Quote from: strcondex18cha3 on August 03, 2021, 03:44:00 PMEast Africans have a clear endurance boost. West Africans clearly have more fast twitch muscle potential.

Sigh. That's a really broad brush you're using to paint a stereotype. It's not East Africans in general who win all those running awards. It's overwhelmingly the Oromo in Ethiopia and the Kalenjin of Kenya, who are a tiny percentage of the population of those countries. They live in a handful of villages in the Great Rift Valley. It seems to be due to a complex mix of diet, high altitudes, childhood behavior, running habits, cultural reinforcement, and other environmental factors. There may be a genetic component, but it hasn't been proven, and most of the supposed traits attributed to them in folklore have been proven to be false. The same is true for the runners of Jamaica, of West African descent.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/34/5/391
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Actn3-Genotype-Is-Not-Associated-With-Elite-Athlete-Yang-MacArthur/c7a8d3636b2013c4fe1c4edd176fae3187d8ce18
https://www.pubfacts.com/detail/20845221/ACTN3-R577X-and-other-polymorphisms-are-not-associated-with-elite-endurance-athlete-status-in-the-Ge
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/running-circles-around-us-east-african-olympians-advantage-may-be-more-than-physical/

If you're going to create alternate human races, you might as well go with something like Ringworld-level diversity. You could call some of the Homo sapiens variants things like ogres, ghouls, elves, and dwarves.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 03, 2021, 12:11:36 PM
To give just one example of what I mean, after deciding to start from scratch, I ended up with attributes of Might, Lore, Will, Dexterity, Agility, and Perception.  You might notice some distinct missing things.  Retrofitting that into 5E is difficult, even if you pretend that Lore is really Int and Will is really Wis (and they aren't, thus the rename, and if you twist them back to Int and Wis should change the names back, and around and around we go). I didn't decide that just to be different.  I didn't rename things to be cute.  I didn't pick 6 attributes in some kind of false symmetry to the source material.  Rather, I built the concepts I wanted, the classes and rules around them, and then named the things what they are.  Intelligence and Wisdom are something the player brings.  Charisma effects are off in another section of the rules entirely.  For my design goals, it's a reasonable sacrifice to say that Str/Con gets rolled up into Might, that Dex gets broken into Dex/Agi, and that perceptive characters pay for that with a lower attribute elsewhere.

I didn't try to deliberately as far from D&D as you did, but once I dropped the OGL/SRD and had to name my own stats, I did find NOT having to try and match the D&D expectations to be helpful.

Strength was a gimme for me just because its such a quantifiable real thing. For warriors it can even boost your performance with a Bow (you have the strength to hold the string back long enough to do some last moment aiming adjustments while a weaker person would have to aim as they're drawing because they don't have the strength to hold it once drawn). It can also aid with your armor defense because you have the strength to shift position rapidly despite the weight of your armor or shield on your limbs, making it easier for you to position it so the result is a glancing blow.

Endurance was necessary because my greater understanding of physical performance (its why the Fitness skill used to boost climbing, jumping, swimming and lifting is based on Endurance and not Strength, which is baseline performance without pushing yourself) and most of the limited use boosts to abilities being based on "pushing yourself/digging into your long term reserves" in order to remain something character facing rather than a metagame mechanic (i.e. a character can choose to really go all out and push themselves past their comfort zone... it doesn't require the player to step out of their PC's head and say "conditions are right for this to happen so I'm invoking ability X").

Reflexes was because, frankly, speed and hand-eye coordination are important things, but there's a lot of ground to cover in terms of stats and I really didn't want to go above 6 if I didn't have to. One important difference is that while it can be used for your Dodge defense, you can also use the Wits attribute (you notice the incoming danger earlier and so have more time to evade) and Dodge can be used in place of the Armor defense if its higher (rare if you're in medium armor and almost unheard of for heavy armor, but fairly common for light/no armor where a PC has neither high Strength nor Reflexes). With the right training you can use it to make accurate attacks with lighter weapons (including some heavier weapons used with both hands), but its largely useless with the heavy melee weapons even if you're a warrior.

Wits was what grew out of Wisdom and basically traded places with Intellect in terms of possibly determining your Willpower defense. It became mental reaction time and pattern recognition vs. any sort of willpower or spiritual understanding. Its main skills fall mostly under the pattern recognition side; Insight replaces Perception and is also a sort of hybrid with what used to be called Sense Motive. The idea is that you see what you see, you can't really train your eyes to see more clearly or your ears to hear softer sounds than they naturally do. What you CAN train is your ability to recognize and contextualize what you're perceiving. You learn what common cues are for various emotional states, you know the signs to look for when you're tracking quarry, etc. Medicine (particularly the basically battlefield variety most PCs will be employing on each other) and Nature are similarly about reading clues and signs to contextualize things and be able to act on the book learning in your head. Wits is also the primary casting attribute of natural spellcasters; Mystics and Sorcerers in my setting.

