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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: S'mon on January 12, 2016, 12:44:53 PM

Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: S'mon on January 12, 2016, 12:44:53 PM
http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/SRD-OGL_V1.1.pdf
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: S'mon on January 12, 2016, 12:45:52 PM
Uses the 2000 OGL, I see. Sweet. :cool:
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Warthur on January 12, 2016, 01:09:10 PM
They seem to be playing it smart this time. Essentially, you can use the new OGL, and that lets you design and put out your own 5E D&D products (including your own campaign worlds) just fine.

At the same time, they've got a new Dungeon Master's Guild (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/dungeon-masters-guild-now-open), which works on a different basis - you can't self-publish DM Guild stuff and you can't put out your own campaign world through it, but you can write Forgotten Realms material for it, you get to sell your product on the DM Guild website (basically a new section of OneBookShelf, kind of like dndclassics but for new third-party stuff instead of old first-party stuff), and stuff you put out through that avenue will be considered by Wizards for use in promoting D&D and inclusion in more "official" supplements and videogames.

The DM Guild is obviously a bad deal for publishers and anyone who wants to keep control of their own work, but cleverly Wizards aren't presenting it like that - instead, they're pushing it as a way for DMs and hobbyists to put out their stuff in a venue which will be visible to the wider D&D community and get a shot at some official love from the game's publishers, which if you just want to put out a few kewl new classes you and your buddies have cooked up and dig the idea of competing for Wizards' attention and approval is just fine. You can charge for your stuff and the money is split 50-25-25, with you getting half, OBS getting 25%, and Wizards getting 25%, so if your product is a runaway success you'll still get a healthy cut of the coin (whilst of course for their part Wizards will profit off all sales of everything on the store).

On top of that, based on the more complete explanation on the site (http://www.dmsguild.com/whatisdmsguild.php) it looks like if you're cooking up DM Guild products you'll get access to a bunch of content and resources to draw on in producing your product, and also whatever you put out on there will become available for other people to draw on in their own products, which sounds like it could open up the way for some really interesting collaborative worldbuilding. Or, of course, some really awful competitive worldsmashing, we'll have to see. It also looks to be curated for appropriate content by Wizards, so you'll have to take the OGL route for the 5E Book of Erotic Fantasy you've been writing. Neatly, there's no poison pill this time - getting into the DM Guild doesn't stop you putting out other products under the OGL.

What I find clever about this is that there's no publisher-oriented equivalent this time of the D&D trademark licence. The OGL is decidedly publisher-friendly, but doesn't let you use the D&D trademark. The DM Guild is more for lone hobbyists who are either big enough fans that they don't mind Wizards having a stake in their work or who figure they can get more exposure through that route than by going their own way, or who really, really want to see the official D&D logo on their product. And of course you only get to put out PDFs via the official page, rather than the print product.

I guess Wizards have come to the conclusion that they can use the trademark as a badge of quality (which is really what trademarks are supposed to be used for in the first place) - keep an eye on the DM Guild PDFs that are coming out, splat anything which would make the game line look bad and push anything you think works well, and use the Guild as a think tank for producing top-notch content for more profitable venues, and you can let the third parties out there put out all the "Compatible with Fifth Edition" products they like; that way customers can be assured that the print products bearing your trademarks are of a standard you consider to be acceptable, and if they go dabble in OGL content then they know they're going into the Wild West.

In short, they've avoided the embarrassment of another D20 logo-bearing Book of Erotic Fantasy on the one hand whilst on the other put out a licence that's far more acceptable to publishers than the 4E one ever was. I like it.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Warthur on January 12, 2016, 01:13:03 PM
(The FAQ also hints that they might open up the DM Guild to other settings later, but for now it's strictly Forgotten Realms-only. Which is only fair - you can't seriously expect Wizards to let a random third party have 50% of the revenue on their homebrewed 5E Dark Sun/Planescape/Ravenloft/whatever core book and steal the thunder on an official release, after all.)
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: S'mon on January 12, 2016, 01:13:40 PM
Agreed Warthur, the strategy looks really good, and this is a really handy resource for players & GMs too.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Warthur on January 12, 2016, 01:29:48 PM
The SRD is also quite cunningly crafted; if you wanted to, I guess you could use it in conjunction with the free Basic D&D PDFs to add some extra classes and whatnot to your Basic 5E games, but at the same time it doesn't provide all the class options and a lot of other details, with the upshot that you couldn't use it by itself to run your own games whilst simultaneously putting enough out there to make third party products viable. As far as I can tell there's more or less no project you could possibly want to do with the OGL that you wouldn't be able to do, unless it involved ripping on people's product identity shamelessly or flat-out reprinting the 5E core books.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Alzrius on January 12, 2016, 02:10:31 PM
Quote from: Warthur;873138
at the same time it doesn't provide all the class options and a lot of other details


This strikes me as a very salient point. What's in the 5E SRD is greater than what's in the 5E Basic PDF (which is closed content anyway), but far less than what's in the Core Rulebooks. That is, the 5E SRD has only a single feat (grappler), only one sub-race for each race, and only one sub-class for each class. Heck, the warlock's eldritch blast spell isn't in there!

The draw for DM's Guild seems to be, if I'm reading it right, that material published under it can use any of the D&D 5E material that WotC has put out, OGL or not, so if you want to use other sub-races, sub-classes, feats, etc. if your adventure, then you absolutely can...but it will need to be a DM's Guild adventure, rather than an OGL one.

I have to admit, this is a brilliant move on WotC's part if they wanted to back away from how open the 3.X era of OGL materials was. Instead of trying to force people to not do something, they're giving just enough of what was asked for while simultaneously offering an incentive to do something else.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Opaopajr on January 12, 2016, 02:23:50 PM
Wow, this is a really interesting move. It's like a DIYers' dream vehicle — actually more like two of them. New settings and content here, expanding existing FR content there, a very sensible direction compared to before.

For all my complaints about Org Play adventures, it's an opportunity to pitch how I think LFR could be better and see if the market likes it.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Alzrius on January 12, 2016, 02:37:21 PM
Quote from: Alzrius;873145
Heck, the warlock's eldritch blast spell isn't in there!


So apparently Mike Mearls has tweeted (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?475360-The-Day-Has-Come!-It-s-An-OGL!-And-A-Store-To-Buy-amp-Sell-D-amp-D-5E-Products!&p=6797914&viewfull=1#post6797914) that this was an oversight. As such, it'll probably be fixed soon.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Haffrung on January 12, 2016, 02:51:16 PM
While I think this is a worthwhile endeavour to enable DMs to share their material, it's also more evidence to me that WotC is dramatically cutting the publishing output of D&D books, and is primarily interested simply in keeping the brand alive. And call me superficial and materialist, but one of the things I enjoy about the tabletop gaming hobby is being able to buy professionally-produced materials for inspiration and to use at my table. I'm at a state in my life when I'm willing and able to pay for commercial-quality gaming material. And this is just another signal that WotC is no longer in a position to supply it.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Necrozius on January 12, 2016, 02:54:12 PM
Is there a default 5e template for InDesign out there? A bunch of releases already in the marketplace seem to all use the same layout. I can't find anything like that anywhere on the site (just art packs).
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: slayride35 on January 12, 2016, 03:05:53 PM
Pointed this out to some friends putting together a 5e D&D game in Wyoming, as the information in here can help them set up their game with broader information than the basic free 5e. Thanks for the heads up.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Saplatt on January 12, 2016, 03:20:24 PM
Quote from: Haffrung;873152
... And call me superficial and materialist, but one of the things I enjoy about the tabletop gaming hobby is being able to buy professionally-produced materials for inspiration and to use at my table. I'm at a state in my life when I'm willing and able to pay for commercial-quality gaming material. And this is just another signal that WotC is no longer in a position to supply it.


