Quote from: S'mon on March 29, 2023, 02:57:49 AM
I agree with jhkim. IME the traditional typical D&D player does not really distinguish their personality from that of the PC.

My experience is that there is nearly always some overt aspect of the player in the PC, but also some notable differences.  I rarely see a player "play themselves" and I rarely see one immerse into a completely different personality.  In fact, now that I think about it, I'd say the most common thing in my long-term players is that they develop 2-4 "character personalities" which they repeat from game to game.  It's not quite what I mean, but picture a player doing, for example, "Clint Eastwood as the man with no name" playing the character. 

Quote from: jhkim on March 29, 2023, 04:25:23 PM
The same goes for my Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG games. By the rules, it costs just 1 Drama Point to have a twist and avoid death, which effectively eliminates random death. The expectation was that characters could go through terrible loss, but they wouldn't be randomly dropped. The PCs all had things they cared about, and those could be lost or destroyed. The games tended to be darker, but it still kept to the genre and Main Cast were never randomly killed.

The RPG says this about Plot Twists:

Quote
Once per game session, each character can spend a Drama Point and get a "break." This is not a Get Out of Jail Free Card. ... If you decide that a Plot Twist is not possible, the player gets the Drama Point back.

So it's far from guaranteed that a player could rely on that. Not that there's anything wrong with your group playing it differently, but it doesn't appear to be the default approach.

Quote from: blackstone on March 29, 2023, 02:33:24 PM

Quote from: multiarms on March 29, 2023, 09:06:22 AM
Is there a link to a source of J. Scott G or someone else actually saying that PC death without player consent is a hate crime? Because if not, then this video is just ranting against a straw man.

RPGPundit won't link to the YOuTube channel, due to the fact that the douche bag in question doesn't need any more traction to his channel. I'm with RPGPundit on this one. As the English say, he's a nutter.

That douchebag's YT traffic is in the dozens. Pundit even mentioning him by name gives this guy and his channel more visibility than anything he could do on his own. Honestly it's kind of embarrassing that Pundit paid him any mind at all. But the nutter certainly served as a convenient straw man for a rant about players these days. Kinda feels like picking on a kid who rides the short bus to school though.

Quote from: Krazz on March 29, 2023, 05:13:38 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 29, 2023, 04:25:23 PM
The same goes for my Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG games. By the rules, it costs just 1 Drama Point to have a twist and avoid death, which effectively eliminates random death. The expectation was that characters could go through terrible loss, but they wouldn't be randomly dropped. The PCs all had things they cared about, and those could be lost or destroyed. The games tended to be darker, but it still kept to the genre and Main Cast were never randomly killed.

The RPG says this about Plot Twists:

QuoteOnce per game session, each character can spend a Drama Point and get a "break." This is not a Get Out of Jail Free Card. ... If you decide that a Plot Twist is not possible, the player gets the Drama Point back.

So it's far from guaranteed that a player could rely on that. Not that there's anything wrong with your group playing it differently, but it doesn't appear to be the default approach.

Why would you quote the "Plot Twist" section, when on the very same page there is a separate use of Drama Points that is explicitly for "Back from the Dead"? From that same chapter on page 128,

QuoteBack from the Dead
...
A character who dies may, by spending Drama Points, make a triumphant return. No return from the grave is ever without complications, however, and not even Drama Points can erase the problems that result from cheating the Grim Reaper.

I agree that "Plot Twist" isn't necessarily sufficient to prevent PC death, but "Back from the Dead" is. It even explicitly says that even if the player doesn't have enough Drama Points, that they can go into debt and pay the Drama Points back later.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 29, 2023, 04:53:01 PM
We seem to be speaking past each other, let me see if I can convey my point:

Complaining that a game where PC death is a distinct possibility is stupid, people should either house rule it so it does what they want or better yet find a game that already does what they want and play that.

Superhero games aren't bad because PCs don't die, it comes with the genre (unless you're emulating Watchmen or other dark and gritty (edgy) comic). The same can be said about Pulp, the heroes don't die, they get captured, suffer amnesia, etc.

Death is only ONE fail condition, there are others, but complaining that Champions doesn't have a DCC style funnel where the PCs die or that the PCs won't die ever is just plain stupid.

Like wise, if playing Toon I insert Cthulhu as an antagonist my players would be either demented or stupid to expect the same play style than in CoC.

Returning to 5e, the rules HAVE death as a possible outcome (even if they then go out of their way to remove it by spells, etc), so you need to be either demented, stupid, disingenuous or a combination of all to complain that the PCs can die.

Rounding it all up: It's utterly retarded to expect CoC to play like Champions or D&D to play as CoC, unless the GM established something at the start of the campaign that reasonably makes the players to expect it.

Yes, we are talking past each other. I agree with everything you say here.

Quote from: jhkim on March 29, 2023, 07:54:26 PM

Quote from: Krazz on March 29, 2023, 05:13:38 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 29, 2023, 04:25:23 PM
The same goes for my Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG games. By the rules, it costs just 1 Drama Point to have a twist and avoid death, which effectively eliminates random death. The expectation was that characters could go through terrible loss, but they wouldn't be randomly dropped. The PCs all had things they cared about, and those could be lost or destroyed. The games tended to be darker, but it still kept to the genre and Main Cast were never randomly killed.

The RPG says this about Plot Twists:

QuoteOnce per game session, each character can spend a Drama Point and get a "break." This is not a Get Out of Jail Free Card. ... If you decide that a Plot Twist is not possible, the player gets the Drama Point back.

So it's far from guaranteed that a player could rely on that. Not that there's anything wrong with your group playing it differently, but it doesn't appear to be the default approach.

Why would you quote the "Plot Twist" section, when on the very same page there is a separate use of Drama Points that is explicitly for "Back from the Dead"? From that same chapter on page 128,

QuoteBack from the Dead
...
A character who dies may, by spending Drama Points, make a triumphant return. No return from the grave is ever without complications, however, and not even Drama Points can erase the problems that result from cheating the Grim Reaper.

I agree that "Plot Twist" isn't necessarily sufficient to prevent PC death, but "Back from the Dead" is. It even explicitly says that even if the player doesn't have enough Drama Points, that they can go into debt and pay the Drama Points back later.

Thanks, I hate that game/mechanic.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 30, 2023, 02:27:14 AM

I'm gonna name my next thief Black Leaf in honor of Marcie. RIP babe.

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 30, 2023, 09:38:28 AM
I'm gonna name my next thief Black Leaf in honor of Marcie. RIP babe.

There was an RPG group at DragonCon one year passing out pins that said 'I Killed Black Leaf'.

Honestly, the argument is a little silly. High lethality games should avoid complex and heavily involved character generation unless you have the opportunity to generate multiple characters and swap them in (Paranoia or Twilight 2000).

The more time you ask a player to spend cranking out their PC, the more they're going to get attached to it. Don't be surprised if they don't feel inclined to just let that PC slip off to the great beyond.

That being said, declaring it a hate crime is ludicrous and should be responded to by hitting those saying it with a wiffle bat.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 30, 2023, 10:17:04 AM
That being said, declaring it a hate crime is ludicrous and should be responded to by hitting those saying it with a wiffle bat.

Or invite them to a game.  Then a day or so later, send them a note that the character they were going to play in your game, died--before they could create it.  Oh well, when we have another character for you, we'll let you  know.

Quote from: Jam The MF on March 27, 2023, 06:00:47 PM
Modern SJW players probably want to cancel any DM / GM, who dares to kill off their fantasy RPG character.  Oh the horror of it all!!! 

Too many players, too few DMs/GMs.  Players cancel us, but they can be cancelled as a player.  I knew a player who was so bad I kicked them out and they were kicked out other groups as well to a point where they couldnt find a game anymore.

Meanwhile if a player needs to leave my group I always can find a replacement quick.

I have had a few problem players but they are gone so fast their heads are left spinning.

Quote from: King Tyranno on March 28, 2023, 06:21:58 AM
But so many people watch Critical Role and just see RPGs as "a collaborative storytelling exercise" where they are the stars and constantly need "super awesome" moments where they do "super awesome" things. In an RPG what happens is the story evolves from what the players do. But so many of these people want to force their story onto the game and have it go exactly like they want in their heads.

That's the crux of the problem.  Critical Role are not actually gamers (they may off the show) they are just actors acting out a scripted game.  What they do is nothing what real gaming is like.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 30, 2023, 02:27:14 AM

Oh no, please dont leave!   

Those people get kicked out of my game and I move on without thinking about them again.

Quote from: jhkim on March 29, 2023, 07:54:26 PM

Quote from: Krazz on March 29, 2023, 05:13:38 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 29, 2023, 04:25:23 PM
The same goes for my Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG games. By the rules, it costs just 1 Drama Point to have a twist and avoid death...

...

Why would you quote the "Plot Twist" section, when on the very same page there is a separate use of Drama Points that is explicitly for "Back from the Dead"?

Because you mentioned using a twist to avoid dying, not a different named mechanic that doesn't avoid death.

Quote from: jhkim on March 29, 2023, 07:54:26 PM

Quote
A character who dies may, by spending Drama Points, make a triumphant return. No return from the grave is ever without complications, however, and not even Drama Points can erase the problems that result from cheating the Grim Reaper.

I agree that "Plot Twist" isn't necessarily sufficient to prevent PC death, but "Back from the Dead" is. It even explicitly says that even if the player doesn't have enough Drama Points, that they can go into debt and pay the Drama Points back later.

Sure, but if they spend lots of points and go into debt, then they're far more likely to die again. And if they spend just 1 point as you suggested, the rulebook says:

Quote
Coming back next Season costs one Drama Point (that means the player is going to need a new Cast Member until then).

So I can't imagine that players who get upset at dying will be much happier with their PC sitting out the whole season and having them fall behind in experience.

This is *bizarre* to me.

No death in TTRPG's means there are no stakes that matter. The whole point of playing a RPG is to play another person - *even* if you model it after yourself.

Ideally you're going to make changes for the purposes of exploring the boots of another perspective somewhat adjacent to your own. Or if you got the chops, you go full out. But without Death as a possibility - I'm not sure how this even happens, when you lose in boardgames, it's the same effect, you're OUT of the game. When Pac-Man gets caught by ghosts, is this some kind of hate-crime against round people that like to eat shit?

And yes, even in Supers people die - it's happened in the comics through all ages, and the only reason the trope of coming back is a thing is because comics are serialized adventures. Yes, it should be rare(er) in TTRPG's for PC's, but in my games it happens on occasion and we do make a big deal about it. But it is ALWAYS on the menu.