Intellect is basically your ability to reason and recall information without necessarily having context which is why Arcana (which is mostly about lore) and Culture (which is mostly about etiquette and plays a role in learning new languages) are both Intellect based along with Engineering. It also can be used for the Willpower defense, essentially using logic and reason to work past illusions and mystical compulsions and the like. Its the primary casting attribute for gadgeteers and wizards, both of which involve solving complex mathematics-like computations in real time in order to aim and direct their spells.

Lastly Presence is what it says on the tin. How much force of personality do you have; its the default for social interactions (though Wits can help in determining avenues of approach) but at best just affects how people take your words; they aren't mind control (ex. a high Persuade check against the King telling him that he should turn over rule of his kingdom to you means he takes it in the best way possible and presumes you are joking, a low check means he takes it in the worst possible way; that you are deliberately insulting the king by saying you can do a better job than him). It also lets you push through effects that target Willpower through sheer sense of self. It is the primary casting attribute of the Theurges (in D&D terms divine magic, though it also would include the D&D warlock) whose magic comes from making pacts/investitures with the Astral Gods and other astral powers so your own force of personality determines the power you coaxed from your pacts/investitures.

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 03:58:45 PM
I can't really find a good way to make a mechanical difference between male and female. Every time I try the male human ends up being objectively just better at everything necessary for adventuring. I can make an argument for a higher charisma cap for females, due to the tendencies of being much more social thus able to persuade people and attract more followers but even that it is hard to accurately represent through just attributes the various circumstances that go into being a leader. Unless the setting has certain gender restricted classes or roles....

But yeah, if i did ever implement something like that i'd give a cap to strength for females and maybe cap male charisma? Right now I just kind of roll with the idea that players are abnormal and just represent that in the world. It's rare for me to make a female town guard or soldier unless it's a clear exception, and not the norm.

If I were to apply them to my set of stats I'd give male humans a bonus to Strength and Reflexes and female humans a bonus to Wits and Presence. This would make human males naturally the best Fighters, human females the best Mystics and Theurges and neither sex having an advantage with the Mastermind, Wizard or Gadgeteer classes.

Now, within those categories though its worth noting that there are different focuses. Basically, each class has a set of options that correspond to the non-primary attributes for the class; Fighters have either Strength or Reflexes primary, so have options for Daring (Presence), Tactical (Intellect) or Wary (Wits) focuses each with their own benefits. Similarly, Mystics fall into four categories that align to Strength, Reflexes, Intellect and Presence; again each with their own benefits.

So female human mystics would be naturally best with the branch that also uses Presence and might be an okay Fighter if they went with the Daring or Wary focus (their primary wouldn't be as good, but their secondary would be better than a male with the same starting stats). Likewise, males would better at the Militant (Strength; your armored warpriest cleric as likely to smite you with his god's chosen weapon as a spell) path for the Theurge while females would be best at the Faithful path (Wits; light armor, best attacks are using magic).

This would create a distinct, but not rigorously enforced, divide between class preferences. Magic in this setting would more akin to the Colt pistol; an equalizer between the raw physical prowess of males compared to females; at least among the 1:100,000 population of adventurers who even HAVE magic.

And while I DO use the above as unstated guidelines for my sample PCs (there are 3 per race/kind in the book; the female human example is a spellcaster, the males are warriors), its basically not worth the effort in a world with playable dragons, minotaurs, lizardmen, dryads and mutants to bother with an extra level of distinction between male and female humans. Between the lingering magic radiation and unrealized minor genetic mutations that it can cause (if someone lives long enough in one of the Cataclysm hotspots their offspring are likely to be mutants not humans)... if someone wants to make a human female who's as strong as a male I really don't feel its a hill worth dying on to tell them no.

The list of olympic sprinters makes it abundantly clear who is talented.
Studies are increasingly unfiltered propaganda these days. They now have produced several papers showing that trannies are totally not insane, that people are comfortable with them around their children and so on.

It might not be the ACTN3 allele, it might be a hyper complex array of dozens of genes. But it does not matter. We know the result. When it comes to sprinting, there is practically no cultural filter in place. We all run. The Chinese select the best from a billion people who are highly motivated and train hard. Their system and facilities is miles ahead of anything the caribbean has to offer. It is ludicrous to tactically use genetics to disprove huge observable biological differences (I bet you love studies about IQ!). In 5-15 years, we will know which genes are responsible and they will cluster perfectly with west Africans. Just like all races have some unique talents by necessity.

Oh... I thought we were gonna talk about actual important system stuff.

