He tried to pull a fast one over his fanbase by taking characters from the Belgariand and Malleron. Changing their names and appearance yet they acted the exact same way and hoped no would notice. Except we did and he was ripped a new one by the fanbase.
David Eddings rewrote the same story multiple times, until people finally caught on and gave him well-deserved grief over it. Even the Malloreon was a redo of the Belgariad.
Quote from: RandyB;1060031David Eddings rewrote the same story multiple times, until people finally caught on and gave him well-deserved grief over it. Even the Malloreon was a redo of the Belgariad.
The only reason to ever read Eddings was the characters and the dialog (or rather, a good subset of the characters and the dialog). There were some cringe-worthy bits in the Diamond Throne series, too, but high points from Belgariad to the end of the latter.
In the Elder Gods, Eddings deliberately threw away every reason anyone had to read him, phoned in the characters and the dialog when it wasn't actively messing it up (AKA, worse than phoned in), and all that was left was the tedious repetition.
BTW, it's a prime example of what happens when a writer is more interested in their idea and their cause, than their craft.
Quote from: Motorskills;1060027Despite the hobby being more popular, design-diverse, and embedded in everyday culture than ever before?
This whining is at odds with basic reality.
I'm not especially sold on the elements called out in those RPGnet screenshots, but it's absurd to suggest that we can't or shouldn't look back at our hobby's history and debate the merits (or not) of particular publications, with a view to applying lessons to today.
So while this "destroying the hobby" bullshit doesn't wash it doesn't mean we can't debate the merits and flaws of earlier publications and the (cultural) considerations of future output.
SHARK is complaining because those people ARE hell-bent on destroying part of the hobby. The part that a number of US belong to.
We don't care what they do with THEIR elf games as long as they let US play OUR elf games.
It is all part of the SAME hobby but apparently a certain group of people
A)Don't want US to be part of the hobby (You are fired from D&D)
B)Are only interested in telling us HOW we have to play. (Long diatribes for inclusiveness)
C)Are obviously not interested in "debate" about something even if their narratives had merit. (Check out the Ban stuff for TBP for examples of debate)
I would be interested in seeing how many of us that have been gaming since the 70s/80s were considered somewhat of a social "outcast" when we started playing. I know how many people "I" refused to play RPGs with back then...That was exactly 0 (We didn't even turn away assholes)...because almost NO ONE wanted to be part of our nerdy D&D group so we included EVERYONE that wanted to play. And now people are telling us that we are problematic because NOW the hobby has some sort of cred and "I" am gate-keeping. I see enough self-righteous moral posturing in Real Life that I don't need it from some pathetic fucks at WOTC, Green Ronin or TBP just because they believe they can finally lord it over some one. They are like the hall monitor in school who becomes a cop..."Respect my Authoritay!!"
...and it just gets tiring for people to listen to diatribes about how "bad" they are, when there are actual problems in the real world the morality police could be out solving. But that would involve them actually doing something or maybe getting dirty and they won't do that. Its much easier to preen about how 'just and good' they are on the internet and pretend that they are actually someone important.
Yeah it's always rather moronic to hear that RPGs haven't been "inclusive".
Say what? Just because you thought the people who played RPGs were gross doesn't mean we were excluding you.
And the recent narrative that there were plenty of females in the early days of D&D who wanted to play but the male gamers wouldn't allow them to join is absolutely ridiculous. I know that my gaming group back in the 1980's would have happily allowed girls to join. They didn't want to play with us. And not because gamers were mean and exclusionary. We just weren't seen as being part of the cool crowd. I don't necessarily blame the girls - peer pressure is a tough thing. But the reality is, girls were "gatekeeping" much more than guys were.
And I'm sure I would get banned at TBP for saying this. :rolleyes:
While I sympathise to some extent, I think some of that is backwards. The general public did indeed sneer at games and gamers back in the day, no doubt about that. But those of us that were in the hobby supported each other and had great times. Eventually that battle was won, in 2018, our hobby is popular, accepted, and yet remains hugely dynamic.
There have been certain changes in gaming, not least more female players, more LGBT players, etc, and as a natural extension games that reflect their interests.
And those changes have been made possible in part by those of us who can constructively look at the past and saying "that was bad, let's not do that going forward". And those projects been hugely successful. And fantastic for the hobby - new blood, new ideas, new games, new money, all of it.
While I won't seek to defend the more extreme actions that I am prepared to believe have occurred, I'm far more cognisant of the basically abhorrent pushback at the general changes in our hobby. The very suggestion that the historical depiction of Drow could be problematic is casus belli for some members of this hobby.
And I have far more issue with those folks.
Quote from: Chris24601;1060015So what you're saying is there's every reason to find it shameful that has nothing to do with politics, but rather embarrassment that Gully Dwarves, Kender and Tinker Gnomes ever saw publication in an official product.
No, I'm saying that it's absurd to examine the socio-political implications of the two-dimensional characters in a trash-tier novel by a hack author, who cranked them out like clockwork in order to harvest burger-flipping income from the pockets of teen boys. You shouldn't pretend this crap matters for any longer than it takes the self-important, Marxist dork in charge of your college lit class to give you an 'A'.
Quote from: Crusader X;1060043And the recent narrative that there were plenty of females in the early days of D&D who wanted to play but the male gamers wouldn't allow them to join is absolutely ridiculous. I know that my gaming group back in the 1980's would have happily allowed girls to join. They didn't want to play with us. And not because gamers were mean and exclusionary. We just weren't seen as being part of the cool crowd. I don't necessarily blame the girls - peer pressure is a tough thing. But the reality is, girls were "gatekeeping" much more than guys were.
And I'm sure I would get banned at TBP for saying this. :rolleyes:
I don't buy that there was gatekeeping in the early days either.
I remember when D&D first came out in the 70s, the target market was mostly wargamers of course, and one of the spins put on it was "look! Wargaming that girls like!"
And sure enough, girls did play. A small minority, but huge compared to the historical wargaming we did before. Some historical grognards complained about this new thing, but it was because FANTASY. Stupid elves. Friggin magic. But nobody, nobody complained about women joining the table. On the contrary gamers were super pumped about that. I remember well.
Quote from: moonsweeper;1060033SHARK is complaining because those people ARE hell-bent on destroying part of the hobby. The part that a number of US belong to.
We don't care what they do with THEIR elf games as long as they let US play OUR elf games.
It is all part of the SAME hobby but apparently a certain group of people
A)Don't want US to be part of the hobby (You are fired from D&D)
B)Are only interested in telling us HOW we have to play. (Long diatribes for inclusiveness)
C)Are obviously not interested in "debate" about something even if their narratives had merit. (Check out the Ban stuff for TBP for examples of debate)
I would be interested in seeing how many of us that have been gaming since the 70s/80s were considered somewhat of a social "outcast" when we started playing. I know how many people "I" refused to play RPGs with back then...That was exactly 0 (We didn't even turn away assholes)...because almost NO ONE wanted to be part of our nerdy D&D group so we included EVERYONE that wanted to play. And now people are telling us that we are problematic because NOW the hobby has some sort of cred and "I" am gate-keeping. I see enough self-righteous moral posturing in Real Life that I don't need it from some pathetic fucks at WOTC, Green Ronin or TBP just because they believe they can finally lord it over some one. They are like the hall monitor in school who becomes a cop..."Respect my Authoritay!!"
...and it just gets tiring for people to listen to diatribes about how "bad" they are, when there are actual problems in the real world the morality police could be out solving. But that would involve them actually doing something or maybe getting dirty and they won't do that. Its much easier to preen about how 'just and good' they are on the internet and pretend that they are actually someone important.
So much agreed and seconded. It's easy to say were not interested in listening to the other side. Except the other side in the argument has made it clear they don't want to listen to us at all. Many in the hobby were diverse, mostly accepting of gays ( i had to toss a homophobe or two out of my games) and we sure as hell at least my group would never turn a female gamer away if they wanted to join. Sorry but their was no one remotely transgendered back then. If they were they kept it hidden because sadly they would lose their jobs and/or become social pariahs.
I could understand if only a few things both the regressive leftist in Rpgs. Yet they see evil everywhere and with anything. While making it very clear all they want is kumba-yah echo style chamber. If one does not agree with them 10000% your the enemy. I tried to work with them yet after being banned from rpg.net and seeing how I'm such a evil person according to the Paizo devs. Well collectively as a whole the Rpg regressive can go fuck themselves.
Quote from: Crusader X;1060043And the recent narrative that there were plenty of females in the early days of D&D who wanted to play but the male gamers wouldn't allow them to join is absolutely ridiculous. I know that my gaming group back in the 1980's would have happily allowed girls to join. They didn't want to play with us. And not because gamers were mean and exclusionary. We just weren't seen as being part of the cool crowd. I don't necessarily blame the girls - peer pressure is a tough thing. But the reality is, girls were "gatekeeping" much more than guys were.
I can kind of understand the younger generation because they were not born then and were not there to experience the lack of women in the hobby. It's the 35-45 year olds like myself. When I began and maybe it was just my area women would not be caught dead playing rpgs, reading comics, or playing computer games. That was a hobby for losers and nerds and if they wanted to do date the popular guys they would pretty much ignore it. Even then I began to see more female gamers in the 90s once I went to college. Even then they were a definite minority compared to men and pretty much most of the time the sterotype of the awkward male gamer with no social skills and not very attractive except for being female. Sorry but I'm not going to sugarcoat my experiences. We had some attractive female gamers yet they were as rare as a blue moon. We asked women to join our groups if they say no we cannot force them too. In any case let the Regressive rpers try and rewrite history because they don't like what actually happened. We know the truth.
It was like the time I went on a comic forum and one of the members tried to do the same thing insisting that his family who lived in the South accepted his uncle coming out gay in the 1970s in the South of the USA. They were all of course completely endorsing and accepting of his choice. When in reality maybe one or two if them many would accept his coming out and he would be a social pariah.
Quote from: Motorskills;1060044There have been certain changes in gaming, not least more female players, more LGBT players, etc, and as a natural extension games that reflect their interests.
And those changes have been made possible in part by those of us who can constructively look at the past and saying "that was bad, let's not do that going forward".
You're making an assumption that the popularity of gaming is partly due the removal of certain content we see today as "problematic". I haven't particularly seen that, and I'm not really sure how that would even be measured. The one large event where I did personally see a massive influx of women into the hobby was Vampire the Masquerade. I don't recall the material for that game being any more inclusive than D&D 2e. If anything it touched on darker subjects. IMO, the reason why Vampire worked was it tapped into interests of women at the time(gothic punk was big, Anne Rice was cool and there was an explosion of authors like Poppy Z Brite writing that genre of material).
I have seen people become interested in RPGs because of a game system being easier to play or dealing with a genre they're interested in(Star Wars, Twilight 2000, Call of Cthulhu). I haven't seen people being turned off of RPGs because of drow, sand orcs, sea elves, character cover art being a white person, or whatever. The only people I see being upset over that are SJWs who to me seem like they're not happy unless they're being upset over something.
I'm personally not against RPGs tossing out bad ideas like gully dwarves, chainmail bikinis, and having settings and main NPCs that aren't all white people. The problem is when that becomes a witch hunt. That will drive off new players as no normal person wants to spend their hobby time dealing with college level political drama.
Quote from: Motorskills;1060044W
And those changes have been made possible in part by those of us who can constructively look at the past and saying "that was bad, let's not do that going forward".
I think the idea that the current popularity of D&D was due to SJWs doing socjus, is silly. Normal people of all sexes and races rarely find anything 'problematic', and certainly not stuff like drow. The same player who posted a punch-a-D&D-Nazi meme to my Meetup Facebook group, plays a female Drow PC - she obviously sees no contradiction.
Quote from: Dracones;1060054I'm personally not against RPGs tossing out bad ideas like gully dwarves, chainmail bikinis...
Yeah, topless amazons are much better.
Quote from: Dracones;1060054The one large event where I did personally see a massive influx of women into the hobby was Vampire the Masquerade. I don't recall the material for that game being any more inclusive than D&D 2e. If anything it touched on darker subjects. IMO, the reason why Vampire worked was it tapped into interests of women at the time...
Yes, this is how things actually work. Something catches the current zeitgeist, and people go for it. It has nothing to do with removing Politically Incorrect elements; vampires for instance are not particularly PC.
I do notice that the more liberal my friends, the more they do not value anything old or historical.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1060048No, I'm saying that it's absurd to examine the socio-political implications of the two-dimensional characters in a trash-tier novel by a hack author, who cranked them out like clockwork in order to harvest burger-flipping income from the pockets of teen boys. You shouldn't pretend this crap matters for any longer than it takes the self-important, Marxist dork in charge of your college lit class to give you an 'A'.
Unfortunately, it is still relevant and matters to me because there are three gamers in my area, one or more of whom always end up in games I play in, who consider Dragonlance to be awesome and who regularly want to play Kender and Tinker Gnomes (and play halflings and regular gnomes as them when they can't).
Anything I can provide that makes them feel ashamed of wanting to play such dumbass things (or make the GM come down hard on allowing them into his game out of a desire to give the players something they want) is a win in my book.
Quote from: S'mon;1060058Yeah, topless amazons are much better.
I agree 10 000%:p!
Quote from: Chris24601;1060064Unfortunately, it is still relevant and matters to me because there are three gamers in my area, one or more of whom always end up in games I play in, who consider Dragonlance to be awesome and who regularly want to play Kender and Tinker Gnomes (and play halflings and regular gnomes as them when they can't).
Anything I can provide that makes them feel ashamed of wanting to play such dumbass things (or make the GM come down hard on allowing them into his game out of a desire to give the players something they want) is a win in my book.
Just make a literary analysis, followed by a world building analysis, why those racesare stupid. Then stop playing with griefers, because that's like the ultimate griefer's races.
No politics required where common sense should suffice;).
Quote from: Chris24601;1060064Unfortunately, it is still relevant and matters to me because there are three gamers in my area, one or more of whom always end up in games I play in, who consider Dragonlance to be awesome and who regularly want to play Kender and Tinker Gnomes (and play halflings and regular gnomes as them when they can't).
Anything I can provide that makes them feel ashamed of wanting to play such dumbass things (or make the GM come down hard on allowing them into his game out of a desire to give the players something they want) is a win in my book.
You can't make an idiot feel ashamed for liking something that sucks. For example, look how ineffective people have been at trying to shame me for liking 4e.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1060080You can't make an idiot feel ashamed for liking something that sucks. For example, look how ineffective people have been at trying to shame me for liking 4e.
LOL. You and me both. :cool:
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4E like other editions of D&D had it merits and flaws. Why no enjoy more than one version of D&D.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1060080You can't make an idiot feel ashamed for liking something that sucks. For example, look how ineffective people have been at trying to shame me for liking 4e.
The only problem with this statement is that 4e is an objectively good game.
Maybe not "great" "D&D". But the game itself is fantastic and WotC had to crit fail in a lot of different ways for 4e to flop like it did. (Marketing, licensing to incentives people like Paizo to keep supporting 3e, etc.)
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1060048No, I'm saying that it's absurd to examine the socio-political implications of the two-dimensional characters in a trash-tier novel by a hack author, who cranked them out like clockwork in order to harvest burger-flipping income from the pockets of teen boys. You shouldn't pretend this crap matters for any longer than it takes the self-important, Marxist dork in charge of your college lit class to give you an 'A'.
Is that what you were saying? Why didn't you say so earlier and at least make it clear that you didn't actually bother to read the post you were responding to?
Quote from: Dracones;1060054You're making an assumption that the popularity of gaming is partly due the removal of certain content we see today as "problematic". I haven't particularly seen that, and I'm not really sure how that would even be measured. The one large event where I did personally see a massive influx of women into the hobby was Vampire the Masquerade. I don't recall the material for that game being any more inclusive than D&D 2e. If anything it touched on darker subjects. IMO, the reason why Vampire worked was it tapped into interests of women at the time(gothic punk was big, Anne Rice was cool and there was an explosion of authors like Poppy Z Brite writing that genre of material).
Absolutely TTRPG VtM brought a lot of women into the hobby, albeit I'd argue that the LARP was maybe an even bigger pull for them (i.e. via women already playing the game). But the rise in popularity of TTRPGs with women in the past few years can't easily be sourced to VtM.
And while I agree that measurement is hard, it's not impossible. At the last
RolePlay Rally (https://www.roleplayrally.com/) I attended, I was one of two guys on a table of eight including the DM, a first for me in 40 years of (convention TT D&D) gaming. We had a blast, as expected.
When we went to the bar after our one-shot I chatted briefly with a group of the ladies, asked how they got into the hobby, what made an event like this attractive to them etc. Their stories were individual, but the themes were similar, chiefly that 5e resonated with them and that they felt welcome.
Now I give more credit to the convention organizer than the WOTC Art Director, but it's not a zero-sum game. All these things add up over time. That's anecdotal, of course, but it also rings true with every online space I come across. Something is different, and it is the culture, as much as it is the game material itself.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1060080You can't make an idiot feel ashamed for liking something that sucks. For example, look how ineffective people have been at trying to shame me for liking 4e.
Quote from: S'mon;1060082LOL. You and me both. :cool:
Quote from: Rhedyn;1060084The only problem with this statement is that 4e is an objectively good game.
Maybe not "great" "D&D". But the game itself is fantastic and WotC had to crit fail in a lot of different ways for 4e to flop like it did. (Marketing, licensing to incentives people like Paizo to keep supporting 3e, etc.)
Put me down for number four in favor of this position.
A lot of my work in creating my own system has been in taking the best parts of 4E (tactical combat, interesting martial classes, choices to make about your character every time they level up) and melding them with a more sandbox type setup (among other things... less extreme level scaling so large numbers of lower level opponents can remain a threat, replacing narrative triggers with real time ones and completely decoupling wealth/expected gear from level advancement).
Quote from: Motorskills;1060091And while I agree that measurement is hard, it's not impossible. At the last RolePlay Rally (https://www.roleplayrally.com/) I attended, I was one of two guys on a table of eight including the DM, a first for me in 40 years of (convention TT D&D) gaming. We had a blast, as expected.
When we went to the bar after our one-shot I chatted briefly with a group of the ladies, asked how they got into the hobby, what made an event like this attractive to them etc. Their stories were individual, but the themes were similar, chiefly that 5e resonated with them and that they felt welcome.
Now I give more credit to the convention organizer than the WOTC Art Director, but it's not a zero-sum game. All these things add up over time. That's anecdotal, of course, but it also rings true with every online space I come across. Something is different, and it is the culture, as much as it is the game material itself.
I think the anecdotal is fine for a lot of this stuff. I'm not sure how you'd do a proper study on it. I'd be interested in what aspects of the culture of 5E brought them in. I don't particularly feel that the internal culture of D&D has changed all that much in 10 years. The external culture seems to have changed pretty dramatically with 5E feeling like it has more of a mainstream appeal due to marketing(youtube/twitch shows) and ease of play. I'd be curious if the vibe for them felt better due to the mainstream appeal(not just a geek thing anymore) or if the cons/gaming stores/shopping experience(Amazon vs comic store) changed how newbies interact with the experience.
I like 4E as well, and I think its failures were due to a combination of missteps on WotC's part (marketing mistakes, H1 Keep on the Shadowfell, high barriers to entry with the perceived need for minis and no cheap alternative) and outside factors (a fanbase that was primed to resent the changeover, a competitor ready to swoop in and take advantage, the world economy tanking just after you launch a high-cost line).
I think 5E has succeeded by lowering the entry barriers, pushing the nostalgia, and taking advantage of new technology that allows the game to actually be demonstrated easily.
Quote from: S'mon;1060059Yes, this is how things actually work. Something catches the current zeitgeist, and people go for it. It has nothing to do with removing Politically Incorrect elements; vampires for instance are not particularly PC.
Did you see the big Vampire 5E drama? The SJW brigade accused the V5 team of
pandering to nazis because they dared to
mention their existence in one sentence in the Brujah clan writeup, and when questioned about it, White Wolf's response was basically(paraphrasing here) "That kind of thing is a problem in the real world, and since the World of Darkness is supposed to be an
even worse version of the real world, it's something we're not going to completely ignore. Plus vampires are in many ways horrible people, so some of them will follow horrible ideologies. We're acknowledging it, not endorsing it."
The SJWs absolutely lost their shit.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1060104Did you see the big Vampire 5E drama? The SJW brigade accused the V5 team of pandering to nazis because they dared to mention their existence in one sentence in the Brujah clan writeup, and when questioned about it, White Wolf's response was basically(paraphrasing here) "That kind of thing is a problem in the real world, and since the World of Darkness is supposed to be an even worse version of the real world, it's something we're not going to completely ignore. Plus vampires are in many ways horrible people, so some of them will follow horrible ideologies. We're acknowledging it, not endorsing it."
The SJWs absolutely lost their shit.
Greetings!
Wow. Excellent insights there, friend. I didn't know much about that drama-fest at all, as I'm not a fan of the Vampire game. However, from a philosophical point of view, isn't it strange that within such a milieu as presented by the Vampire world--it is just fine to be a vampire, where such creatures torture and slaughter mortals *like cattle*--feeding off of them, draining their blood, and leaving their victims as drained, husk-like corpses--that is all ok and perfectly morally acceptable--but being a *NAZI* is well, that is just going too far!!! LOL. Do you see the fucked up moral reasoning there? Naturally, I don't expect most of the liberal SJW crowd to ever consider such dissonance in their philosophy.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I did come across the recent Vampire blowup.
Re 5e DnD popularity, I do think some design choices contributed, not just a change in the zeitgeist. I think the rules are more accessible than 3e-4e. I even think the art may have been a factor though I have no evidence of this, and I see 20-22 year old female players happily playing half naked Amazon warrior PCs in my Wilderlands games. But maybe if there were half naked Amazons all over the core books it would deter some people. And even if Amazons in loincloths are fine (they are) :D impractical boobplate armour is a different issue. I recall a 4e-era female player who complained about the boobplate picture on her pregen Warlord PC's sheet.
I definitely don't think that fantasy versions of human cultures is a negative issue for anyone but extremists. I could imagine this happening but never seen it. Something like The Atruaghin Clans is only going to offend those looking to be offended, it is a typical fantasy mash up pastiche.
Edit: It occurs to me that if WoTC keeps doubling down on making Forgotten Realms into Jeremy Crawford's Magical Realm, it could end up having the opposite effect, and begin to deter mainstream normal people. TSR was right to tone down the more egregious sexual elements of Ed Greenwood's Magical Realm when turning Forgotten Realms into a mainstream commercial setting; WoTC could end up doing the reverse if they stay on present course. That Jeremy's interests & views are now considered Politically Correct by the West's ruling elites, and normal in Seattle Liberal circles, I don't think really changes this calculus. They need to keep it at a level where it won't deter most people.
Let me repeat myself, for those of you in the back, again.
Gaming has ALWAYS been inclusive, it's just never been socially acceptable. Now that it is, the normies are doing what they always do when they take something over, push out the undesirables: Most of us.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1060131Now that it is, the normies are doing what they always do when they take something over, push out the undesirables: Most of us.
I don't see normies doing this. I see one bunch of oddballs, the SJW freaks, attacking other groups of oddballs (the grognards, the gearheads, etc). SJW freaks are a million miles from 'normie'. It's the same type of entryism that provoked Gamergate. And that previously destroyed the science fiction & fantasy literary community.
Normies just want to try playing this odd game "Dungeons & Dragon" they've seen on TV/Youtube.
SJWs do want to identify themselves with the Normies, as part of their plan to take over the hobby, but you only have to look at them to see they're not the same. SJW "Inclusivity" is no more inclusive of Normies than it is of Grognards. Ultimately it destroys everything.
Still curious about the Crawford/FR stuff. Google has been unkind.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1060140Still curious about the Crawford/FR stuff. Google has been unkind.
Here's Pundit on Crawfordian Waterdeep:
[video=youtube;R29Y_nwgXoQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R29Y_nwgXoQ[/youtube]
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1060104The SJWs absolutely lost their shit.
Of course they would. How dare the Vampire devs not accept their demands and bend over backwards to fulfill those demands. I probably will never buy V5 yet good on them for standing up to the SJWs. And they are right about vampires too often gamers forgot that they are bad people who follow horrible ideologies. So why would they be presented as being wholesome good creatures.
You can't reason with somebody who says you can't loosely base some bad guys in your game off real-life bad guys because the real-life bad guys are bad.
Quote from: Motorskills;1060027So while this "destroying the hobby" bullshit doesn't wash it doesn't mean we can't debate the merits and flaws of earlier publications and the (cultural) considerations of future output.
These cultural considerations only matter to a small fraction of players or potential players. And I'd wager most of the people championing this stuff online aren't even actively gaming - their participation on RPG forums is simply an extension of their political activism. Does it make D&D more broadly appealing if the covers of books feature a lot of female characters? Sure. But it's not as though D&D books never featured women on their covers. And when you get down to the level of the 'drow are racist' argument, you're far, far from mainstream concerns, and deep into the fever pits of ideological dogma that the vast majority of gamers don't subscribe to.
Quote from: S'mon;1060057I think the idea that the current popularity of D&D was due to SJWs doing socjus, is silly. Normal people of all sexes and races rarely find anything 'problematic', and certainly not stuff like drow.
Yep. The Atlantic recently did a story on a new study into social tribes and concluded progressive activists make up only small fraction of Americans (8 per cent), and the great majority of people can't stand their dogma:
Americans Strongly Dislike PC Culture (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/large-majorities-dislike-political-correctness/572581/?utm_content=edit-promo&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=the-atlantic&utm_medium=social&utm_term=2018-10-10T11%3A00%3A08)
QuoteThe study should also make progressives more self-critical about the way in which speech norms serve as a marker of social distinction. I don't doubt the sincerity of the affluent and highly educated people who call others out if they use "problematic" terms or perpetrate an act of "cultural appropriation." But what the vast majority of Americans seem to see--at least according to the research conducted for "Hidden Tribes"--is not so much genuine concern for social justice as the preening display of cultural superiority.
Given demographics, I don't doubt that progressive activists make up a larger proportion of the geek gamer market than the population at large. But they're still only a fraction of the market. We shouldn't mistake their zeal and persistence for popularity.
Quote from: S'mon;1060128Edit: It occurs to me that if WoTC keeps doubling down on making Forgotten Realms into Jeremy Crawford's Magical Realm, it could end up having the opposite effect, and begin to deter mainstream normal people. TSR was right to tone down the more egregious sexual elements of Ed Greenwood's Magical Realm when turning Forgotten Realms into a mainstream commercial setting; WoTC could end up doing the reverse if they stay on present course. That Jeremy's interests & views are now considered Politically Correct by the West's ruling elites, and normal in Seattle Liberal circles, I don't think really changes this calculus. They need to keep it at a level where it won't deter most people.
See above. Unless WotC's strategy is to market D&D exclusively at progressive, educated, affluent, urban whites under the age of 40, hewing to progressive activist ideology will likely alienate more customers than it attracts. And even in that demographic most dislike political correctness. This is another case of a tribe believing it's much larger than it is due to the distorting, echo-chamber effect of social media.
Again, from the Atlantic article:
QuoteThe gap between the progressive perception and the reality of public views on this issue could do damage to the institutions that the woke elite collectively run. A publication whose editors think they represent the views of a majority of Americans when they actually speak to a small minority of the country may eventually see its influence wane and its readership decline.
Quote from: Haffrung;1060153These cultural considerations only matter to a small fraction of players or potential players. And I'd wager most of the people championing this stuff online aren't even actively gaming - their participation on RPG forums is simply an extension of their political activism. Does it make D&D more broadly appealing if the covers of books feature a lot of female characters? Sure. But it's not as though D&D books never featured women on their covers. And when you get down to the level of the 'drow are racist' argument, you're far, far from mainstream concerns, and deep into the fever pits of ideological dogma that the vast majority of gamers don't subscribe
I see it from the other direction. I firmly believe that the massive - massive - uptick in gaming and gamers is definitely related to the hobby itself being more welcoming.
Rulesets with low threshold for buy-in is a factor. Artwork that has wide appeal is a factor. Diversity of game authors is a factor. Education of the existing hobby membership is a factor. Improved communication tools is a (huge) factor, especially social media. The parallel growth of the boardgames hobby is a factor.
Now there can be a debate about the imagery (etc) of the Drow, and there's probably some value to be had there.
But l don't think pointing to isolated examples is necessarily that helpful. With the VtM5 discussion, the concerns were complex than are being discussed in this thread. Those debates will swing back and forth within a relatively small segment of the hobby, same for the debates over the Drow.
So your first line is nominally correct, but it misses the larger point that these debates are outliers of a shift that's already been completed for the most part. The hobby is popular in the mainstream, it's played across all generations, all that stuff.
"Destroying the hobby" is the exact opposite of what has happened.
Quote from: Motorskills;1060163Education of the existing hobby membership is a factor.
No it isn't; and if you guys did succeed in your goals you would destroy RPGing as a broad-based hobby the same way you destroyed science fiction & fantasy literary fandom, and tried but failed to destroy videogaming.
Quote from: S'mon;1060165No it isn't; and if you guys did succeed in your goals you would destroy RPGing as a broad-based hobby the same way you destroyed science fiction & fantasy fandom, and tried but failed to destroy videogaming.
Again, I would point to Hollywood, plenty of lessons to be drawn from there, not just Weinstein, but "Ask Her More", and stuff like that.
And you can bury your head in the sand about science fiction fandom, but I think that arena is better off without Breen/Zimmer, and with fewer female cosplayers getting groped at conventions. As for videogames, GamerGater remains a shitstain on all of fandom.
The RPG hobby is thriving and fun, doesn't mean there aren't still things that can be improved.
I agree that Hollywood could use more diversity. That it's a good thing that less woman are getting groped at conventions.
That being said Hollywood and other industries have and refuse learn about forcing diversity on the viewers imo. It's great that their a strong female leads in all types of media. Not so much when other male characters tend to look like idiots and weak compared to their female counterparts. Funny enough just like female viewers don't like the reverse male viewers strangely enough feel the same. Hollywood seems to think toss in diversity and inclusiveness with a mediocre script and it will make them millions. It usually does not imo. They can be as diverse as they want in Hollywood yet don't expect them to be diverse too much because the Chinese market simply will not accept it imo. That market is their biggest profitable market. Unlike IDW who prefers to lose money. hollywood will make a token effort at both so they say they are and make sure they rake in the profit.
Again nothing wrong with inclusiveness and diversity in rpgs which to me at least they always were. It's the insane, trigger happy special snowflakes who see rapist, racist, misogynists in every dark corner in every home, convention or in the street. Everything and anything is offensive and if one cannot see why that is a bad thing your not but a disingenuous piece of crap.
Quote from: Haffrung;1060153These cultural considerations only matter to a small fraction of players or potential players.
This is actually why SJW entryism works. Very few of your customers (or potential customers) care at all about internal corporate culture. People who obsess over the cultural implications of dime-novel characters take over the company prior to dropping political nukes on the product.
QuoteThe gap between the progressive perception and the reality of public views on this issue could do damage to the institutions that the woke elite collectively run. A publication whose editors think they represent the views of a majority of Americans when they actually speak to a small minority of the country may eventually see its influence wane and its readership decline.
This is what happened to comic books.
Quote from: Motorskills;1060166Again, I would point to Hollywood, plenty of lessons to be drawn from there, not just Weinstein, but "Ask Her More", and stuff like that.
Actually, the biggest lesson to learn from Hollywood is when celebrities and creators use the Oscars to pontificate about their dogmas and causes, people turn the channel in massive numbers. To the point where Oscars ratings continue to plummet to historical lows.
Quote from: sureshot;1060167I agree that Hollywood could use more diversity.
Hollywood could use less raping - of men, women and children.
To me it was very notable that the media swiftly turned Weinstein > #MeToo from an issue about the horrible culture of Hollywood - an actual "rape culture" - into an attack on men in general.
Quote from: Motorskills;1060163But l don't think pointing to isolated examples is necessarily that helpful. With the VtM5 discussion, the concerns were complex than are being discussed in this thread. Those debates will swing back and forth within a relatively small segment of the hobby, same for the debates over the Drow.
