Quote from: S'mon;746710But Mearls was in charge of Essentials which reduced the emphasis on this approach, and 5e seems to be moving away from it too.

Hey Pundit here's where you come in and mention that years of reading your blog has obviously done Mike some good. :pundit:

or more likely, Mearls has finally convinced WotC to let him follow his deeper motivation, which as Windjammer pointed out, is to please everyone simultaneously.

Which, if he can pull it off, is fine.  I don't give a shit if you can storygame to your heart's content with the rules for 5e.   All that I give a shit about is that the system isn't actively hostile to those who actually want to roleplay with the damn thing.

Quote from: Old Geezer;746430The "Rule For Everything" came from D&D tournament play.  Tournaments had prizes, and quickly got too big for one referee.  The more referees, the more the rules need to be exactly nailed down.

I will also note that I thought the idea of a "D&D Tournament" was stupid the first time I heard it, and I still think it's stupid today.  But the wargames at GenCon had prizes, and when non-wargamers started showing up at GenCon they wanted prizes too.

That does make a screwed up sort of sense. and the tournament modules were a good solution. A con event that was the same no matter where. Like playing any module at a convention really. Except these you could not buy initially?

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;746509Bah. D&D's nothing.

For some reason Kult, a super angsty and atmospheric  horror game about purgatory and the death of God, needs to have special rules for shit like air combat and the effect of carbon monoxide poisoning. Relevant much?

Depends on how often you were locked in a garage with the car engine left running? What about being locked in the garage with the engine running while being attacked by vampire bats? Did this happen often in Kult?

Quote from: ggroy;746619Extensive "rules for everything" will not stop belligerent players and DMs from being complete asshats.

At minimum, "rules for everything" isn't much more than an easy ammunition for such belligerents.

True, a problem player/DM who is JUST a problem player/DM and not a problem over rules interpretation or improvisation is still going to be a problem player/DM no matter how light or heavy the rules are.

Talk with em and failing that. Boot em/Find a new group.

I understand the debate about styles of play, but I don't think you can easily map it onto specific written rules of specific games. The classic examples of 'free form' games generally have ornate rules systems (many of which are traditionally ignored), and the 'rule for everything' games I know of feel just as loosy-goosy as any other game when I've played them at the table. I'm sure there are communities of gamers who are much more free form about their rules use than others, but I think this cultural divide would exist if there were only one game ever published. Actually, my group has always called all games 'D&D'. As in, 'we're playing D&D saturday night, right? What will it be?'; 'Oh, how about Pendragon?'. I own a million game books because I enjoy the collector element of the hobby and it is often fun to see what new people put into their versions of D&D. But they all end up seeming like the same game to me, and they end up being played in the same way at the table.

Quote from: CRKrueger;746770Hey Pundit here's where you come in and mention that years of reading your blog has obviously done Mike some good. :pundit:

Well, it did him good enough to hire me as a Consultant, for starters.

RPGPundit

Quote from: David Johansen;746603Absolutely, killing monsters by leaving the door to the basement open and the car running is right up my alley and if C'thulhu is coming out of the ocean I mean to fill him full of Harpoon missiles before he reaches shore.  But then I always did like Dark Conspiracy.

Yeah... but that would require specific rules for missiles/carbon-monoxide against fallen angels and Cthulhu-monsters... and there aren't any. Just against humans... Rules. For. Everything. Please.

And no, I don't think people-getting-caught-in-garages-with-running-cars was a big thing in Kult. Or any other rpg.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;748143Yeah... but that would require specific rules for missiles/carbon-monoxide against fallen angels and Cthulhu-monsters... and there aren't any. Just against humans... Rules. For. Everything. Please.

And no, I don't think people-getting-caught-in-garages-with-running-cars was a big thing in Kult. Or any other rpg.

I have seen at least two RPGs with rules for CO2 poisoning in them. Cant remember the names though as its been a while. Id be surprised if Gurps doesnt have a rule in there somewhere.

The main question is. Does it fit the setting and gameplay? In say Call of Cthulhu or a detective themed game I could see such rules being usefull. Also any pulp or superhero themed games.

Quote from: Omega;748230The main question is. Does it fit the setting and gameplay? In say Call of Cthulhu or a detective themed game I could see such rules being usefull. Also any pulp or superhero themed games.

Sure, but I still find it hard to imagine a game where carbon monoxide poisoning happens often enough to call for a special rule in the book - but maybe that's just me. But yeah, GURPS probably has it

I'd imagine, that most gm's could make up some sort of ruling on the fly should it pop up in a game of Call/Unknown Armies/OtE/whatnot. Actually, I'm pretty sure that would, to me, be preferable to stopping the game for a "wait... I know that there's a rule for this somewhere in the book.. let me just find it" break.

But I agree that it's all about context and fitting. That's why air combat rules in Robotech is fine by me, but seems silly in Kult.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;748269Sure, but I still find it hard to imagine a game where carbon monoxide poisoning happens often enough to call for a special rule in the book - but maybe that's just me. But yeah, GURPS probably has it

On my dads side of the family were extensive coal miners. I am surprised that there arent more rules in D&D for dungeon and especially mine works.

Sure, if its inhabited and active then its likely well ventilated. But running into areas of bad air in more abandoned mines and dungeons could be a problem. We just used the poison gas rules. Though some of the bad air effects are slower I am told.

I think Dungeoneers Survival Guide has some rules for that. But dont have the book handy.

At one point I was fiddling with writing a Transformers / Demonic invasion set up for Clash's wild Blue rpg where air to air combat would be a major aspect of the game.  The living machines ideas filtered down into Incandescent's White Hot Future and the Shard could be considered demonic though it's simply very high technology.  

In horror games you tend to fight humans and try to work around cosmic entities and fallen angels.  Sure PCs will try crazy schemes but most of the really nasty stuff is pretty immune to petty metabolic hazards.  Which is why GURPS High Tech has rules for shooting propane tanks.

I'm sure GURPS does cover suffocation and poison but I'm not sure which one CO is under.

I've argued for years that all tabletop role-playing games have the same number of rules. Some publish them in books and sell them to the public. And some give players  a framework of rules and expect them to fill in the gaps for the rules that were not published in the game itself. But we all use the same number of rules. I prefer the former to the latter. I want as many rules as reasonably possible to be published and accessible to everyone at the table to use as reference. I think it avoids more problems that way. The latter model expects the GM to adjudicate every 'missing' rule during play. Which leads to inconsistency and endless arguments. Whether we play HERO or Fudge I think we all play with the same number of rules.

Quote from: Tetsubo;748558The latter model expects the GM to adjudicate every 'missing' rule during play. Which leads to inconsistency and endless arguments.

The mantra of the rules-for-everything gamer: everyone at the table is a selfish child waiting to act out.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;748684The mantra of the rules-for-everything gamer: everyone at the table is a selfish child waiting to act out.

Agreed.

Video games are restricted by what the programming allows you to do.
Board games tend to have clear cut rules with optimal strategies.

D&D allows you to do anything.
In my experience, over codification of rules just gets you a pen & paper video game, or a board game.

Human adjudication, on the fly, by a DM seems to be what grants D&D it's unique strength.

I have seen many more arguments over rules obsession than over 'missing' rules.

Who has experienced the reverse?