Quote from: Bren;873934I don't remember how surprise works in AD&D. Is the AD&D surprise roll 1d6 rolled for each side like it was in OD&D?

The die mechanics alone was d10 based with 30% chance to be surprised (value of 1, 2, 3 means surprised). Then modifiers of stat, race, situation, etc. is added as relevant. There is a question of facing/attention as you mentioned, but that's suggested to be a matter of two things: 1) deciding who gets to roll, and 2) what modifiers if any are relevant. As for which sides, the roll can effect any number of sides, as contextually relevant.

The nice thing is that it was open ended on how to decide who gets to roll. There are three ways for the GM to use: a) one roll for the party, b) a roll for each member, or c) a roll for selected members. And it was discussed beforehand that obvious tells (cavalry's dust cloud, villagers' lantern light) should obviate the need for the surprise roll.

Context and Feature Modifiers are at this point self-explanatory to those familiar with RPGs.

Speaking to your lament about systems not accounting for sheer attempt numbers, nor the attention of PCs, that was actually covered by that chapter's commentary in AD&D 2e. It talked about how it's GM's purview to assesses context for who rolls and with what mods. In fact they gave an example to illustrate how to apply such judgment before the dice are rolled:

The example is of a party watching a vista where the dust cloud of cavalry was approaching the party's forest position. But, since the party is preoccupied by observing this obvious encounter that needs no surprise roll, no one was paying attention to the treetops for danger. And thus when a panther pounces upon the PCs from above the GM determines that option A, one suprise roll for the party, is used... and so on.

Overall it is a clean method because it speaks separately of not only die mechanics and their modification, but of the (I think more valuable) skills of relevant usage and targeted application.
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Basically all I am adding is using the SW d6 chart for random selection within option C. It may help against any appearance of bias. Hope that helps!

Quote from: Opaopajr;874006The die mechanics alone was d10 based with 30% chance to be surprised

Thanks. That is different than what I remember.

QuoteSpeaking to your lament about systems not accounting for sheer attempt numbers, nor the attention of PCs, that was actually covered by that chapter's commentary in AD&D 2e. It talked about how it's GM's purview to assesses context for who rolls and with what mods. In fact they gave an example to illustrate how to apply such judgment before the dice are rolled:

The example is of a party watching a vista where the dust cloud of cavalry was approaching the party's forest position. But, since the party is preoccupied by observing this obvious encounter that needs no surprise roll, no one was paying attention to the treetops for danger. And thus when a panther pounces upon the PCs from above the GM determines that option A, one suprise roll for the party, is used... and so on.

Overall it is a clean method because it speaks separately of not only die mechanics and their modification, but of the (I think more valuable) skills of relevant usage and targeted application.

GM purview isn't what I meant by system. Every RPG* includes GM purview. System would include specific mechanics or modifiers to address the issue.

QuoteBasically all I am adding is using the SW d6 chart for random selection within option C. It may help against any appearance of bias. Hope that helps!

What you added was a system element that would assist in addressing a systemic gap. That's exactly the sort of thing that is needed.



* "Every RPG" means every RPG that I have read, played, ran, or wanted to play or run. If there is some RPG that has no GM purview I don't want anything to do with it.

In Galaxies in Shadow, I used management skill rolls to determine who rolled.

On an exceptional success you use the best skill in the group.  On a normal success you use the median skill in the group.  On a marginal success you use the worst skill in the group.  On a failure you use the individual skills with individual results.  On an exceptional failure, your team is so busy yelling at each other that nothing gets done.

Quote from: David Johansen;874054In Galaxies in Shadow, I used management skill rolls to determine who rolled.

Can you explain what management skill rolls are? It sounds like business speak for what I might call Leadership or Command in a typical RPG.

QuoteOn an exceptional success you use the best skill in the group.  On a normal success you use the median skill in the group.  On a marginal success you use the worst skill in the group.  On a failure you use the individual skills with individual results.  On an exceptional failure, your team is so busy yelling at each other that nothing gets done.

Thanks! While this may not exactly address things the way I might prefer, if written up as a rule (house or otherwise) this would be a system solution.

Well that GM purview being spelled out with three appliable methods beforehand has cut short nonsense that I've seen arisen on other tables with other systems. You'd think it would be self-evident that you can apply a mechanic to "all, some, or one" (in this case: group, all individuals, some individuals). But the current paradigm seems to have changed over the years from cultural training.

Now it's common to see a hidebound system-permission based reading of texts. If the system doesn't say it is often assumed that RAW doesn't allow. And this is often assumed for consistency across tables. (Which likely derived from tourament modules and Org Play to ensure equitable challenge across the community.) So without defining that there are alternates to targeting parameters you are going to get a strict text reading if only one style is explained in example.

It's an applied judgment commentary that has evolved into being seen as its own rule, sadly. Note how Surprise has migrated in 3e and 4e until the point we now have a correction into a nigh 'mechanics and guidance free' version for 5e. The allowed targeting of a [dice] mechanic is still part of system resolution (this is core knowledge to any CCG player). In fact, it is an inseparable part of system.