I understand where you're coming from and, to some extent, I agree, but I think that some of the best stuff to emerge for 5E has already been made by third-party publishers, tip-toeing around the OGL. Primeval Thule is fantastic. Previews for the upcoming Kobold Press Tome of Beasts look great. Various other projects are already underway, ranging from rogue's galleries to new settings, one-shot adventures, expanded races, spell lists, etc. Some of the fan-based sites (like monster-a-day on reddit) are even better.

Yup, there will be a lot of junk, but there will be plenty of gems.

As for Wizards ... most of what I've heard people asking for consists of updates to their own settings. But I have to ask myself if I really need or want that. I already have the original materials and they aren't that hard to convert. And it just seems to me like I'd be paying a premium for re-canning a lot of stuff I already have.

Also, without getting into any deep political discussions, a lot of what WotC has done with the official 5th edition books seems very cautious in terms of keeping the products appropriate for a younger or more sensitive audience. That's fine as far as I'm concerned, but it's nice to know that we'll have alternatives available.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Haffrung on January 12, 2016, 03:48:28 PM
Quote from: Saplatt;873159
Previews for the upcoming Kobold Press Tome of Beasts look great.

Thanks for the heads-up. Kobold do quality work. I see that they're also putting out a Tome of Lairs, which is something I will definitely pick up. I just find it kind of sad that I've been turning to 4E and 3E books to find cool settings, NPCs, factions, gazetteers, etc., and do the conversions myself, when I'd happily pay WotC to do it for me.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Iosue on January 12, 2016, 04:10:17 PM
Quote from: Haffrung;873166
Thanks for the heads-up. Kobold do quality work. I see that they're also putting out a Tome of Lairs, which is something I will definitely pick up. I just find it kind of sad that I've been turning to 4E and 3E books to find cool settings, NPCs, factions, gazetteers, etc., and do the conversions myself, when I'd happily pay WotC to do it for me.


WotC's problem is that while you will pay for it, not enough other people will to give them a decent ROI.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on January 12, 2016, 04:30:38 PM
Quote from: Iosue;873168
WotC's problem is that while you will pay for it, not enough other people will to give them a decent ROI.


If there was a kickstarter campaign for any of the old D&D settings, it would reach the hundreds of thousands within the first week.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Haffrung on January 12, 2016, 04:36:39 PM
Quote from: Iosue;873168
WotC's problem is that while you will pay for it, not enough other people will to give them a decent ROI.

It looks like way. And it's looking like the 4E/Pathfinder era may have been the high water mark of RPG book publishing in terms of production values, professional content, and volume.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: P&P on January 12, 2016, 04:53:58 PM
This is a really good thing.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Akrasia on January 12, 2016, 05:44:41 PM
Quote from: Haffrung;873152
While I think this is a worthwhile endeavour to enable DMs to share their material, it's also more evidence to me that WotC is dramatically cutting the publishing output of D&D books, and is primarily interested simply in keeping the brand alive. And call me superficial and materialist, but one of the things I enjoy about the tabletop gaming hobby is being able to buy professionally-produced materials for inspiration and to use at my table. I'm at a state in my life when I'm willing and able to pay for commercial-quality gaming material. And this is just another signal that WotC is no longer in a position to supply it.


And I find that I can barely keep up with what WotC is publishing for 5e.  Hasn't there already been 3 different FR campaigns published since the rules came out 1.5 years ago? Plus the mini-campaign in the starter set, and the mini-campaigns that were published for D&D 'Next' (Murder in Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale)?

But D&D isn't really my main game these days, so perhaps you're right that there is a dearth of material being produced for it...
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Akrasia on January 12, 2016, 05:46:33 PM
Quote from: Saplatt;873159
Primeval Thule is fantastic.


Huh. I didn't realize that there was a 5e version of Primeval Thule.  I thought that it came out for 4e, Pathfinder, SW, and, perhaps, CoC...
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Saplatt on January 12, 2016, 06:55:59 PM
The 5E version of Thule was successfully kickstarted (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sasquatchgamestudio/primeval-thule-5e/description) a few months ago. The  hardcovers were shipped just before Christmas. There will also be a GMs supplement and a player's supplement - both in softcover. The pdf for the GM companion went out last month and the Player's Companion should come out sometime very soon.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: S'mon on January 12, 2016, 07:08:42 PM
Quote from: Saplatt;873196
The 5E version of Thule was successfully kickstarted (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sasquatchgamestudio/primeval-thule-5e/description) a few months ago. The  hardcovers were shipped just before Christmas. There will also be a GMs supplement and a player's supplement - both in softcover. The pdf for the GM companion went out last month and the Player's Companion should come out sometime very soon.


I played my first session of 5e Thule on Sunday - a raid on the Black Tower in Quodeth. The atmosphere seems good, very Howardesque Kull/Conan (more Kull than Conan I think). My mighty-thewed barbarian wrestled a giant snake. :D
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Lynn on January 12, 2016, 07:10:41 PM
Quote from: Saplatt;873196
The 5E version of Thule was successfully kickstarted (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sasquatchgamestudio/primeval-thule-5e/description) a few months ago. The  hardcovers were shipped just before Christmas. There will also be a GMs supplement and a player's supplement - both in softcover. The pdf for the GM companion went out last month and the Player's Companion should come out sometime very soon.


Yeah, I got my hardcover version of the 5e version and the GM's screen. It is a very nice campaign setting - post Atlantis, ancient world swords & sorcery type setting with sprinkles of Lovecraft and dinosaurs.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: VectorSigma on January 12, 2016, 09:22:35 PM
Quote from: Necrozius;873153
Is there a default 5e template for InDesign out there? A bunch of releases already in the marketplace seem to all use the same layout. I can't find anything like that anywhere on the site (just art packs).


Search dndadventurersleague.org -- they had a submission period in 2015 and there was a template in there somewhere.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: GameDaddy on January 12, 2016, 10:11:57 PM
D&D 5e DM's Guild Adventure Design Template;

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/170830/DMs-Guild-Creator-Resource--Adventure-Template
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Just Another Snake Cult on January 12, 2016, 11:47:59 PM
A year or so too late, perhaps.

But still a very positive development.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Vile Traveller on January 13, 2016, 07:59:26 AM
Quote from: GameDaddy;873228
D&D 5e DM's Guild Adventure Design Template;

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/170830/DMs-Guild-Creator-Resource--Adventure-Template

Just remember to read the small print:

This file includes a Word template which you are licensed to use in content submitted to the Dungeon Masters Guild program and published under the Community Content Agreement for the DMs Guild program. You are not licensed to use the template for any other purpose. All art owned by Wizards of the Coast.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Ddogwood on January 13, 2016, 08:24:43 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;873170
If there was a kickstarter campaign for any of the old D&D settings, it would reach the hundreds of thousands within the first week.


Maybe.  That doesn't mean that Kickstarter is a sensible option for WotC though.  They would still have to spend the time and money developing the setting for 5e before running the Kickstarter, and if they're going to do that I'm sure Hasbro would rather not give up 5% of the sales revenue to Kickstarter.

