Quote from: Opaopajr;1018606Welcome back, tenbones! :cool: Maiden 'AD&D 2e' has been waiting for you in the Sacred Unicorn Grove this whole time. Here, have a blesséd box set, and let's traipse back to La La Land!

Oh but I've developed a taste for Unicorn steak in my travels. La La Land is not without it's virtues either. But now I'll open a race-track so we can sprint around instead of traipsing like a ponce.

But traipsing is so very much like skipping. And skipping is ever so merry. Is this not what merry men do?

Quote from: Opaopajr;1018732But traipsing is so very much like skipping. And skipping is ever so merry. Is this not what merry men do?

Quote from: tenbones;1018709Oh but I've developed a taste for Unicorn steak in my travels. La La Land is not without it's virtues either. But now I'll open a race-track so we can sprint around instead of traipsing like a ponce.

When you two knuckleheads are done traipsing/poncing/toffing about with 2e, find your testicles and come back to 1e.

Quote from: tenbones;1018596Since you asked... (and I'll stipulate these are strictly just my opinions)

My tastes have changed and those tastes didn't change with the way the D&D editions evolved. I did a lot of design stuff for the 3e era, waged edition-wars with the best (i.e. worst) nerdzerkers. And I came to realize how over-wrought the whole thing had become and how bad the math was and ultimately the game had mutated into something else.

Like a prodigal child I didn't realize how much St. Gary and his crew of scalawags *really* understood about their system that jackass upstarts like myself didn't realize going into 3e and beyond. Well with the surge in new players, D&D has transformed into a freak-show of sorts by implication, an oddity that isn't generally as informed by fantasy as much as become trapped in its own conceits as it's own "thing". Each edition wandered a little bit further into solidifying this emergent D&D-as-its-own genre, to the point that a casual pass at 3.x/4e doesn't really comport with the assumptions of any particular setting without implied weirdness. The emergence of MMO's has done a lot to impact this trajectory of design and its myriad of bad ideas. But that's another topic.
 
Ultimately I became less interested in trying to reconcile with the hottest flavor of D&D (or Pathfinder) and simply looked elsewhere for other systemic options for fantasy, and ultimately non-fantasy RPGs.

5e has done a *lot* to alleviate this... but enough time and distance has created opportunities to explore other options of what I want mechanically. And like that prodigal child - I'm a little wiser, a hell of a lot older, less "orthodox" in my approach to gaming in general. Lesson's learned and all that.

And so - I've "let" go of D&D as *my D&D*. I'm less interested in system-fidelity as I am in good mechanics that give me the gameplay I want. I've found other systems that let me approximate many of the various fantasy sub-genres, including D&D's settings, *better* than the current 5e ruleset at my table. I like to have rules that enhance my gameplay not *be* the game.

I'm not knocking D&D at all, mind you. I'm just saying as a GM, were I to come back to the House of Gygax, I would do so with humility, hat in hand, like a good prodigal son. I would pick up 1e/2e and start there and tweak, and the only major differences would be 10/10+ split in game assumptions. But I'd try to cleave closer to Gary and Dave's ideas at a lower scale that what is assumed today rather than trying to get as far away from them as possible. But that pretty much means by that definition - I'm out on 5e (and anything else post 2e.)

In the meantime - I'm perfectly happy with the systems I'm indulging in now.

Preach it, brother! I too have long since parted ways with D&D.  5e fixes some things, sort of. It's not bad. But like someone wiser than me once stated, it's like D&D has disappeared up its own ass.  It has become a genre unto itself, and it doesn't really resemble the blank canvas game that I grew up with that could be Greek myth, or Camelot, or Middle Earth or whatever you wanted it to be.  If I want fantasy, there are more open games with better mechanics, and if I really want D&D, there's BX, 1e or a half dozen great OSR games that are better than 5e at delivering that experience.

In my mind, the best thing to come out of 5e is Adventures in Middle earth - D&D without spellcasting is at least enough of a hook to keep me interested.

If I wanted a simple version of D&D I'd play Beyond the Wall or B/X, not 1e.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1018761When you two knuckleheads are done traipsing/poncing/toffing about with 2e, find your testicles and come back to 1e.

But 1e has complicated grappling rules. Doing so that way may take awhile...

Quote from: Opaopajr;1018821But 1e has complicated grappling rules. Doing so that way may take awhile...

And try and parse the iniative rules.

