Quote from: Armchair Gamer;787047A legitimate mode of play. The questions I'd have are:

  1. Does 5E warn players about this going in? That is, is it clear that a CR 2 is something that has a realistic chance of taking out a 2nd-level PC if the odds go against it? From what's present in the Basic rules, I'd suggest that the ID might be undervalued, and bounded accuracy and the potential for wide gaps between proficient and non-proficient saves mean that creatures with save or die abilities that bypass the HP system are going to be very swingy. Something like BECMI's star ratings might have been a good idea to flag monsters with unpredictable abilities like this.
  2. Does the rest of the system support this? Better than 3E or 4E, but not quite as well as Basic. Probably in the same range of 'quick and easy' character generation as AD&D, maybe a step above it.
  3. Is this what new players want, and will they be energized or frustrated by high-swing monsters like this, presented with minimal guidance? I have no idea; for WotC's sake, I hope they know what they're doing.

1) Does adventuring in any way seem like the safe route to fame & fortune?  What is it about going into dangerous places full of monsters that would give the impression that injury and death are rare events?

2) I generated a character in 8 minutes. Not too bad at all.

3) Players who prefer less dangerous adventures should speak up or perhaps have their character retire at first level and become shopkeepers.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;7870533) Players who prefer less dangerous adventures should speak up or perhaps have their character retire at first level and become shopkeepers.

I admit I'd totally play a Harvest Moon/Rune Factory/Animal Crossing kind of game about the quaint, ordinary lives of quirky villagers. But not when I'm trying to play D&D.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;786970Well, maybe that it not risk blowing up a campaign without warning when used ... but then, D&D isn't a game for new and inexperienced players, is it?

It has a relatively small chance of taking out a single PC (effectively requiring two Saves to be failed). That PC isn't permanently taken out and can be restored.

I am not sure how that is blowing up a campaign. I would expect that there is more danger of losing a PC permanently through HP loss in most fights.

Quote from: Larsdangly;786974An encounter with a weird and potentially life threatening monster is not game wrecking. It is the game.

Truth has a certain ring to it.

And thus the grizzled veterans of the Company of the Rusty Blade, armed with sword and spell, descended far beneath the earth, into the Dread Caves of Comfort, where they had a delightful noon tea, followed by pedicures and a lovely afternoon nap, except for mighty Sir Boris, who ventured off alone into the Temple of Fluffy Kittens and Licky Puppies and was never heard from again until almost half an hour past dinnertime.

Quote from: Raven;787189And thus the grizzled veterans of the Company of the Rusty Blade, armed with sword and spell, descended far beneath the earth, into the Dread Caves of Comfort, where they had a delightful noon tea, followed by pedicures and a lovely afternoon nap, except for mighty Sir Boris, who ventured off alone into the Temple of Fluffy Kittens and Licky Puppies and was never heard from again until almost half an hour past dinnertime.

I believe this is called D&D Expeditions or D&D Encounters.

I was roped into a Pathfinder event last year because they needed an extra player to make the table "legal" and there were 2 players who complained that their PCs took any damage during the entire adventure. Not died, not downed, just took HP loss.

Apparently, that's a thing with what's left of the hobby.

5e was built for the Diapers & Dragons playstyle so I am not surprised the Intellect Devourer would cause consternation. It does not fit the tone of the rest of the game we have seen so far.

Quote from: LibraryLass;787073I admit I'd totally play a Harvest Moon/Rune Factory/Animal Crossing kind of game about the quaint, ordinary lives of quirky villagers. But not when I'm trying to play D&D.

Agricola?

Quote from: Omega;787211Agricola?

Yeah, but more of an RPG.

Quote from: LibraryLass;787218Yeah, but more of an RPG.

Ryuutama (http://kotohi.com/ryuutama/)?

Quote from: Skywalker;787220Ryuutama (http://kotohi.com/ryuutama/)?

Hm. Interesting. Yes, very much like that, but more based around a central location than a journey.

(Golden Sky Stories also seems to appeal to this interest... clearly Japanese gamers must have a similar hankering.)

Well nice to see that you guys haven't lost your sneering contempt for people who play differently ;3

Anyhoo the issue at hand seems is sort of clouded by the fact that 4rries are involved in the conversation. The fact that an Intellect Devourer can potentially down a PC in one round is awesome and if I was less informed or more naive I'd see that as an omen that the days of padded sumo are finally over.  Sadly this is not the case this: see also 5e Pit Fiend -_-

The problem with the ID is that they are seriously more dangerous as you go up in levels. Anyone who is not prioritizing INT will not only be vulnerable to their attack at level 2, they will remain exactly as vulnerable for their entire adventuring career. You simply can not have that in a CR system because as you ascend through levels you are expected to fight more Intellect Devourers in less favorable circumstances -_-

Quote from: gamerGoyf;787255Well nice to see that you guys haven't lost your sneering contempt for people who play differently ;3

Anyhoo the issue at hand seems is sort of clouded by the fact that 4rries are involved in the conversation. The fact that an Intellect Devourer can potentially down a PC in one round is awesome and if I was less informed or more naive I'd see that as an omen that the days of padded sumo are finally over.  Sadly this is not the case this: see also 5e Pit Fiend -_-

The problem with the ID is that they are seriously more dangerous as you go up in levels. Anyone who is not prioritizing INT will not only be vulnerable to their attack at level 2, they will remain exactly as vulnerable for their entire adventuring career. You simply can not have that in a CR system because as you ascend through levels you are expected to fight more Intellect Devourers in less favorable circumstances -_-

If only someone would come along and free DM's from the tyranny of CR rules of thumb. I dream that one day we may all be free.

Quote from: gamerGoyf;787255You simply can not have that in a CR system because as you ascend through levels you are expected to fight more Intellect Devourers in less favorable circumstances -_-

I was not aware of that!  I had no idea that per RAW, my campaign had to include X amount of intellect devourers encountered in Y conditions.


The formula to calculate that must be in the unreleased DMG somewhere. :rolleyes:

Obviously everyone remains as free as they ever were to ignore a concept like CR as something that guides the design of dungeons and NPC's. The only trouble is, if you prefer an old-school, sandbox approach in which the setting is populated independent of the levels of the adventurers who will show up at your table, you feel marginalized by the body of published adventures. The D&D (and D&D-like) part of the hobby is strongly dominated by adventure path style publications and designed, or balanced, encounters. I find it all cloying, patronizing and dull. No one is forcing me to buy these things, but it sucks to watch a hobby that used to have so many great support products migrate this direction.

Quote from: gamerGoyf;787255The problem with the ID is that they are seriously more dangerous as you go up in levels. Anyone who is not prioritizing INT will not only be vulnerable to their attack at level 2, they will remain exactly as vulnerable for their entire adventuring career.

  I don't know that I'd say they're 'more dangerous' so much as that their danger is more or less level-independent, due to bounded accuracy, lack of improvement for non-proficient PCs, and the way they ignore HP. That's why I wondered if some sort of flag independent of CR might be a good idea for creatures like this.

  But guidance for new DMs on 'here's what you can expect if you throw this creature up against a party' is apparently tyrannical and unfun. We must make the game as difficult to understand and run as possible! Only the Elite can play True D&D! We must cull the herd! Exterminate the unfit! EXTERMINATE!