I've not been blogging or posting here as much lately, due partly to the holidays, real life stuff, in-person gaming, and most recently my total addiction to DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online). By way of background, I first played an MMORPG back in the Meridian 59 days. Then I got hooked on Everquest in 1998-1999. Since then, I haven't played any MMORPG-- nope, not even WoW. Until now.
Having missed every MMORPG and all other Fantasy-ish types of video games from 1990 to the present (other than a brief stint with TOEE), I can't believe the differences between game styles. I think an old school v. new school analogy can be drawn between the two games:
Everquest:
Dying sux. You needed to go get your corpse somehow, and you had no gear to do it with, so unles you could get somene to do it for you, you likely died several more times trying to get your stuff back. You lost hard-earned XP every time you died.
If you killed it you looted it. If a guy shot an arrow at me, he must have had a bow. I kill him, take the bow, run back to city and sell it.
Sandboxey--You could go wherever you wanted in the world at any time and do anything. Sometimes you ran through a high level zone and got slaughered. And as I said, dying sux.
Related to sandboxey---there was a huge world with a lot of travel involved.
Fewer restrictions on gear---you could twink out a low level guy with high level gear.
Less quest oriented. The quests didn't drive the game.
No magic stores.
XP given per kill.
DDO:
Dying is not a big deal. You appear in an Inn fully geared up. (My idea of heaven---dying and ending up in a bar with all your money to buy beer and bar food.) You just pay some money to fix the damaged gear. Sometimes you can even die and then go back into the same quest again before it expires and finish it up.
No looting of the corpses. Rewards are given out per the quests.
Not sandboxey, not a lot of travel involved. You go on quests, that sometimes link to other quests. There is no true world that you are in---just a setting with a bunch of quest givers and places to buy and sell stuff.
Most gear has level restrictions.
You can buy stuff at magic vendors.
XP given per quest completion, except in rare situations with Slayer Quests.
In the sense that the old school approach to tabletop RPG's is one of the players making their own destinies, with less restrictions, so Everquest fits the old school gaming mode moreso than DDO. DDO takes the more modern adventure path approach, just making them smaller and more frequent. XP is given out not per kill, but per quest, so it is less a combat driven at times, depending on he quest.
I am not surprised at the approach DDO took since it is based on 3.5. Thankfully the computer takes care of all the game mechanics and math, which is my main complaint with 3.x/Pathfinder. Because of that, the game is very enjoyable to me. The 3.x based game could be fun as hell if I were a Vulcan and could do the math in my head in milliseconds. Unfortunately, for someone who doesn't want to learn all the rules minutiae to gain system mastery, I'll never play the 3.x game on the tabletop and have as much fun as I do online.
I never got to the high levels in EQ---I think I made 30 or so. I never did the big guild raid stuff. In DDO I am at level 5 (3 Ranger, 2 Rogue). There are probably other distinctions that can be drawn, or other examples to back up the analogy at the higher levels. I look forward to finding out.
I also find it funny that the whole black market that sprung up with EQ, where you could buy game money or game gear with real money, has been taken over by DDO in this case. They sell stuff to you, and tie it to your account so you can't give it away to twink.
I actually kind of like these restrictions though, because I remember how much I hated seeing a 1st level guy walking around with the Armor and Sword of the Gods in EQ.
BTW, my character is on the Khyber world, named "Tapdatbooty". Say hi if you're around.
It is very true MMO have mostly changed from a sandbox to a more structured quest-based play. DDO is a very extreme example of it.
And I can see a see some parallels between Old School rpgs and olders MMOs.
Where I think the analogy fails is the implication that newer MMOs are more like New School rpgs. And that is because there is no such thing as New School. There is a style of game which we can broadly define as Old School. But outside the Old School roleplaying games have branched out in so many different directions. There are sorts of trends which have come and gone and then come back.
In as far as even the newer MMO are still fundamentally kill, loot and levle up they are probably still closers to Old School games in spirit than something like Call of Cthulhu, Amber, Pendragon or Tales from the Floating Vagabond.
And then there's EVE Online, which is a virtual-world sandbox driven by player interaction instead of the "theme-park" approach of DDO or WoW, but it also includes some "modern" sensibilities.
I also played a brief stint of a hacked version of Fallout 2 that allowed for MMO gameplay. Completely free-for-all, sandbox style game with "equipment" dropoffs at one or two major cities. A very interesting experiment since the full PvP and deadly nature of the game requires you to team up with others just to survive, let alone gain power as a faction. Most of the equipment being dropped off at the two locations also meant there was a constant war for which faction would hold the supply routes.
Instead of everquest a better comparison would have been Ultima Online, the original sandbox mmo, they introduced the entire player economy deal and chinese gold farmers.
