This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: [5E] Proficiency in everything?  (Read 849 times)

cranebump

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1843
[5E] Proficiency in everything?
« on: November 19, 2015, 08:42:19 AM »
Played the system, getting ready to switch home campaign over. All characters are level 5, close to level 6 (2 fighters, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric and Monk [and an NPC fighter]).

Here's my issues:

*Not a fan of 18 skills. Have set up to use ability rolls instead, using DMG optional rule. Some of the ratings still seem rather low, especially as a Moderate check (DC15) is still pretty tough at mid-levels, even if you have at 18 in the stat (for +7 ability check).

*Have see in the "warts" thread (and in play) that saves can be pretty tough, even as you level. Not sure I'm a fan of THAT.

SO, here's my question:

*Since I want to use Abilities over Skills, and since I think characters SHOULD get better at saves as they level, would it be unreasonable for me to simply add the Proficiency bonus to all abilities, killing two birds with one stone?
"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they do suggest at first with heavenly shows..."

mAcular Chaotic

  • All Evils of this World
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2263
[5E] Proficiency in everything?
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2015, 10:43:43 AM »
Wouldn't that just make everyone good at everything instead of having specialties? Like the Barbarian would have proficiency in INT and the Wizard proficiency in Strength...
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.

Opaopajr

  • Señor Wences
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7768
[5E] Proficiency in everything?
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2015, 09:00:55 PM »
It was something we were talking about when 5e first came out. It was obvious that PB represented leveling as a play tier as a bundled advantage. To correlate that to saves, yeah, using PB for every save stat would be fine.

But Save roll, Attack roll, and Ability Roll are all three different rolls that just use the same d20 resolution die. Just because you use a different solution in one doesn't mean it has to cascade to the rest, as they are separate task resolutions.

The challenge then becomes what do you reserve for races and classes with extra proficiencies, and Featured like Expertise, Jack of All Trades, and other Skill/Tool advantages. You could ignore the extra proficiency advantage, and still read the Expertise and Jack of All Trades features the same. End result is Jack becomes mostly irrelevant, but Expertise still functions (double PB).
Just make your fuckin' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what's interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it's more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

snooggums

  • good news everyone!
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 247
[5E] Proficiency in everything?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2015, 10:33:33 PM »
Quote from: cranebump;865220
Some of the ratings still seem rather low, especially as a Moderate check (DC15) is still pretty tough at mid-levels, even if you have at 18 in the stat (for +7 ability check).


Just lower the DCs if the desired outcome is passing them more easily. That way you don't invalidate a bunch of class abilities that grant skills/expertise/half proficiency/etc.

S'mon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13315
[5E] Proficiency in everything?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2015, 04:51:40 AM »
Quote from: snooggums;865343
Just lower the DCs if the desired outcome is passing them more easily. That way you don't invalidate a bunch of class abilities that grant skills/expertise/half proficiency/etc.

I think -5 to listed DCs may be the best approach for skills.

Save DCs though are set based off monster/PC abilities and already start low but get very high. For them I think the best way is either giving Proficiency to all saves, or PB-2 to non-Prof save (so from +0 to +4). The latter has the advantage of leaving level 1-4 PCs and CR 0-4 monsters unchanged, and keeps "gain a Save Proficiency" powers useful.

Opaopajr

  • Señor Wences
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7768
[5E] Proficiency in everything?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2015, 07:51:25 AM »
The "very easy" DC 5 and "easy" DC 10 are woefully underused in my opinion. Sometimes you just need to see who's "out to lunch," as it were.
Just make your fuckin' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what's interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it's more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

cranebump

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1843
[5E] Proficiency in everything?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2015, 08:31:27 AM »
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;865235
Wouldn't that just make everyone good at everything instead of having specialties? Like the Barbarian would have proficiency in INT and the Wizard proficiency in Strength...

You're correct. However, in some cases, I'm not sure they're so much good as passable, and certainly not excellent, if Ability allocation is typical. An 8-Int Barb who never devotes bumps to the score would gain a decent bonus over time. He'd still lag behind the Wizard significantly as they level.  

I AM a bit concerned about negating/minimizing expertise, but I wonder if that can be handled by simply giving advantage on certain rolls?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 09:12:05 AM by cranebump »
"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they do suggest at first with heavenly shows..."

cranebump

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1843
[5E] Proficiency in everything?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2015, 09:10:51 AM »
Quote from: Opaopajr;865329
But Save roll, Attack roll, and Ability Roll are all three different rolls that just use the same d20 resolution die. Just because you use a different solution in one doesn't mean it has to cascade to the rest, as they are separate task resolutions.

I see where you're coming from here. I'm wondering, though, if it really does that much harm to cascade them? Attacks aren't a problem, because you can simply disad any rolls with non-proficient weapons, and deny use of non-proficient armor.  I guess there might be some issues with, say, dumb warrior having an overall plus on INT checks, but just having a bonus doesn't mean you get a roll (GM controls that, I would think). In any case, this is something to consider, thank you.


Quote from: Opaopajr;865329
The challenge then becomes what do you reserve for races and classes with extra proficiencies, and Featured like Expertise, Jack of All Trades, and other Skill/Tool advantages. You could ignore the extra proficiency advantage, and still read the Expertise and Jack of All Trades features the same. End result is Jack becomes mostly irrelevant, but Expertise still functions (double PB).

I'm settled on using Ability checks over skills, for sure (for now). On that, It looks like the PHB option is to grant an extra ability proficiency to a class with Expertise. From what I can tell, characters have 1 proficient ability for Class, and one for Background. Rogues get a third when they achieve expertise. That is, if I am interpreting that option correctly?
"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they do suggest at first with heavenly shows..."

Opaopajr

  • Señor Wences
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7768
[5E] Proficiency in everything?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2015, 05:02:17 AM »
Quote from: cranebump;865402
I see where you're coming from here. I'm wondering, though, if it really does that much harm to cascade them? Attacks aren't a problem, because you can simply disad any rolls with non-proficient weapons, and deny use of non-proficient armor.  I guess there might be some issues with, say, dumb warrior having an overall plus on INT checks, but just having a bonus doesn't mean you get a roll (GM controls that, I would think). In any case, this is something to consider, thank you.

You know, outright restrictions work perfectly fine.

Might not even need Disadv for non-proficient weapons. Just label them Improvised Weapons (damage reduced to 1d4 flat, no mod) and call it a day. Overall an easier solution and gets around clever Adv/Disadv tricks later.

As for dumb fighter later having a positive INT mod due to high level PB? Since that only really happens after many levels to offset the negative, I wouldn't worry about it at all. Dumb 9th lvl fighter can still be assumed to have gleaned something from his adventures. However GM judgment naturally applies, so detailed arcana or history may still be beyond the fighter to even roll.

Quote from: cranebump;865402
I'm settled on using Ability checks over skills, for sure (for now). On that, It looks like the PHB option is to grant an extra ability proficiency to a class with Expertise. From what I can tell, characters have 1 proficient ability for Class, and one for Background. Rogues get a third when they achieve expertise. That is, if I am interpreting that option correctly?

I only have the Basic PHB amd Basic MM/DMG as core. Could you cite in part that optional text? You're probably right, but I don't understand what they mean "proficient ability" in that context, as I'm used to that reserved for discussing saves.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 05:04:27 AM by Opaopajr »
Just make your fuckin' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what's interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it's more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman