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Author Topic: A Damning Rebuke of Anti-"immersionists" From Beyond the Grave  (Read 16880 times)

Koltar

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A Damning Rebuke of Anti-"immersionists" From Beyond the Grave
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2008, 01:52:57 AM »
Quote from: Aos
Yeah Gygax's death is all about YOU- just like everything else. You are are pathetic sack of shit.


Aos - BEFORE Gary Gygax died - Pundit was quoting him in the threadstarts and posts.

 If this was all of sudden , I'd agree with you ...but it isn't.

Less than a month or two ago, Pundit started a topic by quoting something that Gygax said in the original DMG.

This is not capitalizing on News events. This thread could have been started by Pundit a month ago or even a year ago.

 This is no more than a guy going through an old gaming book and finding a passage and saying "Hey!, thats just what I've been saying all along!!"


Zheesh!!


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RPGPundit

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A Damning Rebuke of Anti-"immersionists" From Beyond the Grave
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2008, 02:56:39 AM »
Quote from: Aos
Yeah Gygax's death is all about YOU- just like everything else. You are are pathetic sack of shit.


Yeah, right, that's why I'm quoting HIM.

Its perfectly relevant to talk about the positions and impact of someone after they've gone.  That's what this thread is about, discussing Gary Gygax's real views about RPGs.

Now, are you going to keep up with your pathetic tantrum, or do you actually have something of his to quote that shows that he just loved storygames?  Because of course, you're lashing out at me because you can't stand that now you won't be allowed to lash out at him the way you Swine have been doing for the last two decades.

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A Damning Rebuke of Anti-"immersionists" From Beyond the Grave
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2008, 03:05:06 AM »
Jesus Christ on a stick! Shall we all kiss some more Gygax arse? Oh Great Gary, your every assertion is law! Oh, Great Gary, just because you said something must make it truth for all time!
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Thanatos02

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A Damning Rebuke of Anti-"immersionists" From Beyond the Grave
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2008, 03:24:41 AM »
Quote from: droog
Jesus Christ on a stick! Shall we all kiss some more Gygax arse? Oh Great Gary, your every assertion is law! Oh, Great Gary, just because you said something must make it truth for all time!

Well, he's dead, so now's a good time to assert that it's true because disagreeing will look insensitive?

Actually, I don't think that's what Pundit is getting at. More like, "While we're thinking of Gary, I'd like to remind you of what he said. And I think he's right."

I mean, part of me agrees and part of me disagrees. Like, I enjoy immersion and everything, but it doesn't have to be all immersive, all the time. I like to mix it up. So, not only do I figg're that there's a middle ground between X-treme immersion and 'people who do this are crazy', but that there's a middle ground between, "and therefore, we should play immersivly/immersion is unhealthy".

Which, hopefully is saying nothing new.
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Anthrobot
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A Damning Rebuke of Anti-"immersionists" From Beyond the Grave
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2008, 07:56:09 AM »
Quote from: blakkie
P.S. And yeah, sorry but the thread is in poor taste right now. Especially playing up the "from beyond the grave". It would have been nice if you'd held off till next week. But I guess class isn't exactly your style.


Now, more than ever we need to be reminded of what Gary Gygax said. What his views on roleplaying where.
After all, he contributed the game that started this hobby of ours. So his views (stemming from his long years of roleplaying experience) might be pretty relevant to how we all go about gaming.
This isn't the Forge where we have to accept every view from "The Ronitor" uncritically.
http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Ecky-Thump

So atheists have been abused, treated badly by clergy or they're stupid.They're just being trendy because they can't understand The God Delusion because they don't have the education, plus they're just pretending to be atheists anyway. Pundit you're the one with a problem, terminal stupidity.

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A Damning Rebuke of Anti-"immersionists" From Beyond the Grave
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2008, 08:28:38 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit


Now please, tell me again how Gary Gygax wasn't actually criticizing the Storygames movement?


Well let's see.  He uses nuanced, respectful language.  He doesn't curse or attack anyone personally.  He makes a prediction without tearing anyone else's fun down.  Nowhere does he specifically criticize Storygames (if that is indeed who he is even talking about), he just says that he thinks the form that he invented and finds fun will endure.

And the big kicker:  he's confident about it.

Since he's your hero, maybe you could learn from his delivery method as well as his content.
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Haffrung

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A Damning Rebuke of Anti-"immersionists" From Beyond the Grave
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2008, 08:42:07 AM »
Quote from: Thanatos02


I mean, part of me agrees and part of me disagrees. Like, I enjoy immersion and everything, but it doesn't have to be all immersive, all the time. I like to mix it up. So, not only do I figg're that there's a middle ground between X-treme immersion and 'people who do this are crazy', but that there's a middle ground between, "and therefore, we should play immersivly/immersion is unhealthy".



All the quote really says to me is that immersion is an essential element in an RPG. If you have none, and it's all about tactical gaming, then you have boardgame. If it's all about following rules for collectively manipulating a narrative, then it's a different and new sort of game.

Seems rather straightforward to me.
 

RChandler

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A Damning Rebuke of Anti-"immersionists" From Beyond the Grave
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2008, 08:44:58 AM »
Quote from: Anthrobot
This isn't the Forge where we have to accept every view from "The Ronitor" uncritically.


This is demonstrably incorrect.