I played WoW for a couple of days with the free trial, I could see how it can suck people in to spending chunks of time on it. Ultima Online is rules heavy, it has in game DM's that patrol (check out these links for tales from an ultima online DM, (p1 (http://www.destructoid.com/i-the-author-tales-of-an-omnipotent-public-servant-139162.phtml), p2 (http://www.destructoid.com/by-demand-further-tales-of-an-omnipotent-public-servant-140668.phtml), p3 (http://www.destructoid.com/fresh-from-the-oven-more-tales-of-an-omnipotent-public-servant-144241.phtml), p4 (http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/walkyourpath/instant-karma-tales-of-an-omnipotent-public-servant-part-4-149782.phtml), p5 (http://www.destructoid.com/enhanced-interrogation-tales-of-an-omnipotent-public-servant-part-5-152238.phtml), p6 (http://gamerlimit.com/2009/12/tales-of-an-omnipotent-public-servant-part-6-i-now-pronounce-you/)), WoW is rules light its more an arcade game any anything else to DDO wich is rules intensive yet for what ever reason was not embraced by the public.
The thing I find most damning is that, DDO is _free_ yet its got nowhere near the uptake that WOW has... and its free. Is there something fundamentally wrong with using the DND rules for a MMO?
The sand boxing part I find interesting, is it allows you to role play more than anything else, if you want to be a master carpenter in UO you could be, in WoW your a tank/healer/dps... in DDO your a tank/healer/dps.
So in the most well know (to the rest of world public) rules set in DDO with AD&D, we have the least RP ability going.
The market goes where the money is and I don't see much sand boxing coming and bringing more free form playing back. People want quests, loot and leveling and they don't want to be master carpenters.
I think I got off track a bit :) I'll stop now
If your old school tabletop gaming actually resembled Everquest, then I might actually have to revise my sympathies towards that style of play.
However, I think at play is more a factor of someone picking and choosing traits to fit a mold.
I am inclined to agree with with BloodyCactus though, as UO is much more akin to what I conceive of old school sandbox play resembling, a model shared as well by EVE in many ways.
Most games instead have aped EQ, just better done. WoW is nothing more than EQ made so that normal people can actually play it without devoting their lives to it and living in their basement pooping in a sock. The only thing WoW added was more and easier to discover quests.
My biggest beef with DDO is that by around level 4 if you are playing solo or grouping for that matter. The quests/dungeons start to get rather long. Which is fine for someone who can spend multiple hours playing video games. However for the ability to pick up and play even for an hour the game starts to lose that ability pretty quickly. Which really sucks. It wouldn't be so bad if you could start a solo quest leave the dungeon and come back to it. But it's, this all or nothing approach that blows.
Reading this thread has served to remind me just how much ALL mmorpgs suck compared to real RPGs.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;350541Reading this thread has served to remind me just how much ALL mmorpgs suck compared to real RPGs.
RPGPundit
I've been playing WoW for 4 years. It does not suck, or I wouldn't keep playing it; however, it's a completely different experience from tabletop, and I don't want any WoWisms anywhere near my tabletop rpgs.
Quote from: BloodyCactus;350483Instead of everquest a better comparison would have been Ultima Online, the original sandbox mmo, they introduced the entire player economy deal and chinese gold farmers.
I played WoW for a couple of days with the free trial, I could see how it can suck people in to spending chunks of time on it. Ultima Online is rules heavy, it has in game DM's that patrol WoW is rules light its more an arcade game any anything else to DDO wich is rules intensive yet for what ever reason was not embraced by the public.
The thing I find most damning is that, DDO is _free_ yet its got nowhere near the uptake that WOW has... and its free. Is there something fundamentally wrong with using the DND rules for a MMO?
I tried DDO. I actually liked it better than WoW, but I get motion sickness in a lot of 3d games, and is one of the worst for me. After 30 minutes or so, I'm ready to puke, take about 12 aspirin and go to bed. WoW,s cartoony graphics don't seem to bother me.
Quote from: JRR;350594I've been playing WoW for 4 years. It does not suck, or I wouldn't keep playing it; however, it's a completely different experience from tabletop, and I don't want any WoWisms anywhere near my tabletop rpgs.
I concur with this sentiment. I enjoy MMOs, but they by and large bear only superficial resemblance at best to tabletop RPGs.
I'm frankly disappointed that I'm seeing tabletop take inspiration from MMO, because it should be the other way around.
You know the biggest problem I have--is that when it boils down to it, all the time spent in an MMO, can be better spent playing games via tabletop with friends. While I've made friends via MMO's, its not quite the same as sharing snacks, laughs and games with others.
I've got a few alts on DDO since it went free. I tend to play the superhero MMo's because despite liking to hook up with people to play, gaming scheduling for even MMo's is a problem.
