https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6177752/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

IIUC, it chronicles both the rise and fall of the oWoD. I'm looking for it, but here in Italy it is unavailable both on Netflix and Amazon Prime.

It was free on Youtube for awhile, you can check there. This was pretty much made by Paradox after they bought White Wolf from CCP. It was part of their lead up to releasing Vampire 5th edition.

Quote from: Orphan81;1128520It was free on Youtube for awhile, you can check there. This was pretty much made by Paradox after they bought White Wolf from CCP. It was part of their lead up to releasing Vampire 5th edition.

I checked on YT, but I could find only trailers. I'll look elsewhere too.

I'm curios. I never played the oWoD (or the New for what matters), but I loved the PC game (the second one IIRC) and some of the crunch for Mage was cool.

World of Darkness was my gateway into Roleplaying. First RPG I ever played was Werewolf: The Apocalypse 1st edition back when I was either 11 or 12. Whitewolf games have always had a special place in my heart, even as they kind of sold out in the last ten years or so. The 20th Anniversary editions of the Classic books were a revival of everything I loved and seemed to be the return of much of what I loved. There were some good ideas in Nwod, particularly when they moved to the 2nd edition of their own material, but for me nothing beat the classic versions.. and the 20th anniversary editions brought them up to the modern age.

Then Paradox acquired them. Then they let a European Larper get to dictate the new storyline based off of his Homebrew games. They farmed the Mechanics out to a writer I very much respect (Kenneth Hite) but whose ideas on Mechanics are ones I don't like...and who has gone on record as saying he hates Vampires.

The result is Vampire The Masquerade 5th edition... which is Divisive to say the least. It's pretty much the equivalent of Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition... With some mechanic changes that make it damn near alien to longtime players.. and Metaplot changes that have burned the majority of fans. Even the people who love the Mechanics of 5th edition have heavy elements of the plot changes they really don't like and change at their own table.

The really sad thing is.. That Larper who was in charge, ended up "Leaving" the company do to creative differences... and Paradox kicked the writing responsibilities back to the original Writers. So now 5th edition is in the hands of the original staff whose been writing for years... but they have to work with a Metaplot and setting they had no control or say over, and Mechanics they had no hand in developing either.

Well, I suppose maybe we'll get a 6th edition in about 5 more years or so, that will revert some things back to the way fans originally liked both mechanically and setting-wise.

Quote from: Orphan81;1128527World of Darkness was my gateway into Roleplaying. First RPG I ever played was Werewolf: The Apocalypse 1st edition back when I was either 11 or 12. Whitewolf games have always had a special place in my heart, even as they kind of sold out in the last ten years or so. The 20th Anniversary editions of the Classic books were a revival of everything I loved and seemed to be the return of much of what I loved. There were some good ideas in Nwod, particularly when they moved to the 2nd edition of their own material, but for me nothing beat the classic versions.. and the 20th anniversary editions brought them up to the modern age.

Then Paradox acquired them. Then they let a European Larper get to dictate the new storyline based off of his Homebrew games. They farmed the Mechanics out to a writer I very much respect (Kenneth Hite) but whose ideas on Mechanics are ones I don't like...and who has gone on record as saying he hates Vampires.

The result is Vampire The Masquerade 5th edition... which is Divisive to say the least. It's pretty much the equivalent of Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition... With some mechanic changes that make it damn near alien to longtime players.. and Metaplot changes that have burned the majority of fans. Even the people who love the Mechanics of 5th edition have heavy elements of the plot changes they really don't like and change at their own table.

The really sad thing is.. That Larper who was in charge, ended up "Leaving" the company do to creative differences... and Paradox kicked the writing responsibilities back to the original Writers. So now 5th edition is in the hands of the original staff whose been writing for years... but they have to work with a Metaplot and setting they had no control or say over, and Mechanics they had no hand in developing either.

Well, I suppose maybe we'll get a 6th edition in about 5 more years or so, that will revert some things back to the way fans originally liked both mechanically and setting-wise.

I feel very differently. I don't like the games at all. I find them very cringey. There are some good ideas, but most of it's unsalvageable. I wish there were other games, but WW holds an undeserved monopoly.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1128647I feel very differently. I don't like the games at all. I find them very cringey. There are some good ideas, but most of it's unsalvageable. I wish there were other games, but WW holds an undeserved monopoly.

I'm a little confused by this. If you don't like the WoD games *at all*. What are they holding a monopoly on exactly? There have been many many threads talking about systems where there is *at best* toleration for the Storyteller System as a set of mechanics. Most people (including myself) find the system a mess. But there are puh-lenty of systems out there that could be leveraged to do Urban Fantasy with vampires/werewolves/fae/magicians oh my! better than the Storyteller system. Why not go that route and make the homebrew you really want?

I LOVE *my* Forgotten Realms campaign, I have zero love for D&D as a system past 2e, I run my Realms games in another system entirely without missing a beat. What's the issue?

Quote from: Orphan81;1128527...and Metaplot changes that have burned the majority of fans. Even the people who love the Mechanics of 5th edition have heavy elements of the plot changes they really don't like and change at their own table.
....