1e is a significantly more complex game than 5e. Monsters are easier to abbreviate if they don't do anything special, and a 1st-level character is quicker to put together, but otherwise, 1e has a lot more fiddly bits in play.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;10188421e is a significantly more complex game than 5e. Monsters are easier to abbreviate if they don't do anything special, and a 1st-level character is quicker to put together, but otherwise, 1e has a lot more fiddly bits in play.

This gets back to the old question of 'what is complexity?' Anything from late 2e onward is going to have more character creation options. 4e is the most divergent so for someone with a 'base generic understanding of D&D' it probably has the steepest learning curve. OD&D has some highly ambiguous language, so parsing that could be considered complexity. But for number of rule (that are not just specific variations on a central premise) 1e and 3e have the most, while I'd say 5e and B/X have the least (not sure where to put oD&D, it could also be in the least category). 1e AD&D and 3.x D&D both tried somewhat hard to be low-resolution world emulators, and the result is a very complex game if you keep all the rules turned on.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1018761When you two knuckleheads are done traipsing/poncing/toffing about with 2e, find your testicles and come back to 1e.

I use 1e pretty freely in my 2e. So it goes without saying... I'd be using both.

But I still feel I can make the perfect skin of the cat. There is a fantasy-heartbreaker of epic proportions to be made that exists by taking 1e/2e and making some good tweaks to it. That game is not 5e (but I'm thinking the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic would be a nice lift from it).

It'll happen one day. And everyone will say "OMG - this is best iteration of D&D EVARRRRrrrrrRR!!!" - said every heartbreaker designer!

Quote from: Opaopajr;1018821But 1e has complicated grappling rules. Doing so that way may take awhile...

I would use Roger E. Moore's Open Hand fighting rules from Dragon Magazine #83 "How to finish fights faster". That problem was long solved for me.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1016850Overall, I think 5e is easily the best edition in at least 30 years, and hope it sticks around in some form or another for at least as long as AD&D did.

I remember all the fuss about 5e before its release. Turns out, 5e is just an improved version of 2e is all. You rarely hear about how bad 2e was. So 5e is selling well, just as it should be. I'm thinking a 6e will not be produced for awhile, because reasons.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1018847This gets back to the old question of 'what is complexity?' Anything from late 2e onward is going to have more character creation options. 4e is the most divergent so for someone with a 'base generic understanding of D&D' it probably has the steepest learning curve. OD&D has some highly ambiguous language, so parsing that could be considered complexity. But for number of rule (that are not just specific variations on a central premise) 1e and 3e have the most, while I'd say 5e and B/X have the least (not sure where to put oD&D, it could also be in the least category). 1e AD&D and 3.x D&D both tried somewhat hard to be low-resolution world emulators, and the result is a very complex game if you keep all the rules turned on.

Yes.  Furthermore, as you allude above, the complexity is not evenly spread in each edition.  It is true that there are some relatively complex parts in 5E, compared to those same parts in other versions.  Usually, they happen to coincide with where I want a little complexity spent on options.  Therefore, I don't mind them.  Mileage, varies.  In contrast, 3E isn't as grossly complex as it is sometimes made out to be, but I don't particular value where it spends its "complexity capital".  Part of the charm of AD&D (especially 1E) is the complexity of certain pieces in how they are presented.  Sometimes I'm up for that, sometimes not.  Even RC is a swath of multi-layered complexity wrapped around a dead simple core, though most of the complexity is clearly optional.

From a Game Store Worker's perspective......

People Like it, I mean they REALLY Like it.

The low price point on the starter box has helped a LOT (20 bucks American) - plus the fact that the adenture or scenario book in that is pretty damn Good.

The current or new versions of the main three books look good and we have an ongoing discount price on those. We sold a TON of Starter box sets, Player Handbooks , and Dungeon Masters Guide during Hanukkah and right before the Christmas Holiday break week.
Based on that there seemed to be a Huge amount of people planning to start campaigns during the Holidays or do one shot sessions with friends and family that they hadn't seen in a while.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1018891I remember all the fuss about 5e before its release. Turns out, 5e is just an improved version of 2e is all. You rarely hear about how bad 2e was. So 5e is selling well, just as it should be. I'm thinking a 6e will not be produced for awhile, because reasons.

I agree with you on all counts here. I like to think of 5E as a return to AD&D, but as you noted it probably is a lot closer to 2E than 1E. Either way, I think they removed enough of the 3E/4E stuff to make it one of my favorite versions of the game.