Quote from: thedungeondelver;913602On a certain website the fit-pitching and tearing of collars, throwing of ashes on head amidst foot-stomping and cries of 4TH EDITION WAS OBJECTIVELY THE BEST D&D EVER! when 5e was announced and some of its nuances and rule-changes leaked, I bet they're taking this information quite well, which is fine because fuck all of them.

Quote from: CRKrueger;913711I don't know why people think Coy is fucking Clever instead of Annoying As Fuck.

One is the site that hates 5e and loves 4e - RPG.NET
One is the site that hates 5e and loves 3e - THE GAMING DEN

Wow, that wasn't even hard to type.

Thanks! Good to know these things. Saves me time later on.

Quote from: estar;913717Man the hate for 5e on that site. It so over the top that makes me wonder if people doing weird form of roleplaying.

That's my reason for coy...that level of hate can lead into real world violence.

No that's not the site I was referring to, although it does feature Prof. Cirno, Ettin and Halloween Jack.

Anyway, yes, 5e is nifty and while it will never, ever replace 1e or original D&D at my table, I don't mind playing it and I wouldn't mind running it, reading the Dungeon Masters Guide I didn't feel like I was being presented with a list of demands from players who would hold my game hostage until I submitted (3e, 3.5 and 4e), and reading the Players Handbook I didn't feel like I was looking at Advanced Diablo where for each class there is exactly and only precisely one single build to make an Optimal Character and anything else leaves you with a completely broken "build" that cannot possibly succeed just because you chose the "wrong" feats or skills (4e and 3e).

Quote from: thedungeondelver;913792and reading the Players Handbook I didn't feel like I was looking at Advanced Diablo where for each class there is exactly and only precisely one single build to make an Optimal Character and anything else leaves you with a completely broken "build" that cannot possibly succeed just because you chose the "wrong" feats or skills (4e and 5e).

er... 5e's feats are optional, very few, and not used like 3-4es feats, and 5es skills are also very few and more broad purpose and not usually vital to most endeavors since you can still try most unskilled.

Quote from: Omega;913802er... 5e's feats are optional, very few, and not used like 3-4es feats, and 5es skills are also very few and more broad purpose and not usually vital to most endeavors since you can still try most unskilled.

DAMMIT, THAT WAS A TYPO!

I meant 3e and 4e!

Quote from: Doom;913791That's my reason for coy...that level of hate can lead into real world violence.

How true. That's what we're not being told about the Milwaukee riots - it actually started as a Twitter war between Pathfinder and 5e fans.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;913792No that's not the site I was referring to, although it does feature Prof. Cirno, Ettin and Halloween Jack.

Dude, there are people who don't know these things...educate.

He means the other site that loves 4e and hates 5e, Something Awful (in fact they love 4e and hate 5e even more than purple does).

Quote from: kosmos1214;913597As a Pokemon fan i rather pride my self of knowing about little tidbits about Pokemon and i have honestly never heard of it before.

This game is a mystery to me as well. It was pretty much under the radar of the whole fandom because it was a Parker-distributed, mass market item "hidden" among other products. It seems there was only one "wave" of product, and the promised sets 2+ never materialised.
I don't remember how hard it was to order for non-mass market stores, like the typical FLGS. I only remember that I did get it for the game store I was operating back then.

Relevant to this thread is that I remember a quote by an industry insider (or chronist) claiming that the preorders of the Pokemon jr. Adventure Game alone "blew the (then-current?) numbers of D&D out of the water, making it (one of?) the most successful RPGs ever".

Which would be no surprise for me, because it was a small, card game-box that grand parents must have bought in heaps. It didn't look like an RPG at all.

But I don't think it was actually played a lot as an RPG. I believe that kids used the cards to stage simple Pokemon duels, lacking parents willing to GM for them.

Quote from: CRKrueger;913711One is the site that hates 5e and loves 4e - RPG.NET

Weird, you can't tell this by visiting.

Quote from: hexgrid;914025Weird, you can't tell this by visiting.

It seems like the moderators have clamped down a bit on the "5e teh suxxors!!" stuff since the official release. I think they might have become worried about the site getting a reputation as "The place where people sit around and grumble about how much they hate D&D".

Quote from: hexgrid;914025Weird, you can't tell this by visiting.

Presumably you weren't visiting a couple years ago. The vitriol aimed at WotC and Next/5E was pretty incredible. During the Next playtest, when the nerdfury at that site over the cancellation of 4E was volcanic, the mods even came out and said 5E didn't have any protection from edition-warring because it wasn't officially published yet. Which shows you where the sympathies of the mod-clique at that site lay.

Quote from: Dimitrios;914045It seems like the moderators have clamped down a bit on the "5e teh suxxors!!" stuff since the official release. I think they might have become worried about the site getting a reputation as "The place where people sit around and grumble about how much they hate D&D".

