Quote from: Tyndale;806136Random encounters need not be level-appropriate for the adventurers,


but it's considered bad form to slaughter a party using a random encounter,


since most players consider this ending to be an unsatisfying one.

Doesn't sound like text written from a role-player's point of view.

Quote from: Jaeger;806144Part of the problem is that many of the current generation of D&D players will not necessarily run away if they start getting their asses kicked.

Because for many years with organized play, many D&D PC's have gone into every "encounter" with the assumption that they will win.

I blame today's gamegeek E3 culture and Comic-Con where jolly good swag is gathered by all. No one leaves without their parting gifts.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;806386Doesn't sound like text written from a role-player's point of view.

Yes, because ONLY people who play like you are roleplayers. :rolleyes:

(Hell, I'm not even anti-tpk, but I just think this whole mindset of "if you were a reeeeal roleplayer, you would think the same as me" is bullshit.)

Quote from: Emperor Norton;806388Yes, because ONLY people who play like you are roleplayers. :rolleyes:

(Hell, I'm not even anti-tpk, but I just think this whole mindset of "if you were a reeeeal roleplayer, you would think the same as me" is bullshit.)

If you were a reeeeal roleplayer, you'd be just a roleplayer is all. You have a YouTube video of one of your game sessions?

As I recall, Gygax led off the 1st DMG  with a discussion of a random encounter en route to the dungeon, opining regarding what's fun and not and what the DM should do about it.

5E is meant to support a variety of playstyles. That doesn't mean the authors of the DMG should pretend there aren't typical play expectations. Stating that most players find a TPK from a random encounter unsatisfactory, and the DM should use judgement and restraint with random encounters, is in fact sensible advice given the most common approach to the game. Just as the notion that there will probably combat in a D&D session is a common approach to the game. Coming out and saying so doesn't demonize games that are entirely social rolelplaying.

If you're a big boy who is confident enough to ignore a whole sentence from the DMG, there is absolutely no problem. WotC haven't jumped off the page and shat all over your gaming table. And for a new DM, it's perfectly sensible advice, given the context, stated repeatedly in the 5E DMG, that the game is yours to make your own.

This is just more old-school Taliban fake-fretting about how new players will approach the game, old values being lost, kids today, piss and moan, piss and moan, piss and moan.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;806394If you were a reeeeal roleplayer, you'd be just a roleplayer is all. You have a YouTube video of one of your game sessions?

No, I don't, and you do realize you are doing the exact same thing the opening post is complaining about, only more extreme.

All it was suggesting is not to put ridiculously overpowering random encounters in your encounter charts, which was something Gygax himself suggested in his own GM advice, as cited upthread. (oops, guess Gygax wasn't a real roleplayer either).

But yay, one true wayism. If you don't play 100% Shawn Driscoll's way, you aren't a roleplayer. Man, the roleplaying hobby must be much smaller than even I thought.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;806450All it was suggesting is not to put ridiculously overpowering random encounters in your encounter charts, which was something Gygax himself suggested in his own GM advice, as cited upthread. (oops, guess Gygax wasn't a real roleplayer either).

Typical OSR dungeons have on-level wandering monster charts, which does support this idea, for sure. I suspect death by WM out in the great, wide world is a more common feature of sandbox play, which I believe has already been suggested in this thread. I'm fully agree with you, Norton, on the point you've made here.I would agree most players probably don't like random death, but would say that sometimes things happen that we don't like. I would also add that, if that's something a group really wants, stylistically, to stick with games with rapid chargen (which is what I do, not because I want a bunch of TPK's, but mainly because I don't cotton to min-maxing and 4-page character sheets).

Summary: I think most folks agree with your general concerns, Norton. They're fair and reasonable.

Quote from: Haffrung;8064495E is meant to support a variety of playstyles....

Agreed. You can shape it pretty well to fit your needs. I believe, however, that the core books inherently support a less old school style, because widgets and fiddly bits. But, hey, you can take them out, right? I think the free pdf's are quite old school, in many ways, and it's hackable, so, shape to fit.

Quote from: Haffrung;806449This is just more old-school Taliban fake-fretting about how new players will approach the game, old values being lost, kids today, piss and moan, piss and moan, piss and moan.

You mean, kids today are big, fuckin', over-protected, entitled pussies? Oh, absolutely. Just like they've always been. :-)

But seriously, my group of young players, all of whom started a grand campaign with me when they were in HS 3 years ago (a campaign that recently concluded), have played through some harsh shit. By the time we reached the end game, all but two of the original characters were hosed by something. Two of them were just combinations of bad luck/poor decision-making, to wit:

(1) The party wizard (and scholar) failed a save, got engulfed by a Dusanu (an old Mystaran creature), then got torched when the cavalry came and a local shaman the party befriended laid down a huge fireball, burning his remains (no spell sculpting with the old rules). the REALLY shitty thing was, the party did not have to investigate that area at all if they didn't want to (it was one of several routes to get to where they were going), and they could have retreated when the mage went down. Hubris. Without the cavalry, there would have been a TPK, for sure.

(2) The stalwart, grumpy-ass dwarf (who'd been ostracized by his people when he mauled his own sister for "impudence" [this player has always been known for doing crazy shit]), got held by a mage, then cut up by a Death Knight with a Life Stealing sword. Failed save, from the character with the best rating in this department. Dead, soul-drained, gone. Rolls were all in the open, so, no fudging on my part.

Eventually, the Paladin forsook his vows, having seen so many friends around him die. He became a vigilante, eventually tracked down the big bad they'd been seeking for years, took his vengeance, and put the souls of his friends to rest (in a nice bit of description that occurred when the bad guy died).  

