Quote from: KingCheops;1006793I think you may have been trying to pound a round peg into a square hole.  Monks can do a TON of stuff that Rogues can't do some of which makes them far more mobile.  You can run on liquids and vertical surfaces at 9th level for crying out loud.  You get Ki equal to your level and it refreshes on a short rest -- that's limited but not severely so.  From 5th level on you can make 4 attacks without spending Ki and by then you should know when a fight calls for Ki and when it doesn't.

Furthermore Open Hand Technique lets you remove an enemy's reactions for a turn while using Flurry.  There's no save or anything so this is 100% reliable.  You can move 20', lay the smack down for 1 Ki, and then move 20' away without any fear of reprisal from that enemy.  Even funnier you could attack up to 4 different (6 at 5th level) enemies with this and make them all lose their reactions and just run away.  Weak enemies like Kobolds?  Charge in and blow 4 or 6 of them 15' away like a minion explosion.

Rogues can't shrug off frightened or charmed, aren't immune to disease and poison, can't speak every language, and get a free heal every long rest.

Most of the problems people have with classes in 5e is that they wrote the wrong class on their character sheet.

Okay, this is really, really incorrect.

Just to get it out of the way, the character didn't make it past 6th level, so I never got to see any of the higher-level abilities. More importantly, your interpretation of Monk attacks is wrong. At 5th level, the Monk gets 3 attacks without spending ki and 4 when doing a Flurry of Blows. Also, the Open Hand techniques from 3rd level only apply to the two attacks from the Flurry of Blows; you don't get to apply those effects to the attack(s) you make when you take the Attack action.

I do agree that negating reactions is probably the best thing an Open Hand Monk can do in a lot of situations, and I even said before that I was surprised at how much I ended up using that.

Ah okay thanks.  Read it on DnD Beyond more closely this time and saw my mistake.

Quote from: Brand55;1006844the character didn't make it past 6th level

Out of curiosity did your DM tend to throw a couple of hard enemies at you or a bunch of minions?  Did you find that each of the different character types (Rogue, Warlock, Monk) handled these situations differently?  Also when playing your Monk what was the make up of the rest of the party?

The monks I've seen in game do pretty well and I wonder if it is some combination of one of those 2 things that is causing the disconnect.

Quote from: KingCheops;1006865Also when playing your Monk what was the make up of the rest of the party?.

Don't know about monks, since I haven't seen them, but I've definitely seen some interesting combinations based on the characters at the table.  We get a lot of changes like that in both the groups I GM, because we are nearly always missing a player or three, and not the same ones every time either.  Some are obvious, such as the rogue doing so much better with a heavily armored ally.  A less obvious one is a totem barbarian paired with an eldritch fighter dual wielding and using the sentinel feat.  The pair of them are ginzu knives against a single big target.  Put them up against a tough crowd, the sorcerer comes out with twinned haste on them--everyone else might as well stand back and watch.

Quote from: KingCheops;1006865Out of curiosity did your DM tend to throw a couple of hard enemies at you or a bunch of minions?  Did you find that each of the different character types (Rogue, Warlock, Monk) handled these situations differently?  Also when playing your Monk what was the make up of the rest of the party?

The monks I've seen in game do pretty well and I wonder if it is some combination of one of those 2 things that is causing the disconnect.

We did one or two intro adventures starting at 1st level that were mostly minions with a final boss, then we transitioned to Ravenloft and the difficulty ramped up drastically. That's where I saw the Monk's effectiveness plummet the most. I went from full health to dying on several occasions from a single set of enemy attacks. I had about 2 levels where I had to rely heavily on a set of +1 darts for a lot of fights since most things we fought laughed off non-magical attacks. And many of those same enemies had ways to move around (typically enhanced speed, flight, or magic) that meant my +15/20 movement wasn't enough to get me out of range, so I'd often have to choose between adding offensive punch and going defensive to not be taken down too early.

I expect a game with lots of weaker enemies would see the Monk do better, but the class suffers against tough competition because of its relatively mediocre defenses/HP and use of saving throws for its stronger effects. That was my experience, anyway.

The party makeup varied a little bit. For the most part while I played my Monk we also had a Fighter, Druid (later Barbarian), Ranger, Sorcerer, and Rogue. The Fighter and Rogue did immense damage so usually were early targets, though the Rogue was pretty good at keeping his distance to fight at range with the Ranger. The Sorcerer had some tricks and could do pretty good damage, too. The Druid did great at both damage and tanking in the early levels, and when she died her Barbarian filled much the same role. My Monk ended up bouncing around the battlefield, trying to dish out damage where possible and provide help as needed whenever things started going bad.

Thanks! Good to know about those difficulties the Monk had in Curse of Strahd.  I'd love to run it at some point and it sounds like I should steer people away from the Monk.

That's a party that's very strong in combat.  A Batman Wizard may have almost been more useful or a Cleric of any flavor.

Batman wisard?

Quote from: Headless;1007026Batman wisard?

Huge utility belt with tools for basically every situation.  Like Batman.

Ok.  Cool.  

How do you build one.  Since this is a thread about the mechanics of building cool charcter conceps in 5th ed.

Quote from: Headless;1007037Ok.  Cool.  

How do you build one.  Since this is a thread about the mechanics of building cool charcter conceps in 5th ed.

Pretty much the same way you would have built one in any previous edition.  The difference would be in the selection of School.  If you're going for utility I'd probably avoid Evocation and Abjuration and instead go for Divination (for the Portent dice) or Conjuration (for Minor Conjuration).

I've never built Batman in any system.  Its just a straight wisard with a crafting feat?  And spends all his/her money one 'useful' magic items and potions?

Quote from: Brand55;1006844OAt 5th level, the Monk gets 3 attacks without spending ki

It two attack plus one more as a bonus action only if he fighting unarmed or using a monk weapon. Sometimes that bonus action is needed to do other things. And if you do spend a Ki point you get to substitute two unarmed attacks for a total of four possible attack in a single round at 5th level.

Since the bonus action can be used to do other useful things it become a call based on the situation. If the players manipulate things so that they are always fighting on the ground of their choosing then what they pick is going to seem way more overpowering.

For example for the last dozen sessions or so, the players have been riding roughshod over their opposition in my current Majestic Wilderlands campaign. When they did attract the attention of potential serious opposition their unknowing choices led them away from any potential confrontation. That is until last session when they finally returned to their base at their home city.

There they met a guy named the Legate who totally turned the tables on them by enchanting (with selective use of charm and suggestion spells) the player's hirelings so that they would kill themselves if anything happened. Moreso he wasn't there at the middle but a few dozen yards a way using an illusion spell and clairaudience to listen in. (The players didn't figure that out until later).

Luckily he all he was there to do was talk and to establish dominance. One of the players is my setting version of a Cambion (Viridians), and there only two dozen left in the setting. The Legate is working for an demonic ruled realm that a handful of surviving Viridians have established and looking to recruit the player and the party to their cause.

What shook the players was how vulnerable they were despite being loaded with wands, potions, and scrolls. Especially compared to what was happening for the last couple of sessions where it seemed they could do no wrong.

When I ran D&D 5e in the previous campaign it was the same deal. If the players were smart, in control of the situation, and worked together then their combined abilities were that good. But the moment circumstances changed or their opposition was able to prepare, then it became a knock down drag out fight with the result being uncertain.

The key thing to remember is that whatever the players can do, the inhabitants of the setting can do. And they were probably doing it for a lot longer than the PCs have.

Quote from: Headless;1007046I've never built Batman in any system.  Its just a straight wisard with a crafting feat?  And spends all his/her money one 'useful' magic items and potions?

In 3e it was. In 5e, it has more to do with spell selection and maybe what magic items to try to get. It's a broad concept that pretty much means, "character whose player chose to play a wizard for access to fly, knock, rope trick, etc., instead of fireball."

Ahh.  I might have played one of those then.  It was 3.5 mystic thurge?  The prestige class that let you gain caster levels in cleric and wizard at the same time.  But 3 or 4 levels lower.  He was a halfling that hung around the edges and tried to be non-threatening and useful.  It was a high level game so he started at 10.

Quote from: Headless;1007037Ok.  Cool.  

How do you build one.  Since this is a thread about the mechanics of building cool charcter conceps in 5th ed.

From personal experience: 18's in all stats, part Monk (open palm), part artificer, all badass