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Author Topic: 5E Dragonlance is out in the wild now.  (Read 1365 times)

Jam The MF

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5E Dragonlance is out in the wild now.
« on: November 19, 2022, 01:49:34 AM »
I never did get into Dragonlance, but I understand it was quite popular.  How bad have they imprinted their modern sensibilities, onto Dragonlance for D&D 5E?
I was Banned from RPG.net a long time ago, for Having Common Sense.

Slipshot762

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Re: 5E Dragonlance is out in the wild now.
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2022, 01:18:41 PM »
Dragonlance....slowly I turned, step by step...

Do not get me started. While I cannot speak to 5e in any respect I can complain a lot about Dragonlance. Presently in preparation to run a DL campaign in D6 fantasy in fact.

Now first off it is a great setting truly, once you fill in the blanks (which it seems DL game products did a crap job of until the 3e line of stuff). It was always "wtf is in this spot of the map? government type? people? hello any of that?" compared to FR where the map and setting book pretty much give me a solid idea of what you will encounter and even who its working for no matter where you are.

The 3e material I think does a better job of answering those questions, the tales of the lance boxed set next, and I found the AD&D hardback the least useful in this regard. Basically DL draws a line between those who live behind walls and those who don't. People inside the walls may be flavored after every sort of culture or mish mash as the dm see's fit with the exception of a few cities and towns where such is established by novels, modules, or supplements. Those who live beyond the walls are considered barbarians by the walled folks, and here again you are given free reign to model them anyway you like, though at least two tribes in Abanasinia are modeled with native american thematics in some regards. So as ever the answer to "what is there on the map" is largely whatever you want to put there, barbarian tribes, petty kings, monster armies, all in whatever flavor you like. I intend for example for the Neraka region to thematically resemble mortal kombat for style and aesthetic. I think as far as portrayals vs player expectations that this particular aspect of DL is a little more forgiving than Forgotten Realms. Where DL fans expectations seem to center is on the novel characters and their deeds and less so on the setting that these characters are passing through.

Many long standing complaints about the setting get "cured" as it were by the end of the most advanced written part of the timeline (traumatized kender that are at least a different kind of annoying for example). Unfortunately the biggest DL fans (my available humanoids) don't want to play through the chaos war or the super mutant alien dragon overlords or even in the end point when its just unwritten chill and opportunity for sandbox but with bonus minotaurs. Oh no, that would be too fun you see. The war of the lance, by chemosh's barnacle encrusted bones, that's where you have to play. And don't you dare change the story, sir, or we spill mountain dew on purpose but pretend it's just because we are fat. Fat stubby little sausages, toppling all the things.

Great setting, great potential, a lot of room to make it your own, but I find the super-fans to be the hardest to run it for. I will most likely not be running the DL series of modules, those are actually IMHO pretty bad as far as modules go. Steel coins, this can give you fits. There are some good fan made explanations for it to make it make sense, I prefer the specially made chucky cheese trading token backed by the military might of Solamnia coupled with the superstition that coins with the king-priest of istar on them are cursed. But if you do xp for treasure you have to decide between shorting players on one end or the other, or making it known that the steel coin production began just after the cataclysm so there has been time for steel coins to make into treasure stockpiles in old ruins. The last one has the side effect of making pre-cataclysm ruins potentially less lucrative to delve unless a reasonable expectation of magic items is there to offset it.

Anyway back to your question; whatever they imprint or inject will likely not be felt by grog super-fans, as they refuse to move beyond that short period of novels they love so much and in which everything must be perfectly like the novels.

(proceeds to abuse players to death with novel-inflicted time table) heh, nothing personal kid.

FingerRod

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Re: 5E Dragonlance is out in the wild now.
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2022, 07:06:18 PM »
The UA released for Dragonlance was a mess. I’m not sure how much will make the actual release but given the integration with the board game, and how long it takes to manufacture, I am not expecting many changes.

I hated the Kender…almost all of the ideas were bad. Advantage on fear instead of immunity completely breaks lore. The Kender Aces table is an abomination, breaking lore AND really terrible in play at the table.

The way they approached Knights could be cool, but no fucking way would I allow bards and barbarians to background into it. No women either.

Hate the Sorcerer subclass. Anything moon-related should apply to Wizards.

Warlocks should not be in Krynn. Clerics should not be Knights.