I wrote and published a game that indie gamers have described as traditional and simulationist. I like illusionism and GM fiat (so long as you've got a competent GM). I like the idea of immersionism (to a point -- as a few people have noted, it's not like I actually think I'm another person, but yeah, I get into character).

I've been posting at the Forge for six years. I do not accept anyone's views uncritically. Ron has never been anything but respectful. He is mature enough to agree to disagree. No one at the Forge has ever said anything to me about my stance, though I've made it no secret (hell, I published a game that includes explicit rules about GM fiat, immersion, and so forth). No one has ever tried to correct me.
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Anthrobot
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A Damning Rebuke of Anti-"immersionists" From Beyond the Grave
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2008, 09:10:27 AM »
Quote from: RChandler

I've been posting at the Forge for six years. I do not accept anyone's views uncritically. Ron has never been anything but respectful. He is mature enough to agree to disagree. No one at the Forge has ever said anything to me about my stance, though I've made it no secret (hell, I published a game that includes explicit rules about GM fiat, immersion, and so forth). No one has ever tried to correct me.


I'm glad to hear that you have some critical faculties. I've seen some folks from the Forge  who when RE espouses the view that some gamers are brain damaged respond without thought "I am that brain damaged roleplayer! Halleleuyah! I've seen the Light of the Ronitor!".
Never mind that RE isn't a neurologist and has probably never seen a brain scan of a person that has been injured playing certain types of RPG. It would be all over the news if there were any factual evidence for this kind of rubbish. RE may have been mature and respectful to you, and anyone else on the Forge website, however calling someone "brain damaged" just because they aren't daft enough to swallow his guff is being extremely disrespectful.
http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Ecky-Thump

So atheists have been abused, treated badly by clergy or they're stupid.They're just being trendy because they can't understand The God Delusion because they don't have the education, plus they're just pretending to be atheists anyway. Pundit you're the one with a problem, terminal stupidity.

RChandler

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A Damning Rebuke of Anti-"immersionists" From Beyond the Grave
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2008, 09:21:23 AM »
I agree that the 'brain damage' quote was very confusing and troubling. I still haven't read the whole article-blog-thing (I have zero interest in game theory, so my eyes tend to glaze over when I'm reading about it). One of these days I'm going to get around to it, though.

I also agree that no matter which board you frequent, you are bound to find acolytes-in-waiting, eager for a leader who can point them in the right direction. It's always disappointing.

And, since I'm feeling agreeable, I will also say that I agree with the idea that this is a board where you can say whatever you like. The Forge is an excellent resource for some things (the aforementioned publishing discussions, for instance), but you can't just post your thoughts and talk about gaming -- that's not what the site is there for. This is one of the reasons why I like theRPGsite. It's fun to talk about games and gaming with other people who also enjoy the hobby.
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Thanatos02

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A Damning Rebuke of Anti-"immersionists" From Beyond the Grave
« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2008, 09:38:56 AM »
Quote from: Haffrung
All the quote really says to me is that immersion is an essential element in an RPG. If you have none, and it's all about tactical gaming, then you have boardgame. If it's all about following rules for collectively manipulating a narrative, then it's a different and new sort of game.

Seems rather straightforward to me.


Pretty straightfoward, I agree.
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Blackleaf

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A Damning Rebuke of Anti-"immersionists" From Beyond the Grave
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2008, 09:45:06 AM »
Gary has said:

Quote from: EGG
"Storytelling" games are not RPGs. Neither are "diceless" games.


But the thing I saw him saw most often, most recently was "it's your game, do what you like with it". :)

Aos

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A Damning Rebuke of Anti-"immersionists" From Beyond the Grave
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2008, 10:22:40 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
Yeah, right, that's why I'm quoting HIM.

Its perfectly relevant to talk about the positions and impact of someone after they've gone.  That's what this thread is about, discussing Gary Gygax's real views about RPGs.

Now, are you going to keep up with your pathetic tantrum, or do you actually have something of his to quote that shows that he just loved storygames?  Because of course, you're lashing out at me because you can't stand that now you won't be allowed to lash out at him the way you Swine have been doing for the last two decades.

RPGPundit



So now I'm swine?
It's like you can't get pathetic enough. I neither know nor care what a storygame is. all I see is you using the attention created by someone else's death to push your pathetic agenda and you imaginary war against six other obsessive nerds..
You are posting in a troll thread.

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jgants

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A Damning Rebuke of Anti-"immersionists" From Beyond the Grave
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2008, 10:32:07 AM »
Quote from: Aos
So now I'm swine?
It's like you can't get pathetic enough. I neither know nor care what a storygame is. all I see is you using the attention created by someone else's death to push your pathetic agenda and you imaginary war against six other obsessive nerds..


So when Pundit was quoting Gygax in a post a week for the last couple of months was it because he had a psychic premonition about the impending death?  Or is it possible that Pundit just quotes Gygax a lot?

And, again, what's the BFD if Pundit is using Gygax's death to draw attention to the man's views.  Isn't that what always happens after a death?
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Koltar

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A Damning Rebuke of Anti-"immersionists" From Beyond the Grave
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2008, 10:32:50 AM »
Quote from: Aos
......... attention created by someone else's death to push your pathetic agenda and you imaginary war against six other obsessive nerds..


NO , he isn't.


 Again, if you have a bit of memory or do a little search , Pundit has quoted Gygax before this week.


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The return of 'You can't take the Sky From me!'
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This is what a really cool FANTASY RPG should be like :
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