One Eee the Fighter and Four Eee the Fighter have a discussion.
One Eee "I was born knowing how to wear Platemail. Scale! Ha!"
Four Eee "I was born tough enough to take more than one hit with a sword. Ha!"
One Eee "I know how to Fish, as well as fight"
Four Eee "I have SKILLS, lots of them"
One Eee "But you can't fish, can you?"
Four Eee "I can actually protect my scrawny wizard friend"
One Eee "I don't have to...my wizard friend kills with one spell"
Four Eee "I have fancy powers you can only dream about"
One Eee "My magic items are powerful"
Four Eee "I can heal fully from any wounds in 10 minutes..without a Cleric"
One Eee ".....!@#$\&$@!"
Four Eee "Don't feel bad, I have weak Will and you are owned by Magic."
One Eee "I get a Keep and followers"
Four Eee "I get to be a demigod"
One Eee "Hey, is it true you are not actually called a Fighter?"
Four Eee "Yes, I am actually a Weapon Master, and I have a brother called Slayer. You should have heard 'Warlord' bitching when he became 'Marshall'
One Eee "I win. I rolled 18/00 Strength and Psionics"
Four Eee ".....!@#$\&$@!"
I sometimes think that a 4e fighter is like a moviestar version starring in an FX-heavy film of an actual real 1e fighter.
AD&D 1e Fighter
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gG1gEHJTLD0/Tf6Lot6c3qI/AAAAAAAAEAI/XXfv-OETTNA/s1600/rexor.jpg)
D&D 4e Fighter
(http://www.canmag.com/images/front/movies2008/mummy38.jpg)
1E fighter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp1mzx5O4ao
4E fighter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aGvJW-0lcg
better example.
3rd Edition Fighter: "You guys both suck! I've got bonus feats! And I've got +2 to hit with longswords! Bitchin'!"
1st and 4th: "Shut up!"
3rd goes sulking in a corner.
3rd Edition Warblade: "That's all well and good, but can you shut down an anti-magic field with the BURNING FLAMES OF WILLPOWER?!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118274)
1st and 3rd: "Go back to your Anime Wuxia powertrip, munchkin!"
No these are;
1e Fighters, {Leads to Youtube, is fight between Hector & Achilles from the movie Troy};
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1slkFc7YBkc
4e Fighters, {Leads to Youtube, is a very bad Wuxia Martial arts movie, very old};
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixFPSfYytJs
please notice the fighters special powers in the 4e example, lol.
I must admit, the 4E fighter just doesn't do it for me.
1e http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ubpQE2IrG0
4e http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6EknwERf3o
Another 1e fighter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPiYBfTE1ec
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;5725081e http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ubpQE2IrG0
4e http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6EknwERf3o
I thought of Hero for 4e but not funny enough.
OD&D/AD&D 1e: For the Conan the Barbarian generation
AD&D 2e: For the Jim Henson's Storytellers generation
D&D 3e: For the Final Fantasy generation
D&D 4e: For the special snowflake generation
Quote from: Bill;571975One Eee "I know how to Fish, as well as fight"
Four Eee "I have SKILLS, lots of them"
One Eee "But you can't fish, can you?"
Four Eee "I grew up as a sailor, so why wouldn't I be able to fish?"
Quote from: Sommerjon;572529Four Eee "I grew up as a sailor, so why wouldn't I be able to fish?"
I had a discussion with a player the other day, and I attempted to explain that in 4E you don't have fishing skill for that exact reason.
I would never make a player roll a fishing skill roll anyway.
Quote from: Sommerjon;572529Four Eee "I grew up as a sailor, so why wouldn't I be able to fish?"
let's just gloss over the fact that I probably would allow anyone to attempt to fish, but just because you were a sailor doesn't mean you had ever fished before.
It's not like most sailors, especially on large ships, ever tossed a rod and reel over the side. They were usually busy doing other stuff. This is compounded that many sailors were forced to do so and didn't have much choice on their career field.
It's like saying, "Oh, you're a race car driver? You should totally know how to be a mechanic too then."
Join the Navy, see the world. By the way, the world is 70% water and you're going to see all of it.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;572535let's just gloss over the fact that I probably would allow anyone to attempt to fish, but just because you were a sailor doesn't mean you had ever fished before.
It's not like most sailors, especially on large ships, ever tossed a rod and reel over the side. They were usually busy doing other stuff. This is compounded that many sailors were forced to do so and didn't have much choice on their career field.
It's like saying, "Oh, you're a race car driver? You should totally know how to be a mechanic too then."
fantasy>
Quote from: Sommerjon;572540fantasy>
So what? What does that have to do with assuming skills of professions that might not have ever used that skill?
Real life example: When people heard I could program computers, they all asked me why I wasn't the owner of Microsoft, making lots of money like Bill Gates was?
True story; semi related.
A friend of mine who is an artist that mainly did paintings....
He told someone he was a painter.
They asked "Interior or Exterior?" ha!
But yea, a lot of sailors historically did not know how to swim.
OK guys. Stop it with the blind links. These aren't allowed on the RPG Site. You should describe what the link is about, where it leads to, etc along with the link. We've established that before.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;572542So what? What does that have to do with assuming skills of professions that might not have ever used that skill?
Because D&D is not historical re-enactments.
You are the one assuming skills because of historical accounts of life on earth. That has absolutely nothing to do with a D&D.
Quote from: Benoist;572554OK guys. Stop it with the blind links. These aren't allowed on the RPG Site. You should describe what the link is about, where it leads to, etc along with the link. We've established that before.
My apologies, I will comply with that in the future.
Quote from: Bill;572553But yea, a lot of sailors historically did not know how to swim.
a lot is a very relative term here.
No worries. Just think about it in the future. Like...
Here's a 1e fighter vid in 13th warrior! (//http//linkylink.com)
That's described enough: you know what it is, what type of page (vid) it is. That kind of thing. Doesn't need to be a novel, see? :)
PS: That link is just an example. It doesn't actually link anywhere.
Quote from: Sommerjon;572556Because D&D is not historical re-enactments.
You are the one assuming skills because of historical accounts of life on earth. That has absolutely nothing to do with a D&D.
Just because D&D is D&D doesn't mean you can make assumptions the other way. I mean, that's exactly what you just did. You assumed that a sailor would be good at fishing. Not based on D&D (because it's not listed anywhere in D&D that a sailor is also a skilled fisherman), but because of your own perception on real life. Now that you were wrong about it, you're trying to evade by throwing out a really bad red herring.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;572535let's just gloss over the fact that I probably would allow anyone to attempt to fish, but just because you were a sailor doesn't mean you had ever fished before.
It's not like most sailors, especially on large ships, ever tossed a rod and reel over the side. They were usually busy doing other stuff. This is compounded that many sailors were forced to do so and didn't have much choice on their career field.
It's like saying, "Oh, you're a race car driver? You should totally know how to be a mechanic too then."
This is the problem that background skills present though - agreeing on the scope of the skill.
The reductio version:
"I grew up as a carpenter's apprentice, I should be able to fix this door up so it'll protect us when the zombies come tonight..."
"Well, I was a ninja's apprentice, so I should be able to apply the five-point exploding heart technique!"
I mean, that's terrible, but smaller problems like that do tend to come up. This is why I was never happy with the AD&D secondary skills system, for example, though something even slightly more specific mitigates this considerably.
In D&D all racecar drivers automatically are car mechanics (no penalty). That's a given that everyone knows (even those that play other RPGs know this fact about D&D).
Quote from: Benoist;572554OK guys. Stop it with the blind links. These aren't allowed on the RPG Site. You should describe what the link is about, where it leads to, etc along with the link. We've established that before.
Where are the forum rules?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;572565Just because D&D is D&D doesn't mean you can make assumptions the other way. I mean, that's exactly what you just did. You assumed that a sailor would be good at fishing. Not based on D&D (because it's not listed anywhere in D&D that a sailor is also a skilled fisherman), but because of your own perception on real life. Now that you were wrong about it, you're trying to evade by throwing out a really bad red herring.
Your assertions are based purely upon a small percentage of ships/sailors relative to the number of ships playing the seas. There was thousands of small sailing craft that plied the oceans where the sailors were also fishermen. You have whole cities based upon it.
No I did not assume a sailor would be good at fishing I said that one particular character was a sailor who knew how to fish, you are the one making the absurd jump of me saying sailor = fishermen.
