I could give Elves generally some Perception bonus which increase ranges of their shooting and spoting through not rolls themselves.
So low Dex Elf would still be weak shoter.

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 02, 2021, 09:30:13 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2021, 08:20:47 PM

Quote from: palaeomerus on August 01, 2021, 08:10:43 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2021, 02:47:48 PM

This much is true to a point. Unless in the setting you define certain cultures, for instance: Dwarves are a hardy race, honorable to a fault, magic resistant,etc.

How would you justify now a Dwarven thief in good standing with Dwarven society? Or a Dwarven Wizard?

But both are GM/player territory probably best served by home brew.

A Wizard might be seen as a fringe engineer of some sort experimenting with the same forces the elves use but in a Dwarvish way since magical donkeys would be nice to turn a millstone or something? Would be something of a cultural outsider weirdo like a mad scientist who is always on the edge of being on the outs but maybe stays on the right side of line. Might still be respectable even if he gives people a bad feeling about what he does down in his labs.

A Dwarven thief might be okay if he were a repo-man and a locksmith who had those skills but not really the same "profession" or criminal status. That assumes Dwarven concepts of contract and ownership are not all based on possession but on some codified legal right tied to a purchase or grant or formalized transfer.

But magical resistance isn't cultural but genetic. It's not Dwarves reject magic, it's they are magic resistant.

On the rest, yes, I agree, you can workaround the limitations by creating a new class with the same class skils but used in a different way or for different reasons.

Not all versions of dwarves have magic resistance. It's not a feature of either the 4E or 5e dwarves (they resist poison though).

Likewise, wizard and sorcerer (and rogues/thief) have been class options for dwarves for more than 20 years now.

In my setting the common history is that the dwarves invented (not discovered, invented) arcane magic as a weapon to fight the Demon Empire and are some of its greatest practitioners in both wizardry and the forging of magic devices.

Also... why would you need a new class for dwarves skilled in working with locks and traps? Because the name on the tin says "thief?" Hell, using the Rogue as a merchant or well-schooled aristocrat (8+Int skill points per level and a very broad skill list makes them an ideal "skill monkey") was a thing even in 3.0e and 3.5e doubled down with things like skill tricks.

I mean, we are in a topic about making a clone of 5e and not an OSR system so the points above should just be taken as a matter of course.

Sorry, my bad I forgot the tendency to make all races equal and nothing more than humans in a ruber costume.

I would revert to having more differentiated races.

QuoteSorry, my bad I forgot the tendency to make all races equal and nothing more than humans in a ruber costume.

You can have variety of biologically different races and still make them culturally diverse. Otherwise maybe it's better to make them mystical manifestations of platonic ideas from Fey Realm.
But if they are biological demi-humans, then yes sort of they are short, bearded, ill tempered humans. Oh well.

Of course some aspects of it can be remedied if you have dunno only one place on planet when dwarves lives, then surely monoculturalism will be way more probable.

Quote from: Wrath of God on August 02, 2021, 12:40:21 PM

QuoteSorry, my bad I forgot the tendency to make all races equal and nothing more than humans in a ruber costume.

You can have variety of biologically different races and still make them culturally diverse. Otherwise maybe it's better to make them mystical manifestations of platonic ideas from Fey Realm.
But if they are biological demi-humans, then yes sort of they are short, bearded, ill tempered humans. Oh well.

This is my longstanding rule that there's not half-anything peeking out: No one can interbreed with other races.

In my games Elves, Dwarves, Halflings aren't demi-humans but humanoid. And I tend to forget that vanilla D&D isn't like that much less the "you can play a zany tiefling" 5e

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 02, 2021, 12:34:41 PM
Sorry, my bad I forgot the tendency to make all races equal and nothing more than humans in a ruber costume.

I would revert to having more differentiated races.

Sorry, my bad. I forgot some people are only upset at the SJWs because they took the gatekeeper for the hobby spot they wanted for themselves.

See how that passive aggressive bullshit solves absolutely nothing?

Just because two races/species/kinds can both work magic, pray to deities, fight or skulk about doesn't makes them "equal." It just means they can do very basic things common to most species in a fantasy setting... their racial traits influence how those things are expressed though if your system actually has any meat to it.

My elves, for example, are the astral servitors of the goddess of dreams/illusions who were trapped in the world by the Cataclysm. They have the spark of divinity inside them that makes them truly immortal (even if killed, they will reincarnate in the womb of an elven mother) and grants each of them a divine gift associated with those people often have in dreams.

The high elves are the dreams of kings, bishops and heroes; larger than life and possessed of immense charisma. Their gifts reflect this with abilities like flight or immense physical prowess or manifestations of divine power.

The common elves are the dreams of commoners; roughly human-sized and possessed of simple gifts that make certain professions easier (ex. what smith wouldn't dream of a forge that never needs stoking?).

The low elves are the dreams of the serfs and slaves. They are smaller than men and their gifts are small dreams like having enough food to eat or being able to slip from sight or go unnoticed.

Because of these particular proficiencies and traits and the mortal world being nowhere near as malleable as the dream realms, elves tend to fall into caste-based hierarchies with the lesser elves laboring to provide a life for the high elves as close to the ones they enjoyed in the dream realms and utterly lacking in hope of becoming more than they are. Those that do have such dreams tend to abandon elven societies entirely and get labeled as "dark elves"; the criminal/untouchable class to be killed on sight in order to recycle them back into the proper place within elven society.

The dwarves are men who were transmuted by the demons to be better laborers for their hellish mines, but did so shoddily such that their limbs and organs wear out at different rates (which isn't a problem when you were intended to be worked to death by the age of 25). But the dwarves invented arcane magic to fight the demons and, in the aftermath of the victory turned their knowledge towards replacing their limbs and organs with arcane artifice as they failed; not just replacing but improving on what was lost. The risk of reproductive organ failure means that dwarves tend to have families early in life (marriage at 15-16 is common; most are grandparents by their mid-30's) and then pursue other interests later in life once their family line is secure.

Depending on what has failed, the dwarf might have darkvision, a cast iron stomach, iron lungs, a mechanical arm with a hand that can turn into any smithing tool, etc. The eldest dwarves become nearly entirely composed of artifice; basically arcane cyborgs with their brains inside a superhuman metal body where they can provide guidance to their families for centuries.

Yeah, both can be wizards and thieves, but tell me, how are those sorts of differences I laid out "rubber costume" territory?

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 02, 2021, 02:05:06 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 02, 2021, 12:34:41 PM
Sorry, my bad I forgot the tendency to make all races equal and nothing more than humans in a ruber costume.

I would revert to having more differentiated races.

Sorry, my bad. I forgot some people are only upset at the SJWs because they took the gatekeeper for the hobby spot they wanted for themselves.

See how that passive aggressive bullshit solves absolutely nothing?

Just because two races/species/kinds can both work magic, pray to deities, fight or skulk about doesn't makes them "equal." It just means they can do very basic things common to most species in a fantasy setting... their racial traits influence how those things are expressed though if your system actually has any meat to it.

My elves, for example, are the astral servitors of the goddess of dreams/illusions who were trapped in the world by the Cataclysm. They have the spark of divinity inside them that makes them truly immortal (even if killed, they will reincarnate in the womb of an elven mother) and grants each of them a divine gift associated with those people often have in dreams.

The high elves are the dreams of kings, bishops and heroes; larger than life and possessed of immense charisma. Their gifts reflect this with abilities like flight or immense physical prowess or manifestations of divine power.

The common elves are the dreams of commoners; roughly human-sized and possessed of simple gifts that make certain professions easier (ex. what smith wouldn't dream of a forge that never needs stoking?).

The low elves are the dreams of the serfs and slaves. They are smaller than men and their gifts are small dreams like having enough food to eat or being able to slip from sight or go unnoticed.

Because of these particular proficiencies and traits and the mortal world being nowhere near as malleable as the dream realms, elves tend to fall into caste-based hierarchies with the lesser elves laboring to provide a life for the high elves as close to the ones they enjoyed in the dream realms and utterly lacking in hope of becoming more than they are. Those that do have such dreams tend to abandon elven societies entirely and get labeled as "dark elves"; the criminal/untouchable class to be killed on sight in order to recycle them back into the proper place within elven society.

The dwarves are men who were transmuted by the demons to be better laborers for their hellish mines, but did so shoddily such that their limbs and organs wear out at different rates (which isn't a problem when you were intended to be worked to death by the age of 25). But the dwarves invented arcane magic to fight the demons and, in the aftermath of the victory turned their knowledge towards replacing their limbs and organs with arcane artifice as they failed; not just replacing but improving on what was lost. The risk of reproductive organ failure means that dwarves tend to have families early in life (marriage at 15-16 is common; most are grandparents by their mid-30's) and then pursue other interests later in life once their family line is secure.

