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Author Topic: 5e non-woke "Clone" what would you remove or add?  (Read 10941 times)

Chris24601

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Re: 5e non-woke "Clone" what would you remove or add?
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2021, 05:20:30 PM »
You changed everything to such a point where it no longer resembles 5e (or D&D) at all.
It actually plays a LOT like D&D at the table, but yes, your noting thst its NOT 5e is entirely the point that I even opened with. Like Steven Mitchell there is almost no overlap between 5e mechanics I like and a game I would find worth my time to write.

Frankly, the easy clone is to just cut-and-paste its SRD, apply new fonts/formatting to it and drop some creative commons artwork in it and call it done. But that’s literally all would do because I legitimately do not care enough about something as half-assed mechanically as 5e is to fight the parts I do not like to try and make something I do like.

To put it another way, unlike the 3e/4E divide where there was a huge change of direction, there is almost nothing about 5e’s mechanics that makes it sell better than other editions/clones. It’s entirely that it has the D&D brand name (and cross-promotion via shows like Stranger Things), it was marketed as a return to form/nostalgia/not 4E, and, presently, inertia.

None of its actual selling points is something you could actually use to market a 5e retroclone (indeed, the OGL outright forbids you from even being able to reference its compatibility with 5e D&D by name... which is why you always get euphemisms like “compatible with the 5th edition of the world’s most popular role-playing game.”).

Cave Bear

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Re: 5e non-woke "Clone" what would you remove or add?
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2021, 06:47:50 PM »
The game I'm currently designing is just about as far as 5E D&D as you can possibly a get. A friend of mine has described it as something out of an alternate-timeline. Others that have seen it have described it as:
Riddle of Steel with cards instead of dice
4E D&D, but Dark Souls instead of World of Warcraft
Some bits of Ars Magica, but more like Fullmetal Alchemist
Warhammer Fantasy but Anime

As for 5E non-woke clones, I would be more interested in adapting Tome of Battle, Expanded Psionics Handbook, and Magic of Incarnum from 3.5 to 5e with bits and pieces of Mongoose Conan d20. If D&D is fantasy super-heroes now, then lean into it. 
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 07:03:14 PM by Cave Bear »

Zelen

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Re: 5e non-woke "Clone" what would you remove or add?
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2021, 07:22:44 PM »
Reinventing the wheel too much defeats the purpose of a clone. Fantasy heartbreaker TTRPG is a different story.

- Do a second pass on the various path choices for each class to make them more varied.  That is, slightly less items from the base class and slightly more from the path.
- Make the Ranger (and Paladin if kept) not casters by default, but have them with a path caster options, similar to how the Fighter and Rogue have their casting paths.

But the biggest one of all (and traipsing into non-clone territory) is generally shrink the numbers all around.  In particular, make hit points scale more slowly with level.

I favor these suggestions. 5E is shallow on player choice/expression through mechanics.
I also think it's silly how the core classes are almost all spellcasters in some way, which favors a high-magic fantasy style that doesn't really model most fantasy fiction well.

Cave Bear

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Re: 5e non-woke "Clone" what would you remove or add?
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2021, 07:44:52 PM »
Does 5E allow you to mix and match patch choices? You can allow more variety with fewer choices simply by allowing more combinations. Previous editions had massive game breaking problems with that, but we live in an age of AI playtesting. (Reference: https://youtu.be/X8nnCPl_uwc

Actually, I think AI playtesting is the one big thing I would add. It won't tell you if your game is fun, but if you're trying to evaluate whether a new feat or path is broken, algorithms will give you much more comprehensive and concrete data on the problem.

Zelen

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Re: 5e non-woke "Clone" what would you remove or add?
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2021, 08:20:40 PM »
Does 5E allow you to mix and match patch choices? You can allow more variety with fewer choices simply by allowing more combinations. Previous editions had massive game breaking problems with that, but we live in an age of AI playtesting. (Reference: https://youtu.be/X8nnCPl_uwc

Actually, I think AI playtesting is the one big thing I would add. It won't tell you if your game is fun, but if you're trying to evaluate whether a new feat or path is broken, algorithms will give you much more comprehensive and concrete data on the problem.

Keep in mind that RPG rulebooks are printed with typos and game systems regularly have no-brainer mathematically best choices. I don't think AI playtesting is in the cards.