I suspect that WotC has a VERY good idea of what their sales for a new campaign setting would be like.

Quote from: Haffrung;873152
it's also more evidence to me that WotC is dramatically cutting the publishing output of D&D books, and is primarily interested simply in keeping the brand alive.


I don't think this is news though.  D&D's main value is as a brand name; there is literally nothing else unique that D&D can offer.  There are several companies putting out RPG stuff with production values and writing quality as high as anything WotC could offer.  On top of that, there are literally hundreds of small-publisher D&D-like games out there, many of which are available for free or for far less than WotC could possibly compete with.

I think that opening D&D up to the community is the only sensible option for them.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Warthur on January 13, 2016, 08:49:42 AM
Part of me thinks that this may be a sign of WotC moving on to other campaign settings as far as the tabletop RPG goes, letting the fanbase create additional Forgotten Realms stuff ad infinitum and occasionally putting out an original Realms product or a printed "best of the DM's Guild" book to keep stimulating people's interest in the setting. The novels, videogames, boardgames and so on can just keep ticking along fine - and the pace at which such things have been coming out suggests that whilst the tabletop RPG team at Wizards may be slim, the D&D brand team is very active.

The general plan as far as third party support for 5E seems to have been to be supportive of it, but only once the official WotC products have come out and had time to enjoy their "first mover" advantage. We've had about 18 months or so of new 5E Realms stuff from Wizards, capped off by a setting guide, and I imagine that you'll tend to see a similar amount of time pass between Wizards officially debuting a new setting for 5E and that setting being opened up for DM Guild contributions in future. (Assuming the Guild is even enough of a success that they bother opening it up for future settings.)

The overall model seems to be to maintain a compact tabletop RPG design team (freed to use whichever hired guns they consider to be worth collaborating with) in order to trailblaze new stuff (and we know that they've been beavering away at new rules stuff and setting conversions from the Unearthed Arcana articles), with novels and boardgames and videogames and the like emerging in the wake of that and the DM Guild providing an effective way for Wizards to service the "long tail" without having to invest a lot in it, whilst simultaneously engaging in an interesting experiment in opening up a proprietary world for fans to contribute to in a way which can only increase fans' sense of investment in the setting (with all the benefits to future products that entails).
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Warthur on January 13, 2016, 08:57:42 AM
For that matter, the Guild concept seems particularly clever as a way of simultaneously catering to those who want lots and lots of content to choose from, and those who actually prefer a more careful and sparing series of releases which maintain a higher standard than is really possible if you're churning out material at a very rapid pace.

This way, if you're a content-hungry sort you can delve into the Wild West environment of the Guild, pick out stuff that looks interesting, and rate it accordingly, whereas if you don't mind the slower official release schedule you just wait for Wizards to pick out the cream of the crop and include them in an official release or otherwise find some way to highlight them.

On the business side, it's a smart move, and on the creative side it's a really interesting experiment in applying the crowd-playtesting model that made 5E such a robust system to the production of setting material: that which fires people's imagination will thrive and be built on, that which doesn't won't.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: estar on January 13, 2016, 10:18:33 AM
Quote from: Warthur;873274
On the business side, it's a smart move, and on the creative side it's a really interesting experiment in applying the crowd-playtesting model that made 5E such a robust system to the production of setting material: that which fires people's imagination will thrive and be built on, that which doesn't won't.


RPG fan communities around a particular setting has been around a while. To date is all been wink-wink nudge-nudge as to how they use the original IP. Now Wizards has given their explicit blessing to the fans to play with the Forgotten Realms. Yes their are limitations but compared to before it a hell of deal.

If you have a completely original idea you would probably be a bit stupid to post it up the DM's Guild however if you have something that only works with Forgotten Realms now you can share it and make some beer money off it.

I can't wait for Greyhawk to be supported by this. While 90% of my stuff is focused on the Majestic Wilderlands I have a handful of items that I think would sell for Greyhawk.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Necrozius on January 13, 2016, 10:25:03 AM
Awesome, thanks for the links and info re: the template.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Haffrung on January 13, 2016, 11:04:40 AM
Quote from: Ddogwood;873267

I don't think this is news though.  D&D's main value is as a brand name; there is literally nothing else unique that D&D can offer.  There are several companies putting out RPG stuff with production values and writing quality as high as anything WotC could offer.


I have high standards. Professional developers, editing and layout. Full-colour illustrations. High-quality maps. Evidence of playtesting. And I'm not seeing a whole lot for 5E yet.

When I started participating in the Next playtest, I was excited that I would be getting a new edition of the game that suited my preferences as a system, and that it would be supported the way 4E was supported. Looks like I'm getting half of that. Which is okay. But it's kinda sad that I'll need to convert a bunch of 4E material (which is surprisingly well suited to a location-based sandbox approach to D&D) instead of giving WotC money for new material that doesn't need to be converted.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Warthur on January 13, 2016, 11:21:33 AM
Quote from: estar;873283
RPG fan communities around a particular setting has been around a while. To date is all been wink-wink nudge-nudge as to how they use the original IP. Now Wizards has given their explicit blessing to the fans to play with the Forgotten Realms. Yes their are limitations but compared to before it a hell of deal.

Plus previously fanworks have mostly been a one-way street, in the sense that fans have drawn on what the official product line has done but the official product lines have rarely incorporated fan ideas (particularly due to the thorny issues of copyright, plagiarism and ownership that raises).

With the Guild model, though, Wizards seem to be explicitly saying that they're keen to incorporate stuff developed on a fandom basis into the Forgotten Realms canon, and have developed a platform specifically optimised to let them see a) what fan ideas are popular and b) what ideas sell well.

It's like if George Lucas had decided to crowd-write the Star Wars prequels or something.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: estar on January 13, 2016, 03:37:56 PM
Quote from: Warthur;873291

With the Guild model, though, Wizards seem to be explicitly saying that they're keen to incorporate stuff developed on a fandom basis into the Forgotten Realms canon, and have developed a platform specifically optimised to let them see a) what fan ideas are popular and b) what ideas sell well.


While not quite the same, Harn been operating on a similar model. Basically all the Harn products today are written or expanded by a group of writers drawn from the fan base. The fans basically audition by submitting fanworks to Lythia.com. The best (and there are lot of really good fan stuff there) authors get recruited.

The only downside is that what actually get released depends on the interest of the authors. There is no feel of a plan other than Columbia's Games goal of getting everything back into Print/PDF and Kelestia's focus on expanding the main continent of Lythia.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Opaopajr on January 13, 2016, 04:20:10 PM
Let's brainstorm a new forum DM Guild Adventure challenge!

I vote:


I'll go make the Barbarian's Challenge with "I-Like-Ponies!" in mind!... :cheerleader::p

(We'll return when finished and post 'em in a new topic to criticize before throwing it up on the Guild. Maybe we'll add little RPGSite shout outs and acknowledgements. Maybe a touch of flare like Dragonsfoot, or Shenanigans. Then in the morning we can have pancakes!)
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Shipyard Locked on January 13, 2016, 06:26:21 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;873329

  • Branching paths, mini-sandbox (shoebox!),
Toybox?
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: mcbobbo on January 13, 2016, 06:28:52 PM
I for one am beyond stoked, and wanted to add "I told you so"...  :D
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: crkrueger on January 13, 2016, 06:51:12 PM
Wow, leveraging the OGL, whoda thunk it?

Quote from: Warthur;873133
The OGL is decidedly publisher-friendly, but doesn't let you use the D&D trademark.