Depending on what has failed, the dwarf might have darkvision, a cast iron stomach, iron lungs, a mechanical arm with a hand that can turn into any smithing tool, etc. The eldest dwarves become nearly entirely composed of artifice; basically arcane cyborgs with their brains inside a superhuman metal body where they can provide guidance to their families for centuries.

Yeah, both can be wizards and thieves, but tell me, how are those sorts of differences I laid out "rubber costume" territory?

Sorry, my bad forgot some people like to project their characteristics onto others.

NOW I'm being passive aggressive.

I was strictly talking about 5e and D&D in general, YOU took it as a personal attack.

Not reading the rest, thank you.

QuoteThis is my longstanding rule that there's not half-anything peeking out: No one can interbreed with other races.

In my games Elves, Dwarves, Halflings aren't demi-humans but humanoid. And I tend to forget that vanilla D&D isn't like that much less the "you can play a zany tiefling" 5e

That's not even the point whether there is half-something. It's more pardon me Marxist "social being define concioussness". Dwarves, halflings, elves in basic vanilla D&D, whether able to mix with humans and themselves, whether you call them humanoids or demihumans, are objectively human-like. While size varies - they are build like humans, talk like humans, have human like features, eat more or less like humans, and so on, and so on. They are on functional level as human as you can be when being not Homo sapiens.

Unlike you rewrite them as something very different - like let's say Gloranta with plant elves, and stone dwarves, and duck halflings, or some setting where all demihumans are inherently fey beings like in old Anderson novels, they are very much humans with minor changes. Damn in Tolkien world paragon of elfo-dwarven fantasy by word of Tolkien - Elves are the same species as Men (because they are meant to be more or less Pre-Fall Edenian Men.) Hobbits are literally pygmy ofshot of humanity, and so on, and so on.

So yes I expect that while physiology and some common mental traits will influence such beings, that overall they would be way more simmilar to humans than dragons, reptilians or elementals.
Which also implies for me at least that their cultures will be as much manifestiation of their surroundings, places they live, ways they survive, ergo marxist "social being" as their very human like biology. So jungle societies of various kin can have vastly more in common than their biological cousins from harsh norther mountains, deserts and so on.

And now don't get me wrong - I like making some mental changes in other species, to make it more than rubber skin, but high cultural concepts are not one of them - as they are matter of nurture not of being born - that's why human infants raised by literal wolves turns out to be feral adults, among species like human your social self is built by interaction. As even Bible says that "faith cames from listening", and so on.

Now sure you can make elves zany fey beings born from flowers with innate fey knowledge. But if they are biological beings of flesh and blood of Prime Material, then considering their anatomy - they have to be very human-like.

Quote from: Wrath of God on August 02, 2021, 03:08:49 PM

QuoteThis is my longstanding rule that there's not half-anything peeking out: No one can interbreed with other races.

In my games Elves, Dwarves, Halflings aren't demi-humans but humanoid. And I tend to forget that vanilla D&D isn't like that much less the "you can play a zany tiefling" 5e

That's not even the point whether there is half-something. It's more pardon me Marxist "social being define concioussness". Dwarves, halflings, elves in basic vanilla D&D, whether able to mix with humans and themselves, whether you call them humanoids or demihumans, are objectively human-like. While size varies - they are build like humans, talk like humans, have human like features, eat more or less like humans, and so on, and so on. They are on functional level as human as you can be when being not Homo sapiens.

Unlike you rewrite them as something very different - like let's say Gloranta with plant elves, and stone dwarves, and duck halflings, or some setting where all demihumans are inherently fey beings like in old Anderson novels, they are very much humans with minor changes. Damn in Tolkien world paragon of elfo-dwarven fantasy by word of Tolkien - Elves are the same species as Men (because they are meant to be more or less Pre-Fall Edenian Men.) Hobbits are literally pygmy ofshot of humanity, and so on, and so on.

So yes I expect that while physiology and some common mental traits will influence such beings, that overall they would be way more simmilar to humans than dragons, reptilians or elementals.
Which also implies for me at least that their cultures will be as much manifestiation of their surroundings, places they live, ways they survive, ergo marxist "social being" as their very human like biology. So jungle societies of various kin can have vastly more in common than their biological cousins from harsh norther mountains, deserts and so on.

And now don't get me wrong - I like making some mental changes in other species, to make it more than rubber skin, but high cultural concepts are not one of them - as they are matter of nurture not of being born - that's why human infants raised by literal wolves turns out to be feral adults, among species like human your social self is built by interaction. As even Bible says that "faith cames from listening", and so on.

Now sure you can make elves zany fey beings born from flowers with innate fey knowledge. But if they are biological beings of flesh and blood of Prime Material, then considering their anatomy - they have to be very human-like.

