Quote from: Brad;761032You're trying to shoehorn reality into an abstract concept. Sort of like explaining wounds when using hitpoints...just accept it's a game and be done with it.

You are of course, entitled to your opinion, and entitled to accept anything you like in an rpg.

Some degree of realism is desirable. For example, I would object to a quarterstaff doing more damage than a greataxe.

Armor negating dexterity is equally stupid to me.

That seems like alot of spells for the Cleric...at 5th level they have 4 cantrips and 9 free spells prepared with 6 total domain spells on top. Not even figuring in Channel Divinity and Preserve Life or Turn Undead. That isn't very simple to me.

At 20th level that might be 8 cantrips (no idea if it would be possible to actually pick up cantrips in books like a wizard but that's unlikely), 25 free spells and 18 domain spells with overchannelling and who knows about Channel Divinity or Preserve Life or if something else unlocks? Can't wait to see the advanced versions. Wow!

Quote from: Bill;760965I miss the old dnd cleric that got spells at level 2

But I am hoping all 5E clerics are not healing fountains and Undead turners.

I want clerics that use spells appropriate to their god.

Once I've had Hackmaster Clerics, and RuneQuest cults, I can't go back to generic clerics or even the whole domains thing.  I could play it, sure, but to run it, I'd be in there chopping up spell lists and powers to make clerics truly reflect the god.

Quote from: Marleycat;761060That seems like alot of spells for the Cleric...at 5th level they have 4 cantrips and 9 free spells prepared with 6 total domain spells on top. Not even figuring in Channel Divinity and Preserve Life or Turn Undead. That isn't very simple to me.

At 20th level that might be 8 cantrips (no idea if it would be possible to actually pick up cantrips in books like a wizard but that's unlikely), 25 free spells and 18 domain spells with overchannelling and who knows about Channel Divinity or Preserve Life or if something else unlocks? Can't wait to see the advanced versions. Wow!

I'm not worried about how many spells a cleric can prepare (as I've mentioned I've houseruled clerics a long time ago to just pray for the one they want then and there).  I'd only be worried about how many they can actually cast.  That's the important part.  Clerics are somewhat similar to sorcerers and divine souls in that spells known doesn't impact how many you can cast.  I actually almost prefer it that way.

Quote from: Bill;760965I miss the old dnd cleric that got spells at level 2

But I am hoping all 5E clerics are not healing fountains and Undead turners.

I want clerics that use spells appropriate to their god.

From what I understand the general spell list for clerics is pretty short and it's all in the domain spells, and the class features like your Channel Divinity perk and whatnot really. They didn't go as far as Hackmaster with wholly independent spell lists but it's definitely leaning that way

Of course the notion that Plate Armor and most other forms of armor caps your dexterity is bullshit anyway in terms of reality.

What armor is fatiguing, you are wearing x lbs of gear and when you reach the limits of your endurance and strength you will tire. Which will degrade your combat effectiveness.

But if you have the endurance and strength you can do backflips.

The key thing to remember armor is fitted. That is the pieces that make up a suite are properly sized and strapped so that does not hinder the wearer. And it not rocket science everybody back to the Ancient times knew this and built in straps, hinges and took measurements with knotted strings.

Again to clear wearing heavy armor had it consequences but being a clumsy oaf was not one of them.

OD&D and AD&D 1st had it right in applying the full DEX modifier to AC. 3e introduction of DEX caps was a boneheaded addition in the light of reality. Done because "balanced" the wearing of heavy armor.

If you wanted to make more "balanced' the better D&Dish way in keeping with reality would to impose a strength minimum on various types of armor. Keeping in mine that the strength requirement for chain and scale would be HIGHER than plate because of the fact having all the weight of your torso armor hanging off your shoulders was vastly more tiring than wearing a fitted breastplate.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;761063I'm not worried about how many spells a cleric can prepare (as I've mentioned I've houseruled clerics a long time ago to just pray for the one they want then and there).  I'd only be worried about how many they can actually cast.  That's the important part.  Clerics are somewhat similar to sorcerers and divine souls in that spells known doesn't impact how many you can cast.  I actually almost prefer it that way.

They can cast up to 19 spells at 20th level (not counting possible magic items that would add slots or whatever of course). They just have a really big amount prepared. It's just not something I exactly expected but I suppose it's alright considering how limited their spell list is compared to a wizard. Because it's not the same as 3e where there was alot of shared spell lists going on between the divine and arcane magic users respectively.

Quote from: Marleycat;761064From what I understand the general spell list for clerics is pretty short and it's all in the domain spells, and the class features like your Channel Divinity perk and whatnot really. They didn't go as far as Hackmaster with wholly independent spell lists but it's definitely leaning that way

If Turn undead is selectable, and not mandatory, I will be happy.

All clerics healing I can live with, although I don't like it.

Quote from: Marleycat;761069They can cast up to 19 spells at 20th level (not counting possible magic items that would add slots or whatever of course). They just have a really big amount prepared.

Compared to my favored edition of AD&D?  That's not a lot.  Well, assuming I played PCs at 20th level anyway.  But I'm perfectly OK with "less spells you can cast, but you can choose from a larger pool of available spells."  It offers a lot more flexibility rather than hoping you memorized the right ones.

I'm sure everyone who has played a caster in D&D has run into situations where some spells you prepared you never got around to using because the situation never called for it.

"What do you mean you don't have any more cure light wound spells?  You only cast one so far?"
"Well, I prepp'd this other spell instead.  How was I supposed to know I'd never need it?"

Quote from: Bill;761070If Turn undead is selectable, and not mandatory, I will be happy.

All clerics healing I can live with, although I don't like it.

