I swear.  Sometimes discussions like these make me feel like there are people out there who can't figure things out for themselves, but need any potential issues spelled out for them in advance.

Whatever happened to hitting a roadblock (that either might not have a rule for, or even contradicts a rule), and just coming up with a solution at your table?

Do people really need an explicit instruction that says, "your PC can die as an adventurer in this game."?  or "even though this creature is CR2, it can still be dangerous to a higher level PC so don't follow the CR RAW guidelines for this one"?   What next, do we need to have warning lables that say don't eat the PHB?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;787275What next, do we need to have warning lables that say don't eat the PHB?

By Juiblex's chunkier ichor, could you have posted this like 30 seconds sooner?!

Quote from: Sacrosanct;787275I swear.  Sometimes discussions like these make me feel like there are people out there who can't figure things out for themselves, but need any potential issues spelled out for them in advance.

Whatever happened to hitting a roadblock (that either might not have a rule for, or even contradicts a rule), and just coming up with a solution at your table?

Do people really need an explicit instruction that says, "your PC can die as an adventurer in this game."?  or "even though this creature is CR2, it can still be dangerous to a higher level PC so don't follow the CR RAW guidelines for this one"?   What next, do we need to have warning lables that say don't eat the PHB?

LOL!!!   Gamers these days make me think of this entertaining quote:

 I've *seen* the future, you know what it is. It's made by a 47 year-old virgin in gray pajamas soaking in a bubble bath, drinking a broccoli milkshake and thinking "I'm an Oscar-Meyer Wiener".

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;787273I don't know that I'd say they're 'more dangerous' so much as that their danger is more or less level-independent, due to bounded accuracy, lack of improvement for non-proficient PCs, and the way they ignore HP. That's why I wondered if some sort of flag independent of CR might be a good idea for creatures like this.

  But guidance for new DMs on 'here's what you can expect if you throw this creature up against a party' is apparently tyrannical and unfun. We must make the game as difficult to understand and run as possible! Only the Elite can play True D&D! We must cull the herd! Exterminate the unfit! EXTERMINATE!

 

Guidance for new DMs is a great and wonderful thing, but if that means having a CR system that tolerates no deviations or exceptions as gamerGoyf seems to be implying, well that's just unrealistic.   Similarly, expecting any canned system to "level the playing field" between new DMs and experienced DMs is also unrealistic.

New DMs and players can play "True D&D" all day long, and as they play they'll become less new.  Kids want to be adults, and adults want to be kids again, but somehow the experience of growing up is something to avoid?  *shrug*

Quote from: Natty Bodak;787294Guidance for new DMs is a great and wonderful thing, but if that means having a CR system that tolerates no deviations or exceptions as gamerGoyf seems to be implying, well that's just unrealistic.

Having low CR monsters with save or lose/die effects that don't break the system is completely realistic. It's already real. No one complains about the 3e Cockatrice breaking CR because they live in a universe where saves scale with level. This is 100% a bounded accuracy issue.

Quote from: gamerGoyf;787340Having low CR monsters with save or lose/die effects that don't break the system is completely realistic. It's already real. No one complains about the 3e Cockatrice breaking CR because they live in a universe where saves scale with level. This is 100% a bounded accuracy issue.

I don't see how it's an issue at all, much less an issue with bounded accuracy. At best(worst?) it seems like an issue about the expectations of universal applicability and consistency of CR ratings.

Quote from: LibraryLass;787073I admit I'd totally play a Harvest Moon/Rune Factory/Animal Crossing kind of game about the quaint, ordinary lives of quirky villagers. But not when I'm trying to play D&D.

My players are clamoring for a side story party in my D&D campaign about milkmaids, saloon girls, and bath maidens seeking to marry well. Even rolled up their stats already. Haven't even set up a date & time and they are already excited to play.

Funny what happens when you offer release to Organized Players from The Rules; its like the floodgates open.

A quest to the Dread Caves of Comfort might actually be a useful idea... Fabled Druidic Luxury Spa out in the wilderness, has potential.

Quote from: Opaopajr;787365My players are clamoring for a side story party in my D&D campaign about milkmaids, saloon girls, and bath maidens seeking to marry well. Even rolled up their stats already. Haven't even set up a date & time and they are already excited to play.

Funny what happens when you offer release to Organized Players from The Rules; its like the floodgates open.