A friend had their account wiped, and I just realized how much time they spent. If I spent that much time feeling good enough to write--I'd be the most prolific RPG author ever.
That Everquest play you describe sounds appealing to me...
I play WOW and still mostly enjoy it... but it has gotten progressively more convenient/easy... to the point now that I'm considering quitting.
Not that I think it needs to be difficult, but the convenience seems to be directed at pleasing people who don't really enjoy playing the game... don't enjoy the exploration/fluff and who only want to get to the top level (for some reason I don't understand).
The higher lvl instances seems a lot more linear... some are just one big room where monsters come in to fight.
The new looking for group system serves to make the storyline/fluff even more irrelevant that it was already getting to be.
In a way it seems to be going backward vs. tabletop design... to a game where you don't much need to leave the dungeon except to buy/sell... and the dungeon is a non-sensical series of rooms with XP (monsters) in them.
In WOW there is so much focus on getting to the 'end game' that I don't see why they don't just give an option for people to pay $100 and get a geared up lvl 80.
If there's any parallel there with the direction D&D has taken then I'm reaffirmed in my desire to have nada to do with 4th edition.
Otherwise, no... it doesn't compare at all with tabletop RPG play. It's a whole nother thing.
Have you done Wrath of the Lich King yet? I felt the storyline in that was actually quite well done and quite well presented. It's the most fun I've had in WoW since the original, certainly better than BC, and even better than original WoW really.
Of course, then you hit cap and it's back to raid or quit again, but I've solved that by simply taking the latter option.
Everquest was a tough game.
Recovery of one's corpse could consume an entire day if you died in a really bad spot. I'm not saying that this was good or bad but it certainly was tough.
At least the game was challenging and character death had real consequences. I didn't get much past level 30 on most characters. I got bored easily beyond the thirty mark and I had no desire to poop into a sock. :)
Quote from: J Arcane;350614Have you done Wrath of the Lich King yet?
Yes, and you're right, some really good story going on there... the whole Northrend area is really well done... but not quite as fun to explore as the classic areas... I'm still running across stuff in Kalimdor/Eastern Kingdoms that I've never seen before, odd little areas... 'hidden' quests. Somehow there just feels like there is a lot more 'depth' to the old areas and instances, it might be a facade but it's one that's convincing to me.
I think part of it is that the old areas are a bit more... romantic. Not sure if that's the word... but all the elf and dwarf ruins jutting up out of the earth... the feeling of buried/lost history... this ponderous sorrow hanging over so much of it. I definitely don't get much of that feeling in the BC or LK content.
And raiding, while it was enjoyable in it's own way... well, that's another game really... and a lot of that endgame upkeep begins to feel a lot like work rather than fun.
In that way it's similar to some tabletop RPGs I've played where the need for more content... supplements/splatbooks begin to water down/change the elements that drew me to the game to begin with. Usually I'd just stop buying the new material... but with an MMO the setting evolves around you whether you like it or not.
Quote from: RPGPundit;350541Reading this thread has served to remind me just how much ALL mmorpgs suck compared to real RPGs.
RPGPundit
I would agree, but there's quite a bit of difference between some that are more like virtual worlds and those that are more like WoW with instanced encounters, and neither really emulate tabletop well.
The virtual worlds are the ones that interest me most, though, because in games like EVE you have a working economy and player-driven corporate warfare. It's one of the only games I know of where a player was able to cause thousands of real-world dollars of damage to a corporation's assets due to months of careful espionage and infiltration.
It might work out a little slow and boring for some people, but I still find it cool to see how local economies develop and politics play out.
The thing I liked about EvE was that I got a lot of reading, cooking, cleaning and general maintenance done around the house while traveling from point A to B, or while waiting for something to happen, or while waiting for my sundry cohorts to just do something. And when things did happen it always cost even more time and money and gradually I realized I was playing a game that cleverly simulated ordinary life and its risks a bit too much for my tastes.
I spent about three hours playing Everquest many years ago, and after deciding that life was not worth the agony of throwing time in to killing the Super Bat for its wings that a team of us could barely accomplish (who knows, maybe we were doing it wrong) I moved on.
WoW was the first MMO that actually made the process fun and relaxing all at once (well, until end game when the raiders, pvpers and general lifers all take over and lose track of reality from game time). I found DDO to be fun until around level 4-6 when it began to feel less like high adventure and more like mopping floors over and over again.
Really hard to appreciate MMOs when you've sampled the ambrosia of tabletop gaming...
QuoteReally hard to appreciate MMOs when you've sampled the ambrosia of tabletop gaming...
I just don't see them as remotely similar experiences.