Hmm, good point, but they specifically refer to this SRD as SRD5 in the text, so you could say compatible with SRD5 or something, couldn't you?  Maybe Rob can weigh in on that.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: PencilBoy99 on January 13, 2016, 08:59:47 PM
I've seen a couple of posts predicting the death of the OSR movement now that people can licence 5e. I hope that's not the case since I much prefer the OSR stuff I have to 5e stuff (which everyone but me loves).
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: The Butcher on January 13, 2016, 09:13:00 PM
Quote from: PencilBoy99;873389
I've seen a couple of posts predicting the death of the OSR movement now that people can licence 5e. I hope that's not the case since I much prefer the OSR stuff I have to 5e stuff (which everyone but me loves).


I feel people who got into the OSR in search of rules-lighter-than-3e/PF/4e have probably already adopted 5e, and if they write and share their gaming material, they'll likely do so under the SRD and/or the DM's Guild.

But those who got into old school D&D for the playstyle will mostly stick around, and I dare say they make up the majority of OSR creators.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: JeremyR on January 13, 2016, 09:19:45 PM
Quote from: PencilBoy99;873389
I've seen a couple of posts predicting the death of the OSR movement now that people can licence 5e. I hope that's not the case since I much prefer the OSR stuff I have to 5e stuff (which everyone but me loves).


I don't think many people are into making money in the OSR. And those that are have built up their own brand - ACKS, LotFP, Sine Nomine, etc, which they probably won't abandon to chase short term 5e money.

And a lot of the more professional stuff, like Frog God, is already simply made for Pathfinder and half-assedly converted to OSR.

You will probably lose a lot of the shovelware, like the one page, 99 cent classes or handful of magic items.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Shipyard Locked on January 13, 2016, 10:11:10 PM
Meanwhile on RPGnet this move is a sign that 5e is DOOOOOMED!:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?773978-5E-Anybody-else-gets-the-impression-that-the-WotC-is-quot-giving-up-quot
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: estar on January 13, 2016, 11:28:52 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;873360
Hmm, good point, but they specifically refer to this SRD as SRD5 in the text, so you could say compatible with SRD5 or something, couldn't you?  Maybe Rob can weigh in on that.


This is the relevant section from the OGL

Quote
Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in Open Game Content does not constitute a challenge to the ownership of that Product Identity. The owner of any Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain all rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity.


So looking at the SRD5 the term 'SRD5' is not declared as product identity. so we are good on that. SRD5 is probably not a trademark so the next section doesn't apply. So looks like you are good to go with saying your book is compatible with SRD5.

Note that d20 as a trademark is declared as product identity which is interesting.

Quote
d20 (when used as a trademark)
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: estar on January 13, 2016, 11:57:43 PM
Quote from: PencilBoy99;873389
I've seen a couple of posts predicting the death of the OSR movement now that people can licence 5e. I hope that's not the case since I much prefer the OSR stuff I have to 5e stuff (which everyone but me loves).


As long there an interest in playing classic editions of D&D, the OSR will be around.

With that being said, the general trend has been to diversify because with all else being equal the default for most gamers is to kitbash their campaigns out of whatever they like.

So I predict is that 5e will now become of that process and within 2 years you will be hard pressed to tell where publishers focused on classic D&D ends and publishers focused on 5e begins. Because there will be hybrids that will be combining various editions together. For example right now there is Blood & Treasure which sits squarely between classic D&D and the 3.5 rules.  

We may be seeing a 3.5 based RPG that is based on bounded accuracy using stats and number from 5e but with 3.5 options for characters. Probably somebody working on a ruleset that could only be describe as a mash of classic D&D, Pathfinder, and 5e.

I am sure any 5e publisher interested in expanding the Warlock and gonzo fantasy is going to be looking to incorporate what works for them from the DCC RPG.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Warthur on January 14, 2016, 03:47:25 AM
Quote from: estar;873425
Note that d20 as a trademark is declared as product identity which is interesting.

That's probably to make it clear that you're OK to use the conventional dice code when referring to a D20.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: S'mon on January 14, 2016, 03:48:16 AM
Quote from: The Butcher;873391
I feel people who got into the OSR in search of rules-lighter-than-3e/PF/4e have probably already adopted 5e, and if they write and share their gaming material, they'll likely do so under the SRD and/or the DM's Guild.

But those who got into old school D&D for the playstyle will mostly stick around, and I dare say they make up the majority of OSR creators.

There's more than one OSR playstyle - I think eg 'Fantasy Fucking Vietnam' enthusiast players are not attracted to 5e, but they're not a huge number of players. Other playstyles such as Gonzo and Palaces & Princesses work well with 5e, and you're likely to see 3rd party products for them, I hope (I run a P&P style Mentzer Classic D&D campaign that could well work in 5e, for instance, as well as a gonzo-ish sword & sorcery 5e campaign).

I guess there are some 5e elements such as easy healing & routine spellcasting that will always deter OSR players. The discussions of 5e in the Dragonsfoot 'Other Games' forum are enlightening re what old-D&D fans want & don't want.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: S'mon on January 14, 2016, 03:53:17 AM
Quote from: estar;873425
This is the relevant section from the OGL

So looking at the SRD5 the term 'SRD5' is not declared as product identity. so we are good on that. SRD5 is probably not a trademark so the next section doesn't apply. So looks like you are good to go with saying your book is compatible with SRD5.

Note that d20 as a trademark is declared as product identity which is interesting.


Presumably you can call it "5e" ok within the terms of the OGL? And refer to the "5e SRD?" Neither feature in the designated PI list of the 5e SRD http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/SRD-OGL_V1.1.pdf - and the list seems to be the same as in 2000?
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: One Horse Town on January 14, 2016, 07:06:32 AM
The rot being trotted out about this is remarkable.

It's a great move by Wizards and far more than most people expected, i reckon.

I almost guarantee that folk who use the DM Guild to publish their own material will make more money using that than they'd ever dream of making by self-publishing off their own back, even with the increased 'agent' fee that wizards are taking. Not only that, but your work might even be used officially in future (sure you don't get paid for that, but what do you want, the moon on a stick?) and will also put your work in the shop window for the multitudes of RPG folk who will peruse that venue for ideas and new authors to work with.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: estar on January 14, 2016, 07:17:21 AM
Quote from: Warthur;873453
That's probably to make it clear that you're OK to use the conventional dice code when referring to a D20.


right, but what I meant was I found it interesting that they even included the trademark as product identity.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on January 14, 2016, 10:00:17 AM
Quote from: S'mon;873455
Presumably you can call it "5e" ok within the terms of the OGL? And refer to the "5e SRD?" Neither feature in the designated PI list of the 5e SRD http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/SRD-OGL_V1.1.pdf - and the list seems to be the same as in 2000?


For everyone who is confused: "Dungeons & Dragons" is a brand name and trademark that other commercial publishers cannot use without a license from Wizards of the Coast. "Fifth Edition Compatible" is the generic equivalent that anyone can use and already had before the SRD came out and will continue to do so.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: thedungeondelver on January 14, 2016, 01:34:29 PM
I could really get behind this if they'd include 1e and OD&D (and...yes...even 2e) in the OGL but they won't.  And that sucks.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Spinachcat on January 14, 2016, 04:35:26 PM
Are we sure the DM's Guild is PDF only?

Doesn't OBS usually offer POD as an option?


