Quote from: boulet;396426Clash wins the thread

Another one? Where am I going to put it? If I don't box it up I'm going to have to dust it too - my wife won't touch them! They're all stacked in the back room like firewood. :O

-clash

What can I say? Stop being a smartass for Pete's sake!

Quote from: flyingmice;396424Actually, what I find ridiculous - and have ever since I first saw it in D&D, is calling a species a "race". I jarred then, and it jars today.

-clash

No, I think you might have it backwards.
 Its we humans that use the word 'race' strangely here on modern-day Earth.
 The weird current usage probably evolved out of a bigoted reason or two over a century ago.

 There is only ONE race on Earth right now - the Human race. The strange usage is seperating out different cultuyres, minority groups, and sub-cultures and calling them seperate 'races'.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;396327Not 'dogs' , Wolves.

They're very touchy about that.

No.

First, dogs and wolves are, arguably, the same species.  They're the same genera, and though they're often assigned separate species, the former is directly -- and recently, through human intervention -- derived from the latter.

Second, Vargr are not wolves.  They're canids, in the same way that all of Humaniti are anthropoids.  Calling a Vargr a "dog" or a "wolf" would be akin to calling a human either an "ape" or a "monkey" -- they probably wouldn't take kindly to it, even if they acknowledged the genetic link.

Third, and finally, as a result of alien genetic intervention, the Vargr have been effectively severed from the canine evolutionary tree.  It's as if a cutting was taken from the tree, grafted onto different root stock, then transplanted elsewhere -- it's a separate tree now.  The same goes for many of the branches of Humaniti in Traveller as well.

Quote from: Silverlion;396332At least it isn't Transhuman Space's catgirls!

Foul.  THS catgirls are genetically engineered constructs, not a self-perpetuating species.  That said, er...yeah.

!i!

Quote from: boulet;396436What can I say? Stop being a smartass for Pete's sake!

I gotta be me!

-clash

Quote from: Ian Absentia;396446No.

First, dogs and wolves are, arguably, the same species.  They're the same genera, and though they're often assigned separate species, the former is directly -- and recently, through human intervention -- derived from the latter.

Second, Vargr are not wolves.  They're canids, in the same way that all of Humaniti are anthropoids.  Calling a Vargr a "dog" or a "wolf" would be akin to calling a human either an "ape" or a "monkey" -- they probably wouldn't take kindly to it, even if they acknowledged the genetic link.

Third, and finally, as a result of alien genetic intervention, the Vargr have been effectively severed from the canine evolutionary tree.  It's as if a cutting was taken from the tree, grafted onto different root stock, then transplanted elsewhere -- it's a separate tree now.  The same goes for many of the branches of Humaniti in Traveller as well.
!i!

Ahhh...thanks for the clarification all...Vargr still look silly in clothes though.

Off Topic question: Are there any games/setting books based on David Brin's "Uplift" universe?This seems to be a REALLY cool setting!

Quote from: skofflox;396461Ahhh...thanks for the clarification all...Vargr still look silly in clothes though.

I took that all too seriously.  Thank you for being generous.  I've always had a soft spot for the Vargr, and in my own "tangential" Third Imperium setting, I've made them the result of human uplift, not Ancient intervention (which does, in fact, make them descended directly from Canis lupus familiaris).

QuoteOff Topic question: Are there any games/setting books based on David Brin's "Uplift" universe?This seems to be a REALLY cool setting!

There was a GURPS supplement some years back, which might be interesting for a view of the "Uplift" universe from a gaming perspective.  I think that just about any sci-fi RPG could handle the setting adequately -- the GM just needs a sort of encyclopedia and gazeteer to figure out who's who (and when's when -- the series span a few centuries).*

In my opinion, the notion of interstellar uplift is about the only thing that makes multitudes of aliens not seem ridiculous.  A single alien race achieves interstellar travel, finds no other intelligent life out there, so they begin to tinker with life forms native to other worlds, bringing them up to sentience.  The newly-sentient beings are then also taught to do the same thing, traveling the galaxy to uplift other non-sentient life forms.

!i!

[*Edit: Hey, ask and ye shall receive! Contacting Aliens: An Illustrated Guide to David Brin's Uplift Universe.]

Quote from: Ian Absentia;396465I took that all too seriously.  Thank you for being generous.  I've always had a soft spot for the Vargr, and in my own "tangential" Third Imperium setting, I've made them the result of human uplift, not Ancient intervention (which does, in fact, make them descended directly from Canis lupus familiaris).There was a GURPS supplement some years back, which might be interesting for a view of the "Uplift" universe from a gaming perspective.  I think that just about any sci-fi RPG could handle the setting adequately -- the GM just needs a sort of encyclopedia and gazeteer to figure out who's who (and when's when -- the series span a few centuries).*

In my opinion, the notion of interstellar uplift is about the only thing that makes multitudes of aliens not seem ridiculous.  A single alien race achieves interstellar travel, finds no other intelligent life out there, so they begin to tinker with life forms native to other worlds, bringing them up to sentience.  The newly-sentient beings are then also taught to do the same thing, traveling the galaxy to uplift other non-sentient life forms.

!i!

[*Edit: Hey, ask and ye shall receive! Contacting Aliens: An Illustrated Guide to David Brin's Uplift Universe.]

Thank you very much! :hatsoff: Cool book...:cool:
I concur with your concluding statements. "Uplift" is one of the most plausible scenarios for a multitude of starfaring beings. And it is one hell of a setting! With all the political machination,who is beholden to whom, the continual search for client species and the question of the Ancients...super cool man! Will keep on the look-out for the GURPS sup.

now back to your regularly scheduled thread...