Careful. If you backpedal too hard, you may run into something.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;572603Careful. If you backpedal too hard, you may run into something.
Which post is me backpedaling?
1.
Four Eee "I grew up as a sailor, so why wouldn't I be able to fish?"2.
3.
Because D&D is not historical re-enactments.
You are the one assuming skills because of historical accounts of life on earth. That has absolutely nothing to do with a D&D.4.
a lot is a very relative term here.5.
Your assertions are based purely upon a small percentage of ships/sailors relative to the number of ships plying the seas. There was thousands of small sailing craft that plied the oceans where the sailors were also fishermen. You have whole cities based upon it.
No I did not assume a sailor would be good at fishing I said that one particular character was a sailor who knew how to fish, you are the one making the absurd jump of me saying sailor = fishermen.
Quote from: Sommerjon;572701Which post is me backpedaling?
So instead of us playing the "Implied vs. Inferred" game (which you seem to really like provoking), lets go with this.
In a thread contrasting 1e with 4e, why would you make a statement like that?
What were you trying to say about the 4e system, if anything?
What specific aspect of the 4e system were you talking about, if any?
Turns in 1e are pretty abstract, so you can't really nail down the martial 'beats' all that well.
Though the Robin Hood fight definitely maps to Burning Wheel spectacularly, complete with people rolling around on the ground in pain and struggling just to stay in the fight.
Quote from: CRKrueger;572703So instead of us playing the "Implied vs. Inferred" game (which you seem to really like provoking), lets go with this.
In a thread contrasting 1e with 4e, why would you make a statement like that?
What were you trying to say about the 4e system, if anything?
What specific aspect of the 4e system were you talking about, if any?
Backgrounds
Quote from: Sommerjon;572701Which post is me backpedaling?
1. Four Eee "I grew up as a sailor, so why wouldn't I be able to fish?"
2.
3. Because D&D is not historical re-enactments.
You are the one assuming skills because of historical accounts of life on earth. That has absolutely nothing to do with a D&D.
You seriously can't see it? You're making an assumption based on a real life perception you have. When shown to you how that assumption is not correct, you say "don't make assumptions based on real life because it's D&D".
Wow. You had literally just said not to do something you had just done.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;572760You seriously can't see it? You're making an assumption based on a real life perception you have. When shown to you how that assumption is not correct, you say "don't make assumptions based on real life because it's D&D".
Wow. You had literally just said not to do something you had just done.
You didn't show anything about not being correct.
You said in response to me first post
"let's just gloss over the fact that I probably would allow anyone to attempt to fish, but just because you were a sailor doesn't mean you had ever fished before.
It's not like most sailors, especially on large ships, ever tossed a rod and reel over the side. They were usually busy doing other stuff. This is compounded that many sailors were forced to do so and didn't have much choice on their career field.
It's like saying, "Oh, you're a race car driver? You should totally know how to be a mechanic too then." "Lets tear this apart.
"but just because you were a sailor doesn't mean you had ever fished before."You are 100% correct. But it doesn't mean you haven't.
"It's not like most sailors, especially on large ships, ever tossed a rod and reel over the side."So is every ship large? gosh no they ain't so who gives a shit. What about those thousands of small fishing vessels where they did toss over lines? You know the ones that had sails and oars? Don't they get a vote or is it just large ships?
"They were usually busy doing other stuff. This is compounded that many sailors were forced to do so and didn't have much choice on their career field." Perhaps they were busy doing other stuff, so? more than just large ships on the waters. Oh here is this shit about large ships again.
Guess what there is more than large ships on the seas. and shhh, don't tell anyone, not everyone of them were forced to be on large ships. crazy ain't it.
"It's like saying, "Oh, you're a race car driver? You should totally know how to be a mechanic too then.""No actually it's not even close.
Are all fishermen sailors? No. Are the odds heavily in your favor of a sailor also being a fishermen? Yes.
Quote from: Benoist;572554OK guys. Stop it with the blind links. These aren't allowed on the RPG Site. You should describe what the link is about, where it leads to, etc along with the link. We've established that before.
Done fixed mine. Sorry.
Quote from: Sommerjon;572560a lot is a very relative term here.
Sure it is relative, but I just wanted to admit I had been falsely assuming all sailors can fish, etc..
I realize now that is not correct.