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Author Topic: A rant on Tasha, 5e, and we are not in OSR-land anymore  (Read 13982 times)

Eric Diaz

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A rant on Tasha, 5e, and we are not in OSR-land anymore
« on: November 28, 2020, 02:03:56 PM »
Just posted this on my blog:

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2020/11/tasha-and-d-5e-is-for-experts-and.html

Will paste the entire thing here because I'm having a hard time pinning down exactly what is bothering me, and I want to hear other people's opinions.

I tried to keep optimistic.

I hope this is allowed and that my rant makes some sense. The original has links to other posts (about railroads and "bad hexcrawls" in 5e).

EDIT: this thread has a similar sentiment, I think.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/just-saw-a-flipthrough-of-tasha-s-big-bucket-of-unearthed-arcana-on-youtube/

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Tasha's Cauldron of Everything is the latest D&B 5e book.

I'm probably skipping this one. And maybe a few more. Here is why.

Hint: is not the reprinting of material I already have (like the Artificer class, which I kinda like).

By the way, this is a bit of a rant. Yo'uve been warned...


Tasha's is mostly a book of players options, from what I've seen. And some new DM toys - magic items, group patrons, etc.

But does anyone NEED more character options?

Well, certainly. WotC is selling well, and 5e is popular.

But how? There are more than 30 subclasses in the PHB, more than a dozen races and subraces*, and other customization options (feats, spells, items, fighting styles, backgrounds, etc.). My players haven't tried nearly half of that, nor are they willing to change class and race at every game. Books like Xanathar's and Volo's expand their options significantly, and, to be honest, I let them use whatever race they find on the internet with some adaptations.

(* If you're not familiar with 5e, it is worth mentioning that decent class/race combinations are a lot more numerable nowadays - which I like).

In fact, I have the opposite problem - the amount of choice feels overwhelming for me as a DM, and the players get lost.

Well, more choice is always good. But to require more choice at this point you'd have to be some kind of expert 5e player, haven played dozens of campaigns so far, to at have at least TRIED some of these options for half a dozen levels. None of my players have... nor have I.

The alternative would be someone deep into character optimization and theory-crafting... People who have fun creating mechanically cool characters. And that's is fine, but not our cup of tea. It is also not role-playing. Role-playing begins when the game starts.

On the other hand... Tasha contains some REALLY basic-level stuff. Things like "what is session zero", "you can actually TALK to monsters before killing them", or "you know, if your elf character was raised by dwarves, you could give him proficiency with battleaxes instead of longswords (two nearly identical weapons, BTW)". I'm paraphrasing here, of course.

Do you notice something strange?

How can people play through dozens of campaigns without knowing what a "session zero" is... or realizing they can make their own rules and create their own stuff? It is in the DMG, after all!

When 5e was released, I thought it had a decent amount of crunch... too much for my taste, but not enough to overwhelm me. I got excited with the idea of having an "OSR inspired" D&D being the most popular RPG around!

But mainstream D&D seems to be going in a strange direction... where people are familiar with dozens of "official" builds but are shy to change the rules. Where everyone knows who Volo is, but the idea of a pointcrawl is a complete mystery, hexcrawls are misunderstood, and lots of railroading is acceptable. Where beholders are common but the ideas on spells are still catching up to DCC RPG.

I'm not sure how to put that... but 5e has become too "official". It feels like it is written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else. Something very specialized... maybe comparable to a decent chef who cooks nothing but good pizza.

There is enough 5e homebrew stuff online for me to know 5e players can be very creative, BTW. Maybe it is a matter of focus. Should we focus on creating new spells, or making magic more interesting? And so on.

And I know this sounds like a criticism of 5e, but it is not. D&D 5e is one of my favorite RPGs EVER. Certainly in the top 10.

Maybe it is just this book that is not for me.

Or maybe it is me - I like lighter systems, rulings over rules, "minimalism", etc. Perhaps I'm a minority among 5e players. I... I have more books than time by this point. Maybe that's just my age speaking.

On the other hand... maybe I should have seen this coming, as many people might have noticed before me.

Anyway, I'm not giving up on 5e yet.

I would buy a new campaign (maybe Icewind Dale...), but please, make it easier to run and less railroad-y. I am tired of having to go to The Alexandrian or to the DM's Guild to fix things.

By the way, that's is WHY I still play a lot of 5e: I know that if I find something I disliked, it is very easy to find someone who "fixed" it online, usually for free. It is just the amount of information I have to deal with that is overwhelming.