This is bullshit, and you know it. What happened was basically a witch hunt. Here's what happened.
1) Members of the Brujah clan are known for adopting and hyperfocusing on a particular ideology and going balls to the wall for it. It could be something they were into before their change, or something they grabbed onto after the change, but the end result is the same. It could be something good, something neutral, or something bad - it'll vary by individual vampire. But as vampires, they're
not better and more enlightened than normal people, so if a regular human might adopt it, it's fair game for a Brujah. White Wolf dared to mention Nazism as one of the various possibilities, and like I said, the SJW's lost their shit. "How dare they say that a creature that's supposed to be
worse than normal people in a world that's supposed to be
worse than the real world
might possibly(but not necessarily) adopt a particular horrible ideology!"
2) SJWs attack, attack, attack.
3) WW comes back with what I said earlier. A comment that essentially states that they're going to acknowledge and not shy away from real world problems in creating their
even worse than the real world setting. They quote some statistic about the number of "real nazis" in some European country that's pretty obviously inflated. Something ridiculous like 25%. So it's pretty obvious that they're also drinking from the SJW "anyone to the right of me is a nazi" bs, just not to quite the same extreme as the people attacking them.
4) The comment is of course taken completely out of context, showing that the SJWs doing so either lack basic reading comprehension skills or that they're willing to intentionally twist statements out of context in order to not have to admit defeat(they're not
entirely homogeneous, so I'd wager that some of them fall into both camps). And they double down and start accusing WW of
pandering to nazis and
trying to attract the nazi dollar when White Wolf said nothing even remotely close to that.
Never attempt to appease hate groups. They are only looking for reasons to be upset. Nothing will mollify them.
Quote from: Motorskills;1060163Education of the existing hobby membership is a factor.
Not this bullshit again. :rolleyes:
We've already been through this one, it was the argument where I gave you an intellectual wedgie and you became so butthurt over your trouncing that you publicly announced that you had put me on your Ignore List (even though you still read my posts).
Quote from: jeff37923;1060184Not this bullshit again. :rolleyes:
We've already been through this one, it was the argument where I gave you an intellectual wedgie and you became so butthurt over your trouncing that you publicly announced that you had put me on your Ignore List (even though you still read my posts).
Greetings!
Oh really? What the hell does the hobby membership need to be "educated" on?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK;1060185Greetings!
Oh really? What the hell does the hobby membership need to be "educated" on?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Here's a radical example for you, please don't faint. The membership was (re)educated on how early RPGs were actually played, and this grew into the OSR. The OSR in turn worked to attract some older players back into the hobby, and provided additional tools for (existing) older players to play with their kids etc.
Quote from: sureshot;1060167I agree that Hollywood could use more diversity.
Define diversity, because surface traits are only a part of it. Diversity of thought should also be part of it. But no one wants to see that.
Quote from: sureshot;1060167That it's a good thing that less woman are getting groped at conventions.
Have you seen female cosplayers? They don't do it any less!
Quote from: sureshot;1060167That being said Hollywood and other industries have and refuse learn about forcing diversity on the viewers imo. It's great that their a strong female leads in all types of media. Not so much when other male characters tend to look like idiots and weak compared to their female counterparts. Funny enough just like female viewers don't like the reverse male viewers strangely enough feel the same. Hollywood seems to think toss in diversity and inclusiveness with a mediocre script and it will make them millions. It usually does not imo. They can be as diverse as they want in Hollywood yet don't expect them to be diverse too much because the Chinese market simply will not accept it imo. That market is their biggest profitable market. Unlike IDW who prefers to lose money. hollywood will make a token effort at both so they say they are and make sure they rake in the profit.
Again nothing wrong with inclusiveness and diversity in rpgs which to me at least they always were. It's the insane, trigger happy special snowflakes who see rapist, racist, misogynists in every dark corner in every home, convention or in the street. Everything and anything is offensive and if one cannot see why that is a bad thing your not but a disingenuous piece of crap.
EVERYTHING is wrong with diversity and inclusiveness if you spend your time pushing people OUT. That's not inclusiveness. But people say it is!
What the hell is wrong with people???
Quote from: SHARK;1060185Greetings!
Oh really? What the hell does the hobby membership need to be "educated" on?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Motorskills;1060191Here's a radical example for you, please don't faint. The membership was (re)educated on how early RPGs were actually played, and this grew into the OSR. The OSR in turn worked to attract some older players back into the hobby, and provided additional tools for (existing) older players to play with their kids etc.
As you can see, SHARK, Motorskills still reads my posts even though he has publicly declared that I am on his Ignore List. Motorskills is our resident SJW who has lectured the forum repeatedly on how we need to be re-educated on being inclusive and welcoming to the extent that players should be forced to create and play characters that are opposite sex or gay or African-American or Mexican-American or trans or what-the-fuck-ever in order to broaden our collective consciousness, even if the players do not wish to do that.
Here is the thread where I handed Motorskills his ass, if you are interested. (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?38991-On-Representation)
EDIT: And just for completeness, the Motorskills Intellectual Wedgie thread was created in response to this linked thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?38972-Favorite-gay-characters), so you might want to start there.
I'll admit to being slightly torn. The more game companies that go 'woke' mean less competition for mine, but if WotC gets TOO woke it'll drive people away before they'd be invested enough in enjoying TTRPGs to look for low cost of entry alternatives.
Quote from: Chris24601;1060198I'll admit to being slightly torn. The more game companies that go 'woke' mean less competition for mine, but if WotC gets TOO woke it'll drive people away before they'd be invested enough in enjoying TTRPGs to look for low cost of entry alternatives.
WotC is likely too beholden to Hasbro and the breadth of the D&D brand to go hyper-woke; they may take a few steps further into progressive thinking, but I don't think they'll ever be as dedicated to the heresy as Paizo, Onyx Path, or TBP.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1060203WotC is likely too beholden to Hasbro and the breadth of the D&D brand to go hyper-woke; they may take a few steps further into progressive thinking, but I don't think they'll ever be as dedicated to the heresy as Paizo, Onyx Path, or TBP.
Yeah Hasbro has actual suits.
At the same time we shouldn't be surprised if D&D splat books contain weird things. Those are niche products in a niche industry.
Surprised we haven't got more monster manuals though...
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1060192Define diversity, because surface traits are only a part of it. Diversity of thought should also be part of it. But no one wants to see that.
I agree though diversity of thought is seen as a bad thing. I don't agree with that sentiment at all yet it seems all too popular.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1060192Have you seen female cosplayers? They don't do it any less!
I don't doubt it.
It just that I was thought to respect and protect women by my family at a early age. That being said not to the insane destroying other men lives on world alone stance that seems again all too popular at the moment.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1060192EVERYTHING is wrong with diversity and inclusiveness if you spend your time pushing people OUT. That's not inclusiveness. But people say it is!
What the hell is wrong with people???
Just because I think we should have both does not mean that I want to push people out. I'm Ok if they choose a black actor for Superman. Though I know some will not yet I can respect that. I don't mind seeing a strong female lead as long as the men are not portrayed as idiots. I don't care the sexuality of an actor if he gives us a good performance. Nothing is wrong with me. I'm not the second coming of Motorskills. I just believe in both yet not to the point of excluding others especially if they have different view points.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1060209Surprised we haven't got more monster manuals though...
That is a good thing to myself at least. Paizo Bestiary are a good example of too many Monster Manuals not enough variety. How is a Ocean/River/Pond/Lake Giant that different from one to the other. Too many similar monsters with similar environments. Give me variety not more copy and paste and a "it's a new monster really" nudge, nudge, wink wink that Paizo tries to do.
Quote from: jeff37923;1060196As you can see, SHARK, Motorskills still reads my posts even though he has publicly declared that I am on his Ignore List. Motorskills is our resident SJW who has lectured the forum repeatedly on how we need to be re-educated on being inclusive and welcoming to the extent that players should be forced to create and play characters that are opposite sex or gay or African-American or Mexican-American or trans or what-the-fuck-ever in order to broaden our collective consciousness, even if the players do not wish to do that.
Here is the thread where I handed Motorskills his ass, if you are interested. (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?38991-On-Representation)
EDIT: And just for completeness, the Motorskills Intellectual Wedgie thread was created in response to this linked thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?38972-Favorite-gay-characters), so you might want to start there.
Greetings!
Oh, Geesus, Jeff! The SJW marxist syrup just doesn't stop, does it? LOL. Dayum, Jeff, you took him TO THE WOODSHED, BROTHER!!!!!!
I read all 16 pages of it. LOL!
The debate made me wonder though--and you kept on relentlessly hammering him with it--why does "representation" of whatever *flavor of fruit* matter in a particular campaign, where such *flavor of fruit* doesn't exist--like Pundit talked about, because it's not part of the historical milieu--or like you said often, if such a detail just doesn't matter? Such detail is *extraneous* and a meaningless *embellishment* that doesn't add anything to the campaign? Tenbones really went to work on him, repeatedly asking, why do I need to have that? Explain what it adds to the campaign, or what *specifically* I'm missing if I don't have *whatever* in the game? He never really did answer you or Tenbones. I saw a lot of circle-jerking, *circular reasoning*, waffling, and tap-dancing instead.
In my own campaigns--I have dozens of races of creatures and characters, of many different colors. LOL! Most of the *human* characters tend to be some flavour of white, brown, or black. The white is predominant because it is largely a Ancient European environment. Brown, in the sense of Turkish/Semetic/Arabic/Egyptian; Black, in the sense of African-like. There's also some Asian-like peoples. I don't have any Brown *Hispanics*--because the area where much of the campaign being played, doesn't have a "Hispanic" area. Does that mean I am racist against Hispanics, and I am guilty of *erasure* because I don't have them represented in the campaign? (so far, anyways, theoretically) The men players in my campaigns like fucking women. The women--well, they like fucking men. So, *gay* or *lesbian* or *transwhatever* characters don't make it "on screen." (Theoretically, of course, they *exist* in the campaign world though.) Most of my players would have absolutely *zero* interest in such NPC's. Certainly, they may be interested in them for whatever other important reason--but specifically, to the fact that such a character is gay, lesbian or trans? Entirely irrelevant and uninteresting. Am I guilty then, of *erasing* them because I haven't represented them? It just seems to be an entirely irrelevant detail. Like with my Hispanic example above, they do in fact, exist in the campaign world--but haven't made it "on-screen" as it were. My black friends who play--and I work with them to draw up some cool way as to why they have gotten to whatever area they are in--which typically hasn't been in their homelands, because the entire rest of the group is *over there* where there just are no black people, or very few. My black friends have understood the geography and culture quite well, and we roll on and have a good time. None of them have said, "Geesus, SHARK, you must be racist against black people because the campaign area doesn't have a bunch of black people in it." I think Pundit said it--I have whatever races or colors present if the historical or campaign context makes sense for it--not because I'm trying to fucking "Virtue Signal." I like that. As I mentioned, I have a fucking rainbow of races and cultures in the campaign. At any given time, not including *flavor A* doesn't mean that I am purposely exclusing them--it just means that whatever fruit flavor isn't currently historically or campaign relevant. I am just boggled why these people think that they need to go around and mind-fuck everyone because they are not *inclusive* enough by having every possible fruit flavor constantly present.
Am I making any sense, Jeff? LOL. Great stuff, my friend!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Just to state the obvious, being inclusive as in open and welcoming is different from being inclusive as in forced diversity covering for conformity of thought.
Quote from: SHARK;1060218Greetings!
Oh, Geesus, Jeff! The SJW marxist syrup just doesn't stop, does it? LOL. Dayum, Jeff, you took him TO THE WOODSHED, BROTHER!!!!!!
I read all 16 pages of it. LOL!
The debate made me wonder though--and you kept on relentlessly hammering him with it--why does "representation" of whatever *flavor of fruit* matter in a particular campaign, where such *flavor of fruit* doesn't exist--like Pundit talked about, because it's not part of the historical milieu--or like you said often, if such a detail just doesn't matter? Such detail is *extraneous* and a meaningless *embellishment* that doesn't add anything to the campaign? Tenbones really went to work on him, repeatedly asking, why do I need to have that? Explain what it adds to the campaign, or what *specifically* I'm missing if I don't have *whatever* in the game? He never really did answer you or Tenbones. I saw a lot of circle-jerking, *circular reasoning*, waffling, and tap-dancing instead.
In my own campaigns--I have dozens of races of creatures and characters, of many different colors. LOL! Most of the *human* characters tend to be some flavour of white, brown, or black. The white is predominant because it is largely a Ancient European environment. Brown, in the sense of Turkish/Semetic/Arabic/Egyptian; Black, in the sense of African-like. There's also some Asian-like peoples. I don't have any Brown *Hispanics*--because the area where much of the campaign being played, doesn't have a "Hispanic" area. Does that mean I am racist against Hispanics, and I am guilty of *erasure* because I don't have them represented in the campaign? (so far, anyways, theoretically) The men players in my campaigns like fucking women. The women--well, they like fucking men. So, *gay* or *lesbian* or *transwhatever* characters don't make it "on screen." (Theoretically, of course, they *exist* in the campaign world though.) Most of my players would have absolutely *zero* interest in such NPC's. Certainly, they may be interested in them for whatever other important reason--but specifically, to the fact that such a character is gay, lesbian or trans? Entirely irrelevant and uninteresting. Am I guilty then, of *erasing* them because I haven't represented them? It just seems to be an entirely irrelevant detail. Like with my Hispanic example above, they do in fact, exist in the campaign world--but haven't made it "on-screen" as it were. My black friends who play--and I work with them to draw up some cool way as to why they have gotten to whatever area they are in--which typically hasn't been in their homelands, because the entire rest of the group is *over there* where there just are no black people, or very few. My black friends have understood the geography and culture quite well, and we roll on and have a good time. None of them have said, "Geesus, SHARK, you must be racist against black people because the campaign area doesn't have a bunch of black people in it." I think Pundit said it--I have whatever races or colors present if the historical or campaign context makes sense for it--not because I'm trying to fucking "Virtue Signal." I like that. As I mentioned, I have a fucking rainbow of races and cultures in the campaign. At any given time, not including *flavor A* doesn't mean that I am purposely exclusing them--it just means that whatever fruit flavor isn't currently historically or campaign relevant. I am just boggled why these people think that they need to go around and mind-fuck everyone because they are not *inclusive* enough by having every possible fruit flavor constantly present.
Am I making any sense, Jeff? LOL. Great stuff, my friend!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
You are making total sense.
(Then again, I was a squid for 6 years before college, so I grok where you are coming from.)
EDIT: (Oh, and ITT We Are Marines in 1775 Bitching About the Corps. (https://www.reddit.com/r/USMC/comments/9nzwc9/itt_we_are_marines_in_1775_bitching_about_the/) The NAVY delivers.)
Quote from: sureshot;1060213Just because I think we should have both does not mean that I want to push people out. I'm Ok if they choose a black actor for Superman. Though I know some will not yet I can respect that. I don't mind seeing a strong female lead as long as the men are not portrayed as idiots. I don't care the sexuality of an actor if he gives us a good performance. Nothing is wrong with me. I'm not the second coming of Motorskills. I just believe in both yet not to the point of excluding others especially if they have different view points.
I meant you in the general sense, not you specifically, Sureshot. I'd use your name if I was deliberate accusing you of anything. And I'd rather attack the argument. Again, I apologize, I was not speaking to you specifically.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1060228I meant you in the general sense, not you specifically, Sureshot. I'd use your name if I was deliberate accusing you of anything. And I'd rather attack the argument. Again, I apologize, I was not speaking to you specifically.
It's all good we agree more on the subject the we disagree so no worries.
Quote from: SHARK;1059975Greetings!
Hey Opaopajr! Interesting! You know, I'll admit that a portion of the mentally ill and those with a variety of mental disabilities--their antics and expressions can be very humorous. Sometimes, of course, some individuals are also quite dangerous. In general though, many of them can be frustrating to deal with, for a wide variety of reasons. I think some aspects of the streotypes, like with many such, can be humorous and in good fun.
The Gully Dwarves were just fucking stupid as all hell though.:)
Having said that, I have also done some work tutoring both adolescents and adults with mental and learning disabilities. Down's Syndrome, and so on. I have to say some of them are indeed a great blessing to us. Many are without guile, at all. They don't lie or deceive, and they truly accept YOU for being YOU. They could care less about your age, your race, what you look like, what you do, or how much you make. What is deeply meaningful to them, is that YOU are their friend. I think that kind of love and acceptance is a gift to us, the rest of humanity, and I think that capacity for love and friendship often demonstrated by mentally disabled/challenged people makes them very special. Joking aside, we should remember to respect them, cherish them, and value them as members of our community.
Your post reminded me of some of those good relationships I had, Opaopajr. Thank you, my friend.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I am glad it brought good memories. :)
Yes, some of them really do bring forth many of the virtues we aspire to. However, I have also met others with more sullen, savvy, and predatory personalities, too, often those who ended up leaving some of the more overcrowded state hospitals. Some even who were too much to handle for the private facility circles I traveled tangentially, even to the point of being regional police nuisances and manipulating others through their known rights.
(It was really sad when some had to give up on truly higher functioning challenged adults because of their manipulative & destructive behavior problems. You knew they learned (or honed) it from overcrowded state or county facilities, but also had enough awareness to truly do greater positive things than those who require 24/7 care. It's also why I don't underestimate them either; cunning and savvy comes in all forms of life, and there is no shame in being tricked by them. Life is wily, and exploits, regardless of aptitude... and you can't be everywhere all the time. ;) )
There is light and dark everywhere. Come join me in the abyss! :)
Quote from: sureshot;1060213I'm Ok if they choose a black actor for Superman.
The problem with that is I don't think Hollywood can do it well. If anything I think movies are less diverse today than they were 30 years ago as pretty much every character is a stereotype. Will the black superman still be from Kansas or will they write him into an urban ghetto upbringing because that's where all black characters come from? And God forbid they don't cast a 6ft 5inch tall bald black guy with muscles on muscles to play the part, because that's basically the go to "black guy" for Hollywood these days.
If they went with a black actor that was more towards the Christopher Reeves type who's character parents were down to earth farmers in rural Kansas, then yeah, I'd be totally onboard. But I think if they went that route they'd hear a ton of flack from the SJW crowd because the character didn't meet their expectations of "black".
Quote from: Dracones;1060298The problem with that is I don't think Hollywood can do it well. If anything I think movies are less diverse today than they were 30 years ago as pretty much every character is a stereotype. Will the black superman still be from Kansas or will they write him into an urban ghetto upbringing because that's where all black characters come from? And God forbid they don't cast a 6ft 5inch tall bald black guy with muscles on muscles to play the part, because that's basically the go to "black guy" for Hollywood these days.
I hope they do keep the Kansas origin story as I cannot see Superman being born from a urban ghetto. Not sure if your for or against the tall bald black guy with muscles. Yet I want the character to be. The last thing I want is Superman looking like Joe Average imo. Even in his secret identity the character looked muscular.
Quote from: Dracones;1060298If they went with a black actor that was more towards the Christopher Reeves type who's character parents were down to earth farmers in rural Kansas, then yeah, I'd be totally onboard. But I think if they went that route they'd hear a ton of flack from the SJW crowd because the character didn't meet their expectations of "black".
Well if DC and by extension Sony want their movie to make money they will ignore the SJW crowd as usually they complain the loudest while not actually supporting the cause their complaining for imo. Now if it's elsewhere style movie than they can try and pull off a Superman born in a urban ghetto. Otherwise expect the comic fans to rip them a new one and be much more vocal than the SJWs imo.
I just want to say I see the Christopher Reeves' "Superman" performance an understated, and possibly overlooked, masterpiece of acting. These genre films often start at an Oscar/critic deficit, which only highlights how much the piece had to climb to get institutional recognition.
Attempting to change the ethnicity (and therefore story) of a character in the hopes that the brand recognition built up over decades (in Superman's case, almost a century now) will carry over to the new stand-in always fails spectacularly.
1. Go directly against audience expectations (in Supes' case, they expect to see a white guy with a strong jaw, blue-black hair, and a red cape)
2. Accuse your audience of being racists for resenting having their expectations subverted and ignoring your movie.
3. Don't profit.
You know what sells? An interesting black superhero. The Blade movies did pretty well. Black Panther was a smash success. The audiences liked Storm in X-Men. They liked Jim Rhodes in Iron Man. It's not racism's fault DC has no mojo.
Quote from: Melan;1059752(https://78.media.tumblr.com/4a7bd4425d6c8d107e08a3b4d5d98bd7/tumblr_pfm0103g5i1xcdgeso4_1280.png)
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/3b2057aaae03f38617c824c972ff8a97/tumblr_pfm0103g5i1xcdgeso2_1280.png)
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/6e41be846ba5f4a5fd442a4e145111cc/tumblr_pfm0103g5i1xcdgeso1_1280.png)
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/2622f3939b12820701ddb0a38546c236/tumblr_pfm0103g5i1xcdgeso3_1280.png)
These are only the first few comments from a thread that's now at 625 posts.
The most ridiculously thing there is the SJW NPC who wrote it proudly declaring that they have a "general aversion to humanocentrism". They don't even hide how much they despise humanity anymore.
I try to be inclusive at my table, so I refer to them as "rain forest orcs" and "arid plain orcs."
Quote from: Motorskills;1060166The RPG hobby is thriving and fun, doesn't mean there aren't still things that can be improved.
Translation: "No matter what you do, or how fun your hobby is, SJWs will find a reason to attack and attempt to destroy it." Note that the same person expressing this sentiment moments before expressed the need for "diversity of authors" -- you may have written an excellent game, but if your skin isn't the right color then we can't play it.
And all the while completely blind to the utterly obvious irony of calling people who
don't select their games based on the skin tone or genitals of the author the "racists".
Quote from: Zalman;1060829Translation: "No matter what you do, or how fun your hobby is, SJWs will find a reason to attack and attempt to destroy it." Note that the same person expressing this sentiment moments before expressed the need for "diversity of authors" -- you may have written an excellent game, but if your skin isn't the right color then we can't play it.
And all the while completely blind to the utterly obvious irony of calling people who don't select their games based on the skin tone or genitals of the author the "racists".
I personally can't get excited about Human differences. An Elf is way more different than any two humans.
Most SJW media assumes I care if some character is gay or trans, and I am just like "but do they breathe fire or cast magic?". It spends way too much time assuming I care about all the little bullshit and assumes I find it compelling.
Likewise though, I don't care what the author looks like or what they think. Good authors tend to be entirely divorced from what they make. Just look at Orson Scott Card, many of his stories act as counterpoints to his beliefs. He focused on making a story that people would enjoy, not pushing his agenda.
Quote from: Zalman;1060829Translation: "No matter what you do, or how fun your hobby is, SJWs will find a reason to attack and attempt to destroy it."
Translation: no matter how positive, dynamic, innovative, and expansive the RPG hobby is, the usual whiners will always find some reason to decide that their hobby is under threat
Quote from: Motorskills;1060911Translation: no matter how positive, dynamic, innovative, and expansive the RPG hobby is, the usual whiners will always find some reason to decide that their hobby is under threat
You need to learn reading comprehension. We've always been inclusive. We allow people like you in.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1060917You need to learn reading comprehension. We've always been inclusive. We allow people like you in.
Motorskills and regressives like him are all about the Narrative. Before rpgs companies and regressives suddenly became woke no player groups were ever inclusive, diverse ever in the history of gaming. To use his own words the hobby was positive, dynamic, innovative, and expansive before. To say that would be going against the narrative. Everytime I see a regressive gamer talk like that I wonder if they either just woke up in a time capsule or in suspended animation.
It's one thing if the person is aged 15-20 years old they don't have the benefit of experiencing the hobby like a 45 year like myself. If your my age and trying to make it out to be that we were never diverse and inclusive well he and those like him are being disingenuous. The reverse would apply to me you and others they want nothing to do with us because we don't support and push the regressive gamer agenda.
WotC should probably just rename Dungeons & Dragons. The name carries too much baggage from the Wicked Before Times of the world before 2012.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1060917You need to learn reading comprehension. We've always been inclusive. We allow people like you in.
You here that Motorskills. Don't you feel privileged that the righteous allow you to speak?
Quote from: TJS;1061098You here that Motorskills. Don't you feel privileged that the righteous allow you to speak?
You and Motorskills and everyone else can thank Pundit for believing in Free Speech.
Quote from: jeff37923;1061111You and Motorskills and everyone else can thank Pundit for believing in Free Speech.
Truly he's a hero of our times.
Quote from: TJS;1061112Truly he's a hero of our times.
You won't find one like him on TBP.
It's anusing how we and this place is such a terrible people/place. Yet if they went to TBP the Regressives would not only ban them it would be on any reason or excuse.
Quote from: sureshot;1061116It's anusing how we and this place is such a terrible people/place. Yet if they went to TBP the Regressives would not only ban them it would be on any reason or excuse.
Who is "We"? Who is "them"? Why is it that one must either a "we" or a "them"?
And if, as Jeff says, it is Pundit who decides this sites moderation who exactly is this "we" that Brady presumes to speak for that is so very generous?
Quote from: TJS;1061098You here that Motorskills. Don't you feel privileged that the righteous allow you to speak?
TJS, you spelled hear wrong. It isn't H-E-R-E.
Quote from: jeff37923;1061120TJS, you spelled hear wrong. It isn't H-E-R-E.
Don't worry. I'll proofread it thoroughly before publication.
Quote from: TJS;1061098You here that Motorskills. Don't you feel privileged that the righteous allow you to speak?
Allow? No, we WELCOME. You are WELCOME to speak your mind. We may not agree, but we will not censor you.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1061128Allow? No, we WELCOME. You are WELCOME to speak your mind. We may not agree, but we will not censor you.
Ok tell the WE I am grateful. I won't censor them either. (Nor will I steal their lunch money).
Quote from: TJS;1061119Who is "We"?
The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy that dominates therpgsite, of course! With the Pundit's tyrannical free speech policy, poor lefties have only a few tiny corners of the RPG-oriented Internet where they can speak their minds freely, free from the fear of being disagreed with.
Quote from: TJS;1061119Who is "We"? Who is "them"? Why is it that one must either a "we" or a "them"?
And if, as Jeff says, it is Pundit who decides this sites moderation who exactly is this "we" that Brady presumes to speak for that is so very generous?
I see your less interested in actual discussion and here to be a disingenuous troll.
I am not a fan of every way Pundit mods his site. Yet I will not be banned just because I believe in a person right to a trial and to be proven guilty when accused of rape. Go to TPB and try that bullshit see how fast your threadbanned or permanently banned. The current narrative in rpgs is that the hobby was never inclusive or diverse in the hobby. Being social pariahs we never turned anyone away. Exceptions happened because some player and dMs are assholes. Yet we never turned anyone away from tables. Go over to TPB and argue .But you won't will you because trolls are gonna troll. No matter what we say we are wrong because your nothing but a shit disturber with nothing good to add to the conversation. So at least on this topic I'm don with you
Ladies, Gentlemen and Zs (or whatever you feel your gender is today )
Just ignore TJS he is trolling to troll and get a reaction. Don't waste your time.
Quote from: S'mon;1061137The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy that dominates therpgsite, of course! With the Pundit's tyrannical free speech policy, poor lefties have only a few tiny corners of the RPG-oriented Internet where they can speak their minds freely, free from the fear of being disagreed with.
LOL
That is why anyone who says this is the worst rpg forum on the internet is just being fucking clueless disingenuous troll on purpose. Notice how those same people never talk bad about rpg.net for fear of being banned or that it goes against the narrative of this being the worst place around.
TBP is just a cyberbullying site, where the mods and anyone they can abuse into line are the cyberbullies.
And Mearls browses there...
TBP still had good discussions on D&D rules and whatnot until fairly recently. It seems like a lot of good posters have just cycled out, or maybe been banned. I've never posted there in any thread not immediately relevant to D&D.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1061160TBP still had good discussions on D&D rules and whatnot until fairly recently. It seems like a lot of good posters have just cycled out, or maybe been banned. I've never posted there in any thread not immediately relevant to D&D.
I think that is one of the reasons why we keep talking about TBP. A lot of us remember when it was a worthwhile place to discuss gaming.
20 years ago
Quote from: S'mon;1061137The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy that dominates therpgsite, of course! With the Pundit's tyrannical free speech policy, poor lefties have only a few tiny corners of the RPG-oriented Internet where they can speak their minds freely, free from the fear of being disagreed with.
Priceless!
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1061172Priceless!
You're too kind. :D
Quote from: jeff37923;1061165I think that is one of the reasons why we keep talking about TBP. A lot of us remember when it was a worthwhile place to discuss gaming.
Funny how forums go that way.
Quote from: jeff37923;1061113You won't find one like him on TBP.
...and if you did, they'd be permabanned as soon as the mods caught up with them.
Quote from: sureshot;1059889To be fair Gully Dwarves deserve to be called out imo. Such a strange and god awful thing to put in any campaign world followed by Kender. I don't think they realize it or even care how insulting it is to compare Gully Dwarves to those who are intellectually handicapped. While I have not met many individuals who are I have seen a few and none of them at least the ones I associated with act in any way shape or form as a Gully Dwarf. Shocking they assume those who are intellectually handicapped to be like the stereotype that they are unfortunately too often portrayed.
I wonder how those in that D&D thread function in normal society without the safe space, echo chamber of the the Rpg.net forums.
Gully Dwarves are like the Tinker Gnomes and Kender. Cursed with stupid. Just different brands of stupid. And Gully Dwarves come across more like some sort of poke at inbred hillbilly steryotypes. And yet they still were loyal and even brave at tomes. In contrast to other depictions. People seem to overlook these things quite often. And some writers have written them as essentially stereotypes of themselves which totally misses the point. Same with the Tinker Gnomes. They are literally cursed to be obsessed with complexity which makes them astoundingly stupid in a different manner.
Quote from: Omega;1061328Same with the Tinker Gnomes. They are literally cursed to be obsessed with complexity which makes them astoundingly stupid in a different manner.
My first contact with Tinker Gnomes was from Taladas. There the ruling class of Tinker Gnomes designed shit that actually worked. Their workers were the ones that couldn't design things right (but could follow the plans give to them by the ruling class, IIRC), and these were apparently the only Tinker Gnomes on the more common side of Krynn (Ansalom?).
Years later, I saw the same kind of thing repeated with the Mountain Folk of Exalted.
Christ I hated Tinker Gnomes. Of course, I hate all Gnomes.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1061743Christ I hated Tinker Gnomes. Of course, I hate all Gnomes.
I can't stand halflings/hobbits either.
Quote from: Kiero;1061758I can't stand halflings/hobbits either.
They're nowhere near as bad as Gnomes. Nothing is.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1062210They're nowhere near as bad as Gnomes. Nothing is.
Earthdawn's windlings can give gnomes a run for their money, IMO, windlings are worse.
The D&D 5e Tabaxi are pretty obnoxious in the way they're described too.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1061743Christ I hated Tinker Gnomes. Of course, I hate all Gnomes.
As I've noted before. In BX gnomes were a monster race and not necessarily a friendly one.
Back on topic.
So has the outrage died down over there any? I assume that the usual loons moved on to fresher targets after a while.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1062210They're nowhere near as bad as Gnomes. Nothing is.
Just don't lump regular gnomes in with Dragonlance and Spelljammers Tinker Gnomes. Ones a legitimate race like any other. The other is a joke that got old really really fast. Like 90% of the running gags in Dragonlance.
In D&D at least they cleave closer to leprechauns in some ways as was discussed in a thread here long long ago. That and drawing from other faerie folklore.
I think the main problem with gnomes is that they are really just "dwarves who can cast magic" and "dwarves under hills rather than mountains. And now you have hill dwarves soooo...
I usually just merge them with dwarves as another sub-race and move on.
Though I liked one approach way back that presented gnomes as... half-dwarves. The product of dwarven/elven unions. They should have used that for Thunder Rift!
Quote from: Kiero;1061758I can't stand halflings/hobbits either.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1062210They're nowhere near as bad as Gnomes. Nothing is.
I'm with Kiero in this one. Halflings are worse. Gnomes are mostly forgettable, with Tinker Gnomes or Gully Dwarves relegated to a small faction who actually read books back in the day. Halflings, however, have absorbed the Kender hate, or are fat, gentrified, cowardly farmers that would die on the spot rather than be adventurers.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1061743Christ I hated Tinker Gnomes. Of course, I hate all Gnomes.
I like David the Gnome on Nickelodeon back in the day, but I never wanted to play one in a D&D game. The ones in D&D settings are too tall, anyway; I have trouble thinking of them as gnomes in any meaningful sense because of this.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1062235Earthdawn's windlings can give gnomes a run for their money, IMO, windlings are worse.
I never saw anything particularly off about Windlings. They're said to be attracted to novelty and driven by curiosity, but that's about it, and it's not universal. So you're not really limited on personality types any more so than with any other race, so if there's a problem I'd say it's the player's fault tbh. And they've relaxed the racial restrictions on disciplines in later editions, so if you felt too limited there then . . . well, you could have ignored them anyway, or allowed an exception if there was a good justification; but if you like sticking to canon as much as possible you have more versatility there now, too.
Quote from: Omega;1062240As I've noted before. In BX gnomes were a monster race and not necessarily a friendly one.
Back on topic.
So has the outrage died down over there any? I assume that the usual loons moved on to fresher targets after a while.
Indeed. Today's target is Trump voters. Supporting Trump is now a bannable offense.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1062210They're nowhere near as bad as Gnomes. Nothing is.
Greetings!
Pundit! Tell me why you hate Gnomes so much!
I'm not fond of them, either. To me, if the campaign has Halflings, Dwarves, and Elves--I don't really see where Gnomes fit in. I've had a few friends that made a fairly good argument for them--essentially taking them out of the countryside, so they are nowhere near Halflings or Elves, and taking them away from hills or mountains where the Dwarves are. Instead, put them into large, crazy Gnome cities with lots of magic and technology. I can now see why World of Warcraft did *exactly* that with Gnomes, because they seem to suck hard doing anything else. I concede that is a decent and fairly interesting frame for the Gnomes--but that frame is about it, though, honestly.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: HappyDaze;1062235Earthdawn's windlings can give gnomes a run for their money, IMO, windlings are worse.
The D&D 5e Tabaxi are pretty obnoxious in the way they're described too.
Greetings!
Hi there, Happydaze! Can you expand upon your hate for the Tabaxi? Part of me has always been "Ok, cool" with Cat Humanoids--but I admit, the Tabaxi--as WOTC presents them--ehh, you know? They seem...I can't put my finger on it exactly. Upon reading them, my first reaction was "Geesus, another stupid race for snowflakes!" LOL.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1062262I never saw anything particularly off about Windlings. They're said to be attracted to novelty and driven by curiosity, but that's about it, and it's not universal. So you're not really limited on personality types any more so than with any other race, so if there's a problem I'd say it's the player's fault tbh. And they've relaxed the racial restrictions on disciplines in later editions, so if you felt too limited there then . . . well, you could have ignored them anyway, or allowed an exception if there was a good justification; but if you like sticking to canon as much as possible you have more versatility there now, too.
Come on... The racial quote for windlings was WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!
Quote from: Omega;1062240Back on topic.
So has the outrage died down over there any? I assume that the usual loons moved on to fresher targets after a while.
Fresher target:
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Quote from: SHARK;1062267Hi there, Happydaze! Can you expand upon your hate for the Tabaxi? Part of me has always been "Ok, cool" with Cat Humanoids--but I admit, the Tabaxi--as WOTC presents them--ehh, you know? They seem...I can't put my finger on it exactly. Upon reading them, my first reaction was "Geesus, another stupid race for snowflakes!" LOL.
Not Happydaze, but I have an opinion. I actually liked Tabaxi as first presented in the Fiend Folio: a Chaotic monster race that used primitive weapons, or even teeth and claws, no armor, and illustrated as something somewhat alien, not just a human in a fur suit. And of course, later editions went full on fur-suit.
Good:
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Bad:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2989[/ATTACH]
So, I suppose the only think left to do is stat Trump in ACKS right? Bonus points for making him a Gnome, Halfling, Kender, or Windling.
Seeing how much worse and worse rpg.net is becoming yet this place will be called out as being the worst and most repressive forum online. With the usual suspects remsining silent on the matter.
I actually feel the opposite I found and still find the Fiend Folio version goofy looking and prefer the one with the more monkish looking Tabaxi. To each his own I guess.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1062269Come on... The racial quote for windlings was WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!
I always took that as tongue in cheek. Kind of like those dumb "impressions of other groups and supernatural creatures" boxes in World of Darkness games, but not really being serious about it.
Quote from: sureshot;1062281I actually feel the opposite I found and still find the Fiend Folio version goofy looking and prefer the one with the more monkish looking Tabaxi. To each his own I guess.
Yeah, it's a pretty neat picture. I grew up with Ninja Turtles and other similar media, so I appreciate the occasional anthropomorphic animal race when they're not being drawn to titillate and fulfill someone's fetish. It communicates power and agility and looks neat without being all sexualized(I'm sure there are some people who will still go there, but it's obviously not the artist's intent), so I have no complaints.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1062269Come on... The racial quote for windlings was WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!
That doesn't mean they're destructive. I always took it as someone who enjoys his/her life.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1062289That doesn't mean they're destructive. I always took it as someone who enjoys his/her life.
That, too. Plus there are the first-person perspective writings from Windling POVs(Earthdawn loves FP POV writing) and, y'know, the
entire rest of their race's write-up to go on to show you that there was a lot more to Windlings than just "wheeeeee." It's like "oh, no, a race known for having(again as a general rule, not an absolute) a positive outlook on life; kill it with fire!"
Quote from: jeff37923;1061165I think that is one of the reasons why we keep talking about TBP. A lot of us remember when it was a worthwhile place to discuss gaming.
Haven't read it regularly but it used to be far and away the best place for creative brainstorming. Stuff like "I need a solar diety for my setting who isn't boring" and rpg.net would give you way way better answers than anywhere else on the internet.
But was always pretty crazy, even in the old days.
Quote from: SHARK;1062267Greetings!
Hi there, Happydaze! Can you expand upon your hate for the Tabaxi? Part of me has always been "Ok, cool" with Cat Humanoids--but I admit, the Tabaxi--as WOTC presents them--ehh, you know? They seem...I can't put my finger on it exactly. Upon reading them, my first reaction was "Geesus, another stupid race for snowflakes!" LOL.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I'm not a fan of catpeople to begin with, but when the whole write-up seems to want to emphasize cat-like personality traits (compulsive curiosity & fleeting obsessions) and the whole "wanderers from a strange, faraway land" makes them very snowflake-y. Of course, mechanically they are very attractive for Bards, Rogues, Sorcerers, Warlocks, and Dex-based Paladins (yeah, those), so I've seen lots of players lured by the mechanics that then play them akin to kender (heavy on the compulsive curiosity & fleeting obsessions).
I have a player playing a Tabaxi Rogue IMC; she's a very good player and it's a fun PC, albeit currently deceased at the hands of some steel guardians (super-iron-golems) while trying to reach a mysterious throne - will see on Saturday if the others can recover her body. Curiosity killed the cat!
Quote from: Omega;1062240As I've noted before. In BX gnomes were a monster race and not necessarily a friendly one.
Back on topic.
So has the outrage died down over there any? I assume that the usual loons moved on to fresher targets after a while.
Nope, but they did codify in the new rules and guideline that ACKS is a banned topic because of legal threats made against RPGnet. Post three here says: (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?835847-RPG-net-Rules-amp-Guidelines-(Revised-10-28-2018))
Quote-- The rpg game ACKS and the game company Autarch, as the designer of the game and owner of the company, Alexander Macris, has threatened the board with legal actions multiple times. (7/6/2018 (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?830945-ACKS-amp-Autarch-Added-to-Forbidden-Topics-List) for explanation from ShannonA)
Quote from: rgalex;1062334Nope, but they did codify in the new rules and guideline that ACKS is a banned topic because of legal threats made against RPGnet. Post three here says: (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?835847-RPG-net-Rules-amp-Guidelines-(Revised-10-28-2018))
"Legal Action" aka pointing out that calling him and his product a Nazi over and over again is a form a defamation and not protected by being a "review".
Quote from: SHARK;1062266Greetings!
Pundit! Tell me why you hate Gnomes so much!
I'm not fond of them, either. To me, if the campaign has Halflings, Dwarves, and Elves--I don't really see where Gnomes fit in. I've had a few friends that made a fairly good argument for them--essentially taking them out of the countryside, so they are nowhere near Halflings or Elves, and taking them away from hills or mountains where the Dwarves are. Instead, put them into large, crazy Gnome cities with lots of magic and technology. I can now see why World of Warcraft did *exactly* that with Gnomes, because they seem to suck hard doing anything else. I concede that is a decent and fairly interesting frame for the Gnomes--but that frame is about it, though, honestly.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Gnomes go back at least as far as 1e, no? Sure I remember the Illusionist to have was of Gnomish stock?
Not saying I really like them as a playable class, or even as a race really, I find that they eat into the space that makes other races (Elves and Halflings) particularly special. I don't see their culture played out much either, probably because it isn't really understood very well.
That said, my 5e DDAL deep gnome Diviner is a blast to play, the deep gnomes do have, well, the "deep" stuff going for them, adds colour to the table.
In 5e I kinda like Forest Gnomes, both mechanically and because I can see some story possibilities with them (I do wish they were Fey in 5e though), but I think Rock Gnomes fall into a non-identity hole as others have mentioned.
Quote from: Motorskills;1062351Not saying I really like them as a playable class, or even as a race really, I find that they eat into the space that makes other races (Elves and Halflings) particularly special. I don't see their culture played out much either, probably because it isn't really understood very well.
My world doesn't have Halflings so that helps, but the main way I kept Gnomes distinct is that they are literally the runaway dreams of children who live in the woods like the Lost Boys of Peter Pan. They have no conception of sex (even kissing is gross) and are also truly immortal (if killed they just reappear out of the mists somewhere in the Realm of Dreams minus their memories/levels, but ready to start a new adventure). They are often horrified when they learn that other beings only have ONE life... which often causes the more heroic of them to take great risks to protect others from harm since all the gnome will lose is a few memories... not their one and only life.
I did not ever threaten RPG.net with legal action. Here's what I actually wrote:
QuoteOn 7/5/18 1:07 PM, Alexander Macris wrote:
Shannon:
One of your official Moderators has once again libeled me.
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?828681-Recommend-me-an-OSR-game/page6
This is false. I do not have "strong Neo-Nazi ties". I don't have any affiliation with Nazism at all. I do not believe what Nazis believe. I happily work with talented people regardless of religion or ethnicity. The idea that I am a Nazi can only perpetuated through malicious misconstrual of the facts. My current writing partner is a black Hispanic veteran married to an Asian immigrant. My previous co-author was an Israeli designer recovering from post-traumatic stress disorder. Another Autarch writer is a gay Broadway actor.
All of these facts are publicly available but I want to make sure you are personally aware of them because your staff is openly lying about me and ACKS to gamers with direct intent to cause me and my company harm. And it is not just causing me reputational harm, it is causing reputational harm to my co-writers, who do not appreciate being accuse of being associated with Nazis.
The last time I brought this up you told me to handle it through moderation. But because your staff banned me for "Rule Zero" despite being a member in good standing without even a single warning ever, I cannot. You need to handle it.
This is straightforward libel. I trust that you will remove the libel and inform your staff to halt its ongoing campaign of defamation against me and my company.
Alexander Macris
He then responded:
QuoteOn Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 5:32 PM, Shannon Appelcline wrote:
Alex,
I have passed this on to other staff at RPGnet. My understanding is that for the moment at least, the message has been removed. As I've told you previously, I do not make this sort of decision. admin.rpgnet@gmail.com remains the best conduit for moderation issues, and it remains available due you despite the decision to ban you from the site.
More generally, if you have a problem with something posted by someone at RPGnet, you need to talk with them, not us, in whatever personal or legal manner is required. Our volunteers are not employees and not under the direct authority of the company. They are third-party users who have been given the ability to moderate postings. Their decision to undertake good-Samaritan moderation of the forums does not change the fact that we are an interactive computer service, not an information content provider.
Shannon
I responded:
QuoteShannon and Christopher:
Thank you for removing the post. I appreciate the courteous and swift response. I will certainly reach out to admin.rpgnet if further issues arise.
Have a good weekend.
Kind regards,
Alexander
After this email they banned discussion of me.
I believe that I was about as even-tempered as it is possible to be when someone is actively seeking to ruin you. If they felt threatened I would imagine it was because they knew they were, in fact, at risk of liability for defaming me.
Well banning ACKS for them was a taste, they've now banned any support of Trump or his administration: New Ban: Do Not Post In Support of Trump or his Administration (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?835849-New-Ban-Do-Not-Post-In-Support-of-Trump-or-his-Administration)
It's been amusing to watch this play on other forums. Also, don't dare criticize TBP on reddit rpg, the post will just be deleted: https://snew.github.io/r/rpg (https://snew.github.io/r/rpg)
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Laughingly I've also noted ACKS gets "he's a white nationalist" brigade votes on reddit was well, with people asking for examples why and no answers(just downvotes).
I expect the bad mod behavior on TBP to just get worse and more abusive as time goes on. They're clearly operating outside of reality with no one around with differing opinions.
Quote from: Dracones;1062396Well banning ACKS for them was a taste, they've now banned any support of Trump or his administration: New Ban: Do Not Post In Support of Trump or his Administration (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?835849-New-Ban-Do-Not-Post-In-Support-of-Trump-or-his-Administration)
It's been amusing to watch this play on other forums. Also, don't dare criticize TBP on reddit rpg, the post will just be deleted: https://snew.github.io/r/rpg (https://snew.github.io/r/rpg)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2993[/ATTACH]
Laughingly I've also noted ACKS gets "he's a white nationalist" brigade votes on reddit was well, with people asking for examples why and no answers(just downvotes).
I expect the bad mod behavior on TBP to just get worse and more abusive as time goes on. They're clearly operating outside of reality with no one around with differing opinions.
That's an incredible amount of authoritarianism for an RPG message board.
Quote from: Mistwell;1062403That's an incredible amount of authoritarianism for an RPG message board.
I'm still waiting for them to demand the Rite of Initiation for all new and returning posters:
Burn a picture or effigy of Trump
Trample a crucifix
Make a contribution to Planned Parenthood
Quote from: Mistwell;1062403That's an incredible amount of authoritarianism for an RPG message board.
I bet Dumbledore is super proud of them.
Quote from: Dracones;1062396Well banning ACKS for them was a taste, they've now banned any support of Trump or his administration: New Ban: Do Not Post In Support of Trump or his Administration (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?835849-New-Ban-Do-Not-Post-In-Support-of-Trump-or-his-Administration)
I looked at the thread. It starts off well enough, and if you weren't already familiar with the moderation there you might just think "ok, private property, kinda dumb but fair enough." But then you get into the list of citations . . . and I'm not going to go through all of them, but when I got to 5 - he mocks the disabled - I just
knew what incident it was going to link to. It was that time he was mocking the intelligence of a reporter
before he had any idea that the guy was disabled. I'm not going to say he did nothing wrong - the mockery was still crass - but he absolutely did
not mock the guy's disability.
I'm no Trump supporter. There is plenty to criticize about him, but I don't feel the need to
blatantly lie about him. That goes both ways - I got onto my own mom's case about some of the unsubstantiated crap she posted about Hillary during the election season even though I don't like Hillary either. Anyway, back to my point . . . if they're willing to post something like that, something that's been so thoroughly debunked that they should be embarrassed of themselves for even linking to it, then what else on that list are they lying about and/or taking out of context?
I just don't trust them at all. I don't trust them to be fair. I don't trust them to be rational. I don't trust them to be honest.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1062421I looked at the thread. It starts off well enough, and if you weren't already familiar with the moderation there you might just think "ok, private property, kinda dumb but fair enough." But then you get into the list of citations . . . and I'm not going to go through all of them, but when I got to 5 - he mocks the disabled - I just knew what incident it was going to link to. It was that time he was mocking the intelligence of a reporter before he had any idea that the guy was disabled. I'm not going to say he did nothing wrong - the mockery was still crass - but he absolutely did not mock the guy's disability.
I'm no Trump supporter. There is plenty to criticize about him, but I don't feel the need to blatantly lie about him. That goes both ways - I got onto my own mom's case about some of the unsubstantiated crap she posted about Hillary during the election season even though I don't like Hillary either. Anyway, back to my point . . . if they're willing to post something like that, something that's been so thoroughly debunked that they should be embarrassed of themselves for even linking to it, then what else on that list are they lying about and/or taking out of context?
I just don't trust them at all. I don't trust them to be fair. I don't trust them to be rational. I don't trust them to be honest.
Just so.
Don't see this as any real change. Without this rule any Trump supporter at rpg.net would be inevitably be permabanned in short order now they just do that a bit more efficiently and are more honest about that.
TBP is a haven for a particular kind of cyberbullying. Don't go there.
It's not a place to discuss RPGs. It's a place to berate or be berated by others. You are either hating or being hated.
There is one minor benefit to this rules change. Now people who say things like, "I bet you're a Trump supporter" can also be banned for attempting to bait someone into breaking the rules. And that's not speculation - they mention that.
Quote from: Mistwell;1062450There is one minor benefit to this rules change. Now people who say things like, "I bet you're a Trump supporter" can also be banned for attempting to bait someone into breaking the rules. And that's not speculation - they mention that.
Having such rules has never stopped them from making an approved group-think exception before.
Their stupid (yet unsurprising) move made The Quartering!
Quote from: Mistwell;1062450There is one minor benefit to this rules change. Now people who say things like, "I bet you're a Trump supporter" can also be banned for attempting to bait someone into breaking the rules. And that's not speculation - they mention that.
And they will likely ignore the shit out of that fact whenever it's convenient.
They've done it numerous times before, and history always repeats.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1062421I looked at the thread. It starts off well enough, and if you weren't already familiar with the moderation there you might just think "ok, private property, kinda dumb but fair enough." But then you get into the list of citations . . . and I'm not going to go through all of them, but when I got to 5 - he mocks the disabled - I just knew what incident it was going to link to. It was that time he was mocking the intelligence of a reporter before he had any idea that the guy was disabled. I'm not going to say he did nothing wrong - the mockery was still crass - but he absolutely did not mock the guy's disability.
By pointing out something daft that he had said, correct? Some use of Shakespearean wit to put down someone whose intellectual rigour had been found wanting?
What gets me is how those in favor of the new rules have learned nothing. When anyone mentions that this might make people vote more in favor of Trump they outright dismiss the possibility of it even being remotely possible. Since targeting and making every Trump supporter an enemy will somehow mean that those voters will vote for a Democrat candidate. The left has as usual learnt nothing, keeps repeating the same mistakes. Come 2020 we will see yet another bunch of people post videos of themselves having meltdowns.
Quote from: sureshot;1062478What gets me is how those in favor of the new rules have learned nothing. When anyone mentions that this might make people vote more in favor of Trump they outright dismiss the possibility of it even being remotely possible. Since targeting and making every Trump supporter an enemy will somehow mean that those voters will vote for a Democrat candidate. The left has as usual learnt nothing, keeps repeating the same mistakes. Come 2020 we will see yet another bunch of people post videos of themselves having meltdowns.
I don't think they are trying to alter the vote here; what they are trying to do is thicken the walls of their bubble and make them opaque.
It is just the online antifa.
Quote from: Imaginos;1062490It is just the online antifa.
That might be the case if they were to go out attacking other sites and their members in places they down own/control. If all Antifa did was bar their own doors so only their own type could mingle in their homes & businesses, they wouldn't be the problem they are today.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1062498That might be the case if they were to go out attacking other sites and their members in places they down own/control. If all Antifa did was bar their own doors so only their own type could mingle in their homes & businesses, they wouldn't be the problem they are today.
That's a good point.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1062498That might be the case if they were to go out attacking other sites and their members in places they down own/control. If all Antifa did was bar their own doors so only their own type could mingle in their homes & businesses, they wouldn't be the problem they are today.
What do you call the harassment campaigns then?
Quote from: Rhedyn;1062513What do you call the harassment campaigns then?
Where is it happening? Do I have to go onto their site (into their home) to see it? If so, then it means nothing to me because I'm not going there. It would be different for me if I was a writer/producer of games, but I'm not.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1062514Where is it happening? Do I have to go onto their site (into their home) to see it? If so, then it means nothing to me because I'm not going there. It would be different for me if I was a writer/producer of games, but I'm not.
They do organize phonecalls/writing/emailing publishers when they hate something a lot.
So yeah, you have to go there to see it unless you are the one being targeting or one of the publishers/thing that could hurt what they want hurt.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1062498That might be the case if they were to go out attacking other sites and their members in places they down own/control. If all Antifa did was bar their own doors so only their own type could mingle in their homes & businesses, they wouldn't be the problem they are today.
Agree more Flat earthers.
La la la la, I'm not listening.
Quote from: Mistwell;1062403That's an incredible amount of authoritarianism for an RPG message board.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1062479I don't think they are trying to alter the vote here; what they are trying to do is thicken the walls of their bubble and make them opaque.
It's classic cult dynamics. The hardcores go too far and moderates leave. Purity tests follow to root out any who aren't yet true believers. As more moderates are driven out, soon only the crazies are left. They get more and more zealous in their dogma. Eventually you wind up with a small number of truly fucked up cultists who have lost all touch with reality.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1062421I looked at the thread. It starts off well enough, and if you weren't already familiar with the moderation there you might just think "ok, private property, kinda dumb but fair enough." But then you get into the list of citations . . . and I'm not going to go through all of them, but when I got to 5 - he mocks the disabled - I just knew what incident it was going to link to. It was that time he was mocking the intelligence of a reporter before he had any idea that the guy was disabled. I'm not going to say he did nothing wrong - the mockery was still crass - but he absolutely did not mock the guy's disability.
I'm no Trump supporter. There is plenty to criticize about him, but I don't feel the need to blatantly lie about him. That goes both ways - I got onto my own mom's case about some of the unsubstantiated crap she posted about Hillary during the election season even though I don't like Hillary either. Anyway, back to my point . . . if they're willing to post something like that, something that's been so thoroughly debunked that they should be embarrassed of themselves for even linking to it, then what else on that list are they lying about and/or taking out of context?
I just don't trust them at all. I don't trust them to be fair. I don't trust them to be rational. I don't trust them to be honest.
Oh it gets much better (worse?). There are the predictable chorus of "I'm so happy the mods make me feel warm and cuddly and safe", but every so often you have a poster who throws in a supposed Trump quote that in no way whatsoever is something the man has actually said. Shit like, "you can't have reasonable discourse with someone who supports a president who tells his base that they should 'go out and rape transgender people to death'". Like, if you actually believe he or anyone else said that (Cameron Diaz once attributed something similar to G.W. Bush on actual fucking video) then you need to seriously be institutionalized. Pointing that out, of course, is grounds for instant-banning.
Add to that the kinds of test where the only way to prove you believe the right things is to hate the wrong people as much as I hate the wrong people.
You would think that 1984 had never been written. Wrongthinkers are banned. People who deviate from the current set of beliefs are evil. I like to wind people up by reminding them that globalist used to be the bad guys for people on the left (...we have always been at war with eastasia).
I also believe that fascists desperately need to be beaten up and thrown into the canal (fine British tradition) but only when they start doing things, people can say and think anything they please. (Subject to pass and such).
Quote from: Mistwell;1062450There is one minor benefit to this rules change. Now people who say things like, "I bet you're a Trump supporter" can also be banned for attempting to bait someone into breaking the rules. And that's not speculation - they mention that.
Since when? TBP has turned a blind eye before to attacking the latest designated enemy, BGG occasionally does it as well. Just substantially less frequently.
Quote from: Omega;1063017Since when? TBP has turned a blind eye before to attacking the latest designated enemy, BGG occasionally does it as well. Just substantially less frequently.
Seconded the mods are about impartial and subtle as a brick thrown to one forehead. If they don't like a post board rules or no they can and will ban a person. While also tosding in one last insult at the poster. They just put that in to cover their collective behinds.
Quote from: SHARK;1062266Greetings!
Pundit! Tell me why you hate Gnomes so much!
Gnomes secretly plot the destruction of all humanity.
I exposed this truth several years ago.
Sorry for bringing back an old thread but Hobbs has reposted the Macris episode. It will be interesting to see the reaction. It is obvious through the interview and his comments in the past that Hobbs loves ACKS, I'm glad he reposted it.
http://hobbsnfriends.com/2019/08/05/34-alexander-macris/?fbclid=IwAR3TklGCFid7HevLxw6802py8djCzqZoPx0s6SxJIeuqPrgcHDGohGQ5mQc (http://hobbsnfriends.com/2019/08/05/34-alexander-macris/?fbclid=IwAR3TklGCFid7HevLxw6802py8djCzqZoPx0s6SxJIeuqPrgcHDGohGQ5mQc)
I'm glad to hear he changed his mind. I downloaded the mp3 this time for the sake of posterity, and left a comment on that link thanking him for the change of mind he had. Hopefully he won't get too much backlash from the SJWs for not following their 1984 mindset.
Quote from: sharps54;1098543Sorry for bringing back an old thread but Hobbs has reposted the Macris episode. It will be interesting to see the reaction. It is obvious through the interview and his comments in the past that Hobbs loves ACKS, I'm glad he reposted it.
http://hobbsnfriends.com/2019/08/05/34-alexander-macris/?fbclid=IwAR3TklGCFid7HevLxw6802py8djCzqZoPx0s6SxJIeuqPrgcHDGohGQ5mQc (http://hobbsnfriends.com/2019/08/05/34-alexander-macris/?fbclid=IwAR3TklGCFid7HevLxw6802py8djCzqZoPx0s6SxJIeuqPrgcHDGohGQ5mQc)
I'm glad this was reposted. It is a great episode. Mr. Macris is a very classy person and undeserving of the vilification he seems to get in some places. ACKS is one of my favorite RPGs of all time. Back when I was burned out on 4E, I discovered ACKS and it completely revitalized the hobby for me. It was my first experience with OSR D&D and it helped me come back to my roots.
rpg.net is completely irrelevant, to me. I had an account there, at one time. I remember getting a warning about something or other (don't recall what, but I remember it struck me as stupid/incomprehensible). That was kinda the last straw: I just quit going there. Or maybe I closed/removed my account. I don't remember. Whatever. I'm sure they're happier without me there, anyway. I know I'm happier. Best for everyone!
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1098747rpg.net is completely irrelevant, to me. I had an account there, at one time. I remember getting a warning about something or other (don't recall what, but I remember it struck me as stupid/incomprehensible). That was kinda the last straw: I just quit going there. Or maybe I closed/removed my account. I don't remember. Whatever. I'm sure they're happier without me there, anyway. I know I'm happier. Best for everyone!
I don't think they let people close/remove accounts, they like their inflated membership numbers.
Quote from: S'mon;1098757I don't think they let people close/remove accounts, they like their inflated membership numbers.
They do do permabans on request now (though I don't know if that pumps up their user count or not still) - I should know, I was one of the first.
Quote from: steelshadow;1098812They do do permabans on request now (though I don't know if that pumps up their user count or not still) - I should know, I was one of the first.
As far as I know, you can be permabanned, yet still remain a member at their discretion.
They don't mind if their numbers are inflated or not, it's pretty dodgy like that.
Quote from: sharps54;1098543Sorry for bringing back an old thread but Hobbs has reposted the Macris episode. It will be interesting to see the reaction. It is obvious through the interview and his comments in the past that Hobbs loves ACKS, I'm glad he reposted it.
http://hobbsnfriends.com/2019/08/05/34-alexander-macris/?fbclid=IwAR3TklGCFid7HevLxw6802py8djCzqZoPx0s6SxJIeuqPrgcHDGohGQ5mQc (http://hobbsnfriends.com/2019/08/05/34-alexander-macris/?fbclid=IwAR3TklGCFid7HevLxw6802py8djCzqZoPx0s6SxJIeuqPrgcHDGohGQ5mQc)
Sorry for the necromancy, but the episode was taking down again.
to quote:
QuoteHello. I am Jason Hobbs, creator, and host of the RPG Tabletop podcast Hobbs & Friends. I'm creating this recording as a journal entry and observation on Episode #34 of Hobbs & Friends. This particular episode has been a thorn in my side since it was released. I had no idea the guest of the show was such a polarizing individual at the time of the interview and the episode was subsequently censored by the podcasting network I was a part of. It was arguably the reason I didn't win an ENNie, but who really knows. And, more recently in the past few months, it has been an endless and heated discussion.
After doing some digging, I found out about the associations that made them so segregated in the Tabletop Community. There were various accusations concerning multiple aspects of their life, but none of them directly gaming related. Furthermore, evidence was claimed that refuted many of the allegations. I felt guilty for being a part of the Cancel Culture.
I decided in August of 2019 to re-release the episode to answer the endless questions I was receiving and kept getting about the episode, such as; "What did you or your guest say that was so bad you took it down?" "Can I please listen to the episode to understand what the problem is?" to name a few. I wasn't 100% sure the guest was guilty of the accusations and I wanted the topic to go away.
Now, months later, it hasn't gone away. It's gotten worse. So, I've reconsidered. I don't believe I can stand beyond an ugly association. I am not, and have never been, associated with MILO INC. I don't believe any of the religion, philosophy, nor hate speech-as-comedy that comes from that person, nor his camp. I can't ignore, or should I say continue to ignore my guest's part in Gamergate. Therefore, until something separates the guest of Episode #34 and those associations, I cannot, in good conscience keep the show available.
If you have any questions, feel free to contact me at hobbs@hobbsnfriends.com
It's all about power. The "Now, months later, it hasn't gone away. It's gotten worse." brigade that piles on with their "I'm offended! Do what I want!" drama just want power. And people give into their bullshit because standing on your principles is annoyingly hard.
I think the lesson here is: If you have a game, never go to Hobbs & Friends, even if they invite you in good faith.
I mean, how much damage has this podcast done to the ACKS brand?
Quote from: Rithuan;1121949Sorry for the necromancy, but the episode was taking down again.
to quote:
I think that it's been missing for at least a month. I think it's about that long since I tried to listen to it.
Did anyone download it for posterity?
Quote from: ponta1010;1121975I think that it's been missing for at least a month. I think it's about that long since I tried to listen to it.
Did anyone download it for posterity?
I have it on my phone, but I don't know how to export it as a complete file as opposed to a link.
So is that episode no longer here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/hobbs-friends/id1443971042
Quote from: wmarshal;1122011I have it on my phone, but I don't know how to export it as a complete file as opposed to a link.
So is that episode no longer here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/hobbs-friends/id1443971042
No sadly only list I can find jumps from episode 33 to 35. The podcast does have a recent 2 minute episode saying that 34 has been removed again (after it was reinstated).
Quote from: Rithuan;1121961I think the lesson here is: If you have a game, never go to Hobbs & Friends, even if they invite you in good faith.
I mean, how much damage has this podcast done to the ACKS brand?
I certainly won't be listening to the buggers!
Quote from: Larsdangly on July 06, 2018, 04:04:46 PM
This all sounds stupid on all fronts, and like a typical TBP shit storm.
But I am surprised to hear ACKS was written by someone who worked for Milo whats-his-face. What the hell is that all about? No wonder a slice of the roleplaying game community thinks the OSR is full of alt-right fuck wits. It only takes one or two prominent people like that to catch your attention.
ACKS? Is that this roleplaying game? https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/99123/adventurer-conqueror-king-system Is the game itself any good? I don't care if a person is "controversial", as long as they make a good game. Also, by the standards of many on the left, we are all controversial here merely for being nerds XD
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 10:27:12 AM
Quote from: Larsdangly on July 06, 2018, 04:04:46 PM
This all sounds stupid on all fronts, and like a typical TBP shit storm.
