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"A dungeon is a series of scenes."

Started by Black Vulmea, April 24, 2012, 05:40:25 PM

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Melan

#30
April 25, 2012, 01:46:49 PM
There are at least two things we are talking about here:
  • structure (function)
  • backdrop (form)
The dungeon as a game structure is not "a series of scenes". The dungeon as a game backdrop can be "a series of scenes". That's the difference.
Now with a Zine!
ⓘ This post is disputed by official sources

Marleycat

#31
April 25, 2012, 01:52:13 PM
Quote from: Melan;533638There are at least two things we are talking about here:
  • structure (function)
  • backdrop (form)
The dungeon as a game structure is not "a series of scenes". The dungeon as a game backdrop can be "a series of scenes". That's the difference.
With this in mind I think the asessment of him not using the language correctly rather than being a troll is correct.
Don\'t mess with cats we kill wizards in one blow.;)

Bill White

#32
April 25, 2012, 02:03:51 PM
I think the notion of "series of scenes" is inoffensive and maybe even useful. It's clear that the linked writer doesn't mean "scene" as in "part of a narrative," which is likely to grate on the sensibilities of those who believe that role-playing games are about delivering raw experience. Instead, he means "scene" in the sense of "place," which seems to be a standard meaning of the word (e.g., "the scene of the crime"), as these definitions from dictionary.com suggest:

QuoteNoun:   
  • The place where an incident in real life or fiction occurs or occurred.
  • A place, with the people, objects, and events in it, regarded as having a particular character or making a particular impression.

Calling a dungeon a series of scenes hearkens back to the view that likens it to a computer flowchart, which is an old school view if ever there was one.

jeff37923

#33
April 25, 2012, 02:08:04 PM
Yet if you replace the word "dungeon" with "adventure" it all makes much more sense.
"Meh."

Bill White

#34
April 25, 2012, 02:13:31 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;533651Yet if you replace the word "dungeon" with "adventure" it all makes much more sense.

Sure. But what's the difference between a dungeon and an adventure?

Marleycat

#35
April 25, 2012, 02:16:51 PM
Quote from: Bill White;533653Sure. But what's the difference between a dungeon and an adventure?
Well a dungeon is usually a specific place where an adventure may or may not happen. YMMV
Don\'t mess with cats we kill wizards in one blow.;)

jeff37923

#36
April 25, 2012, 02:17:28 PM
Quote from: Bill White;533653Sure. But what's the difference between a dungeon and an adventure?

A dungeon is more of a set piece. An adventure is a framework for what happens or can happen in that set piece.
"Meh."

Géza Echs

#37
April 25, 2012, 02:20:48 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;533656A dungeon is more of a set piece. An adventure is a framework for what happens or can happen in that set piece.

Hrm. But when we're talking about dungeons that are in published adventures, there's no way to differentiate the two. The dungeon and the adventure are all one piece - since, as I said, the dungeon doesn't actually exist anywhere.

Exploderwizard

#38
April 25, 2012, 02:44:34 PM
Quote from: Marleycat;533644With this in mind I think the asessment of him not using the language correctly rather than being a troll is correct.

I don't believe him to be a troll. However this:

[quote from blog]

A dungeon is a series of scenes. Each scene is a major event–a fight or conflict–which occurs within a limited geographic area that I call a site. A few common site types are listed below.

[end quote]

seems to indicate that scene and site are clearly defined terms.

I played a one shot of his Dungeon Raiders system last month (he was the DM). The game was a blast with very simple OD&D style mechanics. He is a nice guy and fun to game with but this blog indicates that he has a lot to learn about old school.

In fact this method of dungeon design is as new school as it gets.
Quote from: JonWakeGamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than \'oh, neat, what\'s this do?\', the reaction is to decide if it\'s a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.

everloss

#39
April 25, 2012, 02:45:02 PM
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;533462While I certainly appreciate dungeons that have a theme and a history and a purpose...weren't the "Gygaxian dungeons" known for being a collection of esoteric elements that made little sense with one another?