A quest to the Dread Caves of Comfort might actually be a useful idea... Fabled Druidic Luxury Spa out in the wilderness, has potential.

The idea of a ruined spa as a dungeon seems really cool to me and I don't even play D and D or get into Dungeon Crawl style play. I guess its the History Channel program on Roman bathhouses that I recently watched. Surprisingly complex places.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;787273But guidance for new DMs on 'here's what you can expect if you throw this creature up against a party' is apparently tyrannical and unfun. We must make the game as difficult to understand and run as possible! Only the Elite can play True D&D! We must cull the herd! Exterminate the unfit! EXTERMINATE!

 

Quote from: Natty Bodak;787294Guidance for new DMs is a great and wonderful thing, but if that means having a CR system that tolerates no deviations or exceptions as gamerGoyf seems to be implying, well that's just unrealistic.

As it happens, there is guidance for new DMs about how the CR system shouldn't be taken as gospel and about how the special abilities of monsters needs to be taken into account...

Quote from: DM's Basic Rules, p56Challenge Rating

Much of the advice in this section focuses on the XP values of monsters and encounters, as opposed to their challenge rating. Challenge rating is only a guidepost that indicates at what level that monster becomes an appropriate challenge. When putting together an encounter or adventure, especially at lower levels, exercise caution when using monsters whose challenge rating is higher than the party's level. Such a creature might deal enough damage with a single action to overwhelm PCs of a lower level. Even though an ogre has a challenge rating of 2, for example, it can kill a 1st-level wizard or sorcerer outright with a single blow.

Often these monsters have special traits or features that might be difficult or impossible for characters of a lower level to deal with. For example, a rakshasa has a challenge rating of 13 and is immune to spells of 6th level and lower. Facing off against one before reaching 13th level—and, thus, gaining access to 7th-level spells—means that spellcasters won't be able to affect the rakshasa directly, putting the party at a serious disadvantage. Even though the XP value of a fight against a lone rakshasa is well within the range of a medium or hard challenge for a party of six 10th-level PCs, such an encounter would be significantly tougher for them than XP alone would suggest.

Quote from: Larsdangly;787272Obviously everyone remains as free as they ever were to ignore a concept like CR as something that guides the design of dungeons and NPC's.

The Hoard of the Dragon Queen module's first few chapters are like that. Its deliberately seeded with encounters well outside the PCs range to encourage thinking outside the tiny little hack-n-slash box. Unfortunately. Due to quirks in the production process... some encounters ended up becoming a liiiitle meaner than even they intended.

Despite 5E's claim to be more new player friendly. Several elements do require a DM more skilled to actually say when this works and when that doesnt. Or at least a new DM able to learn.

Common sense and DM knowledge of the groups characters  will indicate when throwing 6 of these things at the party is a good idea, and when it is very much not. Though I love the fact these horrors are a threat even to high level characters.

Quote from: Nexus;787366The idea of a ruined spa as a dungeon seems really cool to me and I don't even play D and D or get into Dungeon Crawl style play. I guess its the History Channel program on Roman bathhouses that I recently watched. Surprisingly complex places.

"Beat with the Ugly Stick" was a module that came with one of my RPGA issues way back. It was set in the equivalent of a spa/beauty resort.

Quote from: Spinachcat;787195Diapers & Dragons playstyle.

Kudos :hatsoff:

Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;787390As it happens, there is guidance for new DMs about how the CR system shouldn't be taken as gospel and about how the special abilities of monsters needs to be taken into account...

    Well, that reads to me more like "you need to take both CR and XP value into account", but my quoted comments had more to do with the zeitgeist around here than with the game itself. Regarding CR and the intellect devourer, the primary points I'd make are:
 
   1. Given that you need greater restoration to recover from the Intelligence wipe, the CR may be a bit lowballed.

   2. The special attacks are very swingy and, outside of wizards, not the kind of thing PCs are likely to get better at avoiding with level. That may be something that the CR/XP system isn't set up to handle. Hopefully the full DMG will include some guidance on all or nothing powers (both offensive and defensive).

There is also nothing wrong with some things just being kind of scary regardless of level or other meta-game concepts.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;787449There is also nothing wrong with some things just being kind of scary regardless of level or other meta-game concepts.

Truth.  PC's should not think they can go wherever, and do whatever, and never have to worry about facing an encounter that would destroy them.