It's been theorized that, given the little genetic difference in our make up, we could probably interbreed with chimps and/or bonobos. Probably the offspring would turn out to be sterile. Long standing barrier between two closely related species is being able to procreate fertile offspring.

Now, being humanlike (humanoid) and being human isn't the same thing by a country mile.

A robotic sex doll is humanlike (humanoid) no one would argue it's human.

I know how D&D treats Elves and the rest, which is why I specify this is MY rule on MY games. I tend to make all different species, unable to interbreed, because?

I have never been asked to elaborate but if I had to I would say they look like humans because of:

Convergent evolution.

A very distant common ancestor but so far back they can't interbreed anymore.

Thier deity created them ex nihilo like that, and all their characteristics are hard coded by said creator.

They don't but their inherent glamour is used to seem like humans.

The last one I'm using on a human centric game where all other species are nothing but types of Fey and evil, just like in the original folklore. But this game is in it's very early stage of development and only 4 people so far have played in a world that had this type of creatures and that was just a setting for D&D.

I could probably think of more reasons that make it semi plausible their existence with their looks.

QuoteIt's been theorized that, given the little genetic difference in our make up, we could probably interbreed with chimps and/or bonobos. Probably the offspring would turn out to be sterile. Long standing barrier between two closely related species is being able to procreate fertile offspring.

Well sure but what bonobos have to do with our discussion.

QuoteNow, being humanlike (humanoid) and being human isn't the same thing by a country mile.

Well that depends. If we have species, biological being which is very human like (we can safely say most humanoids are way closer to human than theoretical chimps) then it's quite close there. Because biological species are ruled by certain rules. And humanoid species are ruled by what such form can realistically aquire. (That's why realistic dwarves should use spears not axes in melee )

QuoteI know how D&D treats Elves and the rest, which is why I specify this is MY rule on MY games. I tend to make all different species, unable to interbreed, because?

But I do not seek explanation of why they are sterile - that's your fiat I guess, there are many easy explanation - you've given them.
I speak more about matter of how cultures evolve depending of conditions of life - and it's on purely biological perspective inevitable.
So let's see:

QuoteConvergent evolution

Well and convergent evolution causes non-closely-related species to operate with simmilar modus operandi. Great sea lizards and great predatory whales. Real dogs and dog like hyana species.
Giant sea sloths and sirens. Falcons and hawks. Herons and storks. So still if elves are convergently evolved gazellas, and dwarves are convergently evolved crocodiles - if they evolved to human like shape, and human like intellect I expect them to be very human-like in modus operandi. So their desert, seafaring, forest, highlander, steppe cultures would share much between species based on living conditions and necessities it bring with.

QuoteA very distant common ancestor but so far back they can't interbreed anymore.

As said above.

QuoteThier deity created them ex nihilo like that, and all their characteristics are hard coded by said creator.

As I said Glorantha like setting where elves and dwarves are very specific divine creations fits that, and sure then you can hard boil very rigid psychology that would be hindering for natural intelligent species with aspirations of spreading and advancement.

QuoteThey don't but their inherent glamour is used to seem like humans.

Fine by me. Then they are something inhuman and they should have inhuman ways of life.

QuoteThe last one I'm using on a human centric game where all other species are nothing but types of Fey and evil, just like in the original folklore. But this game is in it's very early stage of development and only 4 people so far have played in a world that had this type of creatures and that was just a setting for D&D.

That's fine. As I said - if elves are fey by nature I have no qualms about their mentality being unrealisticly rigid for natural intelligent species. That's totes fine.

The woke view of race is absolutely a rubber costume. Its mascot is Trudeau in black face. They don't want to roleplay as an elf, they want to cosplay as an elf. The Kryptonite to this horror show ideology is genetic differences hardwired into the system. We have passed the point in 5e (with the latest updates) where there is more diversity in terms of genetic differences in real world human populations than there is between the fantasy RPG world "races".

Quote from: mightybrain on August 02, 2021, 06:55:34 PM
The woke view of race is absolutely a rubber costume. Its mascot is Trudeau in black face. They don't want to roleplay as an elf, they want to cosplay as an elf. The Kryptonite to this horror show ideology is genetic differences hardwired into the system. We have passed the point in 5e (with the latest updates) where there is more diversity in terms of genetic differences in real world human populations than there is between the fantasy RPG world "races".