In fact, I used to
play both WoW and D&D!*gasp*
Amazing, isn't it?
Quote from: J Arcane;350917I just don't see them as remotely similar experiences.
In fact, I used to play both WoW and D&D!
*gasp*
Amazing, isn't it?
Hey, me too!!!!
But that said, if I had a choice of playing D&D tonight over WoW, I'd do so in an instant. I know people who deride my love of D&D while playing WoW obsessively. Irony does not even begin to describe it!
EDIT: Correction, I play both of them now; I missed the "used to" context of your sentence. Oopsie
If anyone still has WoW installed, I'd be game to get together on a server and form a little "putter around" group for awhile. My problem with most MMOs is a definite case of altaholism, and the fact that I don't really like having to beg to get a group together to go do stuff. That's not very "RPG"-like, in my estimation. As a result, I tend to spend my time solo, and miss out on a lot of the content. I actually haven't even played WoW in a couple of months, but its still there, tickling in the back of my head.
I REALLY wish they hadn't fucked around with SWG...
Quote from: Werekoala;350922If anyone still has WoW installed, I'd be game to get together on a server and form a little "putter around" group for awhile. My problem with most MMOs is a definite case of altaholism, and the fact that I don't really like having to beg to get a group together to go do stuff. That's not very "RPG"-like, in my estimation. As a result, I tend to spend my time solo, and miss out on a lot of the content. I actually haven't even played WoW in a couple of months, but its still there, tickling in the back of my head.
I REALLY wish they hadn't fucked around with SWG...
WOW released v3.3 a few weeks ago. One of the improvements is a new group interface for making dungeon and raid groups, with plenty of incentives to use it, and having used it I find it worth the hassle. Not a perfect fix, but good for now; only overland group quests remain a hassle now.
So is that a no? QQ
Quote from: Werekoala;351126So is that a no? QQ
I'm on once a week, on average, so what time I have goes to my guild.
Quote from: Werekoala;351126So is that a no? QQ
I only play for the expansions now. Buy a new expansion, play for a month, beat all the quests, then cancel until the next one.
Cataclysm might last a bit longer if the hype about the old world revamp lives up to it's promise, but I won't be playing again before then.
I play very inconsistently... I'll go on benders and play every night for a week... then not touch it for a month. It just depends on what else is going on.
The friend who got me started hasn't been playing lately so I've kind of been out of it also.
But if someone here started a meetup I'd go...
I <3 DDO
DDO is alot of fun. The basic stuff is basic but it really opens up past level six or so. I play a Cleric so I get to group with higher-level parties that are desperate for heals, but around Cleric level 6 the archetechture really opens up as I get to explore level 10+ dungeons.
The ruins of giant strongholds are convincingly massive and ancient. Impossibly deep dungeons punctuated by free falls into forrests of colossal luminessant mushrooms are convincingly subterrainian. There's a sense of dread, of wonder, of exploration that is tremendously fun.
I also like the tactical implications of fighting in a 3d space. It's something that I haven't seen much of in tabletop play, and I'm excited to import it. Not that it's unheard of in table top play to have say, a deep cistern or a fortified tower or a narrow ledge but I can't ever remember a tabletop game where they are a consistant theme.
Re: Old school
DDO has lethal traps. The 'saving throw' is generaly a spot check to get a bad feeling or a search check just 'cause something doesn't seem right. In early levels you do ok just staying behind the rogue, but later on there are traps that drop walls and spring ambushes. It's deadly to have that happen to a rogue that's too far ahead. In theory you could just memorize it all and not need a spot check but in practice plenty of people forget and die anyway.
DDO also has 'wandering monsters' in the sense that you don't get any reward for killing the random monsters that are waltzing about. It's old school in the sense that you have to get through the Treasure-lite and xp-lite riff-raff to grab the real treasure and real xp. Personaly I'd like to see more monsters that are best to avoid rather than fight. In practice the only ones that get left behind are snipers in protected locations, monsters in optional quests and the occasional slime.
DDO has easy and free resurection available to all but certain dungeons can't be re-entered. So even though you can continualy rez and re-enter low level dungeons it doesn't work for everything. That's an especially tough restriction when you consider the previous point about all the treasure and xp for the whole quest being wrapped up in the finale. I've been in several games where we get a TPK on the threshold of victory and sure we can res out but we get nothing for all our effort.
Quote from: J Arcane;350614Have you done Wrath of the Lich King yet? I felt the storyline in that was actually quite well done and quite well presented. It's the most fun I've had in WoW since the original, certainly better than BC, and even better than original WoW really.
Of course, then you hit cap and it's back to raid or quit again, but I've solved that by simply taking the latter option.
Same here. I got so sick of running dailies and looking for Nax and Ulduar raids I can still puke if I think about it too much. Even the Argent Tourny dailies are boring now. Ugh.
