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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: tuypo1 on April 06, 2015, 06:42:53 PM

Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: tuypo1 on April 06, 2015, 06:42:53 PM
as a spinoff to the non coin economy thread what are your thoughts on abstracted wealth rather then measuring your money and buying things for a set price

i fucking hate it
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: TristramEvans on April 06, 2015, 06:45:38 PM
Depends on the setting. I use it in supers games and in games featuring modern economic situations, as bean-counting doesnt appropriately reflect the nuances of budgeting in the modern world.

I use straight "this is how many coins you have and this is how much things cost" in medieval and pre-industrial settings.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: soviet on April 06, 2015, 07:00:28 PM
Quote from: TristramEvans;824355
Depends on the setting. I use it in supers games and in games featuring modern economic situations, as bean-counting doesnt appropriately reflect the nuances of budgeting in the modern world.

I use straight "this is how many coins you have and this is how much things cost" in medieval and pre-industrial settings.


Yeah, this basically.

I'm currently writing some notes on handling these issues in conflict resolution style games where it gets a bit more complicated. Basically, my thinking is that if we're not tracking income and expenditure, this is how we handle different situations where money could be relevant

It's just background fluff = then no need to mechanise it or write it down
It's a way of making the character more effective = then it's an excuse to spend XP on advancement or whatever, maybe with a discount
It's a way of solving a problem = then it's a conflict roll, maybe with a bonus
Lack of money is a problem in itself = reflect this in conflict stakes then, assigning flaws like Dirt Poor or Constantly Hungry or Cannot Afford the Latest Newtech
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: jhkim on April 06, 2015, 07:18:08 PM
I generally prefer an abstract system, or just hand-waving over the details, rather than coin-counting.

Tracking the cost of ammunition, train tickets, hotels, and so forth feels like filling out expense reports. I don't find it fun.

Also, based on my experience, I associate it with games where characters live like ultra-misers - staying in flophouses and eating gruel so they can afford plate mail or dynamite or whatever.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Ronin on April 06, 2015, 07:46:36 PM
I generally dislike it. I can see where it makes sense in certain games/genre/circumstances. But I don't care for it, and choose not use it.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Opaopajr on April 07, 2015, 02:51:17 PM
I love it. It makes logical sense as debt is quite ancient and people didn't often wander around hauling huge amounts of liquidated assets. It also heavily embeds the PCs into the interlaced framework of setting.

When you have to visit others to call in your wealth, it becomes an adventure unto itself (through travel and negotiations alone). That said, it is optional to players as people were also quite familiar with how to manage accounts over any significant distances.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: flyingmice on April 07, 2015, 03:24:47 PM
I much prefer it, and use it in all of my games since... like 10 years ago. Dicking with coins does nothing for me.

-clash
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Doctor Jest on April 07, 2015, 03:29:24 PM
I have no desire to play Accountants & Actuaries. The less minutia I have to track, the better.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Bren on April 07, 2015, 05:10:29 PM
I dislike wealth levels as a mechanic. In games where accumulating wealth is a motive for play e.g. playing tomb robbers, pirates, smugglers, mercenaries, or treasure hunters, wealth levels are an odd abstraction "you find a chest worth 2 wealth levels" just doesn't resonate or sound cool when compared to "the chest is filled with gold doubloons. There must be at least a thousand coins there."

Even if the game is not about accumulating wealth, wealth levels come across like currency where the smallest coin is $1000 and there is no way to make change. Want to buy a newspaper, a drink in the bar, or a t-shirt? Well you have a $1000 bill, those things are free. Want to buy a new suit or rent a hotel room downtown for one night. Make a wealth roll. If you roll good, its free. Roll bad and you just spent $1000. No sorry you can't get a new suit for less than that today.