Oh, and apparently they fixed the beastmaster ranger. Yay!
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 02:07:22 PM by Eric Diaz »
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HappyDaze

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Re: A rant on Tasha, 5e, and we are not in OSR-land anymore
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2020, 02:11:43 PM »

I'm not sure how to put that... but 5e has become too "official". It feels like it is written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else. Something very specialized... maybe comparable to a decent chef who cooks nothing but good pizza.

While D&D 5e has said it goes with "rulings, not rules" and that it can be "everyone's D&D," it seems to be going farther and farther into "there is one true way, and that way better match our organized play rules" with every year. As for it being "written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else," well...that's what they want to be true, so if they keep repeating it long enough, maybe it will be true in the next generation of gamers.

Eric Diaz

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Re: A rant on Tasha, 5e, and we are not in OSR-land anymore
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2020, 02:16:50 PM »
As for it being "written for people who only know and play D&D 5e and nothing else," well...that's what they want to be true, so if they keep repeating it long enough, maybe it will be true in the next generation of gamers.

I'm not sure man. I've been getting the feeling we are a minority among 5e players.
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Mercurius

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Re: A rant on Tasha, 5e, and we are not in OSR-land anymore
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2020, 03:18:48 PM »
If you have a problem with 5E's approach, I'm guessing you didn't much like 4E, or 3E for that matter. 5E actually de-tangled itself (somewhat) from rulings over rules, if only through having a lighter rules system. It isn't quite OSR, but a lot of folks who didn't like the "new school" of 3E/4E, liked 5E enough to rejoin the fold. Some folks (such as myself) like and use the 5E rules, but port over stuff from different places, be it actual TSR stuff, OSR stuff like Hyperborea, or "retro-vibeish" games like Forbidden Lands.

I'm also not picking up Tasha's, mostly because it doesn't strike me as a book I "need" to won, especially considering that I'm not actively playing right now, and even if and when I start a campaign up again (planned, but delayed by Covid), I probably won't need it for awhile as there are plenty of options for players in the PHB and Xanathar's.

Tasha's is just another toolkit. Even the whole separation of ability bonuses and races thing, while some are complaining that it smacks of wokism, it is--as far as impact at the game table--just another variant approach that individual groups have freedom to embrace (or not). Meaning, it doesn't enforce anything or take anything away, just provides more options. Similarly with everything else. None of it is required.

And it is hardly the case that WotC is glutting the market with splats. They publish 4-5 hardcovers a year, 1-2 of which are adventures, 1-2 settings, and 1 rules supplement of some kind, usually monsters of players options. This is the first players options book since Xanathar's in 2017, so one new such book every few years isn't overwhelming, especially when they are optional.

So my suggestion is that the whole enforcement of one true way to play is largely a mirage. Even if WotC is getting behind wokism and advocating for a more woke approach, there is still the freedom to make the game you want with the 5E rules. You don't have to change the way you want to play or use books and rules you don't want to use.

Now if they publish a revised set of rulebooks in 2024 with the 50th anniversary that change the default significantly, which is possible, that will be a different matter, although the same basic idea will hold true: D&D, and RPGs in general, are infinitely customizable and can be played however we want to play them.

Eric Diaz

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Re: A rant on Tasha, 5e, and we are not in OSR-land anymore
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2020, 03:35:28 PM »
If you have a problem with 5E's approach, I'm guessing you didn't much like 4E, or 3E for that matter. 5E actually de-tangled itself (somewhat) from rulings over rules, if only through having a lighter rules system. It isn't quite OSR, but a lot of folks who didn't like the "new school" of 3E/4E, liked 5E enough to rejoin the fold. Some folks (such as myself) like and use the 5E rules, but port over stuff from different places, be it actual TSR stuff, OSR stuff like Hyperborea, or "retro-vibeish" games like Forbidden Lands.

You are right. I didn't much like 4E, or 3E for that matter, and like you I "rejoined the fold" with 5e... kinda.

And yes, I am running a SIGNIFICANTLY simplified 5e at this point.


I'm also not picking up Tasha's, mostly because it doesn't strike me as a book I "need" to won, especially considering that I'm not actively playing right now, and even if and when I start a campaign up again (planned, but delayed by Covid), I probably won't need it for awhile as there are plenty of options for players in the PHB and Xanathar's.

Tasha's is just another toolkit. Even the whole separation of ability bonuses and races thing, while some are complaining that it smacks of wokism, it is--as far as impact at the game table--just another variant approach that individual groups have freedom to embrace (or not). Meaning, it doesn't enforce anything or take anything away, just provides more options. Similarly with everything else. None of it is required.

And it is hardly the case that WotC is glutting the market with splats. They publish 4-5 hardcovers a year, 1-2 of which are adventures, 1-2 settings, and 1 rules supplement of some kind, usually monsters of players options. This is the first players options book since Xanathar's in 2017, so one new such book every few years isn't overwhelming, especially when they are optional.

So my suggestion is that the whole enforcement of one true way to play is largely a mirage. Even if WotC is getting behind wokism and advocating for a more woke approach, there is still the freedom to make the game you want with the 5E rules. You don't have to change the way you want to play or use books and rules you don't want to use.

Now if they publish a revised set of rulebooks in 2024 with the 50th anniversary that change the default significantly, which is possible, that will be a different matter, although the same basic idea will hold true: D&D, and RPGs in general, are infinitely customizable and can be played however we want to play them.

I'm not that concerned with "woke" stuff, since I don't learn politics (or economics etc.) from role-playing games. What bothers me is the idea that someone would need WotC's authorization to change stuff around (or, worse, would need an "official" printed book to say that).

You make a great point about the number of books they publish... Yeah, we had nothing like that since Xanathar's, and I'm glad they are publishing adventures.

I also agree there is not "one true way", but it bothers me to think of people never bothering to read any other RPGs except 5e.

Especially if they are publishers, I guess.
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Mercurius

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Re: A rant on Tasha, 5e, and we are not in OSR-land anymore
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2020, 03:40:54 PM »
One more thing. I don't know how old you are, but the cold, hard truth is that a lot of folks who are getting the feeling of "This game isn't being marketed to me anymore" tend to be Gen Xers (40s-50s), with the stray Boomer (60+) still holding onto his tattered copy of the Efreet DMG, grunting "From my cold, dead hands!" Meaning, if that's how you feel, well, you're justified, because it is true. WotC still wants you to buy their books, but you're not their primary market.

The bulk of 5E players are now Millenials or Z, and WotC is adjusting to that. They don't really need to cater to us anymore. Sure, a best-case scenario for them is that everyone is happily playing D&D, but the player base has gotten so much larger--and younger--over the last six years, that they no longer have to appease grognards to profit, because Gen Xers and Boomers make up a much smaller fraction of the market than they did even a decade ago.

And more to the point: WotC's biggest concern is growth. While you might get the occasional Gen Xer running across an article about D&D in Salon, thinking, "Hey, I used to play that in college!" and dusting off their old polyhedrals, the number of older players remains relatively stable and isn't where potential growth is, which is younger folks. And, well, Millenials are simply more woke, so WotC is taking that demographic seriously (aside from their personal socio-political views). Gen Zers...well, it remains to be seen as the oldest cohort are only now in high school.

All that said, I'm not as pessimistic as some in this forum in that I think the pendulum will swing back. A bit, at least. The current woke cancellation trend will eventually simmer down, just like the Satanic Panic of the 80s quieted (or at least became marginalized and not taken seriously). But unlike the Satanic Panic, there is actually a positive element to wokism in that it does ultimately want to make D&D more inclusive, just in an extremist and over-the-top way. But as these woke warriors mature, they might relax a bit and realize that fantasy orcs aren't black people, and killing things and taking their stuff isn't tantamount to distributing small pox blankets to Native Americans.

Ghost Planet

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Re: A rant on Tasha, 5e, and we are not in OSR-land anymore
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2020, 03:44:53 PM »
I lived in a college town until recently, and many of the college age kids I encountered had only ever played 5e. Furthermore many of them, when asked if they had tried any other rpgs, would answer to the affect of "Like a sci-fi game?"

There is a large influx of new players in the last couple years and many of them have not matured enough as a gamer to branch out yet, especially when all the other gamers they know are also playing 5e, or they were exposed by something like Critical Role.

Lastly, these kids do NOT play 5e with any OSR sensibilities. It is almost always a straight up Superhero Soap Opera.

Chris24601

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Re: A rant on Tasha, 5e, and we are not in OSR-land anymore
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2020, 03:46:07 PM »
I think someone in another thread summed 5e up best; that it is the McDonalds of RPGs in every sense (good and bad). It’s okay, but not great, food that’s readily available everywhere with a menu just broad enough that you can get everyone to agree to go there if there’s not a strong vote for something else.

And because it’s so ubiquitous, it’s also a really good floor... if your food can’t measure up to McDonalds fair there’s no point in even being in business.

The problem is that D&D doesn’t just want to be a floor; it wants to be the ceiling. It doesn’t want you going down the street to that Mom & Pop joint that charges a little extra and their fries are nothing special, but makes their patties fresh, char-grills them and tops them with real cheese, fresh leaf lettuce, tomatoes and red onions.