Pretty much. The nerdfury against 5E got so bad that a lot of posters who were interested in 5E came out and said they would be moving on from RPGnet unless the mods stopped being hypocrites. That must have alarmed someone.

Quote from: Haffrung;914054That must have alarmed someone.

I bet. Whomever gets the money for their advertising would be my first guess.

Quote from: CRKrueger;912890There's no way lifetime 5e sales beat Pathfinder.  Maybe just over the last two year window.

We have this data, roughly

Quote from: Zardnaar;6964658If its true out selling the 3.0 PHB is the impressive one. and 3.5 sales were relatively rubbish compared to 3.0 and even 2E. Using the same metrics and guesstimates used on 4E/Pathfinder combined with other sim ilar things like size of RPG market, Amazon rankings etc 5E has been a massive hit.

RPG market 2013 13 million of which Paizo had more than $10 million.
RPG Market now 35 million

We also knew how many core books Paizo sold for PFRPG and the a size of the RPG market at that time (2014). We also know how many 3E and 2E books were sold and some ball park figures for 3.5 and 4E. 3.0 outsold 3.5 by a 2 or 3 to one ratio, 3.5 likely outsold 4E by around 2-1. 3.5 and 4E were the worst selling versions of D&D since OD&D though. OD&D was new though and predated D&D becoming big. The big sellers were.

1E PHB 1.5 million
BECMI Red Box (more than 1E PHB?) 1 million + no one really knows (TSR records were bad)
2E PHB. (750k)
3.0 PHB (500-750k) Accounts vary
3.5 (250-350k)
Pathfinder 250k (circa 2014)
4E mostly like around 100k+DDI.

Sources Erik Mona, Dancey

 So out selling 3.5/4E is not hard in the grand scheme of things in D&D. If Mearls is accurate (with other data hinting heavily he might not be telling porkies) 5E is now the new silver age of D&D in terms of sales beating 3.0 in terms of PHB sales. Its also selling at a rate faster than the 1E books only the BECMI red box set can compete and the 1E PHB had a shelf life of 12 years to get those lifetime sales.

Note 3.0 and 3.5 combined outsold 2E but 2E likely outsold each one individually. 3.0 was heavily front loaded with most sales in the 1st year hence 3.5 coming out so fast as sales dropped off a cliff after the 1st year. 5E might be the 1st edition since 1E to grow the D&D player base. 2E sold less than 1E, 3.0 sold fast but overall likely sold less than 2E (3 years vs 11 though), 3.5 sold less than 3.0, 4E sold less than 3.5.

So yes, 5e PHB outsold Pathfinder core book, given it outsold 3e which itself well outsold Pathfinder core book as of 2014.  Unless you think the last two years (which have not been particularly good years for Pathfinder core book sales, though they have been fine for overall Pathfinder book sales) suddenly surpassed to double or more the prior total sales, then yes 5e PHB has indeed outsold Pathfinder core book sales.

Now as for total book sales, I am fairly sure Pathfinder total book sales surpass 5e total book sales.  The sheer quantity of books Pathfinder has put out should secure that number for years to come.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;913945This game is a mystery to me as well. It was pretty much under the radar of the whole fandom because it was a Parker-distributed, mass market item "hidden" among other products. It seems there was only one "wave" of product, and the promised sets 2+ never materialised.
I don't remember how hard it was to order for non-mass market stores, like the typical FLGS. I only remember that I did get it for the game store I was operating back then.


Relevant to this thread is that I remember a quote by an industry insider (or chronist) claiming that the preorders of the Pokemon jr. Adventure Game alone "blew the (then-current?) numbers of D&D out of the water, making it (one of?) the most successful RPGs ever".

Which would be no surprise for me, because it was a small, card game-box that grand parents must have bought in heaps. It didn't look like an RPG at all.

But I don't think it was actually played a lot as an RPG. I believe that kids used the cards to stage simple Pokemon duels, lacking parents willing to GM for them.

Yes i find it likely that there where loads of copy bought by that parent had no idea it was an rpg.
I also would bet x number also just used to play an rpg them selves like some used the board game.

Quote from: Haffrung;914054Presumably you weren't visiting a couple years ago. The vitriol aimed at WotC and Next/5E was pretty incredible. During the Next playtest, when the nerdfury at that site over the cancellation of 4E was volcanic, the mods even came out and said 5E didn't have any protection from edition-warring because it wasn't officially published yet. Which shows you where the sympathies of the mod-clique at that site lay.

  I think part of it was also that RPGNet was one of the only places online that you could have positive discussion of 4E, so when WotC started pretty clearly throwing it under the bus, you saw a similar reaction to the one that many of the 3E-friendly places had to 4E's marketing.