One of my friends wouldn't allow gnomes in his D&D campaigns.
He said they were gay.
I guess he was right.

Quote from: jhkim;1103485Comparing Haffrung and tenbones on this - I'm more along the lines of Haffrung's not caring.

I'd prefer a pair of gay NPCs to be two NPCs that just happen to be gay, rather than it being some sort of important campaign setup. I don't see why it should have to matter, any more than how government works in the Village of Hommlet.

So what is the difference? Seriously, if romantic relations are even brought up - is it not as arbitrary as wondering how government works in Hommlet?

I'll go one further - in normal play at my table, it's probably at least orders of magnitude more likely my PC's will become involved in some way/shape/form of *having* to interact with whatever passes for government/authority while traveling around in the Village of Hommlet as they are to pry into the sexual proclivities of *any* inhabitants of the same village.

Many many orders of magnitude.

Much less the specific sexual preferences of two particular gnome males that might happen to be co-rulers.

This is not to say that *I* as a GM might know that some NPC's are in fact, homosexual/heterosexual, or drop clues that may/may not be salient (two individuals co-habitating unmarried to anyone of the opposite sex) or whatever.

But for the purposes of deciding what is important for an adventure vs. a campaign - yes, those details should exist if they matter in substance to the conceits of the location setting. Why? This allows for a GM to have the flexibility to do whatever they want *otherwise* assuming they want to run things as generally described.

Otherwise it's a toss-off simply by dint of numbers and what people consider normal. And by normal - I mean BY THE NUMBERS. Hetero people aren't running around looking for homosexuals or indulging in the homosexual sub-culture without intent for the obvious reason: they're a radically smaller community. If we're assuming it's no different in nature, in real life, than it would be in a fantasy setting - and there is zero reason to believe otherwise unless we're speaking with unspecified claims, which I am not making...

How much more rare would it be to have two gay gnome kings... gnomes are *already* very rare in the Realms. They're *literally* called "The Forgotten Folk" for a reason - mainly because they choose to be reclusive, but it's pretty clear their communities are tiny.

So yeah - the odds of two gay male gnomes being kings... which ISN'T EVEN A THING in the Forgotten Realms with a couple of SUPER-RARE exceptions - notably Lantan, which is more of a hierarchical academic ruling class (Engineers!).

Yeah - this whole thing is silly and pandering specifically as it pertains to the Forgotten Realms. But let's be intellectually honest... It would be equally silly anywhere else *without* it being cooked into the setting for an in-game reason. Otherwise we could pretend all outliers are equal - maybe they're Asmodeus worshippers too!

Would people be upset if a tribe of marauding Orcs from the High Moors decided they enjoyed wearing human female dresses and makeup as "war paint"? Would that be offensive to anyone?

What if they captured male-elves and took them as their mates-by-conquest forcibly? But only because they couldn't tell the difference between male and female elves.

Would that be objectionable? (this has happened in video games- oddly no one seemed to freak out about it because of its silliness)

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1103481An evening of rolling dice, you'll expect 2 in 20 rolls to be a crit or a fumble. Say you only make one die roll that whole evening, you roll a crit or fumble, that would be strange.

Of the dozens and dozens of NPCs in the adventure (over 20), only two seem to be gay.

QuoteDepends on the context. Sometimes populations cluster by ethnicity. I'd find a Jew strange and unusual living in a primarily chinese neighborhood. Or vice versa.

As Jews more frequently marry people of Asian descent than you find in many other ethnic groups, you should not find that unusual at all. In fact it's a long running joke among Jews. There is even a research book on the topic called JewAsian.

Quote from: jhkim;1103485Comparing Haffrung and tenbones on this - I'm more along the lines of Haffrung's not caring.

I'd prefer a pair of gay NPCs to be two NPCs that just happen to be gay, rather than it being some sort of important campaign setup. I don't see why it should have to matter, any more than how government works in the Village of Hommlet.

That is the thing. See my mini overview a few pages back that probably got lost in the damn political debate derail.

These two gnomes being married and male has ZERO impact. It is meaningless in the context of the locale or the characters really. They could be both female, or both hermaprodites or both human or both storm giants and it would be the exact same. Nothing. You can literally swap these two characters around any which way and the adventure and the locale is for all intents and purposes, exactly the same.

And it is exactly the same situation with that "daughter" in Curse of Strahd.

And I'd like to think that this is because the intent was to leave DMs room to make of it what they will. Or change things to suit their gaming group.

Quote from: tenbones;1103503Yeah - this whole thing is silly and pandering specifically as it pertains to the Forgotten Realms. But let's be intellectually honest... It would be equally silly anywhere else *without* it being cooked into the setting for an in-game reason. Otherwise we could pretend all outliers are equal - maybe they're Asmodeus worshippers too!

um... you obviously missed that part where Elminster spent some time transformed into a girl and nearly having a romantic relationship with a guy. Yeah. That happened.