Quote from: PaladinCA;350633Everquest was a tough game.
Recovery of one's corpse could consume an entire day if you died in a really bad spot. I'm not saying that this was good or bad but it certainly was tough.
At least the game was challenging and character death had real consequences. I didn't get much past level 30 on most characters. I got bored easily beyond the thirty mark and I had no desire to poop into a sock. :)
I got my druid to 50, but didn't have much interest beyond that.... I enjoyed my mage, but I was so spoiled by how fast my druid could travel I couldn't get him past 41, just burned out. Man, does this bring back memories though, of CRs and runnig through West Karana and getting beat down by the Hill Giant there cuz I didn't see it until too late. Then there was hanging out in the Maze, or how creepy Befallen was, or Unrest... Mistmoore.... man that game was fun.
P.S. Oh yeah, ya'all remember getting bitch slapped by the Brownie Scout in Lesser Faydark... fuck I hated that guy, it was the coolest ever the day I soloed his little ass.
Quote from: Simlasa;350726Yes, and you're right, some really good story going on there... the whole Northrend area is really well done... but not quite as fun to explore as the classic areas... I'm still running across stuff in Kalimdor/Eastern Kingdoms that I've never seen before, odd little areas... 'hidden' quests. Somehow there just feels like there is a lot more 'depth' to the old areas and instances, it might be a facade but it's one that's convincing to me.
I think part of it is that the old areas are a bit more... romantic. Not sure if that's the word... but all the elf and dwarf ruins jutting up out of the earth... the feeling of buried/lost history... this ponderous sorrow hanging over so much of it. I definitely don't get much of that feeling in the BC or LK content.
And raiding, while it was enjoyable in it's own way... well, that's another game really... and a lot of that endgame upkeep begins to feel a lot like work rather than fun.
In that way it's similar to some tabletop RPGs I've played where the need for more content... supplements/splatbooks begin to water down/change the elements that drew me to the game to begin with. Usually I'd just stop buying the new material... but with an MMO the setting evolves around you whether you like it or not.
Better get to enjoying that Old World stuff now, cuz Cataclysm is gonna wipe it all out.
How is DDO for soloing? I enjoy soloing and I don't like to be forced to search for groups if I only have a short time to play at that time.
I've got a 70 Paladin, Warrior and Shaman just waiting for Cataclysm. Then I'll have 15 levels to have fun with before I have to shelve them again (haven't even done WotLK). I hate raiding or any kind of grinding these days. Did it in EQ and DAoC, don't do it in WoW or LotRO.
Man those old EQ deathpile runs were awesome. Most of the time they were a pain, but sometimes they were just Epic.
Quote from: CRKrueger;367670I've got a 70 Paladin, Warrior and Shaman just waiting for Cataclysm. Then I'll have 15 levels to have fun with before I have to shelve them again (haven't even done WotLK). I hate raiding or any kind of grinding these days. Did it in EQ and DAoC, don't do it in WoW or LotRO.
Man those old EQ deathpile runs were awesome. Most of the time they were a pain, but sometimes they were just Epic.
I just played DaoC again recently for kicks, and the graphics are of course dated but it is still kinda fun.
Quote from: CRKrueger;367670Man those old EQ deathpile runs were awesome. Most of the time they were a pain, but sometimes they were just Epic.
So was running for the zone when low on hit points and bringing a Conga Line of mixed baddies behind you! :)
Quote from: Drohem;367672So was running for the zone when low on hit points and bringing a Conga Line of mixed baddies behind you! :)
Yay trains :D
Makes me think of Blackburrow.
Quote from: Sigmund;367667How is DDO for soloing? I enjoy soloing and I don't like to be forced to search for groups if I only have a short time to play at that time.
Some quests are fairly easy to Solo, others are close to impossible (need healz!), and others won't even let you in the adventure, without 4+ players (named bosses).
I typically find that my Drow Pally3/Rogue6 (emphasis Rogue) doesn't have much trouble solo'ing, especially since picking up an Eternal Wand of Minor Healing (1pt per use, 50 charges, recharges over time) from the Catacombs adventure.
At this point, the only quests I don't take are the ones
requiring a group.
And I find sneaking in an hour's time is possible, but less than that and you'll be having some heartbreak.
Quote from: Werekoala;350922If anyone still has WoW installed, I'd be game to get together on a server and form a little "putter around" group for awhile. My problem with most MMOs is a definite case of altaholism, and the fact that I don't really like having to beg to get a group together to go do stuff. That's not very "RPG"-like, in my estimation. As a result, I tend to spend my time solo, and miss out on a lot of the content. I actually haven't even played WoW in a couple of months, but its still there, tickling in the back of my head.