Cave Bear

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Re: 5e non-woke "Clone" what would you remove or add?
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2021, 08:26:17 PM »
Keep in mind that RPG rulebooks are printed with typos and game systems regularly have no-brainer mathematically best choices. I don't think AI playtesting is in the cards.

Typos are not a playtesting problem though. That's an editing problem. Obviously an AI won't fix that but that doesn't make it any less effective for the problems it is intended to fix. The no-brainer mathematically best choices are exactly the kind of problems that AI playtesting can solve.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 08:32:06 PM by Cave Bear »

Aglondir

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Re: 5e non-woke "Clone" what would you remove or add?
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2021, 09:02:26 PM »
Quote from: Zelen link=topic=43801.msg1180859#msg1180859
Replace Good/Evil axis with Based/Woke in all alignment descriptions
Deplorable/Woke

Edit: I'd ditch classes and go with Backgrounds only. Scholar gets arcane spells, Acolyte gets divine spells, Hermit gets druid spells. Bards, paladins, and rangers are half-casters, respectively. No one else gets spells. No monk, no warlock, no sorcerer. But that's more 6E than 5E.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 09:21:57 PM by Aglondir »

dkabq

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Re: 5e non-woke "Clone" what would you remove or add?
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2021, 06:54:17 AM »
I have only played 5E once (ran the Big Boss for a friend's game). Nothing about the mechanics seemed "woke". Also, from my conversations with the DM and players in that game, it does not sound like there in anything in the basic chargen that is "woke". Rather the "woke" is in the WotC milieu (campaign guides), adventures, and supplement rulebooks (e.g., Tasha's Cauldron of Everything).

Also, it seems to me that most, if not all, of the mods suggested in this topic have nothing to do with removing "woke".

So to me it seems that the key to making 5E not "woke" is to not play it as "woke".

YMMV.

Chris24601

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Re: 5e non-woke "Clone" what would you remove or add?
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2021, 08:36:44 AM »
Also, it seems to me that most, if not all, of the mods suggested in this topic have nothing to do with removing "woke".
That’s because we’re not really talking about preserving the initial non-woke 5e as is. We’re really talking about what sort of Pathfinder-like changes that should be made to a clone after the inevitable woke 6e releases.

Basically some people seem to think lightning will strike twice and maybe they can be Paizo 2.0 with a retrocloned 5e+their personal house rules for it. My opinion is that the mechanics have almost nothing to do with why 5e sells so well and so the game to make to compete with 6e is just the best non-woke product you can conceive of.

ETA: Also, I don’t think mechanically 6e will be all that different from 5e, they’ll just change out the fluff text/art for woke versions, rename race to “ancestry” and assign -2 penalties to all checks for every one of white, male and heterosexual that apply to the PLAYER in the name of social justice and equity.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 08:41:33 AM by Chris24601 »

Steven Mitchell

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Re: 5e non-woke "Clone" what would you remove or add?
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2021, 09:04:26 AM »
Also, it seems to me that most, if not all, of the mods suggested in this topic have nothing to do with removing "woke".
That’s because we’re not really talking about preserving the initial non-woke 5e as is. We’re really talking about what sort of Pathfinder-like changes that should be made to a clone after the inevitable woke 6e releases.

Basically some people seem to think lightning will strike twice and maybe they can be Paizo 2.0 with a retrocloned 5e+their personal house rules for it. My opinion is that the mechanics have almost nothing to do with why 5e sells so well and so the game to make to compete with 6e is just the best non-woke product you can conceive of.

ETA: Also, I don’t think mechanically 6e will be all that different from 5e, they’ll just change out the fluff text/art for woke versions, rename race to “ancestry” and assign -2 penalties to all checks for every one of white, male and heterosexual that apply to the PLAYER in the name of social justice and equity.

I agree with Chris, and will extend that thought to other reasons to have an alternate game besides competing with 5E:  There are some solid rules in 5E, at least in part.  As rules go, it's larger issue is that it is trying to be all things to all people while written by a committee.  This "vision"--more than even their execrable fiction masquerading as adventure content--is the main limiting factor to its appeal. (It may seem strange to talk about a limiting factor with such a behemoth, but there it is.)  To frame it, then:

- The advantage of using 5E is that it is easy, accessible, and has a wide range of preset interest from the players.  Those are not small things!
- The advantage of using something more tightly designed is mainly that you can run a better game.  Where "better" is going to vary considerably depending on the interests of the group and the design of the rules.

