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[5e] What became of Charge?

Started by Jorunkun, July 30, 2014, 09:00:55 PM

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Batman

#15
July 31, 2014, 10:42:16 AM
Quote from: Marleycat;773715From what I've read Charge was removed to avoid all those cheesy charge builds in 4e and it's not particularly needed anyway given the fact you can move and attack in whatever combination and probably just Dash and attack possibly.

I think it was far more prevalent in 3e with Paladins and Barbarians. Leap/power attack w/ pounce was devastating.
" I\'m Batman "

Bill

#16
July 31, 2014, 10:45:00 AM
Quote from: Batman;773907I think it was far more prevalent in 3e with Paladins and Barbarians. Leap/power attack w/ pounce was devastating.

'Pounce' is a good example of how to bork your own game system.

3X assumes, in general, moving prevents full attacks/multiple attacks, especially for pc's.  (It does not really matter if a tiger pounces on a pc...whatever)

But when uber builds find a way to work in pounce, it's directly contrary to the 'you move, you get one attack' foundation of 3x combat.

Just my opinion.

Marleycat

#17
July 31, 2014, 11:31:21 AM
Quote from: Batman;773907I think it was far more prevalent in 3e with Paladins and Barbarians. Leap/power attack w/ pounce was devastating.

Either way it's just better to leave it out though maybe it's that feat called Charger now?
Don\'t mess with cats we kill wizards in one blow.;)

jadrax

#18
July 31, 2014, 11:48:17 AM
Quote from: Marleycat;773936Either way it's just better to leave it out though maybe it's that feat called Charger now?

In the Alpha, Charger basically allowed you to take a free melee (with a +5 Damage bonus) or shove attack (double shove distance) whenever you made a Dash of over 10 feet and ended up next to the enemy.

Not sure it is cool enough an idea to blow a feat on tbh, but I am sure someone will like it.


In the Starter Set, orc's get the following Special Ability which is much better (although still worse than a Rogue's Cunning Action).

Aggressive. As a bonus action, the orc can move up to its speed toward a hostile creature that it can see.

Marleycat

#19
July 31, 2014, 12:11:06 PM Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 12:14:13 PM by Marleycat
I think that if they keep it similar to that it should be workable. We'll see soon enough. Might be good for a Valor bard or barbarian or monk. Classes that are martial but looking for a little extra trick.
Don\'t mess with cats we kill wizards in one blow.;)

Sacrosanct

#20
July 31, 2014, 12:22:32 PM
The description of the feat in Alpha:

When you use your action to Dash, you can use a bonus action to make one melee weapon attack or shove a creature.
If you move at least 10 feet in a straight line immediately before taking this bonus action, you either gain a +5 bonus to damage or push the target up to 10 feet.

The way it's worded tells me you can't move, dash, attack, and also charge attack.  Your core action has to be a dash, so something like cunning action wouldn't work because the dash for that is the bonus action.  You only ever get one bonus action per turn.

This also applies to action surge, I believe, since you already did your bonus action for that turn.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

Larsdangly

#21
July 31, 2014, 12:32:00 PM
Quote from: Marleycat;773896There's no marking in the game so without it charging with bonuses in combination with action surge, cunning action, maneuvers equals game broken and over.

If your game has so many game-able build elements that you don't dare let someone with a spear benefit from charging (like they would in a sane game...), then you've gone too far and need to turn around and come back.

1of3

#22
July 31, 2014, 12:44:20 PM
They announced a feat called Charger for the PHB. It was in the playtest at one point. So you either have a class that grants extra movement or take that feat.

jadrax

#23
July 31, 2014, 01:26:42 PM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;773966The way it's worded tells me you can't move, dash, attack, and also charge attack.  Your core action has to be a dash, so something like cunning action wouldn't work because the dash for that is the bonus action. You only ever get one bonus action per turn.

This is correct.

It's why I prefer Aggressive (or Cunning Action), you get to Move, Dash (as a Bonus action) and then Attack (as your regular action). Which means it combines better with Extra Attack, Multi-attack or even casting touch spells.

Opaopajr

#24
July 31, 2014, 05:21:46 PM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;773966The description of the feat in Alpha:

When you use your action to Dash, you can use a bonus action to make one melee weapon attack or shove a creature.
If you move at least 10 feet in a straight line immediately before taking this bonus action, you either gain a +5 bonus to damage or push the target up to 10 feet.

The way it's worded tells me you can't move, dash, attack, and also charge attack.  Your core action has to be a dash, so something like cunning action wouldn't work because the dash for that is the bonus action.  You only ever get one bonus action per turn.

This also applies to action surge, I believe, since you already did your bonus action for that turn.

I doubt whatever we are commenting from the alpha will remain, but if that is kept the native wording on that feat itself grants the bonus action. Which  is quite powerful all on its own, as it is double move + attack or render prone — bonus damage if you get a straight away.