I REALLY wish they hadn't fucked around with SWG...
Those were some halcyon days in the world of mmo's...
I recently tried a trial version of swg and, tbf, even though it's the same model as wow (classes and talent points), it is qutie playable. Problem is SOE shot themselves completely in the foot by taking a pretty popular game design (though not without fault) and ditching it. No matter what you come up with, doing that will piss off people. Surprise surprise half their fanbase disappeared overnight - and for no good reason. SWG was very popular. The lag around Coronet (this is in the days when the average amoutn of Ram as at most half a gig) was insane.
How you can go wrong with an mmo based around star wars is quite an achievement, but sony managed it. They also managed to balls up the matrix online by giving it no content whatsoever. if ever there was a property that should work well in that form it would be the matrix.
I like WoW. It has it's failings; walking around (till at least level 20) is a fucking chore and the Dreanei starting area is a bit pants. But on the whole it works. It also has a surprisiong amoutn of complexity - something that games like CoH completely lack. The abilities and talents require some thought and you can develop your own (though not really your own, but you fell that it is) way of playing your toon.
Ultimately these games are all just grind quests, kill mobs, loot, xp. But it's a fun timesink, within limits. I just wish that the stupid gold spammers would fuck off.
Quote from: Werekoala;351126So is that a no? QQ
depends what servers ppl are on.
Quote from: Sigmund;367664Better get to enjoying that Old World stuff now, cuz Cataclysm is gonna wipe it all out.
im more concerned with them updating the sysreqs. The beauty of WoW is that my machine can run it.
Cataclysm looks very promising though.
Bah you are all playing wimpy MMORPGs. ;) Nothing beats the original Ultima Online for sheer brutality. Player Killing anytime anywhere (well except in town but only because the guards will beat you to a pulp).
Actually I've been playing Star Trek Online for the last three days. So far, so good - haven't really gotten in to the "crafting" angle yet (my all-time favorite part of SWG and something I really miss). It is a purty game, for sure, and since it is made by the City of Heroes/Villains folks, you have scads of character customization options (I made my own alien race for my Captain, for example). Ground combat is a bit flat, space combat is almost exactly like the old Starfleet Command series (a good thing IMO - I loved those games). The missions do feel "Star Treky" so far, but the forums are already full of people at the level cap bitching about no "end-game" content. Those people are a plague to casual gamers like me. :)
havuing never reached the endgame in any mmo, im not exactly sure how they are supposed to work. Surely once you've hit the level cap there can't be much more incentive to play since you are maxxed out. You don't get more xp and thus more abilities, so...what?
My experience indicates that you hang around the forums and bitch about no end-game content, and about how the game is dead, until the next content release. Then you play for three days straight to max out again, then go back to the forums...
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Quote from: Werekoala;367992My experience indicates that you hang around the forums and bitch about no end-game content, and about how the game is dead, until the next content release. Then you play for three days straight to max out again, then go back to the forums...
Lather, rinse, repeat.
:rotfl:
In CoH/CoV, Badge-Hunting. :)
Most endgame content in MMOs is designed for large groups (10-25 players). So independent of the actual difficulty of the content, you've got the minigame of keeping a dozen or two people motivated and interested, getting them to show up ready and on time, and putting out fires when one drama prince or princess picks a fight with another over voicechat.
It's basically the worst elements you can think of of trying to have a gigantic D&D game in the basement of your college dorm, if you had to pad out your group with people walking by on the street.
But as far as being "maxed out", in something like EQ or WOW the power level of your character continues to rise as you get better and better items, so really you're still "leveling" it's just through gear upgrades. Again, though, unless you're willing to do the guild thing, said upgrades rapidly get you to the point that anything you'd do outside of a raid is trivial.
Quote from: estar;367969Bah you are all playing wimpy MMORPGs. ;) Nothing beats the original Ultima Online for sheer brutality. Player Killing anytime anywhere (well except in town but only because the guards will beat you to a pulp).
Meh, I'd rather be wimpy. I don't have enough time to devote to MMOs to play simply to provide griefers with entertainment.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;367991havuing never reached the endgame in any mmo, im not exactly sure how they are supposed to work. Surely once you've hit the level cap there can't be much more incentive to play since you are maxxed out. You don't get more xp and thus more abilities, so...what?
In WoW it's gear, bragging rights and toys. My dwarf hunter is lvl 80 and is geared enough for Ulduar but still can't afford the motorcycle mount, even though he can make the damn thing himself. The parts needing to be purchased alone cost 12k gold.
Quote from: Sweeney;368082Most endgame content in MMOs is designed for large groups (10-25 players). So independent of the actual difficulty of the content, you've got the minigame of keeping a dozen or two people motivated and interested, getting them to show up ready and on time, and putting out fires when one drama prince or princess picks a fight with another over voicechat.
