Cleanse the mutants!

Quote from: Rincewind1;670379Surely attempting to change the setting is a mark of a lesser GM?



Well, it did start as "Let's have Warhammer....in Spaaaace" joke, with glorious spicing of AD2000 which was in it's golden years when 1e of RPG and WFB came out so...yeah.

Not sure what you're trying to say now.  I think you're trying to save face by conflating a bunch of stuff you half remember from your jerk off sessions while reading this site.

Quote from: tzunder;670376With or without the drugs it'd be fucking awesome. Now that's satire.

As.. I think, is 40k.. and Judge Dredd.

It's meant to be a fascist-theocracy with serious unpleasantness issues so of course they should be sexist.

But it's like many satires, some people just don't get it, and actually sign up for the cause that's being satirised.

You almost always see it in some form of media where there is some right wing, politically incorrect, or overly harsh character or organization that could potentially be interpreted as protagonists. It may be satire, some sort of message to show that the protagonist is bad, or could be a deconstruction of sorts, but many people will lach onto the politically incorrect characters or groups and see them as the heroes.

I think that there is a good reason for that sort of misplaced fandom. It is because we live in such a politically correct world where all of our media and entertainment is filtered through this lens of political correctness, where we have to limit what we can say and think at work, at school, at college, and in large portions of our daily lives. There are people who feel the need for some relief from this omnipresent and oppressive PC and they can have that in their entertainment. Unfortunately, entertainment is overwhelminingly politically correct as well and does not adequately meet the people's need - so they adopt satire and twist it in such a way as to provide an outlet, albeit an over the top one, for their non-PC feelings.

That is why the 40K setting has changed, because people didn't want satire, they wanted the fascists to be the heroes because they're tired of the Marxist heroes they see everywhere else.

Quote from: JeremyR;670234Heck, I can't even think of a woman Jedi from the movies. Or starfighter pilots.

Well, there were all of 4 women in the Original Trilogy (Aunt Beru, Princess Leia, female controller in ESB, and Mon Mothma).

There were also only 2 black men: Lando Calrissian, and black starfighter pilot who dies in RotJ. Not sure if there were any Asians (funny, since Lucas wanted Mifune for Obi-wan).

But the Prequel trilogy has a much more diverse cast. There are female pilots and Jedi in the prequels (Aayla Secura being a fan favorite).

Quote from: Blackhand;670389Not sure what you're trying to say now.  I think you're trying to save face by conflating a bunch of stuff you half remember from your jerk off sessions while reading this site.

I jerk off to porn, but whatever floats your boat, mate. I needn't save my face considering the 'opposition' from you so far. Considering you started off with pomous claim of "you've finally seen the light", as if "we" ever took 40k like a setting that needed inclusiveness.

Quote from: Sergeant Brother;670398You almost always see it in some form of media where there is some right wing, politically incorrect, or overly harsh character or organization that could potentially be interpreted as protagonists. It may be satire, some sort of message to show that the protagonist is bad, or could be a deconstruction of sorts, but many people will lach onto the politically incorrect characters or groups and see them as the heroes.

I think that there is a good reason for that sort of misplaced fandom. It is because we live in such a politically correct world where all of our media and entertainment is filtered through this lens of political correctness, where we have to limit what we can say and think at work, at school, at college, and in large portions of our daily lives. There are people who feel the need for some relief from this omnipresent and oppressive PC and they can have that in their entertainment. Unfortunately, entertainment is overwhelminingly politically correct as well and does not adequately meet the people's need - so they adopt satire and twist it in such a way as to provide an outlet, albeit an over the top one, for their non-PC feelings.

That is why the 40K setting has changed, because people didn't want satire, they wanted the fascists to be the heroes because they're tired of the Marxist heroes they see everywhere else.

Well, for the note, it started with Rogue Trader, so a type of character  that was outside the society itself.

Quote from: tzunder;670376As.. I think, is 40k.. and Judge Dredd.

It's meant to be a fascist-theocracy with serious unpleasantness issues so of course they should be sexist.

But it's like many satires, some people just don't get it, and actually sign up for the cause that's being satirised.

I haven't played WH40K, but my impression is that the space marines are often played up as cool.  They certainly seem to be a popular subject and possibly a popular choice for characters.  Is that what you're talking about?  

For me the question would be whether the game is still fun for, say, women players who want to play female characters.  You can make the game fun to play even when the in-game setting is a horrible dystopia.  However, if - for example - space marines are the cool and popular character choice, and the Sisters of Battle are second-rate, then I can see it being annoying for some women players.  

I've seen this issue in a lot of historical or semi-historical games.  There were campaigns where the GM was dismissive to women players, amounting to "Yes, you can play this game, but all the cool characters are men".  On the other hand, there were campaigns where the GM took care to give players a range of options for cool women characters, sometimes by changing history and sometimes while staying within history.

Quote from: TristramEvans;67023040 millenia in the future mankind is ruled by the wise and culturally-diverce heritaged Divine Matriarch. The DM and her attendants, The Unisex Astra Order allow ftl travel by coonstantly maintaining The Song, a perpetual tune that generates the magic rainbow bridge allowing starwhale and space-dragon vessels to navigate the alternate dimension of The Warp, a strange realm of stars and clouds, home to the Astral Unicorns and the three-moon-wolves. The Divine Matriarch maintains peace throughout the Imperium with her Friendship -Wow! Sparklemotion Sailors, who ride their Star Pegasi through the Warp to seek out those suffering from low self-esteem. The Tech-Wiccans create marvelous toys for all the children in the Universe. And the Inquisition seeks out any signs of The Patriarchy, ever vigilant to threats to the Divine Matriarch's "Emotional Safe Space", especially those that show up in obscure hobby groups.
All was wonderfull throughout the Imperium, with every little girl given her own pony and every little boy castrated after making their first ejaculate donation to the Great Imperial Sperm-Clone Bank. All were content knowing that each planet of The Imperium is populated by an exact ratio of all genetic ancestries, just as all business practices are overseen by the Board of Correct Interpersonal Relations.

Love, Friendship, and Happy-Correct thoughts ruled throughout space.









ANDTHENOMGEVERYONEEISKILLEDBYTHEGOD-DAMNMOTHERFRELLINGTYRANIDS!!!!!!!!

That's a big +1, right there, buddy. A+

I want to ride a Star Pegasi and seek out people with low self esteem!

Quote from: Rincewind1;670400Considering you started off with pomous claim of "you've finally seen the light", as if "we" ever took 40k like a setting that needed inclusiveness.

How soon they forget.

Quote from: jhkim;670401For me the question would be whether the game is still fun for, say, women players who want to play female characters.  You can make the game fun to play even when the in-game setting is a horrible dystopia.  However, if - for example - space marines are the cool and popular character choice, and the Sisters of Battle are second-rate, then I can see it being annoying for some women players.

If I run a superhero campaign based on Paradise Island, how much fun would it be for men players who want to play male characters? Who gives a fuck.

Quote from: jhkim;670401I've seen this issue in a lot of historical or semi-historical games.  There were campaigns where the GM was dismissive to women players, amounting to "Yes, you can play this game, but all the cool characters are men".  On the other hand, there were campaigns where the GM took care to give players a range of options for cool women characters, sometimes by changing history and sometimes while staying within history.

That's true, so that women can play bitches alongside the bastards, you mean?

Not that anyone cares, but the owner/s of the big purple live in Berkely Californa.

It is understandable why the community cultivated and encouraged on RPG.net has become what it is.

Once I understood what planet the people who run the place come from, threads like the 'inclusive 40K' one are not suprising - in fact, they should be expected...

.

Quote from: Sergeant Brother;670398That is why the 40K setting has changed, because people didn't want satire, they wanted the fascists to be the heroes because they're tired of the Marxist heroes they see everywhere else.

I agree with you except, of course, you have *no* idea what a Marxist hero is like. But I accept that you have a different upbringing from mine. [Which was hardcore Marxist, Communist with a swirling pool of feminism and anarchism at the edges. I turned out fine.]

But that's another thread..

We're only talking about gender inclusiveness, yet that's only part of the OP and not really the issue if you stop and think about it.

When I first spoke, I was speaking to Pundit's point about "species" inclusiveness.  

This is because many players feel any 40k RPG is incomplete without huge writeups on Eldar, Orks and Tau as PC's and decry the systems because of this.  That is wholeheartedly missing the point that the setting itself is humano-centric to the point of extreme xenophobia.

Attempting to include these species (as the term "inclusiveness" suggests when paired with the word "species") is missing the point of the setting.  

I never really thought that 40k was gender biased.  I mean, most armies are only men in the real world.  Note I use the word "most" in the sense that more soldiers are men than women.  However, there are more factions in 40k that are female only.  Sisters of Battle are obvious, but what about House Escher or the Callidus Temple?

Both of those are entirely female mostly for the same reason the Adeptus Astartes are only men.

Astartes Gene-Therapy is only designed to work on adolescent males.

House Escher treats it's males like inferior slaves, and due to their genetic culling most of the males born to that house are mentally or physically disabled.

The Callidus Temple of the Officio Assassinorum uses females exclusively because polymorphine works on females without killing them.

All that is from 20+ years ago.  Not to mention many Imperial factions other than Space Marines include many "star" female characters, such as the Adeptus Arbites, the Inquisition and many Rogue Traders.  Not to mention the Adeptus Administratum and the Planetary Governors mentioned in books and other "canon".  I have several female Imperial Guard figures, from a "Vasquez" type grenade launcher mini and a female commissar.

So now the question of inclusiveness turns back to species.  You can't include them in a game because it will change the basic value of the setting - that it's all viewed from a human's eye.

And for those who say the setting changed from Rogue Trader...it only existed that way for 5 years between 87 and 92 when Second Edition came out, and I'll bet many of you never had much contact with it then.

Quote from: tzunder;670410I agree with you except, of course, you have *no* idea what a Marxist hero is like. But I accept that you have a different upbringing from mine. [Which was hardcore Marxist, Communist with a swirling pool of feminism and anarchism at the edges. I turned out fine.]

But that's another thread..

I think that I do, I think it is hard to go through life without of heavy exposure of Marxism from various sources and to various degrees. What could constitute a Marxist hero in fiction can vary quite a bit, depending on how they approach the issue and how obvious they want to be.