I could go on. They could have expended a little effort to restrict and customize the game options to create something that feels like Dragonlance 5e. Instead it is just going to be 5e with the name Dragonlance.

I hope I am wrong, but I will know a lot more in three days or so.

Armchair Gamer

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Re: 5E Dragonlance is out in the wild now.
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2022, 03:15:35 PM »

  Slipshot,

  I was heavily involved with online Dragonlance fandom during the Fifth Age and War of Souls era, and you've pretty much nailed what frustrated me so much with the fandom--the slavish devotion to the 'Holy Six' and the desire to remain there, with more concern about nailing 'violations of canon' and reproducing the W&H works than actually doing something interesting with the setting.

Jason Coplen

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Re: 5E Dragonlance is out in the wild now.
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2022, 04:24:14 PM »
I'm not interested in the mostly awful setting, but to see how they can fuck it up might be good for a laugh.
Running: RQ and Vampire.

Slipshot762

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Re: 5E Dragonlance is out in the wild now.
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2022, 07:26:59 PM »

  Slipshot,

  I was heavily involved with online Dragonlance fandom during the Fifth Age and War of Souls era, and you've pretty much nailed what frustrated me so much with the fandom--the slavish devotion to the 'Holy Six' and the desire to remain there, with more concern about nailing 'violations of canon' and reproducing the W&H works than actually doing something interesting with the setting.
What I find telling in this regard is that if you question one of these super fans about Krynn they cannot fill in any blanks about the setting for you if such is not detailed in the original dragonlance novels, comics, war of the blue lady or such. Even within their preferred war of the lance time frame they have an absurd inability to articulate much of anything about the setting to you when asked and go "well you got to use steel coins to be authentic, but do you have an explanation for the absurdity of steel coins that makes it practical and believable?"

 and i'm like hey super fan YOU should be able to tell me...I can tell when I discuss it after having read or at least skimmed all these sources that some of them do not even recognize the names of any of the dieties other than Paladine Takhisis or Mishakal ...just those that get named dropped in novels. And bear in mind we are talking the owners of the very game products in question, loaned to me so i can run dragonlance for them. I can see clearly their objections to eras outside the war of lance are merely, imho, because they have not read up on such and thus its entirely alien to them and thus not dragonlance in their minds. They would thus lack the ability to correct or steer me for doing it wrong I think, but if they do not even know the names of any of the gods not directly novelized then I say they lack the impetus to do so even in their preferred era.

The settings potential is great. The fanbase, in my neck of the woods at least, not so much, it's a sort of cheer-for-the-ball-team thing, where you don't have to know anything about the team or the game but you do got to paint yourself up, chug brew, and bellow from the stands about how your team is the best.

Omega

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Re: 5E Dragonlance is out in the wild now.
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2022, 07:28:01 AM »
I liked the original DL RPG book from TSR. It allowed you to play in the setting. But left about everything else open ended. It seemed to nominally take place after the wars but could be set up about anywhere in the timeline at the time of release.

As for the setting being vague. Part of that may have been intentional. I know a few TSR setting used to deliberately leave at least an unexplored area for the DM to drop anything they wanted. Others were vague so as to allow the DM and players freedom to make of it want you will. BX D&D is still my go-to example of that.

Problem was that players kept pestering TSR about what was where and eventually TSR started believing that and there was a big movement to cram every damn hex on a map with towns and whatever till there was nothing left. Why I do not like Mystara.

As for the fanatics. That has ever been a problem. Its just gotten worse now as there are a growing legion of these morons who are what I like to call "word of mouth" fans. They havent actually read much, if any, of the material. They just parrot what others told them. Armchair elitists. Seen it here and very seen it on BGG. Sheep who hate something because someone told them to.

FingerRod

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Re: 5E Dragonlance is out in the wild now.
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2022, 10:30:59 AM »
The gold box Champions of Krynn computer game did a good job of creating a story held together within, while only having the occasional cameo from the original companions. I believe Jim Ward was the lead writer.

I picked up a digital copy of the books, including the rulebooks, journals, and clue books (which houses all of the maps), and it provides a great set of resources for creating your own version of those events. I think the bundle was around $5. I have not ran it yet, but plan to in the future. I will use it as a fast follow to a War of the Lance campaign.