We're still talking about identarian pseudo-politics as fun? Don't shit where you eat, boys.

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 03:58:45 PM
I can't really find a good way to make a mechanical difference between male and female. Every time I try the male human ends up being objectively just better at everything necessary for adventuring. I can make an argument for a higher charisma cap for females, due to the tendencies of being much more social thus able to persuade people and attract more followers but even that it is hard to accurately represent through just attributes the various circumstances that go into being a leader. Unless the setting has certain gender restricted classes or roles....

But yeah, if i did ever implement something like that i'd give a cap to strength for females and maybe cap male charisma? Right now I just kind of roll with the idea that players are abnormal and just represent that in the world. It's rare for me to make a female town guard or soldier unless it's a clear exception, and not the norm.

Yeah that's probably the best way for most campaigns.

Quote from: strcondex18cha3 on August 03, 2021, 04:40:12 PM
The list of olympic sprinters makes it abundantly clear who is talented.
Studies are increasingly unfiltered propaganda these days. They now have produced several papers showing that trannies are totally not insane, that people are comfortable with them around their children and so on.

It might not be the ACTN3 allele, it might be a hyper complex array of dozens of genes. But it does not matter. We know the result. When it comes to sprinting, there is practically no cultural filter in place. We all run. The Chinese select the best from a billion people who are highly motivated and train hard. Their system and facilities is miles ahead of anything the caribbean has to offer. It is ludicrous to tactically use genetics to disprove huge observable biological differences (I bet you love studies about IQ!). In 5-15 years, we will know which genes are responsible and they will cluster perfectly with west Africans. Just like all races have some unique talents by necessity.

Blah blah blah. Boring. This game sucks.

Quote from: strcondex18cha3 on August 03, 2021, 03:44:00 PM
Of course there are. There's a diving adapted race (I forgot the name) which would be a toal game changer in an aquatic setting. East Africans have a clear endurance boost. West Africans clearly have more fast twitch muscle potential. Europeans clearly have a creativity advantage. Pygmies obviously suffer from harsh penalties regarding height, strength and so on but are probably better hunters, something they are adapted towards. I could go on and on.

A game that is rooted in reality is more fun than a game that wants everybody to play in queer wonderland. You can go absolutely bonkers with a setting but there has to be the element of believability.

QuoteNot what most of us care about. Like we don't care about a game that "fights" colonialism/racism/etc.

You couldn't be more wrong because your default perspective has already been marximised. There's a reason you don't care about race. Because others who care about "colonialism" were the ones who brainwashed you in the first place regarding the irrelevancy of race.
You think some education gave you the insight to selectively ignore biology. But it's been carefully and methodically implanted in you, probably for decades.

We live in an age where anybody can just claim that he's a woman or a tree. Crucial biological differences are ignored because several factions (some are insane, others greedy or power hungry) serendipitously are in control over cultural narratives. They profit from this outrageous dissolution of self-evident truths. But it's not just a chaotic rule of mad despots, who liberally wield the whip, of course not. There's plenty of incentives for behaving. Adhering to these new norms gives people the illusion of "doing the right thing" or "speaking out against opression" - virtue signaling.

There's absolutely no reason to not include human races as a default.
In fact, this is part of the initial success of fantasy role playing games. An escapist vehicle with clear good and evil, heroes and villains, explicit races and implicit divine order.
And this is what they have been attacking over the last decade. And you are marching with them, your progressive friends are just two steps ahead. Don't worry, you'll catch up.

Congratulations, you just proved you're a racial essentialist, just like the SJWs.

Welcome to the muted zone.

Quote from: tenbones on August 03, 2021, 04:42:20 PM
Oh... I thought we were gonna talk about actual important system stuff.

We're still talking about identarian pseudo-politics as fun? Don't shit where you eat, boys.

Some of us are trying, but the identitarian came to shit the bed, and I can't find how to mute him.

Quote from: tenbones on August 03, 2021, 12:11:11 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 03, 2021, 12:09:14 PM
IMHO there shouldn't be any sacred cows.

In spirit I agree. But we both have been around long enough to know those fuckers are grazing on our fertile soil as we speak. They must be slain and offered back up to to the Gaming Gods with a new Covenant that we can do better!

In the spirit of sacrificing those sacred cows in the altars of Cool & Good Gaming:

In the core rules, Which races, classes, spells, skills, feats would you leave in?

Since it's aiming to being compatible with 5e I would go for a shorter list on everything and instead of all that better play examples, better explanations thinking not everyone has any clue as to how to GM/Play.

Now, should it have as many classes as 5e? Or a much shorter list with paths?

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 03, 2021, 04:39:07 PM
Strength was a gimme for me just because its such a quantifiable real thing.

That sounds convenient to me.