So it does everything it can to convince their customers to never even look beyond those Golden Arches; constant ads, billboards, ever changing deals to make you feel like there’s always something new... why go and try that Mom & Pop place down the road when there’s always some new deal to try at McDonalds?

That’s 5e in a nutshell; the 800 pound soulless corporate gorilla of RPGs doing everything it can to keep their audience from noticing any alternatives.

And why it’s not working for you is that you’re aware enough of other alternatives to realize that they’re not really selling a game/food anymore. They’re selling a “lifestyle brand” where the goal is to just keep you on the hook and not even seeing that alternatives are out there.


Mercurius

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Re: A rant on Tasha, 5e, and we are not in OSR-land anymore
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2020, 03:48:49 PM »
I'm not that concerned with "woke" stuff, since I don't learn politics (or economics etc.) from role-playing games. What bothers me is the idea that someone would need WotC's authorization to change stuff around (or, worse, would need an "official" printed book to say that).

You make a great point about the number of books they publish... Yeah, we had nothing like that since Xanathar's, and I'm glad they are publishing adventures.

I also agree there is not "one true way", but it bothers me to think of people never bothering to read any other RPGs except 5e.

Especially if they are publishers, I guess.

Maybe ignore my second post, then. It will be hard to avoid the woke issue on this forum ;).

Anyhow, I hear you. It also bothers--or at least, baffles--me. I think it is a carry-over from 3E and 4E days (in different ways) in which the rules systems were so complex and tightly bound that it was harder to diverge and customize. Also, I think the increasing role of the internet and online discourse over the last 25+ years is a major factor: we're more aware how everyone else is playing, so there is more debate about how it "should" be done.

But it isn't only younger players who have this adherence to RAW and the default mode in the rulebooks, whether rules or lore. Even in a place like ENW, which is mainly inhabited by older folks, there are endless discussions which simmer down to what the default of the game lore should be.

While we can always play the game as we want it, I do understand why it matters to some what the official version of the game states. But in a way, caring too much is just a corollary to adhering to RAW.

Ghost Planet

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Re: A rant on Tasha, 5e, and we are not in OSR-land anymore
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2020, 04:10:30 PM »
I think someone in another thread summed 5e up best; that it is the McDonalds of RPGs in every sense (good and bad). It’s okay, but not great, food that’s readily available everywhere with a menu just broad enough that you can get everyone to agree to go there if there’s not a strong vote for something else.

I definitely agree with this, when I first moved my group to DCC and then eventually BX a few years ago this is one of the main discussions we had, only we used the Marvel Movies as our example.

They need to hit the widest possible audience, and be just good enough that if you don't really have a strong preference it is easier just to stick with 5e.
However, they don't do the 2 styles of play my group usually sticks to particularly well: those being Super Crunchy Battle Titans (Where they want all the splat books to make the most ridiculous characters they can) or OSR Dudes in Dungeon.

Between the characters being just a little bit to powerful by mid levels for really solid OSR play, and not having enough crazy crunch to let you do dumb 3.x stuff it is likely to leave you in this bland middle zone.

Because of how I have seen other run 5e, and Critical Roles huge influence I have taken to calling this style of play Supes & Soaps.
People seem to want to focus on having these narrative focused stories that revolve around their characters, but also want some sluggem out combats (where they always win of course). It is a lot like a comic book.

Now if that's the kinda game you want to play then 5e seems to be great for that. But If I want to be Conan, or a buncha dudes trying to make it rich in a dungeon, or play it like we are all badass anime characters 5e can't do any of those particularly well.

TJS

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Re: A rant on Tasha, 5e, and we are not in OSR-land anymore
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2020, 04:29:37 PM »
I agree with the OP.  I said something similar in the other thread.

I think the game and the 5E community have been going in the wrong direction - which wouldn't matter so much but if feels at time so predominant that it's strangling everything else around it.

Mercurius

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Re: A rant on Tasha, 5e, and we are not in OSR-land anymore
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2020, 04:32:13 PM »
The McDonalds analogy is...limited. I mean, I get that 5E appeals to a wide range of people while not appealing to any one group or style as well as any number of other games. But McDonalds is crap. It is lowest common denominator junk food. 5E is, at least, well designed and incorporates bits and pieces from (when it first came out) four decades of game development.

If we must stick to fast food chains, I think Chipotle or Five Guys is a better analogy. Both are good for fast food, but you can get a better burrito or burger elsewhere, especially if you know how to cook. But the vast majority of people will like Chipotle or Five Guys just fine.

The OSR critique seems to often boil down to: "But it isn't barbeque! I want barbeque, and anything other than barbeque is crap!" 5E has barbeque sauce, but doesn't actually barbeque the food.

