Played the system, getting ready to switch home campaign over. All characters are level 5, close to level 6 (2 fighters, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric and Monk [and an NPC fighter]).

Here's my issues:

*Not a fan of 18 skills. Have set up to use ability rolls instead, using DMG optional rule. Some of the ratings still seem rather low, especially as a Moderate check (DC15) is still pretty tough at mid-levels, even if you have at 18 in the stat (for +7 ability check).

*Have see in the "warts" thread (and in play) that saves can be pretty tough, even as you level. Not sure I'm a fan of THAT.

SO, here's my question:

*Since I want to use Abilities over Skills, and since I think characters SHOULD get better at saves as they level, would it be unreasonable for me to simply add the Proficiency bonus to all abilities, killing two birds with one stone?

Wouldn't that just make everyone good at everything instead of having specialties? Like the Barbarian would have proficiency in INT and the Wizard proficiency in Strength...

It was something we were talking about when 5e first came out. It was obvious that PB represented leveling as a play tier as a bundled advantage. To correlate that to saves, yeah, using PB for every save stat would be fine.

But Save roll, Attack roll, and Ability Roll are all three different rolls that just use the same d20 resolution die. Just because you use a different solution in one doesn't mean it has to cascade to the rest, as they are separate task resolutions.

The challenge then becomes what do you reserve for races and classes with extra proficiencies, and Featured like Expertise, Jack of All Trades, and other Skill/Tool advantages. You could ignore the extra proficiency advantage, and still read the Expertise and Jack of All Trades features the same. End result is Jack becomes mostly irrelevant, but Expertise still functions (double PB).

Quote from: cranebump;865220Some of the ratings still seem rather low, especially as a Moderate check (DC15) is still pretty tough at mid-levels, even if you have at 18 in the stat (for +7 ability check).

Just lower the DCs if the desired outcome is passing them more easily. That way you don't invalidate a bunch of class abilities that grant skills/expertise/half proficiency/etc.

Quote from: snooggums;865343Just lower the DCs if the desired outcome is passing them more easily. That way you don't invalidate a bunch of class abilities that grant skills/expertise/half proficiency/etc.

I think -5 to listed DCs may be the best approach for skills.

Save DCs though are set based off monster/PC abilities and already start low but get very high. For them I think the best way is either giving Proficiency to all saves, or PB-2 to non-Prof save (so from +0 to +4). The latter has the advantage of leaving level 1-4 PCs and CR 0-4 monsters unchanged, and keeps "gain a Save Proficiency" powers useful.

The "very easy" DC 5 and "easy" DC 10 are woefully underused in my opinion. Sometimes you just need to see who's "out to lunch," as it were.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;865235Wouldn't that just make everyone good at everything instead of having specialties? Like the Barbarian would have proficiency in INT and the Wizard proficiency in Strength...

You're correct. However, in some cases, I'm not sure they're so much good as passable, and certainly not excellent, if Ability allocation is typical. An 8-Int Barb who never devotes bumps to the score would gain a decent bonus over time. He'd still lag behind the Wizard significantly as they level.  

I AM a bit concerned about negating/minimizing expertise, but I wonder if that can be handled by simply giving advantage on certain rolls?

Quote from: Opaopajr;865329But Save roll, Attack roll, and Ability Roll are all three different rolls that just use the same d20 resolution die. Just because you use a different solution in one doesn't mean it has to cascade to the rest, as they are separate task resolutions.

I see where you're coming from here. I'm wondering, though, if it really does that much harm to cascade them? Attacks aren't a problem, because you can simply disad any rolls with non-proficient weapons, and deny use of non-proficient armor.  I guess there might be some issues with, say, dumb warrior having an overall plus on INT checks, but just having a bonus doesn't mean you get a roll (GM controls that, I would think). In any case, this is something to consider, thank you.

Quote from: Opaopajr;865329The challenge then becomes what do you reserve for races and classes with extra proficiencies, and Featured like Expertise, Jack of All Trades, and other Skill/Tool advantages. You could ignore the extra proficiency advantage, and still read the Expertise and Jack of All Trades features the same. End result is Jack becomes mostly irrelevant, but Expertise still functions (double PB).

I'm settled on using Ability checks over skills, for sure (for now). On that, It looks like the PHB option is to grant an extra ability proficiency to a class with Expertise. From what I can tell, characters have 1 proficient ability for Class, and one for Background. Rogues get a third when they achieve expertise. That is, if I am interpreting that option correctly?

Quote from: cranebump;865402I see where you're coming from here. I'm wondering, though, if it really does that much harm to cascade them? Attacks aren't a problem, because you can simply disad any rolls with non-proficient weapons, and deny use of non-proficient armor.  I guess there might be some issues with, say, dumb warrior having an overall plus on INT checks, but just having a bonus doesn't mean you get a roll (GM controls that, I would think). In any case, this is something to consider, thank you.

You know, outright restrictions work perfectly fine.

Might not even need Disadv for non-proficient weapons. Just label them Improvised Weapons (damage reduced to 1d4 flat, no mod) and call it a day. Overall an easier solution and gets around clever Adv/Disadv tricks later.

As for dumb fighter later having a positive INT mod due to high level PB? Since that only really happens after many levels to offset the negative, I wouldn't worry about it at all. Dumb 9th lvl fighter can still be assumed to have gleaned something from his adventures. However GM judgment naturally applies, so detailed arcana or history may still be beyond the fighter to even roll.

Quote from: cranebump;865402I'm settled on using Ability checks over skills, for sure (for now). On that, It looks like the PHB option is to grant an extra ability proficiency to a class with Expertise. From what I can tell, characters have 1 proficient ability for Class, and one for Background. Rogues get a third when they achieve expertise. That is, if I am interpreting that option correctly?

I only have the Basic PHB amd Basic MM/DMG as core. Could you cite in part that optional text? You're probably right, but I don't understand what they mean "proficient ability" in that context, as I'm used to that reserved for discussing saves.