It's basically the worst elements you can think of of trying to have a gigantic D&D game in the basement of your college dorm, if you had to pad out your group with people walking by on the street.
But as far as being "maxed out", in something like EQ or WOW the power level of your character continues to rise as you get better and better items, so really you're still "leveling" it's just through gear upgrades. Again, though, unless you're willing to do the guild thing, said upgrades rapidly get you to the point that anything you'd do outside of a raid is trivial.
On top of all this, for WoW there's also all the Battleground PvP content that can be enjoyed, plus now there's achievement chasing.
Quote from: Sigmund;368089On top of all this, for WoW there's also all the Battleground PvP content that can be enjoyed, plus now there's achievement chasing.
ah yes, we haven't mentioned pvp.
i tried it once because it sounded like fun. I still think it's a good idea for a game to have, though lotro's skirmish mode is far superior if overwhelming.
However unless you are prepared to comit to playing the pvp game there is NO FUCKING WAY you have a hope in heckity bollocks of suriving more than 2 seconds in any arena. This of course is compounded by all the people who don't work together.
Twinks ahoy.
Though perhaps at the endgame stage you might have the tools to go into pvp mode since you are at the upper limit and then it's just a matter of getting all the right gear.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;368112ah yes, we haven't mentioned pvp.
i tried it once because it sounded like fun. I still think it's a good idea for a game to have, though lotro's skirmish mode is far superior if overwhelming.
However unless you are prepared to comit to playing the pvp game there is NO FUCKING WAY you have a hope in heckity bollocks of suriving more than 2 seconds in any arena. This of course is compounded by all the people who don't work together.
Twinks ahoy.
Though perhaps at the endgame stage you might have the tools to go into pvp mode since you are at the upper limit and then it's just a matter of getting all the right gear.
Yup - doesn't that sound fun? :)
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;368112ah yes, we haven't mentioned pvp.
i tried it once because it sounded like fun. I still think it's a good idea for a game to have, though lotro's skirmish mode is far superior if overwhelming.
However unless you are prepared to comit to playing the pvp game there is NO FUCKING WAY you have a hope in heckity bollocks of suriving more than 2 seconds in any arena. This of course is compounded by all the people who don't work together.
Twinks ahoy.
Though perhaps at the endgame stage you might have the tools to go into pvp mode since you are at the upper limit and then it's just a matter of getting all the right gear.
How geared you need to be also depends on the class. My hunter, while never at the top of the dps scores in pvp, and certainly in for geting killed many times in a BG, still can survive long enough to at least have some fun :) He has no resilience, but he's still geared for Ulduar, so he hits pretty hard unless what he's shooting at has loads of resilience, and because he's survival spec I sometimes get folks going after his pet first, not understanding that unlike BM specs very little of his dps depends on his pet :D Now my warlock, I just can't pvp with locks.... rogues gank me constantly in BGs with the lock. My druid also does pretty well in feral spec, but none of my toons are optimized for pvp. Mainly it's just for achievements.
These online games sound rather repetitive and dull. Where's the adventure, the creativity?
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;368146These online games sound rather repetitive and dull. Where's the adventure, the creativity?
I'm very fortunate in that while I enjoy adventure and creativity, I don't require them in order to be entertained. An element of exploration and discovery combined with the challenge of coordinating with others in order to accomplish a goal also provide me with entertainment. Sorry you can't join us.
Quote from: Sigmund;368145How geared you need to be also depends on the class. My hunter, while never at the top of the dps scores in pvp, and certainly in for geting killed many times in a BG, still can survive long enough to at least have some fun :) He has no resilience, but he's still geared for Ulduar, so he hits pretty hard unless what he's shooting at has loads of resilience, and because he's survival spec I sometimes get folks going after his pet first, not understanding that unlike BM specs very little of his dps depends on his pet :D Now my warlock, I just can't pvp with locks.... rogues gank me constantly in BGs with the lock. My druid also does pretty well in feral spec, but none of my toons are optimized for pvp. Mainly it's just for achievements.
I'd say how geared you have to be is dependent on who you play against. Just look at how much even low level gear goes for on the auction house to see the twinks at work. It is a bit sad. A shame they couldnt institute a mode where people's gear is levelled out. Then we'll see a true test of teamwork/skill. Of course that won't happen.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;368189I'd say how geared you have to be is dependent on who you play against. Just look at how much even low level gear goes for on the auction house to see the twinks at work. It is a bit sad. A shame they couldnt institute a mode where people's gear is levelled out. Then we'll see a true test of teamwork/skill. Of course that won't happen.