Eric Diaz

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Re: A rant on Tasha, 5e, and we are not in OSR-land anymore
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2020, 04:54:50 PM »
McDonalds is a good analogy, I think, but what I'm trying to express does not have much to do with quality... it is more like ubiquity + ignorance. How people can be experts in 5e without ever hearing about DCC (or CoC or GURPS for that matter). And, look, I cannot say any of those games are 100% better than 5e. I just think it is incredibly USEFUL to learn about RPGs, not only 5e D&D.

Heck, even reading Moldvay's Basic - a 50ish-page book - sounds infinitely more useful than getting a 200+ page book with new ideas on how to use your bonus action. If you want something more current, Shadow of the Demon Lord, DCC RPG...

The campaigns bother me the most, because I tried running them, and it is a hassle. While the character options are somewhat balanced and play-test (but yes, there is some power creep and caster supremacy gets worse and worse), there are essential parts of the campaigns that have obvious mistakes (railroading, misunderstanding hexcrawls, etc.). But, I mean, people are still running them and enjoying, so...

EDIT: here is another analogy: a body-builder with strong arms who refuses to train his legs... ever. Nice arms, but training your legs would be really helpful overall.

I'm not that concerned with "woke" stuff, since I don't learn politics (or economics etc.) from role-playing games. What bothers me is the idea that someone would need WotC's authorization to change stuff around (or, worse, would need an "official" printed book to say that).

You make a great point about the number of books they publish... Yeah, we had nothing like that since Xanathar's, and I'm glad they are publishing adventures.

I also agree there is not "one true way", but it bothers me to think of people never bothering to read any other RPGs except 5e.

Especially if they are publishers, I guess.

Maybe ignore my second post, then. It will be hard to avoid the woke issue on this forum ;).

Anyhow, I hear you. It also bothers--or at least, baffles--me. I think it is a carry-over from 3E and 4E days (in different ways) in which the rules systems were so complex and tightly bound that it was harder to diverge and customize. Also, I think the increasing role of the internet and online discourse over the last 25+ years is a major factor: we're more aware how everyone else is playing, so there is more debate about how it "should" be done.

But it isn't only younger players who have this adherence to RAW and the default mode in the rulebooks, whether rules or lore. Even in a place like ENW, which is mainly inhabited by older folks, there are endless discussions which simmer down to what the default of the game lore should be.

While we can always play the game as we want it, I do understand why it matters to some what the official version of the game states. But in a way, caring too much is just a corollary to adhering to RAW.

You make some good points (in your other posts too, I'll avoid endless quotations).

Definitely 5e is aimed at younger folks at this point (although I'm not a true grognard; I played some Black Box and 2E, but never really "got" 3e, disliked 4e, and only really "dove" into D&D with OSR and 5e).

But yeah, people will defend AD&D being a very simple game with the same ferocity that 5e when I say any of the two have unnecessary rules.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 04:59:15 PM by Eric Diaz »
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Ghost Planet

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Re: A rant on Tasha, 5e, and we are not in OSR-land anymore
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2020, 04:58:05 PM »
The McDonalds analogy is...limited. I mean, I get that 5E appeals to a wide range of people while not appealing to any one group or style as well as any number of other games. But McDonalds is crap. It is lowest common denominator junk food. 5E is, at least, well designed and incorporates bits and pieces from (when it first came out) four decades of game development.

I don't think either Chris or I were really zoning on on the quality of McDonalds specifically, it is just the go to representation of fast food. If you want to replace McDonalds, with Five Guys, that works.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 05:00:11 PM by Ghost Planet »

Eric Diaz

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Re: A rant on Tasha, 5e, and we are not in OSR-land anymore
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2020, 05:05:23 PM »
I think the game and the 5E community have been going in the wrong direction - which wouldn't matter so much but if feels at time so predominant that it's strangling everything else around it.

Yeah, that's how I feel too.

The McDonalds analogy is...limited. I mean, I get that 5E appeals to a wide range of people while not appealing to any one group or style as well as any number of other games. But McDonalds is crap. It is lowest common denominator junk food. 5E is, at least, well designed and incorporates bits and pieces from (when it first came out) four decades of game development.

I don't think either Chris or I were really zoning on on the quality of McDonalds specifically, it is just the go to representation of fast food. If you want to replace McDonalds, with Five Guys, that works.

TBH I barely knew Five Guys until a couple of years ago, so I like the McDonalds analogy, but I get what you're saying.

Maybe something like a "Starbucks barista" would fit: that guy who loves Starbucks and knows every detail of the menu, but refuses to try other types of coffee (TBH, I'm not an expert, maybe Starbucks is trash too).
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