Quote from: BedrockBrendan;670589The conversation is veering far from RPGs. This forum is for discussions about roleplaying games, not politics.

Agreed.

I'm not very informed about the Warhammer 40K universe but I was under the impression that it was pretty egalitarian as far as humans went. Pretty much everyone was miserable. Men, women, different ethnicities (such as they'd exist 40,000 years in the future?) weren't persecuted and great discriminated against as a matter of imperial policy (different worlds might have different problems as might be expected) except for things like Space Marines and Sisters of Battle but those were due to technological reasons and ideology/spirituality (the Sisters are the "brides of the Emperor or something) rather than endemic sexism.

Bigotry and hatred of aliens, mutants and such was part of the point of the setting and, possibly justified, all things given.

I'm of the opinion that if someone wants a more inclusive facist grimdark setting, they can go ahead and make one themselves. Kickstart it.

I love 40k, but I don't think a "more inclusive" setting is a terrible idea for a home campaign if that's what makes some gamers happy. Since Rogue Trader, it was common to have games where Eldar + IG or Eldar + Space Marines teamed up against Chaos, Orks, Tyranid, etc, just like in Warhammer Fantasy, we've played Dwarfs + Wood Elves vs. Chaos + Undead just so we could mix and match armies with Good vs. Evil sides. So there is plenty of precedent among minis wargamers for a more inclusive 40k.

As for me, I make my 40k RPGs as grimdark as possible because that's where i find the awesome and the humor of the setting. Our Earth fascists ain't got nothing on the Emperor of Mankind. He drinks teenage souls so his bureaucrats can make phone calls across space.

I do agree there should be more female IG figures. I can't see the Empire really caring what gender carries a lasgun into the meatgrinder of forever war.

I don't think the Imperium gives a damn about what kind of junk soldiers have. Can they fight and die for the Emperor/Earth is all that matter. The fact that most of the illustration are male, well, I'd say that stems for the general dislike of seeing females mowed down/slaughtered/horribly threatened in western society (I hesitate to say human nature...). Most illustrations depicting mass combat, mook squads, etc show them as mostly if not all men (even in "progressive" games like Exalted...). Its a reflexive thing, IMO.

Edit: And for the record, I'm perfectly fine with Space Marines being men only. It gives them a certain feel and, for my group, at least. its not a big deal. If the women wanted to play Space Marines they'd play a guy (Like it really matters much...) and there'd be some male players that wouldn't find them very appealing to play because they prefer female PCs. There are institutions and groups that are restricted to female PCs (has there been any bitching about them?) anyway. It's not that "woman can't play" its "No one can play" this certain character concept (which in all honesty seems kind of dull to me). If someone wants to change that in their own games, that's cool. I'm all for house rules and there isn't a setting Ive gm'ed that I haven't modified in some fashion. But, in this case, I'm all right with canon.

Quote from: Spinachcat;670856I do agree there should be more female IG figures. I can't see the Empire really caring what gender carries a lasgun into the meatgrinder of forever war.

I personally prefer my Imperium to have more sexism in it. Patriarchal traditions and attitudes, gender roles, largely male soldiers, men usually in positions of power, and so on.

I once would think "Hoorray" to the idea of a more inclusive 40K.
However, it went the other way.

Facts is, several people do not understand satire or irony, but instead endorses the exact same things that are satirized.

Question is, is the hobby even able to take any responsibility for that?
The hobby is clearly not responsible, so why would it claim responsibility?

Well, a doctor do not claim responsibility over the wounds and sicknesses they are treating, but they do claim responsibility over helping the wounded and the sick back to health.
But the hobby do not consist of doctors ...

Then one might also argue if a more inclusive 40K really would help?
Essentially, the original Rogue Trader was more inclusive, but it was also very much like a kind of Wild West or simply very disorganized.
However, i doubt the ones wanting inclusivness in 40K wants to bring back the Squats or the Imperial Guard - enlisted Beastmen.

I dislike severely the fashistoid parts of 40K, and made my own version of "Space Marines", and dubbed them Astra Force more than 15 years ago.
They do of course not exist in 40K, but in a different world.
However, i still find the jokes surrounding 40K, like the de-motivational posters and such entertaining.

Essentilally, would a more inclusive 40K help with the fact that too many can't understand satire?
No.

Is to want a more inclusive 40K to miss the point?
Not neccesarily, some of it may easily fit into an oldschool-like movement, and some inclusiveness may work within the setting.
However, only some.
One may have to, in the current definition, stretch the setting to the breaking point to allow for female-looking (non-chaos) Space Marines.
Essentially, it somehow would get more serious, part of the satire would vanish.
... Or would it?

Practically, i'm ambivalent on the matter.

On the one hand, why should it matter.  Billions with a B of imperial troops die every day in battles on millions of worlds during campaigns.  It's funny to watch hardcore WH40k fatbeards become the mammy from Tom & Jerry treating women like mice, jumping up on a stool and shrieking as they pull up their copious skirts to avoid the frightening menace.

On the other hand, pointless insertion of things that are obviously included to appease SJWs is beyond goddamn ridiculous; insisting on a pan-gender* friendly WH40k is like insisting Andrea Dworkin should've had a regular column in Juggs.  