So, it sucked when the long-time characters went down (especially the Mage, who was a nice guy, brave, and smart). The dwarf was a bit of an asshole, but he was the Paladin's oldest bud, so that stung a bit, too. Strangely enough, an NPC female elf warrior that segued into a PC when we had another player joined, lived to tell the tales, as did a party enemy who joined with them for the capstone (bc the enemy of my enemy is my friend).

Long story, but, these are players new to gaming who handled setbacks VERY well. They had some fantastic, snatched-from-the-jaws-of-defeat victories and some horrible, horrible losses. In the end, death became a part of the story, and the story was better for it. New players can hang as well as grizzled vets. You just have to expect they can deal with it, and they will. If they can't, well, there's always Neverwinter online.

It's not that I WANT a TPK to happen... but I absolutely do NOT want to play in a game where I KNOW they won't EVER happen. Been there and done that too many times... THAT feels like a bigger 'waste of time' to me because it means nothing I did really mattered, I was going to live/succeed anyway (because GM's pulling punches on death generally pull them elsewhere as well).
If I know the rules will kill my PC and I trust the GM to let it happen... I'm good.

Quote from: Jaeger;806144Part of the problem is that many of the current generation of D&D players will not necessarily run away if they start getting their asses kicked.

Some lessons are more painful in the learning than others. My players, regardless of age or past experience know going in that combat rolls are all openly made and if they stick around too long when dropping like flies that no miracle will save them.

It is the duty of each DM to set expectations for such things before play begins. If this edition does nothing else except convey the message that each DM is responsible for their own game then it is a win.

Oh, and a warm welcome, Shawn Driscoll, to the fold of TBP exiles!

When the burning sensation dies down, have a seat and enjoy freedom, baby.

Quote from: Simlasa;806460It's not that I WANT a TPK to happen... but I absolutely do NOT want to play in a game where I KNOW they won't EVER happen. Been there and done that too many times... THAT feels like a bigger 'waste of time' to me because it means nothing I did really mattered, I was going to live/succeed anyway (because GM's pulling punches on death generally pull them elsewhere as well).
If I know the rules will kill my PC and I trust the GM to let it happen... I'm good.

See, the thing is, I'm actually more in agreement with this. I just think that if you are making a random encounter chart for an area you expect the players to be able to travel through, you should probably keep in mind the difficulty of what you are putting on it. I don't think that is pulling punches. It even says that not everything on it has to be level appropriate, just not to steamroll your players.

And keep in mind that this is all in the context of the DMG as a whole, which, admittedly, isn't really designed to give advice on sandbox play, and instead gives advice on a more adventure location oriented game (which, I would bet, though have nothing other than anecdotal evidence to back up, is a more popular style than pure sandbox).

In that context, of people wandering in areas that the GM intended them to be, the "don't put roflstomp encounters that will absolutely kill the players" isn't really bad advice.

If I'm going to be TPKed, I'd rather it be because of our characters doing badly, or the players acting stupid, or the enemies just roll super well, not because the GM put an encounter into an area we were supposed to be adventuring through that can happen 1% of the time that is pretty much death on a stick.

One problem I have with some games is that the underpinnings of the game are so distant from both reality and broad genres that 'reasonable caution' is hard to suss out. Thus, frustration.

For example, I played a dragon shaman in Shadowrun once. I was new to the system, but the others assured me I was doing rather well.

So, I was tasked to guard a place. Apparently I should have called up spirits to watch over the area. Didn't know that.
So when the Yakuza showed up, the GM decided that instead of just killing me, they cut off my arms as a warning to the others. Great. Artificial limbs on a magic guy.

I was constantly almost killed because of other nonobvious stuff, and the GM REALLY should have steered me toward playing a quiet guy who is good at some simple job.

Quote from: Simlasa;806460It's not that I WANT a TPK to happen... but I absolutely do NOT want to play in a game where I KNOW they won't EVER happen. Been there and done that too many times... THAT feels like a bigger 'waste of time' to me because it means nothing I did really mattered, I was going to live/succeed anyway (because GM's pulling punches on death generally pull them elsewhere as well).
If I know the rules will kill my PC and I trust the GM to let it happen... I'm good.

To me, it's not all or nothing; No tpk is not the same as my particular character being invulnerable, and a game that's not even about bloody violence is still a game.

Quote from: Simlasa;806460It's not that I WANT a TPK to happen... but I absolutely do NOT want to play in a game where I KNOW they won't EVER happen. Been there and done that too many times... THAT feels like a bigger 'waste of time' to me because it means nothing I did really mattered, I was going to live/succeed anyway (because GM's pulling punches on death generally pull them elsewhere as well).
If I know the rules will kill my PC and I trust the GM to let it happen... I'm good.

Yeah, I'll populate a world with things that can kill the characters but won't just try to kill them as the first reaction for every encounter.

Random encounter with a Giant Constrictor? Maybe it won't be hungry for another week, but if the players decide they can't just let it be then one of them could be dinner.

Random encounter with an Orc raiding party? Maybe they just hit a rich target and don't need anything from the characters, but start a confrontation and they will end it.

Random encounter with bandits? Pay them off instead of fighting, bribe them to do something for the characters, lure them into a troll den with promises of greater goods than the characters are carrying.

Random encounters can easily be TPK threats without an assumption that everything they come into contact with will attack them on sight. Those situations should be in the game to give clever characters something to work with past "I hit it with my axe".