Quote from: One Horse Town;873460
I almost guarantee that folk who use the DM Guild to publish their own material will make more money using that than they'd ever dream of making by self-publishing off their own back, even with the increased 'agent' fee that wizards are taking.


Maybe, but I am unsure.  Let's say you sell 100 PDFs for $10.

DM's Guild
That's $500 for you, $250 for WotC and $250 for OBS.
To make $750, you would need to see 150 PDFs.
Is the DM's guild really going to result in 50% more sales???

VS.

Self-Publishing
You sell 100 PDFs on KS or OBS and you keep $750 (or more), and you keep control of your creation. You also can sell POD and dead tree.

I absolutely see the value for people who want to make Forgotten Realms stuff, but I see less value for people who want to make D&D stuff.

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't see how the online PDF buying community is suddenly going to expand due to the DM's Guild.

OBS already has its preview option so nobody needs to be surprised by the quality of a PDF since they can usually read a few pages and see some art before they make a purchase.


Quote from: One Horse Town;873460
Not only that, but your work might even be used officially in future (sure you don't get paid for that, but what do you want, the moon on a stick?)


Fanboys will happily shove the moon on a stick up their ass, but established authors may not want to risk that scheme - especially if their work could be then translated into more profitable mediums - novels, videogames, etc - without compensation.


Quote from: Opaopajr;873146
For all my complaints about Org Play adventures, it's an opportunity to pitch how I think LFR could be better and see if the market likes it.


THIS is where I see the DM's Guild value. It would allow for different views and takes on FR canon.

The DM's Guild reminds me a lot of Kindle Worlds.

If you're not familiar with Kindle Worlds, its a program where you can write your own "fanfic" in a licensed world such as Vampire Diaries, GI Joe, etc. and be published on Kindle. You get 20% or 35% (based on word count) and the rest goes to the Rights Holder and Amazon.

It's permission to play in someone else's playground and make some dimes. Apparently, its doing okay for Amazon and several established authors claim to be enjoying writing for Kindle Worlds properties.


Quote from: PencilBoy99;873389
I've seen a couple of posts predicting the death of the OSR movement now that people can licence 5e.


Doubtful.

We are already seeing publishers multi-statting their products for OSR, Pathfinder and "Fifth Edition Fantasy" and that will continue.

Will there be less just OSR stuff? Maybe, but not notably.


Quote from: JeremyR;873392
You will probably lose a lot of the shovelware, like the one page, 99 cent classes or handful of magic items.


The shovelware guys are going to flood the DM's Guild, and that makes total sense for them. Micro-purchases (aka $1.00 or $1.99, etc) are a good bet.

I just got THIS email 15 minutes ago:

The Le Game is happy to announce it's first 5e Compatible product!
Enchanted Armory: Magical Weapons contains 13 magic weapons for your 5e campaign! As a bonus, we've included 3 bonus magic items!

As a previous The Le Games customer, you can use this special coupon to get Magical Weapons for just $1.00! That's 50% off the MSRP! Hurry! this coupon code expires Saturday!
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: camazotz on January 14, 2016, 04:46:10 PM
Quote from: Saplatt;873196
The 5E version of Thule was successfully kickstarted (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sasquatchgamestudio/primeval-thule-5e/description) a few months ago. The  hardcovers were shipped just before Christmas. There will also be a GMs supplement and a player's supplement - both in softcover. The pdf for the GM companion went out last month and the Player's Companion should come out sometime very soon.


The GM Companion PDF was released? I'm a backer and didn't see anything about this....hmmm...
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Spinachcat on January 14, 2016, 05:01:45 PM
Here are some interesting bits to consider:

Quote
Content Guideline

When you create your own title for the Dungeon Masters Guild, you get access to a hoard of resources. Your work can use any of the fifth edition D&D rules published by Wizards of the Coast, plus decades of published material for the Forgotten Realms setting. Additionally, Wizards of the Coast and OneBookShelf will from time to time make additional resources such as stock art, template cover designs, template stat blocks, and other such assets available on the DMsGuild.com site for you to freely use in your Dungeon Masters Guild titles.


THIS is interesting for people whose focus is Forgotten Realms. It appears that you can access ALL of FR's canon in your derivative work.

Moreover, the additional assets are going to help lower the barrier to entry.


Quote
Can I sell my Dungeon Masters Guild title in print as well as PDF?

Yes, you can sell your title through OneBookShelf’s print-on-demand program, as well as in PDF.


Interesting.


Quote
How do art and maps work? Can I provide my own? Limitations?

You’re free to choose from the library of art and maps that we’ll be providing, or you can create or commission your own. Paying for art and maps that you commission is your responsibility. All such art and maps must also adhere to our content guidelines and Community Content Agreement.


"library of art and maps" - WOW. That's a nice option for authors and significantly hammering down the barrier to entry.


Quote
Does Wizards own any unique IP that I create in my publications?

Wizards does not own any of the unique IP that you create in your publications. Wizards does own the IP that they contribute, plus the agreement will grant Wizards and other DMs Guild authors a license to use your IP. That said, if your work merits incorporation into “canon,” Wizards will contact you about purchasing your IP outright.

What does it mean to be selected by the Dungeons & Dragons team at Wizards? What can your content be selected for?

You could be selected for any number of things. They include, but are not limited to… publication in an official Wizards product; inclusion in DLC or even main storylines for one of the games created by our digital partners; etc.


There are some wording issues with the above statements. I am unsure how "selected" is different than "purchasing your IP outright" - if they are the same thing, then WotC is offering a BETTER DEAL than Kindle Worlds.

We will see.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Opaopajr on January 14, 2016, 08:58:05 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;873500
The shovelware guys are going to flood the DM's Guild, and that makes total sense for them. Micro-purchases (aka $1.00 or $1.99, etc) are a good bet.

I just got THIS email 15 minutes ago:

The Le Game is happy to announce it's first 5e Compatible product!
Enchanted Armory: Magical Weapons contains 13 magic weapons for your 5e campaign! As a bonus, we've included 3 bonus magic items!

As a previous The Le Games customer, you can use this special coupon to get Magical Weapons for just $1.00! That's 50% off the MSRP! Hurry! this coupon code expires Saturday!


That reminds me, I need to make my "Teh Ultimate R0Xorz Class Items!!1!1!Eleven!" Shovelware Item Splat.

Dunno who buys this shit. But obviously at a dollar a pop these businesses are still at it for d20/PF all these years. Must be plenty of empty headed numpties about who "just gotta win 'let's pretend to be an elf!' games."

In it I'm going to have things like:

I Just Won, The Sword - Usable only by fighters. All magic users who oppose your any thought or action disintegrate immediately, no save, no reactions. Also, you just kill everything whenever you want to and if the GM says 'no' just point out that this weapon says that they are wrong.

'OMG Who Farted?' Cape - Usable only by bards and Illusionist specialist wizards. Look at someone with the stank eye, like their booty just exploded, and comment about the smell of flatulence. An odiferous illusion emanates from your target, giving them disadvantage on CHA skill checks.

Stole It All Already, The Boots - Usable only by Rogues. These boots come with 3 charges. Whenever a great treasure hoard is mentioned and you don't want to bother use a charge from these boots and just have all that treasure already. Recharges requires a stolen precious object of another, including those of sentimental nature (such as a child's doll).


(Part of my soul respecting the state of humanity would wither with each sale! :) Get yours today!)
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Saplatt on January 15, 2016, 08:01:57 AM
Quote from: camazotz;873504
The GM Companion PDF was released? I'm a backer and didn't see anything about this....hmmm...


