Quote from: Sacrosanct;799327Yep.  The first clue I knew they were on the right path is when all the charop crowd had tissy fits because many of the "good" class abilities you didn't get until level 3 or so.

Don't misunderstand me I would multiclass anytime but it's not the optimal choice if you're looking for DPR or some other CharOP "I win button" but it does allow for fun characters like David Eddings "Sparhawk" or a multitude of other concepts I prefer even though they aren't "optimal".

Doublemint.

Quote from: snooggums;799316Someone else said that, but with Warlocks getting access to some powerful spells like Fireball and such at mid to high levels it is likely that they will be casting things other than Eldritch Blast as their combat openers.

For example, with 5th level spell slots at level 9 a Warlock can roll to attack 1d10+Cha to two creatures or just do an AoE Fireball for 10d6. They only have two of those spell slots, but if they do the normal two short rests per day they could do 6 fireballs across fights.

While that could be common, I don't think it is that effective and wouldn't care of a player did it at my table because it doesn't matter what build monkeys do.

See I would agree with that so my question is why does the cantrip need to scale in damage if they already have other options (not just warlock all casters)

And charop monkeys charoping only matters because it exposes expoilts /breaks in the game that I want to be aware of before they happen not when my players are bitching cos Dave's paladin/warlock/rogue cross-build-do-dah can deal a trillion points of damage a round and is immune to all damage

Quote from: jibbajibba;799335See I would agree with that so my question is why does the cantrip need to scale in damage if they already have other options (not just warlock all casters)

And charop monkeys charoping only matters because it exposes expoilts /breaks in the game that I want to be aware of before they happen not when my players are bitching cos Dave's paladin/warlock/rogue cross-build-do-dah can deal a trillion points of damage a round and is immune to all damage

Because no matter what you do you run out of spell slots and the majority hate "I shoot them with my crossbow". They, like myself signed up to use magic not some crap weapon used by a common person or a torch and oil flask, or to skulk around while getting lucky not to die. Most cantrips are multipurpose but it's ignorant not to have a trusty offensive weapon when you have nothing else given Elves and other non-humans aren't usually ubiquitous.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799335See I would agree with that so my question is why does the cantrip need to scale in damage if they already have other options (not just warlock all casters)

Because then they get to choose in some situations to use their less optimal but not completely worthless cantrip when conserving their better spells for later.

Also, because it is fun to have a pew pew spell that can be used any time.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799335And charop monkeys charoping only matters because it exposes expoilts /breaks in the game that I want to be aware of before they happen not when my players are bitching cos Dave's paladin/warlock/rogue cross-build-do-dah can deal a trillion points of damage a round and is immune to all damage

Sounds like a mix of crybabies and tools if classes not being the same is a source of conflict in a group. A good group of players are able to talk about those things and work out how the group wants to play instead of bitching.

A warlock gets 4 cantrips/3 first level, 2 second level, 2 third level, 2 fourth level and 6 spells of whatever level between 1-5(15 choices)  usable in 4 spell slots refreshed after a short rest  with 1 spell per level 6-9 that are daily. (Typically they would know 4/3/3/3/2 1st-5th level spells and 1/1/1/1 6th-9th level spells outside the 4 spell slots they have to mix and match the 15 lower level spells). You will run out of spell slots unless you use cantrips whenever possible  because a typical game has 1-2 short rests in 24 hours and it especially gets worse when you have access to the higher level Invocation choices. And only at 20th level does the option for refreshing your 1st-5th slots become available 1 time in 24 hours (long rest).

Im 5th level now, Blade(Shield) Pact.

I have three cantrips, one of which is indeed Eldrich Blast, the other being Blade Ward and just got Mage Hand. For me EB is a good backup when something is out of melee range. Blade Ward is my go-to though as that resistance to all melee type damage is great!

I can cast all of TWO spells and I can never count on ever getting a chance to short rest during a session. Arms of Hadar, Unseen Servant, Armor of Agathys, Cloud of Daggers(discs in this case), Hold Person, and Clairvoyance.

I have three Invocations, one of which is Thirsting Blade(Shield) which just acquired. The others being Fiendish Vigor and Beguiling Presence.

Feats being the aformentioned Shield Master (with Next tweak) and Charger.

I have so far used EB rarely as I am usually in the thick of combat wacking people with a shield. Moreso now. It certainly isnt "optimal" but it sure as hell is fun!

Jan though is rapidly catching up with the Half Orc archer mentioned elsewhere. One more level and she has Sharpshooter and that will be a big jump in her damage. Assuming she hits anything. Her plan is to thereafter pour subsequent stat ups into Dexterity first. She opted for Battle Master as shes liking the idea of being able to play "Green Ork-o" with the various maneuvers.

Quote from: Omega;799368Im 5th level now, Blade(Shield) Pact.

I have three cantrips, one of which is indeed Eldrich Blast, the other being Blade Ward and just got Mage Hand. For me EB is a good backup when something is out of melee range. Blade Ward is my go-to though as that resistance to all melee type damage is great!

I can cast all of TWO spells and I can never count on ever getting a chance to short rest during a session. Arms of Hadar, Unseen Servant, Armor of Agathys, Cloud of Daggers(discs in this case), Hold Person, and Clairvoyance.

I have three Invocations, one of which is Thirsting Blade(Shield) which just acquired. The others being Fiendish Vigor and Beguiling Presence.

Feats being the aformentioned Shield Master (with Next tweak) and Charger.

I have so far used EB rarely as I am usually in the thick of combat wacking people with a shield. Moreso now. It certainly isnt "optimal" but it sure as hell is fun!

Jan though is rapidly catching up with the Half Orc archer mentioned elsewhere. One more level and she has Sharpshooter and that will be a big jump in her damage. Assuming she hits anything. Her plan is to thereafter pour subsequent stat ups into Dexterity first. She opted for Battle Master as shes liking the idea of being able to play "Green Ork-o" with the various maneuvers.

So since you have the experience of it and have found that you rarely use EB do you think it needs to increase in damage as you increase levels? O rdo you think the Melee Warlock is simply an unusual variant option?

Quote from: snooggums;799342Because then they get to choose in some situations to use their less optimal but not completely worthless cantrip when conserving their better spells for later.

Also, because it is fun to have a pew pew spell that can be used any time.



Sounds like a mix of crybabies and tools if classes not being the same is a source of conflict in a group. A good group of players are able to talk about those things and work out how the group wants to play instead of bitching.

well to be fair to them they haven't gotten there yet and they may well be fine.
they don't want the classes to be the same quite the opposite from what I have observed so far they want the classes to be different. They want the archer to be best at continuous ongoing ranged combat, they want the paladin in armour to be best at absorbing lots of damage, they want the rogue to be best at sneaking and so on.
What has irked them a bit to this point has been the casters beign able to match the archer at range continuously with significant advantages (they were hiding in a cart planning to act as bait for a goblin ambush and the archer couldn't use his bow from the small space they had but the sorcerer could use firebolt, and the archer used 1/2 his arrows in one fight and 4 got broken/lost whereas the casters have no such concerns). Which is where this thread came from of course.

How the party wants to play is why I am here asking people is they have seen any issues and what steps they have made if any to tweak things. So far everyone seems supremely happy with no tweaks or alterations and everything is AWESOME!.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799374So since you have the experience of it and have found that you rarely use EB do you think it needs to increase in damage as you increase levels? O rdo you think the Melee Warlock is simply an unusual variant option?

They both have their quirks and bonuses as well as downsides. Its interesting that you can gear a character to either track pretty well too. With the right spells and evocations I've been doing pretty good in melee. I am never going to superceed a fighter type. But that is not the point. DPS and CharOp can go straight to Hell.

What I have not really looked at yet are the other two tracks, Chain and Tome.

I think Chain with the right spells and evocations would make a good scout and spy. Tome is the one I have looked at least.

Quote from: Omega;799386What I have not really looked at yet are the other two tracks, Chain and Tome.

I think Chain with the right spells and evocations would make a good scout and spy. Tome is the one I have looked at least.

One of my players is playing a chain warlock (a gnome fey-pact chain warlock to be precise) and we're all having lots of fun with him.

He's probably make a build monkey or char-opper weep because he's so rubbish in a fight (mostly through his spell and invocation choices, not because he's a chain warlock), but he's really great out of combat. His constantly-improved-invisibility flying familiar is incredibly useful for scouting and spying and his at-will spell-like abilities are very useful, so no-one feels that he's a "dead weight" due to his lack of combat ability.

Quote from: Omega;799386What I have not really looked at yet are the other two tracks, Chain and Tome.

I think Chain with the right spells and evocations would make a good scout and spy. Tome is the one I have looked at least.

I plan to get the Tome as soon as I hit level 3.

As the sole arcane caster in the party, the accompanying invocation will greatly enhance my versatility, with pew-pew spells in battle and utility spells done by rituals. It's also very sword&sorcery

Also, any two cantrips of any list are particularly handy for that character.
Spare the Dying will greatly help to keep her personal Retainers alive (who have had close calls already).
Vicious Mockery is plainly fitting for a nasty Dementlieuse noblewoman - and it can be used in melee without disadvantage, targets a different resistance (Wis save instead of AC) and can very effectively lock down the ability to counter-attack of a single opponent. It is an offensive cantrip that complements EB in specific circumstances, rather than to compete with it.

Shocking Grasp is another good cantrip for Tome Warlocks, as it allows them to do good damage and extricate themselves from melee easier.

Guidance may also be handy for out-of-combat use, if you have no cleric.

Resistance may also be handy if you know that you will deal with something that requires saving throws (like a gaze monster), and it is even handy if you have a cleric as it will help to harden another party member.

Thaumaturgy may be fun for role-playing purposes, if you really want to ramp up the brimstone stink and booming voice aspects 8-)

Quote from: jibbajibba;799374So since you have the experience of it and have found that you rarely use EB do you think it needs to increase in damage as you increase levels? O rdo you think the Melee Warlock is simply an unusual variant option?

He's describing Blade Pact which is very popular because it lets people run Jedi Knight concepts. But either way it's very melee based Book and Chain are ranged based ie. use Eldritch Blast because they only have access to simple weapons. And Chain types are better served taking scouting spells or any spells to compliment their familiar while Book types are all about getting rituals for the versitility plus the 3 extra cantrips off any class list. They're not as combat focused obviously. But they're good stopgap types like Bards depending on the party composition.