Quote from: Dumarest;1006579Doesn't anyone else giggle a little bit when they read the names of these exotic classes? Or at least throw up a little bit in their mouth?

No, because the names of mechanical widgets have no bearing on the nature of the character in the game world.  The same way that I didn't get too hung up on fighter, magic user, cleric, and thief--all misleading names in some contexts.

Quote from: KingCheops;1006574Hmmm...just reading Arcana Cleric on DnD Beyond and I'm mildly disappointed they can't cast Ritual versions of Wizard spells as a feature.  I guess that's probably why I stayed away from it.

Hmm, they get Detect Magic as a domain spell, and that can surely be cast as a ritual, but yes, otherwise I don't think so unless you take the Ritual Caster feat.

Quote from: Dumarest;1006579Doesn't anyone else giggle a little bit when they read the names of these exotic classes? Or at least throw up a little bit in their mouth?

Nobody forced you to click on this thread or post here.  Virtue signalling and pearl clutching is for Pundit's forum or TBP.

Quote from: SP23;1006585Hmm, they get Detect Magic as a domain spell, and that can surely be cast as a ritual, but yes, otherwise I don't think so unless you take the Ritual Caster feat.

Yeah.  That's my take as well.

Quote from: KingCheops;1006586Nobody forced you to click on this thread or post here.  Virtue signalling and pearl clutching is for Pundit's forum or TBP.

S'mon specifically was worried about drive by sniping in 5E Threads, and fucking Dumarest read as much in Pundit's forum and decided to come here and do it anyways.

I get the feeling if your not playing B/X or LBB Traveller he thinks it's fucking stupid and can't wait to inform you of said "fact". Also, apparently he's been totally out of the loop when it comes to gaming since the mid-80's, got to spread that ignorance, amiright??

Quote from: KingCheops;1006574Hmmm...just reading Arcana Cleric on DnD Beyond and I'm mildly disappointed they can't cast Ritual versions of Wizard spells as a feature.  I guess that's probably why I stayed away from it.

True. There's a feat for that, but you're right. The arcana cleric can't decide how it wants to be a 'cleric of magic' -- it gets some iconic but not role-changing spells (we get it, magic missile is a known wizard spell, but clerics already have ranged attack spells), it gets to choose some wizard cantrips, but people almost invariably choose the combat ones, not thematically wizard ones like prestidigitation (minor illusion being an exception, because who doesn't love that?), it gets the arcana skill, but skills aren't class specific. It's still fun to play, but it just doesn't really know what it wants to be.

Quote from: SP23;1006591S'mon specifically was worried about drive by sniping in 5E Threads, and fucking Dumarest read as much in Pundit's forum and decided to come here and do it anyways.

I get the feeling if your not playing B/X or LBB Traveller he thinks it's fucking stupid and can't wait to inform you of said "fact". Also, apparently he's been totally out of the loop when it comes to gaming since the mid-80's, got to spread that ignorance, amiright??

Dumarest has been nothing if not consistent. When he first came here, he proudly smiley-faced after stating that he didn't even know what was (which we were supposed to be impressed by, for some reason, what's so impressive about ignorance?). It's a schtick, at least as much as it is virtue signaling (although it is clearly that as well). We get it. No, we're not impressed, but I also don't understand why people are still upset by it.

Quote from: Dumarest;1006579Doesn't anyone else giggle a little bit when they read the names of these exotic classes? Or at least throw up a little bit in their mouth?

Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any of these terms or concepts that are specifically more ridiculous, either conceptually or in their nomenclature, than an equivalent early D&D-ism? I'm thinking of things like studded leather, hydras with legs instead of a snake tail, as Batman mentions the level titles that one advances through (despite no career ever passing through all those roles), "name level," alignment languages, magic-hating dwarves, the Holmes attack rates for daggers being 4x as fast as polearms, with no offsetting disadvantage, subterranean dark-skinned elves, or whatever else we could come up with. Is there something in the modern editions (and you can even define where that cutoff is, so long as you spell it out) that is just that much more giggle/vomit-worthy?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1006606True. There's a feat for that, but you're right. The arcana cleric can't decide how it wants to be a 'cleric of magic' -- it gets some iconic but not role-changing spells (we get it, magic missile is a known wizard spell, but clerics already have ranged attack spells), it gets to choose some wizard cantrips, but people almost invariably choose the combat ones, not thematically wizard ones like prestidigitation (minor illusion being an exception, because who doesn't love that?), it gets the arcana skill, but skills aren't class specific. It's still fun to play, but it just doesn't really know what it wants to be.

Yeah looking at it I'd almost rather go Wizard and take the Acolyte background and the Magic Initiate feat to simulate some Cleric stuff.  You lose the healing stuff but that's not likely why you want to play the Arcane Cleric anyway.