A theoretical clone of 5E that is compatible enough to 5E to leverage that "easy, accessible" part needs to double-down on that to distinguish it from 5E.  "Not Woke" isn't nearly enough.  It's the opposite of the Knights of the Dinner Table running gag of Hackmaster ads--"Now with 200% more rules!"  "80% of 5E with 80% of the rough edges removed, and oh yeah, not pushing a narrative" is a competing game to 6E.  Add some additional options (e.g. easy domain management, a skills system that isn't a thin layer of fluff over the ability checks, etc.) and the selling point gets even easier.  Huge bonus points if you can write good GMing advice into the rules.

However, that game still isn't going to be as interesting at a given table as a more tightly designed game with a more narrow, focused appeal.  If your goal is to get the kind of game you want at your table (whether to sell or just to run), then 5E clone is not the way to go.  If your goal is to try to catch the lightning with a business plan, then you want to be the RPG design equivalent of Blizzard's World of Warcraft.  WoW took off not because Blizzard was innovative--they weren't.  Rather, they were relentless at focusing on and taking other peoples' innovations and making them as easy as possible to use and understand.  A successful 5E clone will be "More 5E than 5E was", if that makes sense.  Producing that takes a lot of elbow grease, attention to detail, and a pragmatic director who is ruthless in cutting out things that don't fit that idea.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 10:51:58 AM by Steven Mitchell »

Ghostmaker

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Re: 5e non-woke "Clone" what would you remove or add?
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2021, 10:03:18 AM »
I was thinking about the alignment question, and came up with a thought after helping a friend build a divine soul sorcerer character.

Instead of alignment, you have a trait called 'affinity'. You do not have to declare any affinity at the start, though at some point you may find yourself sliding into one or another. There are four types: law, chaos, good, and evil.

Developing an affinity gives you advantage in some situations, and disadvantage in others, especially when dealing with extraplanar entities. It also may affect certain spells or magic items.

Zelen

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Re: 5e non-woke "Clone" what would you remove or add?
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2021, 11:29:03 AM »
I have only played 5E once (ran the Big Boss for a friend's game). Nothing about the mechanics seemed "woke". Also, from my conversations with the DM and players in that game, it does not sound like there in anything in the basic chargen that is "woke". Rather the "woke" is in the WotC milieu (campaign guides), adventures, and supplement rulebooks (e.g., Tasha's Cauldron of Everything).

Also, it seems to me that most, if not all, of the mods suggested in this topic have nothing to do with removing "woke".

So to me it seems that the key to making 5E not "woke" is to not play it as "woke".

YMMV.

"Wokeness" is basically Zombie-ism writ large. The thing you're looking at isn't your loved one any longer, it's just using the corpse of someone you once loved to spread its virus. That's true whether it's D&D, or Star Wars, or your Alma Mater, or the US government.

We can try to ignore it, but that just means it's going to continue on destroying things and causing harm. You can try to keep it around by locking it up in a cage and ignore the bad smell and constant hungering for flesh, but eventually you'll get bitten.

The only long term plan is take everything worth taking, go someplace new and start building.

Ocule

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Re: 5e non-woke "Clone" what would you remove or add?
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2021, 12:36:19 PM »
Reduce the number of magic using classes drastically, to probably just the wizard and cleric as a first order of business, and add in a penalty for hitting 0 hit points such as fatigue.

Rework rest system, death and dying. reduce hit points drastically after level 10.

Tie spell scaling to caster level instead of spell slot level.

Remove drow, tieflings and dragonborn from core rulebook

Biggest change other than those things would be work modular options for tweak your game experience and remove forgotten realms as the assumed setting
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Steven Mitchell

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Re: 5e non-woke "Clone" what would you remove or add?
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2021, 01:18:12 PM »
Tie spell scaling to caster level instead of spell slot level.

Any particular reason why?  To me, that is one of the few things in later WotC changes that they got right.  It solves so many scaling problems.

Ocule

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Re: 5e non-woke "Clone" what would you remove or add?
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2021, 01:36:57 PM »
Tie spell scaling to caster level instead of spell slot level.

Any particular reason why?  To me, that is one of the few things in later WotC changes that they got right.  It solves so many scaling problems.

I found it does the opposite, that it just ensures that some spells are just completely worthless because theyre not worth the higher level slots. As caster level instead it allows your lower level spells to be worth more than just utility spells
Read my Consumer's Guide to TTRPGs
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