I'd rather have more detail and actually track coins, items of value, etc. in a game where accumulating wealth is an object of play or I'd rather have less detail and totally hand wave wealth without the need to track levels.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: woodsmoke on April 07, 2015, 05:19:07 PM
I used to be all about hard prices paid in hard coinage, but the past couple years I've come around to abstract wealth more. I haven't really kept a running tally of incomes and expenses on any of my recent characters, just a general idea of roughly how much money they have so I know whether I can afford a shiny new gear. The game is honestly better for it. Less time spent writing down numbers, looking up gear costs and haggling with the DM is more time spent actually role playing, which is a win in my book.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: rway218 on April 07, 2015, 05:23:42 PM
I put this on the players in part:  how well do they correctly keep up with wealth?   do they "fudge" the amounts to get more or keep a true log of wealth.

As for GMs:   do they want to take the time to set prices and bargin during play?  how often do they fudge numbers?

for expediency I tend to trust a character had enough, or go abstract by getting a list of needed items, and tell them all they can find and afford.  

I can see either
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Bren on April 07, 2015, 05:31:59 PM
Quote from: woodsmoke;824506
...just a general idea of roughly how much money they have so I know whether I can afford a shiny new gear. The game is honestly better for it. Less time spent writing down numbers, looking up gear costs and haggling with the DM is more time spent actually role playing, which is a win in my book.

I agree with part of this.

I like looking over list of shiny new gear (or even used old gear) and considering what my PC might want to acquire. I like gear. I like lists of gear. Being able to shop for stuff is actually something I like to do maybe once every six or ten sessions of the game. Not an entire shopping session but spending 1 hour out of every 40-50 hours of gaming seems reasonable to me.

Knowing how much actual money or items of value and approximate prices means I can consider what my PC might want that he/she can afford. Then the character can go shop without a lot of hassle where every purchase requires haggling with the GM. Having no actual money and no price list makes everything a meta negotiation with the GM. I'm OK with my character negotiating with the sword maker or gunsmith, but me haggling with the GM about what my character ought to be able to afford is an annoying time waster for me.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: woodsmoke on April 07, 2015, 05:43:37 PM
Solid point. I also like the gear lists and the itemization of what stuff actually costs, I'm just too lazy to bother with keeping an exact running tally of my character's physical wealth - though I do write down an approximate amount to make sure I don't forget something and think my character has more money than s/he does. Let me see what's available, tell me how much it costs, I'll buy what I'm interested in and can afford and reduce my general idea of roughly how much money my character has (and the approximate tally) accordingly.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Omega on April 07, 2015, 05:50:17 PM
That was the system in d20 modern Gamma World. Problem was it was a little tooooo abstracted and if the GM wasnt paying attention you could pull all sorts of weird stunts. Without some way to curb it the abstract wealth broke down pretty fast.

I am sure there must be games that use abstract wealth. But actually have limiters on how its applied.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Old One Eye on April 07, 2015, 06:16:35 PM
Cannot stand abstract wealth.  Probably because I have a background in banking and finance.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Opaopajr on April 07, 2015, 06:49:29 PM
I feel I overlooked the other reading of "abstracted wealth." I was thinking of debts, credits, favors, boons, and the like. This conversation seems more about RPG hand-wavium.

Given some systems use things like Resource (WW), Credit (CoC), or Profession (various rpgs) levels, I am OK with abstracted wealth as RPG hand-wavium. D&D 5e using Lifestyle levels is a similar handy convenience. If you're middle or upper-middle bracket income, I'm going to assume you can afford a new shovel and some lanterns.

I just don't want it to replace buying and selling of any adventurous significance. (Granted, I make my shopping excursions adventurous, so that spectrum is very broad indeed.)
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Nexus on April 07, 2015, 08:10:18 PM
Depends on the setting and genre. Some games work well with abstracted wealth, some bean counting seems to be part of the experience (Dungeon Fantasy and RPG Cyberpunk come immediately to mind). In general I lean more towards abstracting wealth though. Its the one kind of abstracted rule that don't usually bother me.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Telarus on April 07, 2015, 11:42:09 PM
I like non-abstracted wealth for individual characters, and abstracted wealth for Company/Organization level statblocks (see Reign). Still trying to figure out the best way to make those play together....
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: flyingmice on April 08, 2015, 01:52:10 AM
Quote from: Bren;824502

I'd rather have more detail and actually track coins, items of value, etc. in a game where accumulating wealth is an object of play or I'd rather have less detail and totally hand wave wealth without the need to track levels.