Finally, this is for Blackhand:



...

* = just go google how many "genders" some permanent headcases thing there are and should have their own designation: it's a laugh riot.

Does it matter in any fashion? Aside from Space Marines has it been stated that women are excluded or restricted in the Imperium military? You want more in your setting. Describe more of the billions of faceless mooks as having female bits. Hell, if you want female space marines just make them. You don't even have to change much or create entirely new women chapters to highlight how egalitarian your setting is. They're Space Marines of whatever Chapter, treated no differently from the others. Setting them up as some super special thing even seem a little counter to the protestations. You don't need the writer's permission or any great effort to do any of this. I don't see what the big fuss is about

Quote from: Nexus;670896Does it matter in any fashion? Aside from Space Marines has it been stated that women are excluded or restricted in the Imperium military?

Nope. Male, female, red, blue, yellow, white; the Imperium does not care, except in a couple of very limited circumstances (Space Marines and Sisters of Battle). And the texts reflect this, mentioning female Guard, non-white soldiers, etc. 40k is a terrible place for many reasons, but they've moved beyond our petty *ism's and *phobias to an entire new level of hatred.

It would just be nice if the art and the model range actually reflected this.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that nobody should be able to see their own ethnicity in a 40k rulebook, regardless of what it is.

Quote from: TristramEvans;670441

Excelsior true believer!

Perhaps that fellow is playing in a 'My Little Brony' LARP.



Look up My Little Brony on google; it is real.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/10/bronycon-2012-bronies-my-little-pony_n_1196695.html

People who dress as equines scare me

Quote from: Nexus;670896Does it matter in any fashion? Aside from Space Marines has it been stated that women are excluded or restricted in the Imperium military? You want more in your setting. Describe more of the billions of faceless mooks as having female bits. Hell, if you want female space marines just make them. You don't even have to change much or create entirely new women chapters to highlight how egalitarian your setting is. They're Space Marines of whatever Chapter, treated no differently from the others. Setting them up as some super special thing even seem a little counter to the protestations. You don't need the writer's permission or any great effort to do any of this. I don't see what the big fuss is about

Yeah, pretty much this. There are plenty of females in the fiction; from what I can gather the Imperium seems to be of the opinion that since they are fighting for their lives they are going to use every resource available, which means they aren't going to leave half their population in the kitchen.

As for female space marines,

1. Can you even talk about Space Marines as being male? I had the impression they were asexual. Their gender identity is likely "killing machine for the emperor" rather than male, if you can even call that a gender identity.

2. The fluff contradicts itself. Space Marines are drawn from the best of the best, the most aggressive of Imperium troops, which implies they would mostly be in their 20s when recruited, but it also says the implants and therapies that make them Space Marines start when they are pre-pubescent.

Personally I think the first option makes more sense, and there's no reason there wouldn't be women who would fit that profile. Maybe less women, but then again maybe not, given that 40k is not our universe.

More importantly,
2. You're the GM, it's your world, do what you want. Who give a crap what GW or anyone else thinks or says?

I really don't get the subservient attitude a lot of people seem to have for BtB/RAW/cannon when it comes to gaming, whether it be fluff, mechanics, or anything else. If you want to do something differently, do it. Agonizing over it is pointless.

Quote from: Bill;670944Perhaps that fellow is playing in a 'My Little Brony' LARP.



Look up My Little Brony on google; it is real.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/10/bronycon-2012-bronies-my-little-pony_n_1196695.html

And you really felt a need to inflict this on the rest of us?!

Quote from: apparition13;670980As for female space marines,

1. Can you even talk about Space Marines as being male? I had the impression they were asexual. Their gender identity is likely "killing machine for the emperor" rather than male, if you can even call that a gender identity.

2. The fluff contradicts itself. Space Marines are drawn from the best of the best, the most aggressive of Imperium troops, which implies they would mostly be in their 20s when recruited, but it also says the implants and therapies that make them Space Marines start when they are pre-pubescent.

Personally I think the first option makes more sense, and there's no reason there wouldn't be women who would fit that profile. Maybe less women, but then again maybe not, given that 40k is not our universe.

More importantly,
2. You're the GM, it's your world, do what you want. Who give a crap what GW or anyone else thinks or says?

I really don't get the subservient attitude a lot of people seem to have for BtB/RAW/cannon when it comes to gaming, whether it be fluff, mechanics, or anything else. If you want to do something differently, do it. Agonizing over it is pointless.

1: They are male in looks, and canonically/traditionally defined as "men".
2: Interesting point there, though.
However, it has been implied, and confirmed by staff, that any femmes going through the process-into-space marines would end up looking like males, anyway ... and that is not what those who want female space marines normally is asking for.
3: WH40K did not originate as a rpg, it originated as a miniature game.
Miniature games has their origins in wargaming and tin soldiers more clearly, and as such, historical correctness and by extension fictional canon, is far more important.
Also, in a wargame, there is usually no GM, if you play it, you play by the Rules as Written, or at least by agreed-upon house rules.

Rpgs also evolved from wargames of the miniature-type, and the following of canon is just as much something derived from fan-mentality as it is from wargaming with miniatures - WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get).