Quote from: tenbones on August 04, 2021, 08:19:08 AM...
So I'd rebalance the level progression to 10-levels. But I'd scale things so that 10th level play would be closer to ~15th+ level play in the current 20-lvl spread.

Good Post.  Alternately, you can do what I did.  Have 24 levels, but only give the traditional D&D bumps about every other level, which is effectively 12 levels with "half levels" built in for a finer grain, but without the hassle of "half levels".  The key is that I know the design is really about 12 levels spread over that, including only bumping hit points every other level and other numbers scaled to match.  Note, only makes sense if you are going to make use of that finer grain in other ways, as I am.

Or if you prefer another slant, you may have good reasons to use more than 10 to 12 levels, but "fireball" and fighters extra attacks and more hit points still has a point where it ideally goes, and it doesn't always match exactly where it was in the source material based on your other design decisions.  If in the course of allocating all of those, you find yourself filling in stuff just to fill it in--then you don't need that many levels.

To Tenbones & Steven Michel, Re scaling levels down:

I have no problem with this, my favourite OSR IS WBFMAG and it only goes up to 10 levels.

As for remaking the classes, maybe we need a class builder? Something like White Lies published for free adapted to the game?

If you haven't read it you might find it interesting, it weighs everything and has tables to check the XP cost, so you can build a class rather quickly and the math is all there for future GM's to use in the making of their own Monk if needed.

It would also help in balancing the Classes.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 04, 2021, 10:34:49 AM
To Tenbones & Steven Michel, Re scaling levels down:

I have no problem with this, my favourite OSR IS WBFMAG and it only goes up to 10 levels.

As for remaking the classes, maybe we need a class builder? Something like White Lies published for free adapted to the game?

If you haven't read it you might find it interesting, it weighs everything and has tables to check the XP cost, so you can build a class rather quickly and the math is all there for future GM's to use in the making of their own Monk if needed.

It would also help in balancing the Classes.

Just an observation; this is rapidly crossing over into the "not a clone, at best a spiritual successor" territory just like my 4E-based project started out as before principles of good design demanded changes (including many of the same observations of where the problem points lie; my system started out capping at 15* vs. the 30 levels 4E had for precisely the same observed reason).

This goes to my original point; there's not enough both unique and mechanically solid enough to make 5e (like 4E before it) worth doing a straight clone of***. at best all these efforts turn into rummaging through 4E/5e's pockets for anything worth stealing and applying those to a system built with a much better foundation.**

* While 15 is technically max level for the system, the assumption I wrote the system with is that most campaigns will peak at about level 11 and finish somewhere between that and max level without necessarily reaching it.

The actual default assumptions laid out in the GM material is you'll level up after a number of challenging adventures equal to your level so you'll reach level 2 after your first adventure, level 6 after about 15 adventures, and level 11 after 55 adventures (a bit over a year of weekly sessions), with level 15 taking about 120 adventures (two and a third years of weekly sessions).

The GM can tweak that obviously, but the general idea is that levels 3-11 are basically the game's sweet spot with levels 1-2 being about a three session warm up and 12+ being for hardcore players who want to squeeze every bit of play out of those particular characters they can.

** Even the mostly straight clone of 3.5e that was Pathfinder was mostly a result of WotC cutting off Paizo's main revenue stream and Paizo needing basically a straight clone of 3.5e to maintain its business model. The actual value of a straight clone if the industry hadn't largely been lured into the d20/OGL trap beforehand would be dubious at best.

*** ETA: to clarify, there's a huge difference between releasing 5e compatible 3rd party material during 5e's actual life cycle and producing a straight clone of 5e to continue such 3rd party material after 5e has been retired for 6e.

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 04, 2021, 12:50:26 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 04, 2021, 10:34:49 AM
To Tenbones & Steven Michel, Re scaling levels down:

I have no problem with this, my favourite OSR IS WBFMAG and it only goes up to 10 levels.

As for remaking the classes, maybe we need a class builder? Something like White Lies published for free adapted to the game?

If you haven't read it you might find it interesting, it weighs everything and has tables to check the XP cost, so you can build a class rather quickly and the math is all there for future GM's to use in the making of their own Monk if needed.

It would also help in balancing the Classes.

Just an observation; this is rapidly crossing over into the "not a clone, at best a spiritual successor" territory just like my 4E-based project started out as before principles of good design demanded changes (including many of the same observations of where the problem points lie; my system started out capping at 15* vs. the 30 levels 4E had for precisely the same observed reason).

This goes to my original point; there's not enough both unique and mechanically solid enough to make 5e (like 4E before it) worth doing a straight clone of***. at best all these efforts turn into rummaging through 4E/5e's pockets for anything worth stealing and applying those to a system built with a much better foundation.**

* While 15 is technically max level for the system, the assumption I wrote the system with is that most campaigns will peak at about level 11 and finish somewhere between that and max level without necessarily reaching it.

The actual default assumptions laid out in the GM material is you'll level up after a number of challenging adventures equal to your level so you'll reach level 2 after your first adventure, level 6 after about 15 adventures, and level 11 after 55 adventures (a bit over a year of weekly sessions), with level 15 taking about 120 adventures (two and a third years of weekly sessions).

The GM can tweak that obviously, but the general idea is that levels 3-11 are basically the game's sweet spot with levels 1-2 being about a three session warm up and 12+ being for hardcore players who want to squeeze every bit of play out of those particular characters they can.

** Even the mostly straight clone of 3.5e that was Pathfinder was mostly a result of WotC cutting off Paizo's main revenue stream and Paizo needing basically a straight clone of 3.5e to maintain its business model. The actual value of a straight clone if the industry hadn't largely been lured into the d20/OGL trap beforehand would be dubious at best.

*** ETA: to clarify, there's a huge difference between releasing 5e compatible 3rd party material during 5e's actual life cycle and producing a straight clone of 5e to continue such 3rd party material after 5e has been retired for 6e.

As long as you can run existing material with little to no work from the GM...