I don't run games where wealth is an object.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Bren on April 08, 2015, 08:38:03 AM
Quote from: flyingmice;824572
I don't run games where wealth is an object.
Which makes your preference not to track actual coins or other details reasonable. In that sort of game I just go one step farther and don't bother with using or tracking wealth levels at all.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: S'mon on April 08, 2015, 11:12:28 AM
Abstracted wealth is good for genres like superheroes or Cthulu where acquisition of wealth is not a goal.
D&d is best with concrete wealth. My sword &"sorcery 5e game uses the Arneson rule where you get xp for gp *spent* - this avoids the risk of miserly pcs, which is a big problem in gp-for-magic items games.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: cranebump on April 08, 2015, 07:21:35 PM
Depends on the players and system, really. I'll go with what's there. On the whole, though, I prefer a concrete system, rather than an abstraction. I also think that, if I'm gonna play a game about loot, the loot should be, well, loot, rather than a modifier to an abstracted number. For other stuff, like the super hero games I run, well, who gives a damn about that. Wealth is a complete abstraction.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Xavier Onassiss on April 08, 2015, 08:54:55 PM
I just ran across this while reading FATE Core this week, and I must say it's intriguing. I'm running a Savage Worlds game in which wealth isn't really a major issue, and I wonder how hard it would be to adapt such a system to SW.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Justin Alexander on April 09, 2015, 01:37:36 AM
Quote from: tuypo1;824353
as a spinoff to the non coin economy thread what are your thoughts on abstracted wealth rather then measuring your money and buying things for a set price


If the acquisition of treasure is not an immediate goal of the game or setting, I generally prefer an abstract wealth system.

If trade is a major component of play, I can go either way. (Although any abstract system needs to be tied into the trade mechanics enough for the trade to remain meaningful.)
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: nDervish on April 09, 2015, 06:32:04 AM
As an abstraction, I really like abstract wealth systems, since it avoids having to track every copper piece/penny/decicredit/whatever.

Unfortunately, I've never manged to find a concrete example of an abstract wealth system which works for my group and doesn't break down the first time they want to do something out of the ordinary with it.  They frequently also end up being more complex to administer than just tracking every copper piece/penny/decicredit/whatever would have been.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: dbm on April 09, 2015, 08:07:45 AM
In general I prefer abstract systems of wealth or even equipment.  'Preparedness' or 'Resources' as a stat is fine to me.  It allows you to have a character who resolves issues through the application of money or tools / gadgets without getting pulled down into minutia and extensive record keeping.  Same for ammunition.

This doesn't really work for games where the acquisition of wealth is the major focus of the game, however, but since my group don't tend to play campaigns around this it isn't an issue for us.

Gaming time is precious so we like to use it for the stuff we find fun, and tracking coins or arrows doesn't fit within that criteria. YMMV.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Bren on April 09, 2015, 11:59:02 AM
Quote from: nDervish;824841
As an abstraction, I really like abstract wealth systems, since it avoids having to track every copper piece/penny/decicredit/whatever.

Unfortunately, I've never manged to find a concrete example of an abstract wealth system which works for my group and doesn't break down the first time they want to do something out of the ordinary with it.  They frequently also end up being more complex to administer than just tracking every copper piece/penny/decicredit/whatever would have been.
That's pretty much me as well. I spent more time trying to figure out how to use the abstract wealth system in Honor+Intrigue than I would have spent tracking wealth. So I junked the abstract wealth rules and grabbed pricing from other sources - initially I used Black Vulmea's mods of Flashing Blades for pricing.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: soltakss on April 10, 2015, 01:16:22 PM
If you have an income, then abstract wealth works - roll against Wealth with penalties for expensive items, if you succeed you can buy it, if you critical then it doesn't decrease your Wealth, if you fumble then it you cannot buy it as you have run out of money for the month.