Why is the 5th edition Vampire still having a "metaplot".

The Metaplot issues from 1st edition is probably the number one thing that killed off the fanbase.

Why couldn't it be like every other RPG, and just present a setting and then let everyone run with it.

I don't get the fetish Vampire designers seem to have about not just presenting a setting - but having a metaplot in the game line supplements...

Quote from: Jaeger;1128917I don't get the fetish Vampire designers seem to have about not just presenting a setting - but having a metaplot in the game line supplements...

One could say that The Forgotten Realms suffer from the same problem, but I simply used the books I read as a source of inspiration - never as "this and that happens on this date". Even when they published the truly horrific "Avatar Trilogy" to move from 1E to 2E I ignored the specific events and wrote my own plot (the only time I wrote one - I usually start with a few interesting situations happening at the same time and let the ball to be rolled by the players).

A few books, like "Elfshadow" by Elaine Cunningham, are quite good and show you how you can write adventures a-la "Bourne Identity" in a fantasy setting. Others showed "The Realms in motion", provided ideas for events and characters and so on.

As I said, I never played anything oWoD and I read some Mage supplements for the crunch. Wraith: the WWI was a good read too. How much the meta-plot in oWoD forced the GM and the players down pre-determined paths?

Quote from: Jaeger;1128917Why is the 5th edition Vampire still having a "metaplot".

The Metaplot issues from 1st edition is probably the number one thing that killed off the fanbase.

Why couldn't it be like every other RPG, and just present a setting and then let everyone run with it.

I don't get the fetish Vampire designers seem to have about not just presenting a setting - but having a metaplot in the game line supplements...

This is basically what they did with Vampire: The Requiem first edition. There was no metaplot, it was just a setting presented. One of the problems is, it all came off as very, VERY, dry. As it seemed the lack of metaplot was largely taken to, "As little setting as possible outside of bare bones".  At the end of Requiem 1st editions life, they added more setting that was something akin to being a "metaplot light" a far more flesh out setting. So much so, the 2nd edition is known as "Vampire the Requiem: The Strix Chronicles"

When 20th edition Vampire the Masquerade came out.. They took a metaplot agnostic approach which seemed to sort of be the best way to handle things. The whole fleshed out setting and backstory of Vampire presented... also brought up to the Modern age.. with lots of possibilities of where things could go. Along with rules for how to do those different things if you wanted.

But hardcore Whitewolf fans, you ask many of them... and the metaplot is one of the reasons they enjoy the books so much. The ongoing story of Vampire. When done right, it gives Storytellers these events that rippled through Vampire society that they can use in their own games to inspire more stories, or have the players take direct part in.

Good examples are things like "The Time of thin Blood" Vampiric Generation becoming so much further from Caine... that creatures that can barely be considered vampires are appearing in larger and larger numbers. Many are walking Masquerade violations, and they scare the shit out of Elder Vampires because they're supposed to herald the end of the world....A controversial event, but one I think was great.. was the Destruction of the Ravanos...Their founder awakening in India, and ultimately being destroyed, causing the Clan itself to nearly be wiped out in reverberations..

Obviously, a Good Storyteller wouldn't declare a Ravnos PC to be dead... but it would be an event that would be special for them.. to know their Founder was dead, and so was the majority of their Clan... they're alone now, and more of a Bloodline than an out and out Clan.

The bad examples were when the Books would harp on about the super special NPC's and all of their actions that ended up reading more like personal fiction rather than cool story events that could actually be used.

The Metaplot was always going to be advanced. Before Paradox bought Whitewolf... They were planning what they called a "4th edition" of Vampire. Original Whitewolf didn't view the 20th Anniversary editions as a separate edition. They viewed it as just that, a 20th anniversary compilation. But all the interest in it and sales pointed to revitalizing the line. Eddy Web was going to be the lead designer and had plans for where things were going to go..

Then Paradox bought White Wolf... They declared 20th anniversary edition to be a "4th" edition... and decided they were making their own 5th edition. They hired completely separate writers who had no real long history with writing the product... including like I said.. the Larper who was put in charge of the setting and line... He basically nuked the entire setting. There changes made that were so fucking drastic, it completely removed about 75% of the ways you could play Vampire.

Then like I said, he fucked off.. and it got kicked back to the original writers... who have been picking up the pieces and trying to expand things within the constraints they've been given.

Quote from: tenbones;1128899I'm a little confused by this. If you don't like the WoD games *at all*. What are they holding a monopoly on exactly? There have been many many threads talking about systems where there is *at best* toleration for the Storyteller System as a set of mechanics. Most people (including myself) find the system a mess. But there are puh-lenty of systems out there that could be leveraged to do Urban Fantasy with vampires/werewolves/fae/magicians oh my! better than the Storyteller system. Why not go that route and make the homebrew you really want?

I LOVE *my* Forgotten Realms campaign, I have zero love for D&D as a system past 2e, I run my Realms games in another system entirely without missing a beat. What's the issue?