I received my email re the GM Companion and two of the stretch goal adventures on 12/7 and was able to download them both the next day. If you already have a digital bundle associated with DTRPG, it should be there.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on January 15, 2016, 12:37:50 PM
How likely is it that this would be a Paizo killer?
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: The Butcher on January 15, 2016, 12:56:41 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;873613
How likely is it that this would be a Paizo killer?


Not at all. My information is incomplete and my opinion is mostly based on hunches, but bear with me for a moment.

First, I'm not sure how much of their revenue is tied to the Pathfinder RPG product line.  Paizo's branched out early on, with boardgames and novels and stuff, not to mention a well-stocked online store that sells more than their own product.

Second, Pathfinder is has a loyal constituency (no idea how big) that, at least as seen from the outside, doesn't seem particularly involved with creating and distributing DIY/fan material. Conversely, 5e's drawn a bunch of people from the OSR (a movement in great part defined by its DIY attitude) back into the official D&D fold, and the DM's Guild caters to these people, big time.

Third, if there's been a migration of Pathfinder customers over to WotC with 5e, it's probably already happened.

So, IMHO, I don't think the DM's Guild will further impact Paizo's business by much.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: VectorSigma on January 15, 2016, 12:56:55 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;873613
How likely is it that this would be a Paizo killer?


Not likely.  There may have been some PF-to-5e attrition ("returners" or whatever), but they've already shifted.  This change alone isn't enough to break Paizo.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: thedungeondelver on January 15, 2016, 01:40:56 PM
Yeah I'm going to go with the "not at all" on the Paizo-killing.  The people who like Pathfinder are...really, really enthusiastic about Pathfinder.  Like I am about 1e, almost.  And maybe moreso.

I reaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllly doubt they're going to leave that Mathematical Computer Language Simulator that is Pathfinder for 5e.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Spinachcat on January 15, 2016, 07:34:40 PM
I am not a Paizo fan or a 3e fan. However, I have utmost respect for how Paizo has cultivated both the Paizo and 3e fan base, and has done a remarkable job delivering consistent high quality to them.

Additionally, the 3e & PF fanbase has very active 3rd party support via KS and DriveThru.

Much like OSR fans, they could buy a goodie every month for the rest of their lives and not complete their collections.

BTW, I have read more about the 5e SRD and I will share more about it soon. Short story: Wow, it kicks ass if you want to play in Forgotten Realms. It kicks ass for both customer and author.

I'm kinda bummed I'm not a FR fan. If WotC does a 5e Dark Sun and opens it in the DM's Guild, then I'll choke on 5e just to have the chance to produce DS stuff.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Marleycat on January 16, 2016, 01:39:04 AM
Quote from: Opaopajr;873527
That reminds me, I need to make my "Teh Ultimate R0Xorz Class Items!!1!1!Eleven!" Shovelware Item Splat.

Dunno who buys this shit. But obviously at a dollar a pop these businesses are still at it for d20/PF all these years. Must be plenty of empty headed numpties about who "just gotta win 'let's pretend to be an elf!' games."

In it I'm going to have things like:

I Just Won, The Sword - Usable only by fighters. All magic users who oppose your any thought or action disintegrate immediately, no save, no reactions. Also, you just kill everything whenever you want to and if the GM says 'no' just point out that this weapon says that they are wrong.

'OMG Who Farted?' Cape - Usable only by bards and Illusionist specialist wizards. Look at someone with the stank eye, like their booty just exploded, and comment about the smell of flatulence. An odiferous illusion emanates from your target, giving them disadvantage on CHA skill checks.

Stole It All Already, The Boots - Usable only by Rogues. These boots come with 3 charges. Whenever a great treasure hoard is mentioned and you don't want to bother use a charge from these boots and just have all that treasure already. Recharges requires a stolen precious object of another, including those of sentimental nature (such as a child's doll).


(Part of my soul respecting the state of humanity would wither with each sale! :) Get yours today!)


Why so mad? Especially against the class you seem to have serious issues with and flat hate because they go against the low power stuff you seem to literally orgasm over. Wizards honey, tell me different but be convincing. Just so I have a choice to laugh at you behind your back legally and all.

 This is even better then what Onyx Path does. Buy what works and don't even care about the shit. Nice.:)

It saddens me that you hate useful cantrips and tells me you have no clue about full magic users even AFTER I played in your ridiculous restricted game and only used cantips, most not combat focused and did just fine.

Methinks you'd hate the game I actually play and run regularly...Mage the Awakening 2e. It's all about being really good in your path, picking a legacy that allows you to be awesome in another area of magic and being decent in 2-3 or areas. At least good enough not to be embarrassed.

So at least hit us with a crown, robe and scepter. Rods, wands, and staffs are optional.:)
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Opaopajr on January 16, 2016, 04:48:02 AM
Quote from: Marleycat;873693
Why so mad? Especially against the class you seem to have serious issues with and flat hate because they go against the low power stuff you seem to literally orgasm over. Wizards honey, tell me different but be convincing. Just so I have a choice to laugh at you behind your back legally and all.

 This is even better then what Onyx Path does. Buy what works and don't even care about the shit. Nice.:)

It saddens me that you hate useful cantrips and tells me you have no clue about full magic users even AFTER I played in your ridiculous restricted game and only used cantips, most not combat focused and did just fine.

Methinks you'd hate the game I actually play and run regularly...Mage the Awakening 2e. It's all about being really good in your path, picking a legacy that allows you to be awesome in another area of magic and being decent in 2-3 or areas. At least good enough not to be embarrassed.

So at least hit us with a crown, robe and scepter. Rods, wands, and staffs are optional.:)


Oh I do hate Mage the Ascension; the intra-game arguments alone were so eye-roll inducing they caused migraines. Mage the Awakening didn't seem interesting to me, but I have no play experience to say otherwise. But the point of that post is against shovelware, as is quite evident from the quoted context.

As to using only cantrips in my game, I had no problem with it. I have a problem with the infinite availability being disruptive to setting and play, but there's bigger reasons than mere PC power for my reasoning. I don't reserve classes for only PCs and never do -- all my NPCs are essentially playable classes.

That infinite cantrips changes the setting dynamics immensely. It also allows players to spam distraction to the level of disruption, like Thaumaturgy or Prestidigitation. Given that my NPCs are classes, and demographics of the RAW classes are half magic users, we're looking at a clusterfuck of magic saturation from the beginning just from the infinite cantrips rule alone.

Yes, that means that if either you or the party cleric so much as loosed an offensive spell -- breaching the accepted social compact of the afternoon brawls involving unarmed strikes only -- in that almost-lynchmob of 60+ people, you would have faced an average of 30 spellcasters of unknown level going off, along with 30 fighters and rogues of unknown level. That is 100% TPK. There is nothing I can do at that point. That's why your party's halfling's earlier breach of drawing and striking with a dagger was such a big deal –- it set the crowd in motion towards a lynchmob.

There's a reason it was the most XP reward of any encounter. It was also unwinnable by combat and why only a fraction was awarded as an alternate.

I wanted you to be non-combat focused in town during the social and investigation parts of the game. Using force lightly, including magic, is what I expect from strangers learning a new place. The setting would kill you otherwise. I had to tone down parts of some encounters because the RAW monster stats available were too disgusting in the quantity I already seeded them in fixed locations.

