Quote from: Opaopajr;799174That's not what an AoE is in 5e, and you can split your move and attacks now.

Or perhaps you had a particular MMO analogy in mind where AoE meant multi-targeting instead of spreading nuke effect?
:idunno:

She said you can fire four bolts of 1d10+Cha(each) or one bolt of 4d10+Cha.  Since this thread is about DPS, the four 1d10+Cha bolts is preferable to the one 4d10+Cha bolt.

Quote from: Sommerjon;799184She said you can fire four bolts of 1d10+Cha(each) or one bolt of 4d10+Cha.  Since this thread is about DPS, the four 1d10+Cha bolts is preferable to the one 4d10+Cha bolt.

No what I mean is that like Magic Missle if you have multiple bolts/missiles you have the choice of using each bolt/missle on a single target or a single bolt/missle on seperate targets or any mix in between just like any fighter with multiple attacks but in either case you only get to add your CHA bonus ONE time unlike a physical weapon attack which gets to add that bonus each time because it's a seperate attack not target inside a single attack.

Eldritch Blast isn't an AoE attack like fireball for instance though it can multi-target. What I'm trying to point out is that the fighter has a more reliable DPR and higher per hit except in specific cases or where the magic type uses a spike damage knack (spell not cantrip). Though Warlocks are a bit different in that EB is their "thing" so it has to be better then the typical cantrip.

Quote from: Sommerjon;799184She said you can fire four bolts of 1d10+Cha(each) or one bolt of 4d10+Cha.  Since this thread is about DPS, the four 1d10+Cha bolts is preferable to the one 4d10+Cha bolt.

She's wrong though.

When a Warlock takes Agonizing Blast they get the extra damage on a hit.
When EB scales, the player makes a separate To Hit roll for each blast so the extra damage would be added to each D10 that hits whether they are shooting at one target or multiple targets.
There isn't a choice to roll a single time for multiple EB rays.

So it is 2x(1D10+Cha) if two rays of Eldrich Blast hit.
That is the same as a Fighter making two shooting attacks of 2x(1D8+Dex), although the Fighter gets Action Surges and can get better crit ranges, so I would expect a Fighter to average more damage most of the time after those are taken into account.

Quote from: snooggums;799203She's wrong though.

When a Warlock takes Agonizing Blast they get the extra damage on a hit.
When EB scales, the player makes a separate To Hit roll for each blast so the extra damage would be added to each D10 that hits whether they are shooting at one target or multiple targets.
There isn't a choice to roll a single time for multiple EB rays.

So it is 2x(1D10+Cha) if two rays of Eldrich Blast hit.
That is the same as a Fighter making two shooting attacks of 2x(1D8+Dex), although the Fighter gets Action Surges and can get better crit ranges, so I would expect a Fighter to average more damage most of the time after those are taken into account.

Yes, a Warlock can totally trick out EB by using multiple Invocations but it's a complete outlier in comparison to every other cantrip and how they work for every other class. It's the Warlock's schtick to use Eldritch Blast while it's a Sorcerer's deal to throw Fireball using metamagic to miss party members likely using the Elementalist feat to make it viable in any situation. While it's the Wizard's shtick to use concentration spells to modify the entire scenario.

The Warlock is intentionally built to spam EB as their primary offensive action whenever possible and even then they're only comparable not superior to the typical martial type in damage only, ignoring the lesser hitpoints, armor, number of feats and lack of certain class features a pure martial type has.

What's so hilarious is that we're talking about a class that no few tables ban outright and a cantrip only it has access to.

Quote from: Marleycat;799207What's so hilarious is that we're talking about a class that no few tables ban outright and a cantrip only it has access to.

Yes, it is hilarious that we are talking about an ability that is comparable to other classes while clearly not overpowered despite the OP shitting a brick because he is terrible at math and context.

Quote from: Sommerjon;799184She said you can fire four bolts of 1d10+Cha(each) or one bolt of 4d10+Cha.  Since this thread is about DPS, the four 1d10+Cha bolts is preferable to the one 4d10+Cha bolt.

Actually you cant merge the bolts into one attack. It distinctly says each bolt must make an attack roll no matter if you fire all of them at one or not.

Quote from: Omega;799258Actually you cant merge the bolts into one attack. It distinctly says each bolt must make an attack roll no matter if you fire all of them at one or not.

I never said differently I said it's possible to use multiple bolts on a single target each beam is a seperate attack roll but it's resolved as a single attack. As opposed to a fighter getting multiple attacks per round but only one attack roll per attack. What I did compare it to was Magic Missile because they have the same flexibility but MM is a spell because it doesn't require an attack roll while Eldritch Blast does hence the reason it's a cantrip because it can miss like any regular ranged attack.

Quote from: snooggums;799226Yes, it is hilarious that we are talking about an ability that is comparable to other classes while clearly not overpowered despite the OP shitting a brick because he is terrible at math and context.

Hold on I thought that cantrips were "something to keep the caster going once their spells were depleted" are we now sayign that for Warlocks the cantrip is actually their primary weapon which is why its comparable to say an archer's ranged damage at a similar level?

I predict that in a few months, when the build monkeys are done playing about, that taking 2 levels of Warlock in order to get Eldrich Blast with a charisma bonus to damage and probably the push back 10 feet effect as the other invocation becomes the norm for all "builds" based on Charisma and/or ranged based.