Quote from: tenbones;1103506Would people be upset if a tribe of marauding Orcs from the High Moors decided they enjoyed wearing human female dresses and makeup as "war paint"? Would that be offensive to anyone?

What if they captured male-elves and took them as their mates-by-conquest forcibly? But only because they couldn't tell the difference between male and female elves.

Would that be objectionable? (this has happened in video games- oddly no one seemed to freak out about it because of its silliness)

Its the Forgotten Realms. Odds are it HAS happened. And if not there then over on Mystara because their orcs are a liiiiitle weird sometimes.

As for people freaking out here... where? We have some off topic political freaking out. But mostly its been pretty mild on the subject of the gnomes and instead more like commentary on wether or not such is appropriate or not for a setting and discussion on how to approach it, or improve the entry.

Which may have been the intent as noted prior.

Quote from: Omega;1103551Its the Forgotten Realms. Odds are it HAS happened. And if not there then over on Mystara because their orcs are a liiiiitle weird sometimes.

As for people freaking out here... where? We have some off topic political freaking out. But mostly its been pretty mild on the subject of the gnomes and instead more like commentary on wether or not such is appropriate or not for a setting and discussion on how to approach it, or improve the entry.

Which may have been the intent as noted prior.

Well you know... not "freAAAAAAKKKK out!-freak out"... just go into mild online tizzy.

Quote from: Omega;1103550um... you obviously missed that part where Elminster spent some time transformed into a girl and nearly having a romantic relationship with a guy. Yeah. That happened.

Well... LOL yes, I missed it. But it's Elminster. Dude is a total freak. He's done it with everyone/everything. That doesn't shock me in the slightest.

Quote from: tenbones;1103571Well... LOL yes, I missed it. But it's Elminster. Dude is a total freak. He's done it with everyone/everything. That doesn't shock me in the slightest.

Elminster is Greenwood's self-insert character. This is why the FR is referred to as Ed Greenwood's Magical Realm.

Quote from: Mistwell;1103515Of the dozens and dozens of NPCs in the adventure (over 20), only two seem to be gay.

The gnome co-regents, notable NPCs, with an unusual monarchy system stacked on top almost as if to accomodate their sexual orientation.

QuoteAs Jews more frequently marry people of Asian descent than you find in many other ethnic groups, you should not find that unusual at all. In fact it's a long running joke among Jews. There is even a research book on the topic called JewAsian.

Specifically Chinese asians?

Quote from: Mistwell;1103515Of the dozens and dozens of NPCs in the adventure (over 20), only two seem to be gay.

How many of those 20 "seem" to be heterosexual? And how many make no mention of or reference to their sexuality? It seems to me that the distribution of the NPCs as we imagine it is less relevant to the points of discussion here than is the distribution ratio of mentions.

Just because 2 people are mentioned as being gay doesn't mean the other 18 are automatically straight. It's also possibly interesting that 2/20 is actually 10%, not 5%, where even 5% is over-representative of modern society's 3.5% (I can't speak to Gnome society).

It doesn't surprise me that 12-year-olds think homosexuality is just as "normal" as heterosexuality, since it's nearly as common in the media they consume. I haven't watched the final episode of Dark Crystal yet (not spoilers please!), but through the first nine episodes I recall seeing only 1 couple, and of course they are gay. For those not too good at math, that's 100% of the relationships in the show. It's also worth noting that neither the couple's sexuality nor even their existence plays any part in advancing the story -- the mention is entirely extraneous to the narrative.

To me, over-representation implies either a delusion or an agenda.

On the plus side, their wedding was fabulous!

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1103624The gnome co-regents, notable NPCs, with an unusual monarchy system stacked on top almost as if to accomodate their sexual orientation.

And if it had been the guards who help you access the dungeon where one King is imprisoned instead, you'd be claiming that's the notable NPC there almost as if it's to accommodate their sexual orientation. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Why is this a deal?

QuoteSpecifically Chinese asians?

Typically it's Chinese and Japanese, yes. There is actually a meaningful Jewish population in China, who went there during and just after WW2.

Quote from: Zalman;1103632How many of those 20 "seem" to be heterosexual? And how many make no mention of or reference to their sexuality? It seems to me that the distribution of the NPCs as we imagine it is less relevant to the points of discussion here than is the distribution ratio of mentions.

Just because 2 people are mentioned as being gay doesn't mean the other 18 are automatically straight. It's also possibly interesting that 2/20 is actually 10%, not 5%, where even 5% is over-representative of modern society's 3.5% (I can't speak to Gnome society).]

First of all, I don't agree with the logic of quota arguments. Characters in fantasy modules don't have to conform to their proportions in modern U.S. society. That applies both to those who argue for more representation or for less representation.

Second, even if you want to measure representation - it's one couple in one module. If one couple is 10% and thus over-representative within the NPCs of one module, then it's a problem of low statistics. Looking in just that single module, the only possibilities are 0% (under-represented) or 10% (over-represented).  You would have to look across multiple modules to see what the representation is in finer detail.