Static strength is easy to quantify; functional strength -- the kind useful for fighting enemies, for example -- is notoriously difficult or impossible to quantify.

For example, does "Strength" in your game benefit Climbing? Because there is an inverse relationship between being a strong powerlifter and a good climber.

Ditto for "fighting". Notice how champion fighters are lean, while champion weightlifters are thick. Guys that can press 300lbs get mauled in the ring.

Now I'm not saying your ability scores aren't good: if they follow from the setting and the player-character experience you're trying to create, then they're fine. But I wouldn't go so far as to claim "strength is quantifiable, therefore it's a good ability score for my game."

...

Quote from: Ocule on August 03, 2021, 03:58:45 PM
I can't really find a good way to make a mechanical difference between male and female. Every time I try the male human ends up being objectively just better at everything necessary for adventuring. I can make an argument for a higher charisma cap for females, due to the tendencies of being much more social thus able to persuade people and attract more followers but even that it is hard to accurately represent through just attributes the various circumstances that go into being a leader. Unless the setting has certain gender restricted classes or roles....

But yeah, if i did ever implement something like that i'd give a cap to strength for females and maybe cap male charisma? Right now I just kind of roll with the idea that players are abnormal and just represent that in the world. It's rare for me to make a female town guard or soldier unless it's a clear exception, and not the norm.

Monkey with the low end of the scale, not the high.  I'll use old fashioned D&D, roll 3d6 in order as an example, but you can use the idea for almost any system with a random or semi-random component, and even arrays or point buy with a little work:  Roll stats as normal.  If male, if your Str is under 9, +1 to it.  Otherwise, get +1 to your lowest ability.  If female, if your Dex is under 9, +1 to it. Otherwise, get +1 to your lowest ability.  There.  It will be very rare for the differences to touch adventurers to the extent of influencing class choices.  But your general population will be slightly more realistic.  Move the threshold around or otherwise complicate to taste.

Careful, RL empirical data gets you on MarxyBugle's naughty list!

It seems sensible to grant east Asians +2 math for Harry Potter style campaigns.

Quote from: strcondex18cha3 on August 03, 2021, 03:44:00 PMOf course there are. There's a diving adapted race (I forgot the name) which would be a toal game changer in an aquatic setting.

The Bajau? Thousands of years of natural selection have increased the size of their spleens allowing them to dive for longer without needing to come up for breath.

https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/science-and-technology/2018/04/sea-nomads-are-first-known-humans-genetically-adapted-diving

Some idea detritus

Strength is how much you can lift

Grip is how well you can hold on

Power is how hard you can hit or struggle when gripped.

Reaction is your speed of identifying a need for and launching a task rapidly by muscle memory. Initiative & dodge

Accuracy is your hand eye coordination and fast processing of adjustments

Steadiness is how still you can be, do your hands shake, etc.

Agility is your ability to balance while being shifted

Grace is your ability by training to use agility and steadiness together to do complex acrobatics or complex things like weaving a rope quickly.

Flexibility is your ability to change shape to fit through crevices and roll with punches.

Endurance is how long you can move violently without losing your wind

Forbearance is how long you can hold a single pose or commit to a grip or avoid being  impaired by an injury and is related to suppressing fear and building physical discipline

Condition is your healing rate + resistance to infections or poison and ability to shrug off some injuries because you a tough boy.

Perception is your ability to use your senses to detect and interpret things you hear see smell taste and touch or psychically link to or whatever.

Accuity is your ability to link clues together into a narrative and understand them, Great for spotting problems with illusions or realizing someone is mistaken or lying. based in analysis and deduction.

Cleverness is your ability to intuit solutions to problems from perhaps laterally connected facts or clues. This is what lets you build and disarm traps or make things out of other things. good for designing experiments and innovations.

Concentration is your ability to resist distraction and protect your mind from psychic assault or thought burglary. It also helps you keep watch and avoid becoming bored and can protect against being sleepy.

Sagacity is the ease with which you can recall things accurately and can be expanded though training in mnemonic techniques.

Sensibility is one's grounding in reality that makes one reluctant to buy into unlikely conclusions. It also includes self knowledge that contributes to prudence and patience. Similar to but more instinctual than discipline.

Affability is how easily you relate to others and how easily they relate to you. Amounts mostly to openness or dedication to social protocols and courtesy and sensitivity to how others perceive you and consideration for what you presume they want of you.

Allure is how attractive you are at a distance, your features, posture, can be affected by grace or other physical attributes and how well you dress or how competent you seem.

Presence is how easy it is for you to be noticed and stand out from the background or a crowd. Presence can be temporarily modified with acting or disguise or even having someone else put on a distraction or doing something like blowing a horn.

Well there is a pile of...stuff.