Quote from: jibbajibba;799106Becuase it either stacks to 2d10, 3d10, 4d10 as they level or the number of attacks increases.

If I had designed the Cantrip they would have been 1d6 or 1d8 (comparable to arrows) plus effect (fire, cold etc) they would not have grown in damage or increased in number per round as you levelled.
There would be an option to Use spell slots to increase the range, effect or damage of a cantrip.

So in effect the simple magical effect to replace the low level caster having to throw stones thus maintaining flavour etc but it doesn't turn into a machine gun or a howitzer at Higher levels.  with an option to pour more of your magical power into it if you needed to but obviously at a cost.

My advice is to get a hobby knife and cut the damage-dealing cantrips out of your books as well as out of your friends' books. Wad the excised sections up and swallow them.

It's the only way to prevent the kind of egregious verisimilitude-slaying power gaming that a 1d10 at-will attack brings.

The only way.

Quote from: misterguignol;799108My advice is to get a hobby knife and cut the damage-dealing cantrips out of your books as well as out of your friends' books. Wad the excised sections up and swallow them.

It's the only way to prevent the kind of egregious verisimilitude-slaying power gaming that a 1d10 at-will attack brings.

The only way.

thanks that is a great and really useful idea your contribution to the discussion is noted.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799110thanks that is a great and really useful idea your contribution to the discussion is noted.

By all means, continue wringing your hands over this weighty issue and favoring us with your poorly-spelled and grammatically-nightmarish posts about the subject.

Quote from: misterguignol;799112By all means, continue wringing your hands over this weighty issue and favoring us with your poorly-spelled and grammatically-nightmarish posts about the subject.

You don't have to read it. Feel free to gouge out your eyes to prevent my vile prose leaping out of the internet and infecting you.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799115You don't have to read it. Feel free to gouge out your eyes to prevent my vile prose leaping out of the internet and infecting you.

Are you kidding? I'm hanging on your every post! I hope you do another take on ZOMG D&D HIT POINTS ARE NOT REALISTIC or maybe something about how "barbarian" should only ever be a background and never a character class.

PCs deal lots of damage in 5e.  The 6th level barbarian in my group is dishing out two attacks a round each dealing 2d6+8+2d6 (albeit in melee).  The sorcerer and wizard's 2d10 firebolt cantrips are nothing compared to the barbarian.

Quote from: Old One Eye;799127PCs deal lots of damage in 5e.  The 6th level barbarian in my group is dishing out two attacks a round each dealing 2d6+8+2d6 (albeit in melee).  The sorcerer and wizard's 2d10 firebolt cantrips are nothing compared to the barbarian.

Yeah, but Fire Bolt has that downside of lighting things on fire.

Wait...

Quote from: jibbajibba;799039Now I think the caster's cantrips here are comparible to the specialist fighter archer. I do agree the fighter can drop his bow and enter combat and be better here but the caster never needs to get near combat so its a moot suggestion.

D&D 5e combat is about attrition. How fast one side can wear down the hit points of the other side. Higher levels have more ways of doing damage under more conditions.

Cantrips comes up when the special abilities are expended. When the caster has used all of his big booms and left with a magical blaster as his only means of contributing.

So it is late in the combat and the warlock or wizard is down to using his cantrips.

If you notice the fighter has an consistent +2 bonus at the various levels. +10% more likely to hit with an arrow. Say both are fighting something with Armor class 15 at 11th level.

A fighter has  a 75% change of hitting needing a 6 or better
A warlock has a 65 chance of hitting.

A fighter has .75 x .75 x .75 = .4218 or a 42% of hitting with all three arrow attacks.

A warlock has a .65 x .65. x .65 = .2746 or 27% chance of hitting with all three eldritch blast.

When you multiply that over the number of round needed to wear down the bags of hit points that high level creatures possess the advantage goes to the champion fighter.

Cantrip are not the issue that you and others are making them out to be. Something that is demonstrated in the games I run with 5e. 5e is designed that no one character is optimal in all situation and every character can contribute during all phases of the game.

The best example is fighting undead. A cleric of life from the basic set turns undead hordes into just another set of monster. Without a cleric it be very hard to deal with undead creatures. But it can be done if the players are smart about their tactics. The group I ran nearly suffered a TPK when they ran into their first zombie horde. Something another group I ran with the exact same encounter didn't have any trouble with due to the fact they had two clerics.

However the second time the first group was able to handle the zombie and other undead a lot easier by using smarter tactics. It wasn't particularly fast but the party wasn't in danger of a TPK either.

And last you need to be cautious about extrapolating the experience of a single campaign to draw conclusion on the rules. Because 5e has options for combat it rewards tactical mastery of the rules. It may be that your group has come up with the right combination to counter what you typically do. It doesn't mean the rules are broken, then it could mean they are.

If the rules are broken, specifically cantrips are broken. Then what will happen is that no matter what combination of tactics, circumstances you throw at them. They always win by doing the same thing. If cantrips are broken it means that fighter will always be second best when all the damage is totaled.

So far I have not seen that. And given the math I laid out at the beginning of the post I don't see that as likely. Given time, the fighters will be one at the top of the help as far as the amount of damage dealt. In short term it will be the caster with their ability to do alpha strikes.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799107What are you talkign about? We are talking about the ranged cantrip damage which I have claimed is comparable to a fighters ranged damage as Estar claimed it was not...

It's not, because EB is a SINGLE attack and that is it. While the fighter gets FOUR seperate attacks. So yes a warlock can target 4 seperate targets for 1d10+CHA  bonus once for one of the 4 targets with 4 different attack rolls or do 4d10 + CHA ONCE on a single target unlike a fighter which gets the DEX/STR bonus damage bonus per attack. Just ask Mearls or better yet stop trolling and read the rules and ask the developers if you have a question given it's all there on the WotC board in the Twitter thread.

Cantrips are there to give the pure magic using classes a viable option when they are out of spell slots. Also please notice cantrips like Flame Bolt, Eldritch Blast or Ray of Frost require an attack roll unlike lesser damage/range cantrips or certain autohit spells like Magic Missle or similar.

And 5e requires EACH class to put out a defined minimum baseline of damage or they will die because the monsters are WAY tougher then previous editions as a rule.

Quote from: snooggums;799134Yeah, but Fire Bolt has that downside of lighting things on fire.

Wait...

Come on now you have to give some reason to be an Evoker or Sorcerer.

Quote from: misterguignol;799108My advice is to get a hobby knife and cut the damage-dealing cantrips out of your books as well as out of your friends' books. Wad the excised sections up and swallow them.

It's the only way to prevent the kind of egregious verisimilitude-slaying power gaming that a 1d10 at-will attack brings.

The only way.

Nuke them for morbid...from orbit it's the only way to be sure.

Quote from: Opaopajr;799069There's technically no rule against the possibility of more than one spell attack per round. It is just the pool of spells available currently make it extremely rare. The big restriction is the rule for Bonus Action spells, where afterwards the only thing you can cast with your Action is a Cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.

I know this because I have a mid-level cleric. I'd routinely cast Warding Bond ahead of time (1 hr duration) on the tank, and have a concentration spell up like Bless or Spirit Guardians. Then if things need more firepower Spirit Weapon as a Bonus Action (lasts 1 min, Bonus Action melee spell attack, usable immediately), followed by Sacred Flame (1 Action cantrip) in the same round. You could easily end up with Spirit Guardians, Spirit Weapon, Sacred Flame going off each round for 1 min — which seems gross — but you were better off with using your Action to Dodge, so as to help keep your Spirit Guardians on.

However, if it wasn't for Leomund's Tiny Hut, Fighters pour on the damage after everyone else runs out of steam. With the Hut though, the entire Short Rest economy is thrown out the window for most newbie GMs. Have a very short leash on that spell, metagame against it now; it's the "15 min workday" returned.

Well just like the fact it's possible to take a short rest every  5 minutes or less per RAW doesn't mean it's RAI. You can't stop stupid and Mearls and Co already let that be known because the actual rules are written to support various interpretations like 0-2e but won't stop ridiculous interpretation because that's up to each DM and table not the developers or the game beyond a certain obvious point.

Quote from: Marleycat;799156Well just like the fact it's possible to take a short rest every  5 minutes or less per RAW doesn't mean it's RAI. You can't stop stupid and Mearls and Co already let that be known because the actual rules are written to support various interpretations like 0-2e but won't stop ridiculous interpretation because that's up to each DM and table not the developers or the game beyond a certain obvious point.

?? Did you flip RAW & RAI?

5e Basic .pdf RAW is 1 hour minimum for Short Rest.

QuoteShort Rest
A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds.
(5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 67.)

edit: Whoops! Reading is essential! Yes, you can take a Short Rest after any period of non-rest time passes, including just 1 round. Mea culpa.

The max in a day is like 23 Short Rests, given around 2 minute adventure spurts in between. Yes, it would be exhausting and stupid to run. However, it is easier to attack a party taking a Short Rest than one bunkered in Leomund's Tiny Hut.

The only thing that's core is Basic. This is also acknowledged by the Adventure League .pdf. Yup, if an AL organizer is only interested in Basic, they don't have to accept even PHB races & classes, let alone multi-class & feats. In fact, the majority of the DMG is expected to not be AL legal until an AL Season taps an idea from it. For grognard purists, they made an Organized Play format even for you.

Quote from: Marleycat;799150It's not, because EB is a SINGLE attack and that is it. While the fighter gets FOUR seperate attacks. So yes a warlock can target 4 seperate targets for 1d10+CHA  bonus once for one of the 4 targets with 4 different attack rolls or do 4d10 + CHA ONCE on a single target unlike a fighter which gets the DEX/STR bonus damage bonus per attack. Just ask Mearls or better yet stop trolling and read the rules and ask the developers if you have a question given it's all there on the WotC board in the Twitter thread.

Cantrips are there to give the pure magic using classes a viable option when they are out of spell slots. Also please notice cantrips like Flame Bolt, Eldritch Blast or Ray of Frost require an attack roll unlike lesser damage/range cantrips or certain autohit spells like Magic Missle or similar.

And 5e requires EACH class to put out a defined minimum baseline of damage or they will die because the monsters are WAY tougher then previous editions as a rule.

TL : DNR
Warlocks are AoE DPS, Fighters are Single Target DPS

Quote from: Sommerjon;799169TL : DNR
Warlocks are AoE DPS, Fighters are Single Target DPS

That's not what an AoE is in 5e, and you can split your move and attacks now.

Or perhaps you had a particular MMO analogy in mind where AoE meant multi-targeting instead of spreading nuke effect?
:idunno: