There's a reason why 5e gamers feel like their character dying in regular D&D play is somehow an attack on their very selves. It's because they're doing the exact opposite of what you were meant to do with characters in D&D.
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Will listen later tonight, but the title alone made me LOL.

Pundit,

Great video. Looks like Meatball likes the Gonzo book! (10:18)

Modern SJW players probably want to cancel any DM / GM, who dares to kill off their fantasy RPG character.  Oh the horror of it all!!! 

If you think about it, killing someone's PC is like killing a part of them! All PCs are just vehicles for wish fulfillment fantasies

One thing you touch upon is the absurd tendency nowadays to write huge backstories for first-level characters. It's very funny when such characters get killed off soon thereafter.

I've always absolutely hated how a lot of RPG players just hate dying. I can name many times I've had a situation where a PC rolls were bad and they got killed by a kobald or a goblin or something like that. And they start blaming me as the GM. I'm not an adversarial GM. I'm not actively trying to kill the players but I am trying to stress challenge and that death can happen. But so many people watch Critical Role and just see RPGs as "a collaborative storytelling exercise" where they are the stars and constantly need "super awesome" moments where they do "super awesome" things. In an RPG what happens is the story evolves from what the players do. But so many of these people want to force their story onto the game and have it go exactly like they want in their heads.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on March 28, 2023, 04:11:22 AM
One thing you touch upon is the absurd tendency nowadays to write huge backstories for first-level characters. It's very funny when such characters get killed off soon thereafter.

I had a player in a recent game who did that. They got annoyed I didn't remember their backstory. I have to deal with 7 other kids. I'm not memorizing their badly made fantasy novel. They can participate like everyone else. And let the story evolve from player actions like everyone else.

Quote from: King Tyranno on March 28, 2023, 06:21:58 AM
I've always absolutely hated how a lot of RPG players just hate dying. I can name many times I've had a situation where a PC rolls were bad and they got killed by a kobald or a goblin or something like that. And they start blaming me as the GM. I'm not an adversarial GM. I'm not actively trying to kill the players but I am trying to stress challenge and that death can happen. But so many people watch Critical Role and just see RPGs as "a collaborative storytelling exercise" where they are the stars and constantly need "super awesome" moments where they do "super awesome" things. In an RPG what happens is the story evolves from what the players do. But so many of these people want to force their story onto the game and have it go exactly like they want in their heads.

A big problem here is that having your character die in an act of heroic self-sacrifice which saves everyone else IS a "super awesome" moment where they did "super awesome" things. The dipshits just don't understand that.

Quote from: Zelen on March 27, 2023, 07:03:06 PM
If you think about it, killing someone's PC is like killing a part of them! All PCs are just vehicles for wish fulfillment fantasies

Has there ever been a time when it hasn't been that way? I thought the entire point of TTRPGs was to play characters that serve as vehicles for wish fulfillment fantasies.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 28, 2023, 06:28:18 AM

Quote from: King Tyranno on March 28, 2023, 06:21:58 AM
I've always absolutely hated how a lot of RPG players just hate dying. I can name many times I've had a situation where a PC rolls were bad and they got killed by a kobald or a goblin or something like that. And they start blaming me as the GM. I'm not an adversarial GM. I'm not actively trying to kill the players but I am trying to stress challenge and that death can happen. But so many people watch Critical Role and just see RPGs as "a collaborative storytelling exercise" where they are the stars and constantly need "super awesome" moments where they do "super awesome" things. In an RPG what happens is the story evolves from what the players do. But so many of these people want to force their story onto the game and have it go exactly like they want in their heads.

A big problem here is that having your character die in an act of heroic self-sacrifice which saves everyone else IS a "super awesome" moment where they did "super awesome" things. The dipshits just don't understand that.

How often does it actually go down like that, though? Usually when a PC dies is cuz of a bad roll, or a lucky roll from the enemy. There's nothing heroic about it, just random roll of the dice. And the next most common way of dying in a TTRPG is a result of poor player decisions. Good, but again, not heroic acts.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 28, 2023, 07:36:15 AM

How often does it actually go down like that, though? Usually when a PC dies is cuz of a bad roll, or a lucky roll from the enemy. There's nothing heroic about it, just random roll of the dice. And the next most common way of dying in a TTRPG is a result of poor player decisions. Good, but again, not heroic acts.

The rareness is part of the appeal, especially when it happens organically instead of because the player decided it was time for the character to die.  I'm not saying that the grind of "killed by goblin #5" or "fell in a pit trap, again!" can't go too far.  It certainly can, especially if neither the GM nor the players are learning from their mistakes.  However, it's a group mistake to go too far the other way, too, as it cheapens all the "achievements", including heroic death.

I've introduced some players to old school play recently.  We've had multiple instances where someone commented that they thought that they had earned what they won.  They used those terms, not me putting words in their mouths.  In other words, their reaction was the opposite of entitled.  Some of them are relatively young, too.   One player has a character that has cheated death so often it has become a running gag.  It's mainly been bad luck that has put him in that position, too.  In other words, with all the bad luck he has had, he should have died some time ago, but having just scraped buy feels like an achievement--for the whole party.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 28, 2023, 06:28:18 AM

Quote from: King Tyranno on March 28, 2023, 06:21:58 AM
I've always absolutely hated how a lot of RPG players just hate dying. I can name many times I've had a situation where a PC rolls were bad and they got killed by a kobald or a goblin or something like that. And they start blaming me as the GM. I'm not an adversarial GM. I'm not actively trying to kill the players but I am trying to stress challenge and that death can happen. But so many people watch Critical Role and just see RPGs as "a collaborative storytelling exercise" where they are the stars and constantly need "super awesome" moments where they do "super awesome" things. In an RPG what happens is the story evolves from what the players do. But so many of these people want to force their story onto the game and have it go exactly like they want in their heads.

A big problem here is that having your character die in an act of heroic self-sacrifice which saves everyone else IS a "super awesome" moment where they did "super awesome" things. The dipshits just don't understand that.

Exactly.  A couple years ago, we had one of those Gandalf vs. the Balrog moments where the party pyromancer sacrificed himself for the group, even tossing his mi-go pistol (we were playing Hyperborea) to one of the other PCs as he fell.  The players still talk about it, and one PC still packs that pistol.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 28, 2023, 07:36:15 AM

Quote from: Zelen on March 27, 2023, 07:03:06 PM
If you think about it, killing someone's PC is like killing a part of them! All PCs are just vehicles for wish fulfillment fantasies

Has there ever been a time when it hasn't been that way? I thought the entire point of TTRPGs was to play characters that serve as vehicles for wish fulfillment fantasies.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 28, 2023, 06:28:18 AM

Quote from: King Tyranno on March 28, 2023, 06:21:58 AM
I've always absolutely hated how a lot of RPG players just hate dying. I can name many times I've had a situation where a PC rolls were bad and they got killed by a kobald or a goblin or something like that. And they start blaming me as the GM. I'm not an adversarial GM. I'm not actively trying to kill the players but I am trying to stress challenge and that death can happen. But so many people watch Critical Role and just see RPGs as "a collaborative storytelling exercise" where they are the stars and constantly need "super awesome" moments where they do "super awesome" things. In an RPG what happens is the story evolves from what the players do. But so many of these people want to force their story onto the game and have it go exactly like they want in their heads.

A big problem here is that having your character die in an act of heroic self-sacrifice which saves everyone else IS a "super awesome" moment where they did "super awesome" things. The dipshits just don't understand that.

How often does it actually go down like that, though? Usually when a PC dies is cuz of a bad roll, or a lucky roll from the enemy. There's nothing heroic about it, just random roll of the dice. And the next most common way of dying in a TTRPG is a result of poor player decisions. Good, but again, not heroic acts.

How often do players talk about getting characters killed by mundane mistakes compared to how often players talk about their character sacrificing themselves for the greater good? That should tell you which is more important to your players.

As long as PC survivability is proportional to the effort needed to create a new character, then death is fine.

AD&D1e had the right level for its lethality; roll 3d6 six times, pick race, pick class, roll starting hp, pick basic gear, done. If your PC dies you can have a replacement ready in 5-10 minutes and just need to wait for the next opportunity to be inserted into group (I remember a LOT of PC prisoners found in dungeons in those days).

Similarly, Champions point-buy meant it took a lot more time to make a PC, but conversely the rules and superhero genre made death relatively rare (but unconsciousness and exhaustion common). If your PC died it might be next session before you could play again, but the odds of needing to were quite low.

By contrast, A Time of War (the Battletech RPG) sent you through a lifepath character building experience wherein your PC earned xp towards specific attributes and skills (and sometimes lost xp to them) and got pools of xp to spend on slightly wider categories at each stage, after which you total the xp earned for each stat and skill... but the system used the same 1-in-36 chance per shot (and Mechs can take a lot of shots per turn) of a headcap instantly killing your PC... at which point you have to start the path over again.

The first time we played it, one of us got headcapped 10 minutes into the campaign and had to spend the rest of the session making a new PC. When the second PC died due to sheer bad luck with the dice and faced the same prospect... well, that was the last time we played A Time of War RPG despite our love for Battletech as a wargame. The character creation time to death ratio was too skewed to be worth it.

I will also lay some of the blame for a mismatch of text to mechanics. The further into D&D you go, and certainly by 3e, the character creation rules were full of descriptions of how you're creating a heroic character and that you should spend time developing their background and personal details that make them unique.

If the system mechanics then turn out to be a meat grinder that chews up characters every session, well, there's a mismatch of expectations and mechanics. Why is a meat grinder system wasting page count telling you to imagine backstories for PCs who stand barely a 50/50 shot at surviving the first session?

It should be saying "who you were before doesn't matter; you're cannon fodder; but maybe some of you will survive long enough to make a name for themselves." That sets the lethality expectations appropriately compared to "you're a hero with a past and motivations" (but then you die like D-list X-Men during an crossover event).

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 28, 2023, 07:36:15 AM

Quote from: Zelen on March 27, 2023, 07:03:06 PM
If you think about it, killing someone's PC is like killing a part of them! All PCs are just vehicles for wish fulfillment fantasies

Has there ever been a time when it hasn't been that way? I thought the entire point of TTRPGs was to play characters that serve as vehicles for wish fulfillment fantasies.

The obvious counter point is all the games that have random character generation. I never wished to be a female cleric disowned from her noble house, but I played one and it was interesting and fun. Wish fulfillment is just one mode of role play.

Everyone wants treasure. Is doling out loot wish fulfillment? I don't think so. Wish fulfillment has a specific meaning. When done badly, it provides rewards without risk or challenge. Or the story arc is forced in a way that satisfies the players but makes less sense than other conclusions.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 28, 2023, 07:36:15 AM

Quote from: Zelen on March 27, 2023, 07:03:06 PM
If you think about it, killing someone's PC is like killing a part of them! All PCs are just vehicles for wish fulfillment fantasies

Has there ever been a time when it hasn't been that way? I thought the entire point of TTRPGs was to play characters that serve as vehicles for wish fulfillment fantasies.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 28, 2023, 06:28:18 AM

Quote from: King Tyranno on March 28, 2023, 06:21:58 AM
I've always absolutely hated how a lot of RPG players just hate dying. I can name many times I've had a situation where a PC rolls were bad and they got killed by a kobald or a goblin or something like that. And they start blaming me as the GM. I'm not an adversarial GM. I'm not actively trying to kill the players but I am trying to stress challenge and that death can happen. But so many people watch Critical Role and just see RPGs as "a collaborative storytelling exercise" where they are the stars and constantly need "super awesome" moments where they do "super awesome" things. In an RPG what happens is the story evolves from what the players do. But so many of these people want to force their story onto the game and have it go exactly like they want in their heads.

A big problem here is that having your character die in an act of heroic self-sacrifice which saves everyone else IS a "super awesome" moment where they did "super awesome" things. The dipshits just don't understand that.

How often does it actually go down like that, though? Usually when a PC dies is cuz of a bad roll, or a lucky roll from the enemy. There's nothing heroic about it, just random roll of the dice. And the next most common way of dying in a TTRPG is a result of poor player decisions. Good, but again, not heroic acts.

Sure, there's a certain amount of wish fulfilment. But if it's all without risk, including death of the PC, it's hollow and pointless.

As far as dying from acts of stupidity or pure accidents (poor dice rolling), oh well, suck it up buttercup. Roll up a new one.