Honestly, I just didn't see that much of a problem with this. I did the Arathi Highlands BG at 39 and did just fine. Sure, I wasn't getting the stats of the hardcore BG players but that wasn't my goal, and I wasn't getting killed every couple seconds either. Plus, honestly, even low level twink gear is not expensive at all, except for the absolutely rarest shit, and really, who needs that? Even a non-geared 80 can make decent gold running dailies..... I'd make easily a few hundred gold in less than an hour. Plus, now you can accumulate champion badges at the tournament and buy heirloom gear to twink your own low levels, my druid is using some heirloom gear because it gives xp bonuses for leveling. Still, back when my hunter was running Arathi he was my highest toon and still had fun in the BG, just gotta realize that you are gonna get killed... alot. It can still be fun though. If you play Horde you will see loads more teamwork in BGs, which is why, at least when I was playing, horde won BGs alot more often than allies.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;368146These online games sound rather repetitive and dull. Where's the adventure, the creativity?
Well, so far in
Star Trek I have resuced the crew of a stricken freighter from Orion pirates, unmasked a member of Species 8472 masquerading as a Vulcan ambassador (during a running gun battle with Klingons who had taken over a Vulcan monestary), helped fight off a major attack on Starbase 24, explored several star systems looking for trilithium (while fighting off more Klingons) and designed my own alien race, from their appearance to the perks and special abilities they have (admittedly, not an ENTIRE race, just my Captain, but still...). Also fought a handful of Borg during the "training" part of the game. There's more, but that's what stands out so far.
Also, I designed my own uniforms.
Then again, I know that EVENTUALLY it'll turn into a grind-fest, but I'm cool with that. It is the journey, after all, not the destination.
Quote from: Sigmund;368196Honestly, I just didn't see that much of a problem with this. I did the Arathi Highlands BG at 39 and did just fine. Sure, I wasn't getting the stats of the hardcore BG players but that wasn't my goal, and I wasn't getting killed every couple seconds either. Plus, honestly, even low level twink gear is not expensive at all, except for the absolutely rarest shit, and really, who needs that? Even a non-geared 80 can make decent gold running dailies..... I'd make easily a few hundred gold in less than an hour. Plus, now you can accumulate champion badges at the tournament and buy heirloom gear to twink your own low levels, my druid is using some heirloom gear because it gives xp bonuses for leveling. Still, back when my hunter was running Arathi he was my highest toon and still had fun in the BG, just gotta realize that you are gonna get killed... alot. It can still be fun though. If you play Horde you will see loads more teamwork in BGs, which is why, at least when I was playing, horde won BGs alot more often than allies.
I'm not really coimplaining; i play wow fully expectant to not involve myself in pvp. But i would say that pvp and pve wow are almost two totally different games. You cannot take a pve character into pvp and reasonably expect to do that well, not without some serious work. That's fine if that's what you want, but it's not really for me. I may in the future get bored of pve (i much prefer pve anyway) and try a pvp character full guns blazing, but it would be nice if the two forms of wow could be more integrated. Thus your azeroth adventuring toon has more backstory to his pvp, which is ultimately what it's about. The pvp reflects the conflict inherent in the setting.
I know plenty of people ship gear/money between alts. I do it myself, but then it took a while to convince myself that wasn't 'cheating' (it isn't, but it somehow just didn't seem right to me).
Quote from: Werekoala;368222Then again, I know that EVENTUALLY it'll turn into a grind-fest, but I'm cool with that. It is the journey, after all, not the destination.
A great philosophy to live by.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;368232I'm not really coimplaining; i play wow fully expectant to not involve myself in pvp. But i would say that pvp and pve wow are almost two totally different games. You cannot take a pve character into pvp and reasonably expect to do that well, not without some serious work. That's fine if that's what you want, but it's not really for me. I may in the future get bored of pve (i much prefer pve anyway) and try a pvp character full guns blazing, but it would be nice if the two forms of wow could be more integrated. Thus your azeroth adventuring toon has more backstory to his pvp, which is ultimately what it's about. The pvp reflects the conflict inherent in the setting.
I know plenty of people ship gear/money between alts. I do it myself, but then it took a while to convince myself that wasn't 'cheating' (it isn't, but it somehow just didn't seem right to me).
Oh no, I'm with ya. Personally, I almost always hate PvP. I never gear my toons for PvP. BGs are just fun sometimes when I'm bored running dailies or waiting for guildies to get on for instances/raids. Plus, to get the "Chef" title, ya have to lay down a feast in every BG. Stuff like that. I'm very very far from a good PvP player. Just saying depending on your class it isn't all that bad to do without being super PvP geared. Plus, I really found it much more fun while playing the Horde side. If I were to get back into the game now, I'd most likely switch my hunter over to Horde.