(Over 100+ ghosts & will o' wisps in the New Graveyard is death incarnate, even if they are strictly tied to the cycle of the New Moon. I had a hell of a time trying to disambiguate the different graveyards and communicate the level of danger the party was in without speaking OOC. You were in an open sandbox and beelined into one of the most lethal areas near town. It was of a magnitude greater than that most lethal quest you accepted of the ones I presented on the bulletin board.)

It sounds like you are very much not used to my style of play. I am sorry to hear you didn't have fun. But you are naturally always welcome in my games.
:)
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: crkrueger on January 16, 2016, 04:51:37 AM
Quote from: Opaopajr;873705
I don't reserve classes for only PCs and never do -- all my NPCs are essentially playable classes.


Just wondering, if the average townsfolk is a classed NPC, and maybe more than first level, then how do you deal with the "what do we need the PCs for" dilemma?
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Opaopajr on January 16, 2016, 05:16:32 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;873707
Just wondering, if the average townsfolk is a classed NPC, and maybe more than first level, then how do you deal with the "what do we need the PCs for" dilemma?


Very simple, expendability. You're not the only hero. You're not special. You're just useful right now for delegation.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Warthur on January 16, 2016, 07:02:40 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;873660
BTW, I have read more about the 5e SRD and I will share more about it soon. Short story: Wow, it kicks ass if you want to play in Forgotten Realms. It kicks ass for both customer and author.

Let's not get confused though, the OGL/SRD and DM Guild are different spheres. There's stuff you can do in the Guild you can't do with the SRD and OGL, there's freedoms you have with the SRD and OGL that you don't have with Guild work.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: The Butcher on January 16, 2016, 10:05:14 AM
Quote from: S'mon;873454
There's more than one OSR playstyle - I think eg 'Fantasy Fucking Vietnam' enthusiast players are not attracted to 5e, but they're not a huge number of players. Other playstyles such as Gonzo and Palaces & Princesses work well with 5e, and you're likely to see 3rd party products for them, I hope (I run a P&P style Mentzer Classic D&D campaign that could well work in 5e, for instance, as well as a gonzo-ish sword & sorcery 5e campaign).


Very true! If I had to guess, I'd say the FFV crowd mostly sticks to the oldies, the Paladins & Princesses crew mostly moves on to 5e, and the gonzo crowd probably adopts both and/or is neatly split in two over system; because I feel gonzo and FFV are overrepresented in OSR publications, I think in the end more OSR publishers will stick to TSR and simulacra, than move over to 5e, but I wouldn't discard dual-statted supplements to become very common in the near future.

Of course, this is all wild speculation (assuming, among other things, that all playstyles have been equally represented in the OSR), but in any case, I think the DM's Guild is an awesome initiative and I don't think the OSR will die any time soon.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Armchair Gamer on January 16, 2016, 01:10:22 PM
Quote from: The Butcher;873743

Of course, this is all wild speculation (assuming, among other things, that all playstyles have been equally represented in the OSR), but in any case, I think the DM's Guild is an awesome initiative and I don't think the OSR will die any time soon.


  As the man who coined the term "Paladins & Princesses", I've always been under the impression that the OSR's reaction to it was generally indifferent to hostile. But then, I'm no fan of the OSR (or 5E, really) and have been accused of having a persecution complex. :)
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: S'mon on January 16, 2016, 04:13:29 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;873766
As the man who coined the term "Paladins & Princesses", I've always been under the impression that the OSR's reaction to it was generally indifferent to hostile.


Yeah, Mentzer & Elmore (BECM Classic D&D) are not exactly big influences on the mainstream OSR, nor is 2e AD&D. There is some P&P material produced for Basic Fantasy RPG, eg 'Fortress of the Iron Duke' in 'The Glain Campaign' is a nice homage to Palace of the Silver Princess which I used successfully. But mostly I have to use actual old TSR stuff like GAZ1 Grand Duchy of Karameikos. By comparison the OSR seems really big on Moldvay & Otus (BX Classic).
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: crkrueger on January 16, 2016, 04:21:53 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;873711
Very simple, expendability. You're not the only hero. You're not special. You're just useful right now for delegation.


Right, but that kind of limits the nature of the campaign a bit doesn't it, shifting from "We probably can't do it without your help" to "We could do it, but you're more expendable."

That's the balance issue I always had with Classed NPCs especially if they are actually supposed to fulfill a function of protection.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Opaopajr on January 16, 2016, 07:06:30 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;873789
Right, but that kind of limits the nature of the campaign a bit doesn't it, shifting from "We probably can't do it without your help" to "We could do it, but you're more expendable."

That's the balance issue I always had with Classed NPCs especially if they are actually supposed to fulfill a function of protection.


And now you made the first mistake of assuming equal resources. Just because NPCs are open to class levels and features doesn't mean they have the same power, privilege, access, desire, or capacity to carry it out. Civilization has its own maintenance costs. Not everyone can pursue to solve everything altogether all the time, hence the magic of division of labor.

And instead of limiting the campaign I find it frees things up. Instead of being "another band of mercs out for fortune and glory" you are open to pursue your own journey. That allows more low-concept pursuits -- open to character execution -- after whatever pitch was offered. There's less pressure to 'save the day' or 'set the world to rights' because you're not the only hero and there's other hooks to do.

In the end I find the nature of the campaign becomes more about exploring a fictional universe and finding one's place in it. In practice it seems more fun than having that handed to you from the beginning. It lets some really cool play shine through, but admittedly works best with pro-active players (but what doesn't?).
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: 5 Stone Games on January 16, 2016, 10:32:39 PM
I think its great that Hasbro/WOTC came down on the side of generous.

This also might help them get a leg up on Pathfinder as well and it seems well thought out.

I'm looking forward to seeing what it will bring since I like 5e and it feels better in actual play than Pathfinder YMMV of course,
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Omega on January 17, 2016, 06:56:23 AM
An OBS designer over on RPGG had some thoughts on it.

Quote
3. The 50% cut is ridiculous. However, DTRPG already charges about a 40% cut for non-exclusive publishers who joined after a certain date. My own publisher contract entitles me to 35%.

DTRPG charges a 35% commission for exclusive publishers, which is to say for anyone who agrees to carry their PDFs only on DTRPG. For some older publishers that exclusive contract is 30% instead.

What this means is that OneBookShelf is charging about a 15% increase on its royalty for exclusive publishing rights. Presumably WOTC is getting a percentage of that. It's highway robbery, but when you add middlemen you always wind up having more people to pay.

Even at 50%, it's still better than some charges for selling through Amazon's Kindle program. IIRC, they charge 65% to be in "expanded distribution" (sell through multiple partners) and 40% to sell through Amazon directly. (It's been a while since I've looked at these numbers.)
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As for the notion that your content could potentially be used for official products? That's all well and good but it's kind of a pipe dream. It's a common tactic of vanity presses -- and let's face it, this is exactly what that is -- to offer you a shot at getting "picked up" by the publisher. It's a way to entice people to your platform with no guarantee and no liability.


Does OBS really take 30-40%?

I agree though that the idea the DM Guild will allow you a chance to get added to the official works is pretty much a pipe dream. But its still a venue to get a more official look and access. Who knows what may come of it?