Pedantic fun time, it does not apply to Action Surge, which is its own additional action, period, full stop. "On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action." (5e Basic .pdf, as of July 2014, pg. 25, col. 1.) So happy, fun charge times are had by all, well, pretty much fighters, but yeah.

Also note the same application of 'you can' as a grantor clause, in place of 'gives you', 'supplies you', etc. This has become quite standard in CCGs parlance of late. So Charger is quite the frightening feat from alpha, hope they change it.
Just make your fuckin\' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what\'s interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it\'s more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

Opaopajr

#25
July 31, 2014, 05:39:31 PM
Quote from: Marleycat;773893You can attack and move up to your movement in any order though. Dash is a seperate thing. And yes there is a reason why all sorts of people are trying to figure out if taking 2 levels of fighter for Second Wind and Action Surge the new thing. Also Cunning Action is deadly.

Of course, you can break up your movement now, which seems to be a new thing for WotC D&D. Which is very good. With that and Disengage nulling AoO traps that should avoid 3e's endless decision "5' step forever, or puppy piles!"

And yeah, that was quite obvious to my friends and I that 2 levels of fighter is the multi-class hotness. Free HP and additional actions every other hour? As a multi-classer, sign me up! What delay on the adventure? Buy a cart, rent hirelings, and rest in the back already, fools! We're power leveling today!
Just make your fuckin\' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what\'s interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it\'s more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

Opaopajr

#26
July 31, 2014, 05:42:14 PM
Quote from: Marleycat;773893You can attack and move up to your movement in any order though. Dash is a seperate thing. And yes there is a reason why all sorts of people are trying to figure out if taking 2 levels of fighter for Second Wind and Action Surge the new thing. Also Cunning Action is deadly.

Of course, you can break up your movement now, which seems to be a new thing for WotC D&D. Which is very good. With that and Disengage nulling AoO traps that should avoid 3e's endless decision "5' step forever, or puppy piles!"

And yeah, that was quite obvious to my friends and I that 2 levels of fighter is the multi-class hotness. Free HP and additional actions every other hour? As a multi-classer, sign me up! "What delay on the adventure? Buy a cart, rent hirelings, and rest in the back already, fools! We're power leveling today!"
Just make your fuckin\' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what\'s interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it\'s more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

Sacrosanct

#27
July 31, 2014, 05:55:34 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;774103I doubt whatever we are commenting from the alpha will remain, but if that is kept the native wording on that feat itself grants the bonus action. Which  is quite powerful all on its own, as it is double move + attack or render prone — bonus damage if you get a straight away.

Pedantic fun time, it does not apply to Action Surge, which is its own additional action, period, full stop. "On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action." (5e Basic .pdf, as of July 2014, pg. 25, col. 1.) So happy, fun charge times are had by all, well, pretty much fighters, but yeah.

Also note the same application of 'you can' as a grantor clause, in place of 'gives you', 'supplies you', etc. This has become quite standard in CCGs parlance of late. So Charger is quite the frightening feat from alpha, hope they change it.

Right, so since we know that you can only have a total of 1 bonus action per round, it mitigates the worries mentioned above re: the 3e broken chain of actions.  You can't use charge and get the bonus attack and use cunning action in the same round.  They are both bonus actions.  And while you could use action surge to go again, you can't charge twice in the same round because you only get the one bonus action.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

Opaopajr

#28
July 31, 2014, 06:28:25 PM
You forget that you can break up movement any way you wish, and order your attacks within as such. So as long as you can get an additional action from somewhere, (Action Surge, 5th lvl Fighter Extra Action, etc.) you can easily "charge" twice. Note the wording has no requirements on distance, just that you Dash as an action and bonus damage granted for a 10' straightaway.

Dash into target, bonus attack them, move the remainder of your Dash + Spd, use your additional action. Easy.

EDIT: Yes, it is not 3e level nonsense, but what ever really is? Rifts? ;)
Just make your fuckin\' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what\'s interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it\'s more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

Opaopajr

#29
July 31, 2014, 06:31:26 PM
Quote from: Marleycat;773893You can attack and move up to your movement in any order though. Dash is a seperate thing. And yes there is a reason why all sorts of people are trying to figure out if taking 2 levels of fighter for Second Wind and Action Surge the new thing. Also Cunning Action is deadly.

Of course, you can break up your movement now, which seems to be a new thing for WotC D&D. Which is very good. With that and Disengage nulling AoO traps that should avoid 3e's endless decision "5' step forever, or puppy piles!"

And yeah, that was quite obvious to my friends and I that 2 levels of fighter is the multi-class hotness. Free HP and additional actions every other hour? As a multi-classer, I'd say sign me up! "What delay on the adventure? Buy a cart, rent hirelings, and rest in the back already! We're power leveling today!"

But I personally don't like WotC multiclassing.
Just make your fuckin\' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what\'s interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it\'s more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman
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