If you don't have an income, then Wealth will go down until you find a way to increase it. That's a bit of a pain to work out.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Bren on April 10, 2015, 03:22:52 PM
Increasing wealth is a similar pain.

   GM: You find a chest full of Spanish Doubloons and Pearls.

Players: Yeah! So now we are Rich!?

GM: Yes. Well maybe. Ummm...let me check the wealth table...OK now cross referencing that with your current wealth levels...OK Norbert you go up 2 wealth levels now you are Well Off. Gaston you go up 1 wealth level you are also Well Off. Foul Corsair, 2 levels...

Corsair: But that would mean I am only Poor. Remember I was a galley slave last week.

GM: Right...OK...umm...you go up 3 Wealth Levels to Common.

Guy: What about me?

GM: Let's see...oh...your wealth level doesn't change.

Guy: What? We find a chest full of gold coins and pearls and I'm not any richer. That sucks.

GM: Well you were already Rich...
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Nexus on April 10, 2015, 04:44:10 PM
Quote from: soltakss;825166
If you have an income, then abstract wealth works - roll against Wealth with penalties for expensive items, if you succeed you can buy it, if you critical then it doesn't decrease your Wealth, if you fumble then it you cannot buy it as you have run out of money for the month.

If you don't have an income, then Wealth will go down until you find a way to increase it. That's a bit of a pain to work out.

It can depend on the system. Marvel FASERIP's Resource ranks worked pretty well, for example. A character with no income would have Feeble Rank and have to make fairly difficult rolls for even meager purchases and couldn't make them at all for some. It would represent money the found, borrowed or somehow earned "off camera". If they tried to make too large purchase their resources would drop and could even be exhausted for a time even if the roll was successful.  

Of course there could be circumstances where this might not make sense but that's ging to come up with almost any abstraction. And like others have noted is more suited for a game and premise where finances are a secondary or less concern.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Bren on April 10, 2015, 05:43:35 PM
Quote from: Nexus;825199
Of course there could be circumstances where this might not make sense but that's ging to come up with almost any abstraction. And like others have noted is more suited for a game and premise where finances are a secondary or less concern.
Not so much disagreeing with Nexus as expanding on what they said.

Wealth Levels simplify by tracking wealth as a linear step function (or as a logarithmic step function)instead of as a semi-smooth curve. Thus any cost between Wealth levels either has no effect on the current wealth level or it is equal to an entire wealth level. Dealing with costs of multiple items also gets tricky. How many swords, guns, blasters can the character with Mid Level Wealth buy? One...no problem. Two... yeah that's cool...ten, now things get tricky. Is ten weapons equal to 1 Wealth Level? How about 100 weapons? 1000 weapons? Once you start having to answer questions like that, you might as well dump wealth levels and track smaller increments of wealth like credits, dollars, livres, or gold pieces.

That is why for me, wealth levels only work where wealth is not just a secondary concern, but simply color rather than a concern. A game where the PCs aren't typically going to be gaining wealth in game. Where Wealth Levels go wrong for me is when games include acquiring cash or other loot as an important or motivating activity. Some examples of the various situations:

Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Nexus on April 10, 2015, 05:56:41 PM
Come to think of it, I have to admit that one of the reasons that finances don't come up much in our games is because someone always, if there's any possible way in the system, setting and premise, makes up the equivalent of Scrooge Mcduck, Richie Rich or Billionaire Bruce Wayne then basically takes care of everyone else.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Bren on April 10, 2015, 06:04:06 PM
Quote from: Nexus;825206
Come to think of it, I have to admit that one of the reasons that finances don't come up much in our games is because someone always, if there's any possible way in the system, setting and premise, makes up the equivalent of Scrooge Mcduck, Richie Rich or Billionaire Bruce Wayne then basically takes care of everyone else.
Dilettante has always been a popular background when we play Call of Cthulhu for similar reasons.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Philotomy Jurament on April 10, 2015, 06:51:19 PM
Don't like it in D&D where treasure is XP and fortune and glory is the default goal.