Quote from: Dumarest;1006579Doesn't anyone else giggle a little bit when they read the names of these exotic classes? Or at least throw up a little bit in their mouth?

Don't be a dick.

The 2 biggest reasons to take Arcana Cleric is that you get to add your casting stat to damage cantrips at level 8, and this will most likely include 2 wizard cantrips. In addition you are not stuck with Sacred Flame being your only ranged attack cantrip. Generally attack roll cantrips are better than save cantrips. So, they are the best pure cleric blaster. Way better than a Light Cleric.

It is also the best Shillelagh build. It requires a feat (Magic Initiate: Druid), but it quickly outpaces both Land Druids & Nature Clerics for being effective in melee.

If you are in a campaign with lots of fey, celestials, fiends, etc.... they are even better as they can turn/banish them.

Quote from: SP23;1006611It is also the best Shillelagh build. It requires a feat (Magic Initiate: Druid), but it quickly outpaces both Druids & Nature Clerics for being effective in melee.

There is definitely this build. It has been explored to the point of completion I feel (at least on boards in white room analysis). I feel that it might be a suitable replacement for the Life cleric 1/warlock x-1 build people otherwise might use for a healer in an otherwise short-rest-recharge party. But as the 'cleric that is as good a melee choice as a melee class'-type thing that I think people want it to be, it just takes so much investment, takes so long to come to complete fruition, and just isn't that much better than other options (like a traditional strength-and-wisdom war cleric for melee), that it is more of a rabbit hole than an actual cheesy build.

Moon Druid grapper.  With the bar brawler feat and athleticism.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1006614There is definitely this build. It has been explored to the point of completion I feel (at least on boards in white room analysis). I feel that it might be a suitable replacement for the Life cleric 1/warlock x-1 build people otherwise might use for a healer in an otherwise short-rest-recharge party. But as the 'cleric that is as good a melee choice as a melee class'-type thing that I think people want it to be, it just takes so much investment, takes so long to come to complete fruition, and just isn't that much better than other options (like a traditional strength-and-wisdom war cleric for melee), that it is more of a rabbit hole than an actual cheesy build.

Sure it doesn't get awesome till level 4 then really good at 8, but it's effective right out of the gate at level 1. I think the big add it that you can dump STR and have decent HP instead.

I don't think this build should be up on the front line with the melee classes, but when inevitably you end up in melee, you can rock it just as well as a Eldritch Knight or a Bladesinger.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1006606Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any of these terms or concepts that are specifically more ridiculous, either conceptually or in their nomenclature, than an equivalent early D&D-ism? I'm thinking of things like studded leather, hydras with legs instead of a snake tail, as Batman mentions the level titles that one advances through (despite no career ever passing through all those roles), "name level," alignment languages, magic-hating dwarves, the Holmes attack rates for daggers being 4x as fast as polearms, with no offsetting disadvantage, subterranean dark-skinned elves, or whatever else we could come up with. Is there something in the modern editions (and you can even define where that cutoff is, so long as you spell it out) that is just that much more giggle/vomit-worthy?

Maybe in another thread?

Quote from: S'mon;1006179I noticed running & playing 5e, comparing it to the combat roles of 4e, that the non-casters tend to split into squishy high damage 'strikers' and (one) very tough 'defender' class. In contrast to 4e, IME the strikers are the Fighter (Action Surge) & Paladin (Smite), the defender is the Barbarian, definitely my favourite 5e class, with its Rage damage resistance. I'm not sure how Rogue & Monk fit in though - Rogue seems like a Striker with its sneak attack, I guess Monk is a bit like a 4e Controller, it seems their main ability is to lockdown targets with stunning fists.

If you play 5e do you have a preferred class? What's cool about it?

I am having a ball with my sumo barbarian who likes to smother his foes in great bear hugs.

Quote from: S'mon;1006247I like the Warlock, but he seems to spend most of his time with only 2 spells per short rest which tends to feel a bit underwhelming when the Druid gets  2 wildshapes per SR with full casting on top.

One 5e class I've not seen much of at all is the Sorcerer - it seems like Bard just does the same thing better, not even counting Wizard?

The Warlock doesn't rely on their spells as much as other spell casting classes, because they have things like Invocations and/or Rituals along with some other stuff to get by with. They are quite versatile really, depending on your choices, but tend to do well sneaking about and doing quite nasty damage in different circumstances too. A lot of the appeal is thematic, though, admittedly.  

The Sorcerer was caught in between different minds, although the Dragon-Sorcerers can be quite good, a bit tougher in HP and AC, while the meta magic feats can allow them to cast additional spells as a bonus - e.g. two fireballs in a round.