But even in so short a time theres a fair amount of dross being put up if my last glance at was any indicator.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: S'mon on January 17, 2016, 07:49:53 AM
In a vanity press setup, you pay the press to publish your book. This is not a vanity press.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Telarus on January 17, 2016, 08:37:18 AM
Although it does seem like Uber... just a little bit. Very interesting development. I wonder how much/if those agreement(s) would cover simple software tools. ;D
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: estar on January 17, 2016, 10:00:38 AM
Quote from: Omega;873915
Does OBS really take 30-40%?


Yes it does and some people get bent out of shape about it and some don't. For me I wish it was more at Lulu's level but OBS does go the extra mile and their PoD service a lot better IMO. So I don't feel ripped off.

Quote from: Omega;873915
I agree though that the idea the DM Guild will allow you a chance to get added to the official works is pretty much a pipe dream. But its still a venue to get a more official look and access. Who knows what may come of it?

But even in so short a time theres a fair amount of dross being put up if my last glance at was any indicator.


I think 50% is more than fair for getting to use all of the publisher IP for the core game and the Forgotten Realms without a approval process and a easy to follow content guideline.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Omega on January 17, 2016, 11:46:17 AM
Quote from: S'mon;873923
In a vanity press setup, you pay the press to publish your book. This is not a vanity press.


Technically you are paying. 50% of each sale.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: S'mon on January 17, 2016, 01:34:26 PM
Quote from: Omega;873952
Technically you are paying. 50% of each sale.


No, in a vanity press YOU GIVE THEM MONEY. Here THEY GIVE YOU LESS MONEY.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Warthur on January 17, 2016, 02:07:44 PM
Quote from: Omega;873915
An OBS designer over on RPGG had some thoughts on it.

They seem to be missing the point that they aren't comparing like for like. The 50% cut that's taken from your DM Guild sales isn't solely for OBS hosting - it's also for being allowed to put out charged-for products using the Forgotten Realms at all, and for access to useful resources and templates and art bits for making your product.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Warthur on January 17, 2016, 02:11:11 PM
Quote from: Omega;873952
Technically you are paying. 50% of each sale.

Not really - you're making an agreement as to how to split the money people pay for your product, not transferring any of your own money to them. For it to be "paying" them, the money would have to go to you first and then you'd get an invoice for your cut, whereas the money is collected by OBS and paid out to you.

And, of course, 50% of the money is still much more than 0%, which is what you'd be able to get for your homebrewed Forgotten Realms stuff if you didn't put it out through the DM Guild. Unless, of course, you fancy infringing Wizards' IP - in which case, I hope the 100% of the take on ADozenNewForgottenRealmsSpells.pdf is worth it when the cease-and-desist letters and legal threats start.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on January 17, 2016, 02:23:14 PM
Something always struck me as weird. How come lots of people hated 4e but 13th Age generally gets praise?
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Greg Benage on January 17, 2016, 02:43:37 PM
Quote from: Omega;873952
Technically you are paying. 50% of each sale.


If that makes it "vanity press," then commercial publishers are the worst of the vanity presses. A commercial publisher might give me an 8-15% royalty on print, depending on format and total sales. That percentage is for completely original work -- not derivative work based on their IP.

"Vanity Press" means the author pays the "publisher" an upfront fee (and possibly/usually a percentage of sales). The author pays this money whether he sells a million copies or zero.

By contrast, the Guild takes 50% of any sales of your strictly derivative work (split with the distributor) and no money upfront, and you get access to a vast amount of valuable IP. If you sell zero copies, Wizards gets zero dollars. Calling it a "vanity press" is ignorant.

If you're an auteur who doesn't want to relinquish 50% of your sales and some control over your work, I'd strongly recommend focusing your artistic efforts on original, non-derivative work (i.e. not D&D, and certainly not Forgotten Realms) marketed and distributed via a pure self-publishing model.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: VectorSigma on January 17, 2016, 02:45:08 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;873967
Something always struck me as weird. How come lots of people hated 4e but 13th Age generally gets praise?


1. 13th Age generally gets praise from people who enjoyed 4e.

2. 13th Age is it's own thing, not a hijacking of D&D.  Nobody has a problem with a mango if it isn't pretending to be an apple.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Omega on January 17, 2016, 03:42:25 PM
Quote from: Warthur;873963
They seem to be missing the point that they aren't comparing like for like. The 50% cut that's taken from your DM Guild sales isn't solely for OBS hosting - it's also for being allowed to put out charged-for products using the Forgotten Realms at all, and for access to useful resources and templates and art bits for making your product.


Correct. From what the files say its something like 25/25 for OBS/WOTC and the rest to the creator.

Sounds like a good compromise.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Omega on January 17, 2016, 03:54:50 PM
Quote from: Greg Benage;873970
If that makes it "vanity press," then commercial publishers are the worst of the vanity presses.


Some of the people at BGG have some odd ideas of what constitutes vanity press. Which sometimes includes anything not sold to and printed by a publisher. I dont happen to agree with that view.

Do I think the GM-G is? Not in the sense the term is supposed to be used. But then in gaming what term doesnt eventually get bastardized to mean "everything on earth"?

I do though think that its a pipe dream if you go into it thinking you'll be picked up for larger publication. I doubt we will see hardly any of that. If at all.

And I will be very happy if WOTC proves me totally wrong there.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Armchair Gamer on January 17, 2016, 04:26:42 PM
Quote from: Omega;873975


I do though think that its a pipe dream if you go into it thinking you'll be picked up for larger publication. I doubt we will see hardly any of that. If at all.

And I will be very happy if WOTC proves me totally wrong there.


It's not unheard of. Anyone else remember the "official setting websites" experiment of the early 3E era?

More substantially, the 3E versions of Dragonlance and Ravenloft were heavily written by promising fans, and I had some fan writing included in the hardcover edition ofDragons of a Vanished Moon.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Spinachcat on January 17, 2016, 06:39:47 PM
I don't think its a pipe dream. There's such a thin line between "professional" and "amateur" in hobbyist publishing.

If a promising new author does some great stuff with FR that gets attention and sales, there's no reason why WotC would not offer that author some pennies to do more FR stuff.

It's not like the difference between a WotC author and a DriveThru author in per-word compensation is some massive gulf. On various forums, a number of authors claim their freelance stuff pays more than their contract work. It's just risk vs. paycheck.

As for "what is vanity press", its a meaningless term today in the age of self-publishing and the death of the publishing house gatekeepers.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Warthur on January 17, 2016, 07:11:58 PM
It isn't a pipe dream to imagine that someone contributing to the DM Guild today could be the hot new designer of tomorrow, proving themselves through that venue in order to get a professional gig with Wizards to springboard their career. If it takes off, you could see lots and lots of people providing content there, and the review system will allow works of quality to shine like sparkling diamonds in the mire of shovelware.

It would, however, be a pipe dream to go into the DM Guild imagining that you, personally, will be the person that happens to. Writing a good-quality product is a matter of skill and practice, but capturing the zeitgeist is always at least partly a matter of luck; sometimes the product that's most carefully tailored to meet the tastes of the public ends up being the bland one, whilst the product which takes a gamble ends up being a wildcard hit. Getting into this sort of business is always a bit of a gamble, though at least with DM Guild stuff if you turn out a duff product usually the only thing you'll lose is time.
Title: 5e SRD!
Post by: Batman on January 17, 2016, 09:01:55 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;873967
Something always struck me as weird. How come lots of people hated 4e but 13th Age generally gets praise?


Mostly because 13th Age takes only a few things from 4e, mechanically speaking, and LARGELY because it isn't saddled with the tag *D&D (because that tag has a considerable amount of baggage that must be adhered to even if it's bad).