Most players play WoD because of the setting, not the rules (which are horrible). For whatever reason, it holds a monopoly over the urban fantasy market and other games have extreme difficulty entering it. There are hundreds of books for WoD. Other urban fantasy games barely have a core rulebook.

I'd like to have a game which has support for multiple campaign settings. Like D&D, except for urban fantasy. The few urban fantasy games I've found generally restrict themselves to a single setting. I'd like to have replacements for Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Ghost, and Fairy that aren't restricted by WW's idiosyncratic takes on the subjects.

I made a whole thread in the development forum to discuss this. If you're interested, then we could discuss settings or something.

The biggest other setting I've seen for Urban Fantasy are the Dresden Files books.

Agreed that the Metaplot was a big selling point- also another forgotten point by many is how big the oWoD LARP scene was in the early 2000s. They bought PILES of books, and it turns out, drove far more of the sales than anyone realized. WW told them to Fuck off and leave, so they did. nWoD sales suffered deeply because of that.

Quote from: Orphan81;1129001Then Paradox bought White Wolf... They declared 20th anniversary edition to be a "4th" edition... and decided they were making their own 5th edition. They hired completely separate writers who had no real long history with writing the product... including like I said.. the Larper who was put in charge of the setting and line... He basically nuked the entire setting. There changes made that were so fucking drastic, it completely removed about 75% of the ways you could play Vampire.

Then like I said, he fucked off.. and it got kicked back to the original writers... who have been picking up the pieces and trying to expand things within the constraints they've been given.

Since Paradox is making the video game and that's going to use their new metaplot... well, the tabletop is basically fucked. The video game will always be making far more money than the tabletop. And it looks like an off-brand Requiem with multiple factions.

Thankfully, I'm not one of those people who gives a flying fuck about the metaplot. Clearly, I'm better off for it if people who do care are saying that 75% of the game has become nonexistent. Being a WW junkie sounds like a nightmare. I'm so glad that I left this nightmare of a fandom back when I did. If I was still one of the WW junkies then I'd probably be throwing a hissy fit right now.

You guys should really get over this shitty 90s game addiction and play something else. Like one of other vampire games that are out on the market that were overshadowed by WW. Vampire City, Feed, Urban Shadows, blah blah blah.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1129312Since Paradox is making the video game and that's going to use their new metaplot... well, the tabletop is basically fucked. The video game will always be making far more money than the tabletop. And it looks like an off-brand Requiem with multiple factions.

Thankfully, I'm not one of those people who gives a flying fuck about the metaplot. Clearly, I'm better off for it if people who do care are saying that 75% of the game has become nonexistent. Being a WW junkie sounds like a nightmare. I'm so glad that I left this nightmare of a fandom back when I did. If I was still one of the WW junkies then I'd probably be throwing a hissy fit right now.

You guys should really get over this shitty 90s game addiction and play something else. Like one of other vampire games that are out on the market that were overshadowed by WW. Vampire City, Feed, Urban Shadows, blah blah blah.

It is a nightmare. However that being said, I own all of those other games you just mentioned, and none of them are as Good as the World of Darkness titles for me and other fans. It's a love of the setting, and many of the mechanics. 20th Anniversary editions basically gave us the best version of the Classic WoD system and the best version of the setting... So many of us are just sticking with that and ignoring most of 5th edition.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1129312...
...You guys should really get over this shitty 90s game addiction and play something else. Like one of other vampire games that are out on the market that were overshadowed by WW. Vampire City, Feed, Urban Shadows, blah blah blah.

That's like telling elfgame players that they should really get over their 70's/80's addiction, and play one of the new games out there that are superior to D&D in both system and setting...

What you say may be objectively true.

But it just doesn't matter.

"First" is very powerful in the US RPG hobby.

Quote from: Orphan81;1129400It is a nightmare. However that being said, I own all of those other games you just mentioned, and none of them are as Good as the World of Darkness titles for me and other fans. It's a love of the setting, and many of the mechanics. 20th Anniversary editions basically gave us the best version of the Classic WoD system and the best version of the setting... So many of us are just sticking with that and ignoring most of 5th edition.

I actually like a few of the V5 mechanics in theory, like tracking hunger instead of blood points and having more powers in the disciplines. (Blood resonance is a neat concept, but I think it should have been expanded to resonance in general rather than specifically blood in order to represent roleplaying learning powers. For example, learn necromancy by spending time in cemeteries or something.) However, I would have preferred a keyword organization for disciplines instead. The way some disciplines have been condensed results in some bloodlines losing exclusively and the rules don't address this.

Quote from: Jaeger;1129405That's like telling elfgame players that they should really get over their 70's/80's addiction, and play one of the new games out there that are superior to D&D in both system and setting...

What you say may be objectively true.

But it just doesn't matter.

"First" is very powerful in the US RPG hobby.

That's not a fair comparison. Elfgames have the OSR. Why not bring the OSR to the worlds of dimness? I made a whole thread about that.

If it's setting that you guys like, then why not make our own?