All well and good, but I'm still waiting for an explanation of why genetic differences mean all elves (even baby elves apparently*) know how to fire longbows effectively even if they've never seen one before because they were raised by wolves and why all dwarves can wield axes (but only axes, not maces or hammers that have similar basic use principles) as well as a trained human warrior even if they've never handled one before in their lives.

That's what actually started this divergence from the topic of creating a 5e clone.

* yes, I'm exaggerating for effect, but the notion of universal weapon skills regardless their upbringing just rubs me the wrong way.

QuoteThe woke view of race is absolutely a rubber costume. Its mascot is Trudeau in black face. They don't want to roleplay as an elf, they want to cosplay as an elf. The Kryptonite to this horror show ideology is genetic differences hardwired into the system. We have passed the point in 5e (with the latest updates) where there is more diversity in terms of genetic differences in real world human populations than there is between the fantasy RPG world "races".

The problem is those differences were never baked into D&D more than human in rubber costume that may hinder Dex a bit or improve it a bit due to supper googles but ultimately it's costume.
And since D&D never really supported playing really alien species, most of people played them as basically humans with few extra notes. Wanna really make those species non-human - you need some psychology/culture mechanics that will actively enforce certain choices on player. And Players hates losing control over choices... so... good luck

Greetings!

In my campaign, I have numerous races, and trainloads of mutants and crossbreeds. Many races have very distinct attributes, though many of the lesser half-breeds and partial mutants tend to have a more simplified attribute profile. Making every kind of race and crazy half-breed mutant super-distinct can get to be a problem, after awhile, mechanically-speaking. Over all though, the benefits outweigh the relatively minor negatives. The players of course enjoy letting their choices run wild, and, as the DM, having a basic framework allows the inclusion of whatever kind of mutant race that the campaign might need, or desire, for whatever reason.

In general, I usually prefer a strongly human-centric party and a society, with traditional races contributing. I'm not a huge fan of crazy zoos, but I also admit to having a somewhat contradictory appreciation for the strange, mythical, and wondrous possibilities of including whatever kind of fucked up mutant race. Some of them, of course, can add a great deal of nuance, wonder, and drama to the group and the campaign, and help to add layers of distinction that can make any given campaign into having a very different feel from the traditional vanilla fantasy.

I designed my game world so that I have some regions that are more traditional vanilla fantasy, while some other areas are more "Gonzo". Then again, the way I have designed everything, any place can be more or less traditional or "Gonzo", just by choosing how much *presence* the zoo races have in the immediate area. More so, then they can be present more, and more active. Less so, they can be more distant and on the margins.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 02, 2021, 07:10:29 PM

Quote from: mightybrain on August 02, 2021, 06:55:34 PM
The woke view of race is absolutely a rubber costume. Its mascot is Trudeau in black face. They don't want to roleplay as an elf, they want to cosplay as an elf. The Kryptonite to this horror show ideology is genetic differences hardwired into the system. We have passed the point in 5e (with the latest updates) where there is more diversity in terms of genetic differences in real world human populations than there is between the fantasy RPG world "races".

All well and good, but I'm still waiting for an explanation of why genetic differences mean all elves (even baby elves apparently*) know how to fire longbows effectively even if they've never seen one before because they were raised by wolves and why all dwarves can wield axes (but only axes, not maces or hammers that have similar basic use principles) as well as a trained human warrior even if they've never handled one before in their lives.

That's what actually started this divergence from the topic of creating a 5e clone.

* yes, I'm exaggerating for effect, but the notion of universal weapon skills regardless their upbringing just rubs me the wrong way.

Assuming Elves, Dwarves & Halflings are endemic to the world and can be found in different environments. In adition to assuming ALL we know (about jack shit) about the only inteligent species we know (Humans) can be applied to them.

Then sure, they should be as varied as humans are depending of the environment, but why stop at culture?

We know humans evolved to adapt to different environments, white skin and narrow nose aren't as usefull in the African Jungle as in Europe, and viceversa, dark skin and broad nose aren't as useful in Europe as in the African Jungle.

The Inuit have very narrow eyes for a reason.

So you'd have as much of a diverse skin tone and facial features among them as among humans.

On the other hand if we don't assume Dwarves, Elves and Halflings are endemic to the world but to a region of it...

Then the logical conclusion would be the opposite.

And this opens up the possibility of getting a PC from a different species endemic of a different region of said world.

As for communications...

It's a world where magic is real and the gods do intervene, so right there you have a workable option to telephone, telegraph and even videophone. Not to mention to automobiles, trains, ships and planes since teleṕortation is a thing too.

Given these facts of the game world...

Why would Dwarven culture differ too much depending where in the world they are?