Quote from: Marleycat;799268I never said differently I said it's possible to use multiple bolts on a single target each beam is a seperate attack roll but it's resolved as a single attack. As opposed to a fighter getting multiple attacks per round but only one attack roll per attack. What I did compare it to was Magic Missile because they have the same flexibility but MM is a spell because it doesn't require an attack roll while Eldritch Blast does hence the reason it's a cantrip because it can miss like any regular ranged attack.

EB - each bolt is a seaparate attack separate roll, separate damge roll (with bonus). If you add the other invocations each hit will knock the target back ten feet etc etc
It's just like an archer firing 3 arrows.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799297Hold on I thought that cantrips were "something to keep the caster going once their spells were depleted" are we now sayign that for Warlocks the cantrip is actually their primary weapon which is why its comparable to say an archer's ranged damage at a similar level?

I predict that in a few months, when the build monkeys are done playing about, that taking 2 levels of Warlock in order to get Eldrich Blast with a charisma bonus to damage and probably the push back 10 feet effect as the other invocation becomes the norm for all "builds" based on Charisma and/or ranged based.

Yes Eldritch Blast is their primary attack option unless they're Blade Pact. Warlocks are different they are built on the AEDU model say you do level dip for 2 levels of Warlock that will give you 2 cantrips, 3(2 extra possible choices beyond the base list fixed by patron) 1st level spells 2 spell slots useable per short rest at 1st level and 2 Invocations. So yes you can get 2 of the 3 invocations specific to EB. In trade you lose a feat/stat bump or 2 spell levels or a 4th attack etc depending on what your base class is in exchange for the 2 floating slots. Useful? Yes but not overpowering. Also you do gain light armor and simple weapons as profiencencies. And those cantrips/spells key off CHA so it's best that your base class be Bard, Paladin or Sorcerer for optimal effect.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799297I predict that in a few months, when the build monkeys are done playing about, that taking 2 levels of Warlock in order to get Eldrich Blast with a charisma bonus to damage and probably the push back 10 feet effect as the other invocation becomes the norm for all "builds" based on Charisma and/or ranged based.

I have thought myself about combining Warlock with Oathbreaker Paladin or Eldritch Knight or Bard of Valor - and in the end, decided against it.

The loss of any Incarnums is bad for Warlocks, as is the loss of high-level slots for Bards. High-level slots are both extremely rare and extremely awesome in 5e.

A Paladin who falls behind in advancing his Lay-on-Hands pool and lacks the high-level abilities like Purity of Spirit or Supernatural Resistance (or gets them only shortly before the end of the campaign) definitively is lacking. Eldritch Knight demands 7 levels before its cantrip&blow ability gets unlocked - and free single blow with a melee weapon isn't really that impressive anymore at the time it comes online.

The extra armor isn't worth that much anyway, with mage armor at will only one invocation away.

Depending on party role and attribute combination, there could still be times where cases where the sacrifices could be worth multiclassing - for example, if you have another full-caster to handle the wishing and other heavy-duty spell stuff, so that losing Incarnums isn't that dramatic.

I really think they got multiclassing right this time. There are some very interesting combinations, but they typically only work if you have someone else in the party to cover what you give up - and even then, mixing&matching comes with a hefty price tag.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799299EB - each bolt is a seaparate attack separate roll, separate damge roll (with bonus). If you add the other invocations each hit will knock the target back ten feet etc etc
It's just like an archer firing 3 arrows.

Correct if you use 3 of 8 total invocations on it and are 4th or higher level pretty fair given the archer will catch up at 5th level while the Warlock is a one trick pony until 7th level completely dependent on EB instead of some seriously awesome invocations they could have chosen. Like mage armor at-will, Speak with Animals at-will, profiencency in deception and persuasion, darksight to 120 ft in ALL conditions but better, Detect Magic at-will, False Life with no slot use, familiar link with any willing humanoid, Disguise Self no slot use, Silent Image at-will, Bane with a spell slot recovered with a long rest. All choices at 1-4th level. Not counting the pact specific invocations available to a Book or Chain Pact warlock at those levels.

I won't list what invocations are available at 5th level and above if you don't trick out eldritch blast to the limit which takes at minimum for the warlock 5th level to trick out. With CHA damage, range and push.

Quote from: Skyrock;799305I really think they got multiclassing right this time. There are some very interesting combinations, but they typically only work if you have someone else in the party to cover what you give up - and even then, mixing&matching comes with a hefty price tag.

Agreed and the bonus is that it's driving the CharOP crowd insane.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799297Hold on I thought that cantrips were "something to keep the caster going once their spells were depleted" are we now sayign that for Warlocks the cantrip is actually their primary weapon which is why its comparable to say an archer's ranged damage at a similar level?

Someone else said that, but with Warlocks getting access to some powerful spells like Fireball and such at mid to high levels it is likely that they will be casting things other than Eldritch Blast as their combat openers.

For example, with 5th level spell slots at level 9 a Warlock can roll to attack 1d10+Cha to two creatures or just do an AoE Fireball for 10d6. They only have two of those spell slots, but if they do the normal two short rests per day they could do 6 fireballs across fights.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799297I predict that in a few months, when the build monkeys are done playing about, that taking 2 levels of Warlock in order to get Eldrich Blast with a charisma bonus to damage and probably the push back 10 feet effect as the other invocation becomes the norm for all "builds" based on Charisma and/or ranged based.

While that could be common, I don't think it is that effective and wouldn't care of a player did it at my table because it doesn't matter what build monkeys do.

Quote from: Marleycat;799315Agreed and the bonus is that it's driving the CharOP crowd insane.

Yep.  The first clue I knew they were on the right path is when all the charop crowd had tissy fits because many of the "good" class abilities you didn't get until level 3 or so.