Think it's fine in some other games (e.g., has worked fine for me when running Gold Book BRP).
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: nDervish on April 11, 2015, 06:50:13 AM
Quote from: Bren;825204

  • D&D, Sword & Sorcery generally: Wealth Levels seem to render one of the rationales and points of adventuring moot. Exceptions would be games where the PCs are more like Superheroes than they are like Conan, Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser, or Cugel the Clever.


Definitely agreed that abstract wealth doesn't work very well for D&D, especially in versions which embrace "gp = xp", but broader S&S seems like a good fit, considering how many S&S systems have a "even if you find a mountain of gold and gems this week, you'll have spent it all on wine, women, and song and be flat broke again by next week" concept as at least an optional rule, if not a core rule.

Fafhrd and Cugel are woeful gaps in my background knowledge, but I could see an abstract system working well for Conan - in the stories where he's a thief, he starts with very little; in stories where he's a king, he starts with kingly riches.  In other words, his abstract wealth level determines where he starts each story and any additional riches he picks up or expenses he incurs during the story have no lasting effect.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: Bren on April 11, 2015, 10:32:57 AM
Quote from: nDervish;825284
Definitely agreed that abstract wealth doesn't work very well for D&D, especially in versions which embrace "gp = xp", but broader S&S seems like a good fit, considering how many S&S systems have a "even if you find a mountain of gold and gems this week, you'll have spent it all on wine, women, and song and be flat broke again by next week" concept as at least an optional rule, if not a core rule.

Fafhrd and Cugel are woeful gaps in my background knowledge, but I could see an abstract system working well for Conan - in the stories where he's a thief, he starts with very little; in stories where he's a king, he starts with kingly riches.  In other words, his abstract wealth level determines where he starts each story and any additional riches he picks up or expenses he incurs during the story have no lasting effect.
This: "even if you find a mountain of gold and gems this week, you'll have spent it all on wine, women, and song and be flat broke again by next week" is a good point.

Systems that require spending the GP to get the XP is one solution. I've never used that myself. If the goal is the story driven treatment of wealth that we see in fiction, I think wealth levels is an inelegant way of handling that. I'd prefer just hand waving the changes in wealth. For example:

GM: "So time has passed for your PCs since the last adventure. Your PCs now find themselves in need of new funds. Tell us how your PC spent or squandered their old wealth or why your PC is now in need of funds."

And Fafhrd and Cugel are definitely worth checking out.
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: dbm on April 11, 2015, 11:09:10 AM
Legends of Anglerre (a Fate 3 game) had a pretty good way of handling this. Your Resources skill represents your normal level of wealth. This does tend to represent income, such as an estate or business. You can use it to buy stuff, grease wheels to a certain degree and so on.

If you find monetary wealth in an adventure then this might be a +1 treasure bundle, +2 or better. If you chose to spend the treasure then it adds it's numeric value to your Resources for a roll and is then consumed (the GM may allow you to split a +2 into two +1s and so on).

If you chose to invest the money then it would be a justification for permanently increases your Resources stat.

The rules are a little more complex than this, but that is the core.

It's worth noting that in a game like Fate having permanent ownership of a magic item would probably be represented as aspects, skills or stunts, too. It really isn't intended to model the acquisition of wealth, or the zero to hero transformation you get in DnD games. Characters are intended to start off capable and only change a little over time, both growing and receding in terms of abilities over time (e.g. You spend time focussing on your spelunking and your library studies start to suffer...).
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: tuypo1 on April 13, 2015, 09:37:54 PM
thats why you read while you climb
Title: abstracted wealth
Post by: RPGPundit on April 15, 2015, 02:25:10 AM
Although I've played games that abstracted wealth (most notably Blue Rose), I find that in fantasy RPGs it's never satisfied me.  It's fine if you're not doing something that's serious resource-management; it's even preferable if you're dealing in more modern economics (for example, it's kind of pointless to keep precise track of wealth while playing 20th/21st-century Call of Cthulhu) but for a medieval fantasy setting the question of just how much money you have is important, especially at lower levels.