But I am surprised to hear ACKS was written by someone who worked for Milo whats-his-face. What the hell is that all about? No wonder a slice of the roleplaying game community thinks the OSR is full of alt-right fuck wits. It only takes one or two prominent people like that to catch your attention.
ACKS? Is that this roleplaying game? https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/99123/adventurer-conqueror-king-system Is the game itself any good? I don't care if a person is "controversial", as long as they make a good game. Also, by the standards of many on the left, we are all controversial here merely for being nerds XD
Yes. That is ACKS. And ACKS is an
excellent game. Better than OSE, in my opinion.
Did we need 39 pages to know that RPG.Net is a woke cesspool of "left good/right bad" thinking?
Then again, I'm sure we all have stories and want to share. Like me getting a temp ban because I joked offhandedly and negatively about my own religion in a conversation about the Cleric class.
I left when I banned again for defending this evil writer named RPG Pundit who wrote a game I like.
Quote from: RandyB on November 22, 2022, 10:34:18 AM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 10:27:12 AM
Quote from: Larsdangly on July 06, 2018, 04:04:46 PM
This all sounds stupid on all fronts, and like a typical TBP shit storm.
But I am surprised to hear ACKS was written by someone who worked for Milo whats-his-face. What the hell is that all about? No wonder a slice of the roleplaying game community thinks the OSR is full of alt-right fuck wits. It only takes one or two prominent people like that to catch your attention.
ACKS? Is that this roleplaying game? https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/99123/adventurer-conqueror-king-system Is the game itself any good? I don't care if a person is "controversial", as long as they make a good game. Also, by the standards of many on the left, we are all controversial here merely for being nerds XD
Yes. That is ACKS. And ACKS is an excellent game. Better than OSE, in my opinion.
I agree. OSE is a a B/X STRICT clone - even the typos are kept. ACKS is streamlined/expanded/improved B/X. But then again, so is LotFP, BFRPG, my Dark Fantasy Basic, etc.
I think I will call this "the B/X paradox", because B/X is my favorite game but I like every improvement on it more than the original (I do NOT consider AD&D or 3.X do be an improvement over B/X, BTW, so I'm probably still missing some parts of my definition...).
EDIT: The B/X paradox:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/11/the-bx-paradox-also-ad-paradox-minimum.html
Quote
I agree. OSE is a a B/X STRICT clone - even the typos are kept. ACKS is streamlined/expanded/improved B/X. But then again, so is LotFP, BFRPG, my Dark Fantasy Basic, etc.
I think I will call this "the B/X paradox", because B/X is my favorite game but I like every improvement on it more than the original (I do NOT consider AD&D or 3.X do be an improvement over B/X, BTW, so I'm probably still missing some parts of my definition...).
That's exactly how it seems to be. Basic D&D is the baseline rulebook for so many OSR games I can't keep up. I just picked Basic Fantasy as a game to try based on the insanely low cost of $5 for a book.
They're all just house rules for old Basic D&D. I dislike OSE because it keeps the game as it was. I'm not a huge fan of D&D overall, so the modified ones like Shadow of the Demon Prince or Dungeons and Delvers are more my style
Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 22, 2022, 11:57:52 AM
Quote from: RandyB on November 22, 2022, 10:34:18 AM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 10:27:12 AM
Quote from: Larsdangly on July 06, 2018, 04:04:46 PM
This all sounds stupid on all fronts, and like a typical TBP shit storm.
But I am surprised to hear ACKS was written by someone who worked for Milo whats-his-face. What the hell is that all about? No wonder a slice of the roleplaying game community thinks the OSR is full of alt-right fuck wits. It only takes one or two prominent people like that to catch your attention.
ACKS? Is that this roleplaying game? https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/99123/adventurer-conqueror-king-system Is the game itself any good? I don't care if a person is "controversial", as long as they make a good game. Also, by the standards of many on the left, we are all controversial here merely for being nerds XD
Yes. That is ACKS. And ACKS is an excellent game. Better than OSE, in my opinion.
I agree. OSE is a a B/X STRICT clone - even the typos are kept. ACKS is streamlined/expanded/improved B/X. But then again, so is LotFP, BFRPG, my Dark Fantasy Basic, etc.
I think I will call this "the B/X paradox", because B/X is my favorite game but I like every improvement on it more than the original (I do NOT consider AD&D or 3.X do be an improvement over B/X, BTW, so I'm probably still missing some parts of my definition...).
EDIT: The B/X paradox:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/11/the-bx-paradox-also-ad-paradox-minimum.html
I've only ever played D&D 3.5 edition, Pathfinder 1E, D&D 4th edition, and D&D 5th edition. How does it compare to these series? Is the way it plays comparible as in that it also uses D20's?
And what are OSE and B/X ?
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 03:35:55 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 22, 2022, 11:57:52 AM
Quote from: RandyB on November 22, 2022, 10:34:18 AM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 10:27:12 AM
Quote from: Larsdangly on July 06, 2018, 04:04:46 PM
This all sounds stupid on all fronts, and like a typical TBP shit storm.
But I am surprised to hear ACKS was written by someone who worked for Milo whats-his-face. What the hell is that all about? No wonder a slice of the roleplaying game community thinks the OSR is full of alt-right fuck wits. It only takes one or two prominent people like that to catch your attention.
ACKS? Is that this roleplaying game? https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/99123/adventurer-conqueror-king-system Is the game itself any good? I don't care if a person is "controversial", as long as they make a good game. Also, by the standards of many on the left, we are all controversial here merely for being nerds XD
Yes. That is ACKS. And ACKS is an excellent game. Better than OSE, in my opinion.
I agree. OSE is a a B/X STRICT clone - even the typos are kept. ACKS is streamlined/expanded/improved B/X. But then again, so is LotFP, BFRPG, my Dark Fantasy Basic, etc.
I think I will call this "the B/X paradox", because B/X is my favorite game but I like every improvement on it more than the original (I do NOT consider AD&D or 3.X do be an improvement over B/X, BTW, so I'm probably still missing some parts of my definition...).
EDIT: The B/X paradox:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/11/the-bx-paradox-also-ad-paradox-minimum.html
I've only ever played D&D 3.5 edition, Pathfinder 1E, D&D 4th edition, and D&D 5th edition. How does it compare to these series? Is the way it plays comparible as in that it also uses D20's?
And what are OSE and B/X ?
why in the name of god would you resurrect a 3yr old dead thread about drama that happened almost 5 years ago? Are you just trying to inflate your post count?
Quote from: THE_Leopold on November 22, 2022, 03:45:02 PM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 03:35:55 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 22, 2022, 11:57:52 AM
Quote from: RandyB on November 22, 2022, 10:34:18 AM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 10:27:12 AM
Quote from: Larsdangly on July 06, 2018, 04:04:46 PM
This all sounds stupid on all fronts, and like a typical TBP shit storm.
But I am surprised to hear ACKS was written by someone who worked for Milo whats-his-face. What the hell is that all about? No wonder a slice of the roleplaying game community thinks the OSR is full of alt-right fuck wits. It only takes one or two prominent people like that to catch your attention.
ACKS? Is that this roleplaying game? https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/99123/adventurer-conqueror-king-system Is the game itself any good? I don't care if a person is "controversial", as long as they make a good game. Also, by the standards of many on the left, we are all controversial here merely for being nerds XD
Yes. That is ACKS. And ACKS is an excellent game. Better than OSE, in my opinion.
I agree. OSE is a a B/X STRICT clone - even the typos are kept. ACKS is streamlined/expanded/improved B/X. But then again, so is LotFP, BFRPG, my Dark Fantasy Basic, etc.
I think I will call this "the B/X paradox", because B/X is my favorite game but I like every improvement on it more than the original (I do NOT consider AD&D or 3.X do be an improvement over B/X, BTW, so I'm probably still missing some parts of my definition...).
EDIT: The B/X paradox:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/11/the-bx-paradox-also-ad-paradox-minimum.html
I've only ever played D&D 3.5 edition, Pathfinder 1E, D&D 4th edition, and D&D 5th edition. How does it compare to these series? Is the way it plays comparible as in that it also uses D20's?
And what are OSE and B/X ?
why in the name of god would you resurrect a 3yr old dead thread about drama that happened almost 5 years ago? Are you just trying to inflate your post count?
The thread was pretty recent at the top when I looked it up, which is how I got there. I am looking for a new system to play as D&D 5th edition is sadly going down the drain after all the woke ideologues have infiltraded the "creative" side, and the "fan"-base. Same with Pathfinder 2E. So I thought I'd ask around on a few posts that I saw make mention of other systems.
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 04:05:04 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on November 22, 2022, 03:45:02 PM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 03:35:55 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 22, 2022, 11:57:52 AM
Quote from: RandyB on November 22, 2022, 10:34:18 AM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 10:27:12 AM
Quote from: Larsdangly on July 06, 2018, 04:04:46 PM
This all sounds stupid on all fronts, and like a typical TBP shit storm.
But I am surprised to hear ACKS was written by someone who worked for Milo whats-his-face. What the hell is that all about? No wonder a slice of the roleplaying game community thinks the OSR is full of alt-right fuck wits. It only takes one or two prominent people like that to catch your attention.
ACKS? Is that this roleplaying game? https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/99123/adventurer-conqueror-king-system Is the game itself any good? I don't care if a person is "controversial", as long as they make a good game. Also, by the standards of many on the left, we are all controversial here merely for being nerds XD
Yes. That is ACKS. And ACKS is an excellent game. Better than OSE, in my opinion.
I agree. OSE is a a B/X STRICT clone - even the typos are kept. ACKS is streamlined/expanded/improved B/X. But then again, so is LotFP, BFRPG, my Dark Fantasy Basic, etc.
I think I will call this "the B/X paradox", because B/X is my favorite game but I like every improvement on it more than the original (I do NOT consider AD&D or 3.X do be an improvement over B/X, BTW, so I'm probably still missing some parts of my definition...).
EDIT: The B/X paradox:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/11/the-bx-paradox-also-ad-paradox-minimum.html
I've only ever played D&D 3.5 edition, Pathfinder 1E, D&D 4th edition, and D&D 5th edition. How does it compare to these series? Is the way it plays comparible as in that it also uses D20's?
And what are OSE and B/X ?
why in the name of god would you resurrect a 3yr old dead thread about drama that happened almost 5 years ago? Are you just trying to inflate your post count?
The thread was pretty recent at the top when I looked it up, which is how I got there. I am looking for a new system to play as D&D 5th edition is sadly going down the drain after all the woke ideologues have infiltraded the "creative" side, and the "fan"-base. Same with Pathfinder 2E. So I thought I'd ask around on a few posts that I saw make mention of other systems.
OSE Classic Fantasy, is a peek into what Non-AD&D, D&D was like; in the early heyday of D&D popularity. When TSR was rocking and rolling, and Gary Gygax was still at TSR.
Quote from: RandyB on November 22, 2022, 10:34:18 AM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 10:27:12 AM
Quote from: Larsdangly on July 06, 2018, 04:04:46 PM
This all sounds stupid on all fronts, and like a typical TBP shit storm.
But I am surprised to hear ACKS was written by someone who worked for Milo whats-his-face. What the hell is that all about? No wonder a slice of the roleplaying game community thinks the OSR is full of alt-right fuck wits. It only takes one or two prominent people like that to catch your attention.
ACKS? Is that this roleplaying game? https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/99123/adventurer-conqueror-king-system Is the game itself any good? I don't care if a person is "controversial", as long as they make a good game. Also, by the standards of many on the left, we are all controversial here merely for being nerds XD
Yes. That is ACKS. And ACKS is an excellent game. Better than OSE, in my opinion.
How does it compare to savage worlds? I'm looking around, and so far most people recommended Savage Worlds to me.
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 04:35:12 PM
Quote from: RandyB on November 22, 2022, 10:34:18 AM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 10:27:12 AM
Quote from: Larsdangly on July 06, 2018, 04:04:46 PM
This all sounds stupid on all fronts, and like a typical TBP shit storm.
But I am surprised to hear ACKS was written by someone who worked for Milo whats-his-face. What the hell is that all about? No wonder a slice of the roleplaying game community thinks the OSR is full of alt-right fuck wits. It only takes one or two prominent people like that to catch your attention.
ACKS? Is that this roleplaying game? https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/99123/adventurer-conqueror-king-system Is the game itself any good? I don't care if a person is "controversial", as long as they make a good game. Also, by the standards of many on the left, we are all controversial here merely for being nerds XD
Yes. That is ACKS. And ACKS is an excellent game. Better than OSE, in my opinion.
How does it compare to savage worlds? I'm looking around, and so far most people recommended Savage Worlds to me.
Savage Worlds is way more of a toolkit and the math at its foundation not quite as simple* as it appears at the surface (a friend and I have been beating our head against it for quite some time); particularly compared to single die linear distributions.
*The math is based on the better of two dice, often of different sizes/types, that can individually explode if you roll the maximum result on them (which is also more likely the smaller the die type is (i.e. 25% chance with a d4 vs. 8.33% with a d12) and with margins of success based on increments of 4.
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 04:05:04 PMThe thread was pretty recent at the top when I looked it up, which is how I got there. I am looking for a new system to play as D&D 5th edition is sadly going down the drain after all the woke ideologues have infiltraded the "creative" side, and the "fan"-base. Same with Pathfinder 2E. So I thought I'd ask around on a few posts that I saw make mention of other systems.
Fair enough; for what it's worth, generally if you have questions about a particular system, nobody has any problem with you starting a fresh thread to ask, and that's usually better than necro'ing an old thread.
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 03:35:55 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 22, 2022, 11:57:52 AM
Quote from: RandyB on November 22, 2022, 10:34:18 AM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 10:27:12 AM
Quote from: Larsdangly on July 06, 2018, 04:04:46 PM
This all sounds stupid on all fronts, and like a typical TBP shit storm.
But I am surprised to hear ACKS was written by someone who worked for Milo whats-his-face. What the hell is that all about? No wonder a slice of the roleplaying game community thinks the OSR is full of alt-right fuck wits. It only takes one or two prominent people like that to catch your attention.
ACKS? Is that this roleplaying game? https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/99123/adventurer-conqueror-king-system Is the game itself any good? I don't care if a person is "controversial", as long as they make a good game. Also, by the standards of many on the left, we are all controversial here merely for being nerds XD
Yes. That is ACKS. And ACKS is an excellent game. Better than OSE, in my opinion.
I agree. OSE is a a B/X STRICT clone - even the typos are kept. ACKS is streamlined/expanded/improved B/X. But then again, so is LotFP, BFRPG, my Dark Fantasy Basic, etc.
I think I will call this "the B/X paradox", because B/X is my favorite game but I like every improvement on it more than the original (I do NOT consider AD&D or 3.X do be an improvement over B/X, BTW, so I'm probably still missing some parts of my definition...).
EDIT: The B/X paradox:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/11/the-bx-paradox-also-ad-paradox-minimum.html
I've only ever played D&D 3.5 edition, Pathfinder 1E, D&D 4th edition, and D&D 5th edition. How does it compare to these series? Is the way it plays comparible as in that it also uses D20's?
And what are OSE and B/X ?
B/X is classic D&D (Moldvay's Basic D&D and Cook's Expert D&D). OSE is an exact copy with better organization.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTleVdzqiPZnn5SFl-SyJN8VvKtfaW0d2SZsQ&usqp=CAU)
ACKS, Dark Fantasy Basic, BFRPG, etc., are streamlined versions of B/X rather than exact copies.
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 10:27:12 AM
ACKS? Is that this roleplaying game? https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/99123/adventurer-conqueror-king-system Is the game itself any good? I don't care if a person is "controversial", as long as they make a good game. Also, by the standards of many on the left, we are all controversial here merely for being nerds XD
ACKS is excellent.
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 22, 2022, 04:50:02 PM
Savage Worlds is way more of a toolkit and the math at its foundation not quite as simple* as it appears at the surface (a friend and I have been beating our head against it for quite some time); particularly compared to single die linear distributions.
*The math is based on the better of two dice, often of different sizes/types, that can individually explode if you roll the maximum result on them (which is also more likely the smaller the die type is (i.e. 25% chance with a d4 vs. 8.33% with a d12) and with margins of success based on increments of 4.