Don't know about the turn undead deal, but I bet there will be some kind of option or maybe you'd have to do like 3e? Kind of split it, turn or be my buddy type of deal.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;761072Compared to my favored edition of AD&D?  That's not a lot.  Well, assuming I played PCs at 20th level anyway.  But I'm perfectly OK with "less spells you can cast, but you can choose from a larger pool of available spells."  It offers a lot more flexibility rather than hoping you memorized the right ones.

I'm sure everyone who has played a caster in D&D has run into situations where some spells you prepared you never got around to using because the situation never called for it.

"What do you mean you don't have any more cure light wound spells?  You only cast one so far?"
"Well, I prepp'd this other spell instead.  How was I supposed to know I'd never need it?"

Yeah, when I first looked at it I was going WTF!!! But as I thought about it and checked out some of the other forum discussions I am fine with it. It will only bother me if they don't actually do something for the wizard's amount of prepared spells. Sorry, but not even 25 spells is enough. They really should have a school spell per level auto prepared like a cleric's domain spells.

Quote from: Bill;761049You are of course, entitled to your opinion, and entitled to accept anything you like in an rpg.

Some degree of realism is desirable. For example, I would object to a quarterstaff doing more damage than a greataxe.

Armor negating dexterity is equally stupid to me.

Realism...in D&D. Okay. D&D combat has always been about playability over verisimilitude. To address your specific example, a quarterstaff wielded by Conan would probably hurt more than a greataxe wielded by Frodo Baggins. A game like Tunnels and Trolls specifically addresses this with a minimum strength required to effectively use weapons. D&D does not really care and gives a flat damage rating. To say a greataxe > quarterstaff in all situations isn't realistic. Do I care? Not really, it is in fact just a game.

Quote from: Brad;761082Realism...in D&D. Okay. D&D combat has always been about playability over verisimilitude. To address your specific example, a quarterstaff wielded by Conan would probably hurt more than a greataxe wielded by Frodo Baggins. A game like Tunnels and Trolls specifically addresses this with a minimum strength required to effectively use weapons. D&D does not really care and gives a flat damage rating. To say a greataxe > quarterstaff in all situations isn't realistic. Do I care? Not really, it is in fact just a game.

What I said, was 'some degree of realism is desirable'. I assume you agree with that statement.

Your example of staff and axe has nothing to do with what I was talking about.
I never said strong people do the same damage as weak people with the same weapon.
I did not say great axes and staves do the same damage. In fact, its perplexing how you came to that conclusion.

You did not address my specific example at all.

From MerricB....he says he hasn't gone through the ability score modifiers yet...

QuoteNow that we have the Cleric’s character sheet, let’s have a look at what has changed from the last of the playtest documents (October 2013)!

Preserve Life: This was called Restore Health in the playtest. The restriction barring it from being used on constructs or undead has been removed, and the range has been increased from 25 ft. to 30 ft.

Turn Undead: It now works on undead up to 30 feet away rather than 25 feet away. The DC of the check has been reduced (now 8 + proficiency bonus + wisdom modifier rather than 10 + proficiency bonus + wisdom modifier). Turned creatures may Dodge if they can’t move further away. The destruction of undead is handled differently: rather than a hit point comparison, at 5th level you instantly destroy undead of challenge rating ½ or less. (This probably increases as levels are gained).

Dash: A new action, possibly replacing Hustle. I suspect it allows you to move again in a turn.

Domain Spells: At 5th level, the Life Domain no longer gives access to Prayer as a domain spell; instead it gives access to revivify, one of the new spells that wasn’t in the playtest.

Prepared Spells: In the playtest, a cleric prepared 1+cleric level spells each day. The starter set cleric prepares their Wisdom modifier + cleric level spells each day. (Note the jump in spells/day at 4th level, when the cleric’s Wisdom increases).

Cantrips: The playtest gave 3 cantrips per day, which never changed. The starter set cleric gains a new cantrip at 4th level – I suspect the number of cantrips a character has is equal to their spellcasting modifier.

Darkvision: The playtest had darkvision allowing characters to see in darkness as dim light. The starter set retains that, but also allows characters to see in dim light as if it were bright light.

Stonecunning: Dwarves now add double their proficiency bonus to the Intelligence (History) checks to determine the origin of stonework rather than just their proficiency bonus. They can now become lost underground.

Dwarven Toughness: No longer adds one to the hit points regained by rolling Hit Dice during a rest.

Skills: The soldier background no longer gives the Survival skill. How skill and proficiency acquisition is handled is uncertain at this point.

Proficiencies: A soldier gained Gaming Set, Mounts (Land) and Vehicles (Land) in the playtest. The starter set cleric does not gain Mounts (Land), and Gaming Set has become Playing Cards. The cleric’s free Healing Kit proficiency has been removed, but the character has Mason’s Tools as a proficiency, possibly due to a new dwarven racial feature.

New Personality Traits, Ideals, Bonds and Flaws.

Challenge Rating: Monsters are ranked by Challenge Ratings. There are Challenge Rating ½ monsters.

Enjoy!

Edit: He also said for humans it's +1 to every stat but the others get +2/+1 to two specific stats. Also something about humans will have other choices beyond the stat bumps but not sure if that would been seen in BASIC or if its going to happen in the Advanced game. I suppose we will know for sure soon enough.

Quote from: CRKrueger;761061Once I've had Hackmaster Clerics, and RuneQuest cults, I can't go back to generic clerics or even the whole domains thing.  I could play it, sure, but to run it, I'd be in there chopping up spell lists and powers to make clerics truly reflect the god.

I'm a fan of getting rid of the Cleric class and putting divine spellcasters under the umbrella of "Magic-User."  Want to wear armor and cast spells?  Multi-class.

Though yet again I can see this is too big a tradition to change for D&D.