I think one reason I barely got into the idea of running dungeon crawls as a DM was because most of the published examples I saw fell more along those lines, rather than dungeons with an actual purpose and theme to them.

I feel (or felt, at the time I started gaming) the same way. I didn't like or understand the idea of a dungeon crawl, and I never liked any of the published ones I saw from TSR. They just seemed like randomly thrown together rooms with connecting hallways.
Like everyone else, I have a blog
rpgpunk

jeff37923

#40
April 25, 2012, 02:48:07 PM
Quote from: Géza Echs;533659Hrm. But when we're talking about dungeons that are in published adventures, there's no way to differentiate the two. The dungeon and the adventure are all one piece - since, as I said, the dungeon doesn't actually exist anywhere.

Sure there are ways to differentiate. The key part being where the PCs are have the adventure. The dungeon and adventure exist as one piece here in the real world where it was purchased, but the place where the Players immerse themselves in the game has differentiation - even if it does not exist in the real world.
"Meh."

Marleycat

#41
April 25, 2012, 02:48:26 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard;533664I don't believe him to be a troll. However this:

[quote from blog]

A dungeon is a series of scenes. Each scene is a major event–a fight or conflict–which occurs within a limited geographic area that I call a site. A few common site types are listed below.

[end quote]

seems to indicate that scene and site are clearly defined terms.

I played a one shot of his Dungeon Raiders system last month (he was the DM). The game was a blast with very simple OD&D style mechanics. He is a nice guy and fun to game with but this blog indicates that he has a lot to learn about old school.

In fact this method of dungeon design is as new school as it gets.
Definitely, but it really just sounds like he has the terminology a bit borked. I can't say much given I am just learning myself and still don't understand some of the shadings in definition of the terms.

But the bolded part is definitely about as new school as it is.
Don\'t mess with cats we kill wizards in one blow.;)

Bill White

#42
April 25, 2012, 02:50:23 PM
Quote from: Marleycat;533655Well a dungeon is usually a specific place where an adventure may or may not happen. YMMV

Okay. I hear you saying that an adventure is a given instance of running through a particular dungeon (i.e., a "specific place"). So you can "prep" a dungeon, but you can't really prep an adventure, because that's what PCs do by making their choices in the dungeon. Do I get you right?

Quote from: jeff37923;533656A dungeon is more of a set piece. An adventure is a framework for what happens or can happen in that set piece.

This is different from what Marleycat says. It sounds like you're saying that a "dungeon" is just the description of an imagined physical setting, while an "adventure" (by which I think you mean the GM's prep) includes that physical description plus some sense of the activities taking place in that setting (and how they might be affected by PC action). Yes?

Quote from: Géza Echs;533659Hrm. But when we're talking about dungeons that are in published adventures, there's no way to differentiate the two. The dungeon and the adventure are all one piece - since, as I said, the dungeon doesn't actually exist anywhere.

I agree with this.

jeff37923

#43
April 25, 2012, 02:57:14 PM
Quote from: Bill White;533668This is different from what Marleycat says. It sounds like you're saying that a "dungeon" is just the description of an imagined physical setting, while an "adventure" (by which I think you mean the GM's prep) includes that physical description plus some sense of the activities taking place in that setting (and how they might be affected by PC action). Yes?

Yes.

The adventure is where the immersive play of a tabletop RPG occurs, while the dungeon is its physical location in that adventure. For this, dungeon is interchangeable with starship, secret lair, village, castle, space station, or what have you.
"Meh."

Marleycat

#44
April 25, 2012, 03:00:23 PM Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 03:02:44 PM by Marleycat
Quote from: Bill White;533668Okay. I hear you saying that an adventure is a given instance of running through a particular dungeon (i.e., a "specific place"). So you can "prep" a dungeon, but you can't really prep an adventure, because that's what PCs do by making their choices in the dungeon. Do I get you right?

Yes. This is why anything or nothing may happen. The dungeon is just a backdrop which really can mean whatever or wherever.
Don\'t mess with cats we kill wizards in one blow.;)
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