What are you trying to do with the math? That sounds a little complex but far from intractable.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 22, 2022, 08:21:29 PM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 03:35:55 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 22, 2022, 11:57:52 AM
Quote from: RandyB on November 22, 2022, 10:34:18 AM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 22, 2022, 10:27:12 AM
Quote from: Larsdangly on July 06, 2018, 04:04:46 PM
This all sounds stupid on all fronts, and like a typical TBP shit storm.
But I am surprised to hear ACKS was written by someone who worked for Milo whats-his-face. What the hell is that all about? No wonder a slice of the roleplaying game community thinks the OSR is full of alt-right fuck wits. It only takes one or two prominent people like that to catch your attention.
ACKS? Is that this roleplaying game? https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/99123/adventurer-conqueror-king-system Is the game itself any good? I don't care if a person is "controversial", as long as they make a good game. Also, by the standards of many on the left, we are all controversial here merely for being nerds XD
Yes. That is ACKS. And ACKS is an excellent game. Better than OSE, in my opinion.
I agree. OSE is a a B/X STRICT clone - even the typos are kept. ACKS is streamlined/expanded/improved B/X. But then again, so is LotFP, BFRPG, my Dark Fantasy Basic, etc.
I think I will call this "the B/X paradox", because B/X is my favorite game but I like every improvement on it more than the original (I do NOT consider AD&D or 3.X do be an improvement over B/X, BTW, so I'm probably still missing some parts of my definition...).
EDIT: The B/X paradox:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/11/the-bx-paradox-also-ad-paradox-minimum.html
I've only ever played D&D 3.5 edition, Pathfinder 1E, D&D 4th edition, and D&D 5th edition. How does it compare to these series? Is the way it plays comparible as in that it also uses D20's?
And what are OSE and B/X ?
B/X is classic D&D (Moldvay's Basic D&D and Cook's Expert D&D). OSE is an exact copy with better organization.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTleVdzqiPZnn5SFl-SyJN8VvKtfaW0d2SZsQ&usqp=CAU)
ACKS, Dark Fantasy Basic, BFRPG, etc., are streamlined versions of B/X rather than exact copies.
Alright, thank you! I will look into going either ACKS or Savage World I think. I did love the detail and customization options from Pathfinder (which is basically D&D 3.75), so I might go with this option: https://peginc.com/store/pathfinder-for-savage-worlds-core-rules/
Nielspeterdejong,
Tenbones has experience with SW Pathfinder:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/anyone-playing-savage-worlds-pathfinder/
Quote from: Mishihari on November 23, 2022, 01:03:43 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 22, 2022, 04:50:02 PM
Savage Worlds is way more of a toolkit and the math at its foundation not quite as simple* as it appears at the surface (a friend and I have been beating our head against it for quite some time); particularly compared to single die linear distributions.
*The math is based on the better of two dice, often of different sizes/types, that can individually explode if you roll the maximum result on them (which is also more likely the smaller the die type is (i.e. 25% chance with a d4 vs. 8.33% with a d12) and with margins of success based on increments of 4.
What are you trying to do with the math? That sounds a little complex but far from intractable.
Trying to figure out the best armor and weapon damage values for a sci-fi setting given that it doesn't use direct hit points but damage vs. a threshold and every 4 points you beat it by adds an additional effect/wound.
In a linear distribution against hit points this is easy; 2d10 damage is about 11... if you want a mook to drop in about two hits and they have DR 5 armor, then set their hp at 6-12 and you're done. A hero can be modeled just by giving them greater hit points even if they have the same gear. Regardless, shots with the 2d10 weapon can eventually bring anything with DR 5 armor down.
In Savage Worlds though, instead of hit points, the threshold for damage is increased by individual vigor+armor and heroes (wild cards in game lingo) often have the same toughness as mooks and must rely on a roll granted by a consumable resource to possibly reduce damage (you need a 4+ on your vigor or wild die to reduce a hit by one level with an 8+ reducting by 2, etc.).
Related to this is that damage dice explode too... I've seen 2d8 score a 27 for its damage result before. And weapons routinely have an armor piercing quality that can reduce the value of armor worn and armor can have a trait that reduces damage before you apply AP to it... oh, and there's an unarmored hero rules that grants +2 to those rolls to reduce damage by spending a finite resource.
Oh, and raises... when you beat the target's defense by 4 or more you get to add another d6 to the damage (which basically amounts to a 50-50 shot at dealing an extra level of damage given how the system runs on margins of 4).
There's also the fact that the relatively small die sizes used for task resolution also meant a rather small window for viable difficulties and odds of success past the single digits just crater even for the extremely competent.
So, when you say 2d8 AP 2 vs. a toughness of 8 (5 from vigor, 3 from armor) that reduces energy damage by 4 points you can calculate odds for a "shake" (lowest hit effect level) and varying levels of damage easily enough... but make the toughness 9 or the AP 1 or 3 or change the dice to 2d6 or 2d10 and it can swing the numbers much much more than you'd see in a flat distribution with ablative hit points.
Which makes it a pain in the butt when you're needing to design a whole set of weapons (pistols, rifles, SAW equivalents, knives, laser swords that aren't stupidly OP*, personal rockets, light rail guns, etc.) and sets of armor for the setting that behave as you wish.
Now, throw in the variability of small sample sizes. 50% in a 1000 tests might result in 45-55% in a hundred tests and 30-70% in the half-dozen rolls a player might make in a single combat and what on paper looks fine feels like a TPK dealing monstrosity because there is no assured way to mitigate the extreme results in the way an ablative hit point pool can absorb an outlier or two.
I'm working with it because the GM likes the system and its swinginess, but there are times the variability gets too wild even for them.
* laser swords in SWADE core look like they've been statted by a fanboy who believes the Star Wars radio drama's line that a lightsaber can cut through anything without resistance literally (never mind Vader should have lost his arm again to Luke in ESB when he took the shoulder hit to his armor or Qui-Gon not instantly cutting through the blast doors at the open of TPM) because the values assigned are ridiculous; Str+d6+8 with AP 12. For perspective, a 75mm tank gun has AP 6 and does only slightly more raw damage (4d10).
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 23, 2022, 10:23:50 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on November 23, 2022, 01:03:43 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 22, 2022, 04:50:02 PM
Savage Worlds is way more of a toolkit and the math at its foundation not quite as simple* as it appears at the surface (a friend and I have been beating our head against it for quite some time); particularly compared to single die linear distributions.
*The math is based on the better of two dice, often of different sizes/types, that can individually explode if you roll the maximum result on them (which is also more likely the smaller the die type is (i.e. 25% chance with a d4 vs. 8.33% with a d12) and with margins of success based on increments of 4.
What are you trying to do with the math? That sounds a little complex but far from intractable.
Trying to figure out the best armor and weapon damage values for a sci-fi setting given that it doesn't use direct hit points but damage vs. a threshold and every 4 points you beat it by adds an additional effect/wound.
In a linear distribution against hit points this is easy; 2d10 damage is about 11... if you want a mook to drop in about two hits and they have DR 5 armor, then set their hp at 6-12 and you're done. A hero can be modeled just by giving them greater hit points even if they have the same gear. Regardless, shots with the 2d10 weapon can eventually bring anything with DR 5 armor down.
In Savage Worlds though, instead of hit points, the threshold for damage is increased by individual vigor+armor and heroes (wild cards in game lingo) often have the same toughness as mooks and must rely on a roll granted by a consumable resource to possibly reduce damage (you need a 4+ on your vigor or wild die to reduce a hit by one level with an 8+ reducting by 2, etc.).
Related to this is that damage dice explode too... I've seen 2d8 score a 27 for its damage result before. And weapons routinely have an armor piercing quality that can reduce the value of armor worn and armor can have a trait that reduces damage before you apply AP to it... oh, and there's an unarmored hero rules that grants +2 to those rolls to reduce damage by spending a finite resource.
Oh, and raises... when you beat the target's defense by 4 or more you get to add another d6 to the damage (which basically amounts to a 50-50 shot at dealing an extra level of damage given how the system runs on margins of 4).
There's also the fact that the relatively small die sizes used for task resolution also meant a rather small window for viable difficulties and odds of success past the single digits just crater even for the extremely competent.
So, when you say 2d8 AP 2 vs. a toughness of 8 (5 from vigor, 3 from armor) that reduces energy damage by 4 points you can calculate odds for a "shake" (lowest hit effect level) and varying levels of damage easily enough... but make the toughness 9 or the AP 1 or 3 or change the dice to 2d6 or 2d10 and it can swing the numbers much much more than you'd see in a flat distribution with ablative hit points.
Which makes it a pain in the butt when you're needing to design a whole set of weapons (pistols, rifles, SAW equivalents, knives, laser swords that aren't stupidly OP*, personal rockets, light rail guns, etc.) and sets of armor for the setting that behave as you wish.
Now, throw in the variability of small sample sizes. 50% in a 1000 tests might result in 45-55% in a hundred tests and 30-70% in the half-dozen rolls a player might make in a single combat and what on paper looks fine feels like a TPK dealing monstrosity because there is no assured way to mitigate the extreme results in the way an ablative hit point pool can absorb an outlier or two.
I'm working with it because the GM likes the system and its swinginess, but there are times the variability gets too wild even for them.
* laser swords in SWADE core look like they've been statted by a fanboy who believes the Star Wars radio drama's line that a lightsaber can cut through anything without resistance literally (never mind Vader should have lost his arm again to Luke in ESB when he took the shoulder hit to his armor or Qui-Gon not instantly cutting through the blast doors at the open of TPM) because the values assigned are ridiculous; Str+d6+8 with AP 12. For perspective, a 75mm tank gun has AP 6 and does only slightly more raw damage (4d10).
I take it back. That does sound like a mess, especially the bit about variability. I was hoping to offer some advice but without an in-depth knowledge of the rules I don't think I can offer much. It doesn't sound impossible to manage, just a lot of work to get an initial handle on it.
While Chris2461 is not wrong... I think its getting bogged down in the possibilities rather than leaning on what's considered "established".
SWADE Core baselines pretty much everything from medieval weaponry to modern and futuristic weaponry against the core realities of what their stats mean:
d6 Vigor is what Average people have. Toughness is Vigor halved +2, so 5. There is no point in trying to "account" for blistering die-explosions, those are part of the game on purpose.
When it comes to creating new Weapon and Armor - there are already good ceilings with predictable results in Savage Rifts (and sweet Jeebus, do you need to create anything more powerful than this? Heh what kind of game are you running?). I completely agree that AP is "arbitrary", which I take to mean "setting conceits". The lightsaber situation is VERY much arbitrary, SWADE is a system about tropes not "realism". So yes, it's a bit fanboyish to say a Lightsaber has AP12...
But that *is* consistent with the movies in regards to what a lightsaber is actually doing. Not every action on camera necessarily would map to round-by-round combat, certainly a Lightsaber hitting Darth Vader *could* do that, it's been established multiple times in the movies (Cantina, Wampa, Slicing off a section of a AT-AT walker). The Qui-Gon scene, to me, was a Dramatic Action in which the player would say "I try to cut through the bulkhead doors!" and my reply would have been "That's going to be a Dramatic Action and it'll take six successes to cut through - start rolling!) in which case that would tie him up for x-number of rounds. It's not a question to me whether the lightsaber could cut through - it's simply a matter of how long it would take.
Within the context of SWADE armor values are pretty consistent across their different settings, both 3rd party and Pinnacle's own.
Light Armor caps around +2 point, Medium +4, and Heavy at +6. There *are* exceptions to these norms but they're generally setting specific.
Modern-ish Weapons tend to float around 2d6 for Pistols and small caliber rifles, to 3d6 for Shotguns at close range, and large rifles commanding 2d8+. Their medieval weapons scale right alongside these numbers - Arrows are 2d6 for example.
Now where *you* as the GM and/or setting designer need to consider things are the corollaries of your weaponry. Special materials? High-velocity rounds etc. In almost all cases, Savage Worlds already has examples for you. Your Cyberpunk setting might not use Adamantine, but there is no reason you can't use those values for your Tungsten-alloy rounds. Or at the very least they can give you some common-sense guidance as to what the trope your magic alloy is supposed to represent.
Savage Worlds is very good about tossing the particulars to give both players and GM's options to express an action and make it cool and cinematic while the GM can thrown in countless monkey-wrenches into the process.
There are *always* going to be those exploding dice. But even there, you have in-game Setting Rules to mitigate the things you don't like. For example if you don't like exploding dice? Cap the results. There are setting rules where you can simply say no single shot can cause more than 3-Wounds in a single blow. Problem solved.
The worst thing to do is read the dice so literally that it seems silly rather than cool. Unless that's what you're going for.
There ARE some weird little math flaws - like the chance of rolling an explosion on a d6 is greater than a d8 with a wild die, but you can resolve that with adding Fudge dice. The margin is less than 1%... so if you care you can solve it that way.
Edit: Let me amend this. I MEANT to say the chance of hitting a higher Target Number 6 is mathematically more PROBABLE on a d6 than a d8. The issue, of course is that standard Target Numbers for Savage Worlds are 4. The glitch is *tiny*. See my post below (which is just me relaying Zadmar's analysis).
@Tenbones
That problem of larger dice having a smaller chance to ace has been giving me design problems for a bit. What do you mean when you say adding in fudge dice?
So the Fudge system has these dice with + or - on them. They also have blanks. If you add one or two dice to each roll, it changes the probability curve and flattens it.
Fudge Dice (https://www.amazon.com/Fudge-Dice-Black-dice-plastic/dp/B001N18FBQ)
QuoteFrom Zadmar
Fudge Dice
When making a trait roll, you may choose to roll one or two fudge dice at the same time. Each "+" increases the result by +1, while each "-" reduces the result by -1.
Goal: There is a very small glitch in the Savage Worlds probability curve, due to the way that exploding dice work. Most people consider it too small to be significant (particularly when you factor in raises as well), but for some it's a deal-breaker, so this rule removes the glitch.
RAW: The glitch means that d4 is more likely to succeed at TN 6 than d6, d6 is more likely to succeed at TN 8 than d8, and so on. Constructs and undead are actually slightly more likely to get a raise when recovering from Shaken if they have Spirit d4 rather than Spirit d6.
Impact: Players who don't care about this issue can ignore the rule, but for those who feel strongly about it this solution is pretty quick and easy to use. You can see the glitch here (http://www.godwars2.org/SavageWorlds/images/fudge/Normal.png), along with the difference made by using one (http://www.godwars2.org/SavageWorlds/images/fudge/OneFudgeDie.png)or two (http://www.godwars2.org/SavageWorlds/images/fudge/TwoFudgeDice.png)fudge dice, and a comparison for d4 (http://www.godwars2.org/SavageWorlds/images/fudge/d4.png), d6 (http://www.godwars2.org/SavageWorlds/images/fudge/d6.png), d8 (http://www.godwars2.org/SavageWorlds/images/fudge/d8.png), d10 (http://www.godwars2.org/SavageWorlds/images/fudge/d10.png)and d12 (http://www.godwars2.org/SavageWorlds/images/fudge/d12.png).
Note: Some people have expressed confusion as to how a fudge die would have any impact when it averages 0, so to clarify: A d4 is more likely to succeed at TN 6 than a d6, as mentioned previously (18.75% vs 16.67%). However, because the dice explode, the result of a d6 roll cannot actually be 6, it'll be at least 7 (6+1). If you roll 5, there's a 33.33% chance of a fudge die increasing the result to 6, turning failure into a success -- but if you roll 7, it doesn't matter if a fudge die reduces it to 6, because 6 is still a success
Again the glitch is tiny. My players don't even care, but I put Fudge Dice out there for anyone to use if it makes them feel good.
Interesting. I never thought of using fudge dice here. In practice it's probably more annoying to me since I know the system better, but I think I'll give this option to my players next time we run a SW game.
Yeah it's pretty genius. You never know tho, some players like rolling more dice. It's kind of a big joke when I grab the extra dice for emphasis to claim I'm about to pack the PC's Fudge on an important roll...
only to see the "-" come up and totally fuck up my roll.
Always a hoot.
Edit: to bring this back somewhat on topic, I have it on my to-do list to convert a lot of the elements of ACKS to Savage Worlds.