Quote from: Koltar;396441No, I think you might have it backwards.
 Its we humans that use the word 'race' strangely here on modern-day Earth.
 The weird current usage probably evolved out of a bigoted reason or two over a century ago.

 There is only ONE race on Earth right now - the Human race. The strange usage is seperating out different cultuyres, minority groups, and sub-cultures and calling them seperate 'races'.


- Ed C.

Not, Ed. From Dictionary.com:


race(2)    /reɪs/ Show Spelled[reys] Show IPA
–noun
1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
2. a population so related.
3. Anthropology .
 a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.
 b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.
 c. a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.
4. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock: the Slavic race.
5. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.
6. the human race or family; humankind: Nuclear weapons pose a threat to the race.
7. Zoology . a variety; subspecies.
8. a natural kind of living creature: the race of fishes.
9. any group, class, or kind, esp. of persons: Journalists are an interesting race.
10. the characteristic taste or flavor of wine.

–adjective
11. of or pertaining to the races of humankind.
Origin:
1490–1500;  < F < It razza,  of obscure orig.

—Synonyms
1.  tribe, clan, family, stock, line, breed. Race, people, nation  are terms for a large body of persons who may be thought of as a unit because of common characteristics. In the traditional biological and anthropological systems of classification race  refers to a group of persons who share such genetically transmitted traits as skin color, hair texture, and eye shape or color: the white race; the yellow race.  In reference to classifying the human species, race  is now under dispute among modern biologists and anthropologists. Some feel that the term has no biological validity; others use it to specify only a partially isolated reproductive population whose members share a considerable degree of genetic similarity. In certain broader or less technical senses race  is sometimes used interchangeably with people. People  refers to a body of persons united usually by common interests, ideals, or culture but sometimes also by a common history, language, or ethnic character: We are one people; the peoples of the world; the Swedish people. Nation  refers to a body of persons living under an organized government or rule, occupying a defined area, and acting as a unit in matters of peace and war: the English nation.

Meaning 6 (your meaning) is clearly not not the main or original meaning. Overwhelmingly, the word meaning is divisive and categorical, not inclusive.

-clash

The distinction, AFAIK, is that two species cannot interbreed (Lizardmen and Humans, for example), while two races can interbreed (Humans and Orcs). Races are a sub-class of species.

So, for Humanity, (In a generic fantasy game), we might have:

Humans - Species
    Men - Race
    Elves - Race
    Orcs - Race

Dwarven - Species
    Dwarves - Race
    Halflings - Race
    Gnomes - Race

Lizardians - Species
    Lizardmen - Race
    Kobolds - Race


Quote from: flyingmice;396424Actually, what I find ridiculous - and have ever since I first saw it in D&D, is calling a species a "race". I jarred then, and it jars today.

-clash

Hell yes!

Quote from: Koltar;396441No, I think you might have it backwards.
 Its we humans that use the word 'race' strangely here on modern-day Earth.
 The weird current usage probably evolved out of a bigoted reason or two over a century ago.

 There is only ONE race on Earth right now - the Human race. The strange usage is seperating out different cultuyres, minority groups, and sub-cultures and calling them seperate 'races'.


- Ed C.

You can believe, or not, in the existence of races among humans, but humans are not a race, humans are a species.

And dictionaries are immune somehow to the biases and prejudices of the individuals and that write them ?

The human race is...well The Human Race.

Any other definition or hair-splitting is just falling into a trap of semantics that was set by people who died before we were born. They had a stake in people not getting along with each. They didn't want people to know much they had in common - so use the language to be divisive. Doesn't mean we in the present have to.


- Ed C.

Quote from: RPGPundit;395966Runequest has its famous Duck-men... the question is whether there's a major race of a known RPG world that you consider more ridiculous than the duck men?

RPGPundit

Actually as a long time lover of the USA series "Duckman" I can say that a race of duckmen could be entertaining.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duckman

Hmm, you know a duckman rpg could be good, and duckman would make a good NPC...

Now, as to utterly ridiculous, there were the duck cylons:

http://www.clubdesmonstres.com/best/img/starodyssey4.jpg

I don't think anyone's put them in a game yet, though.

 Now since there's a new DR. who RPG, it means that there have to be rules for playing these:

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/File:Untitled-77.jpg

Quote from: Koltar;396524And dictionaries are immune somehow to the biases and prejudices of the individuals and that write them ?

The human race is...well The Human Race.

Any other definition or hair-splitting is just falling into a trap of semantics that was set by people who died before we were born. They had a stake in people not getting along with each. They didn't want people to know much they had in common - so use the language to be divisive. Doesn't mean we in the present have to.


- Ed C.

And somehow you are immune to dictionaries. Ed - I'm a writer. A professional writer, making a good living from writing. I love words - they are creatures of joy and beauty to me. You do not determine what words mean. They gain their meaning due to general consensus. In other words, it doesn't really matter what you want, what matters is what everyone else wants. Words are created as tools to communication. If everyone is allowed to define their own private meaning, not much is going to get communicated. So you are just flat wrong. Believe the dictionary - it's not trying to lie to you.

Claudius is exactly correct - humans are a species, Homo Sapiens Sapiens, not a race, and what you would prefer to be true has no bearing on the matter. I'm not going to argue this because it is beyond argument. If you refuse to accept reality, then just babble on and I will ignore you - I will ignore you because I will know that you are not interested in communicating, but only in indulging some strange verbal wish fulfillment.

-clash