Abraxus

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Re: 5E Dragonlance is out in the wild now.
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2022, 10:04:51 AM »
Fingerrod u it D their any restrictions to what races can take certain classes? Are we going to see Kender and Draconians now able to be Knights of Solamnia? Did Gully Dwarves suddenly stop being dumber than a bag of hammers.


Omega

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Re: 5E Dragonlance is out in the wild now.
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2022, 01:55:58 PM »
I played through the gold box set way back. Was pretty good and proved that there were plenty of things to do heroically and as usual blows out of the water the incessant whining of "wah wah wah! Theres heroes in the setting. I can NEVER EVER be a hero now!"

FingerRod

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Re: 5E Dragonlance is out in the wild now.
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2022, 10:20:04 PM »
Fingerrod u it D their any restrictions to what races can take certain classes? Are we going to see Kender and Draconians now able to be Knights of Solamnia? Did Gully Dwarves suddenly stop being dumber than a bag of hammers.

There are no restrictions from what I can see, but it has been a fairly faithful representation of the standard Age of Despair (so far). I am in chapter three.

The UA released for Dragonlance was a mess. I’m not sure how much will make the actual release but given the integration with the board game, and how long it takes to manufacture, I am not expecting many changes.

I hated the Kender…almost all of the ideas were bad. Advantage on fear instead of immunity completely breaks lore. The Kender Aces table is an abomination, breaking lore AND really terrible in play at the table.

The way they approached Knights could be cool, but no fucking way would I allow bards and barbarians to background into it. No women either.

Hate the Sorcerer subclass. Anything moon-related should apply to Wizards.

Warlocks should not be in Krynn. Clerics should not be Knights.

I could go on. They could have expended a little effort to restrict and customize the game options to create something that feels like Dragonlance 5e. Instead it is just going to be 5e with the name Dragonlance.

I hope I am wrong, but I will know a lot more in three days or so.

Glad to report that Kender are just fine. Looks like they scrapped the pocket dimension in their pouches idea completely. They still only have advantage on saves vs fear BUT they can basically legendary action a success once a day. That is fine. Also okay with taunt.

Still don’t love warlocks and shit in the setting, but I need to get over that. I can always restrict it, just like have before.

All characters get an additional feat. If not due to background, you get something that makes the character tougher or more skilled. Probably not something 5e needed to do, but I’ll wait to see how it plays at the table.

The Knights of Solamnia are really well done. I still won’t let anything other than a Fighter or Paladin select it as a background. So they can pound sand. Women as Knights during this time is a retcon, but inevitable and not the first time this has been done iirc.

More to come once I finish it. I’ll do a full review in a couple days. Likely while I’m bored listening to cat stories with the in-laws. Through chapter three and it is good stuff. Other than the art. I think we’ve officially hit bottom in the art department. Elmore has forever burned a beautiful Krynn into my brain, but it is comically bad what they did with this.

The three prelude scenarios were pretty weak. The fishing competition that was publicly touted is mechanically done well.

Armchair Gamer

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Re: 5E Dragonlance is out in the wild now.
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2022, 09:51:31 AM »
How are the gods handled? There have been varying interpretations of the Krynnish pantheons, and I'm curious to see whether some of the 'heretical' texts are still cropping up. :)

Tasty_Wind

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Re: 5E Dragonlance is out in the wild now.
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2022, 10:02:41 AM »
Not familiar with the source material, but seeing as how they handled 5E Spelljammer, I wouldn’t be surprised if they forgot to put dragons in it. ;D

Armchair Gamer

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Re: 5E Dragonlance is out in the wild now.
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2022, 10:42:43 AM »

The Knights of Solamnia are really well done. I still won’t let anything other than a Fighter or Paladin select it as a background. So they can pound sand. Women as Knights during this time is a retcon, but inevitable and not the first time this has been done iirc.

   Well, there was precedent in the Third Dragon War according to Astinus in Dragons of Spring Dawning, and the DC Comics have Riva Silvercrown running around aspiring to Knighthood at about this same time--and she will eventually make it, even if she spends most of her time on Taladas. I'd say it should be treated as 'highly uncommon, and remarked upon, but not outright forbidden.'

Slipshot762

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Re: 5E Dragonlance is out in the wild now.
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2022, 11:06:54 AM »
i would just make up a new knight order or sub-order of all females.