Quote from: Will;798609Sacrosanct:
Again, Continual Flame costs 50 gp, probably due to observations of how Continual Light would go in 2e.

If you are making a few copper a day, you likely cannot afford a 50 gp item. (particularly since someone could just come by and... steal it)

Continual Light in 2e was a bigger problem, though it relied on a very vague balance -- it 'gradually consumed' whatever it was cast on, with no actual guidelines on how fast (other than 'gems last a very long time').

If you are trying to say the fixed prices in 3e (or any other edition) somehow lead to a more realistic-ish milieu than 5e cantrips, well then, I would completely disagree.  

Been a while since playing 3.x, so I cannot recall the actual material component off the top of my head.  But surely it is something.  That something is surely not equally distributed across the campaign world.  Somewhere, those continual flames will be cheap as hell somewhere. With divination to figure out where it is cheap as hell and teleport to get there and back, power centers like Rome will have them aplenty.  Unless you handwave away the logic and just play a fantasy game - which is exactly what I am doing with 5e cantrips.

Quote from: Will;798609Sacrosanct:
Again, Continual Flame costs 50 gp, probably due to observations of how Continual Light would go in 2e.

If you are making a few copper a day, you likely cannot afford a 50 gp item. (particularly since someone could just come by and... steal it)

Continual Light in 2e was a bigger problem, though it relied on a very vague balance -- it 'gradually consumed' whatever it was cast on, with no actual guidelines on how fast (other than 'gems last a very long time').

It only costs that much because that's what the book says arbitrarily, and is irrelevant to the point.  If you've got even one guy in a town who can cast continual light once or twice a day, that cost doesn't matter because he has the ability to light up the entire town by the end of a year.

If you're going to bring up the gp cost, all you have to do to reply to Doom is, "Oh, just make those cantrips cost money, and there you go! No problem any more!"

And I doubt he'd find that a convincing argument

Quote from: Will;798602At what point were classed characters not special snowflakes?

PC's have always been rare compared to the general population, but the rulers, movers, and shakers in most worlds are usually name level or higher, of course the highest level tend to be ex-adventurers themselves.

Why doesn't everyone have their own helicopter in the modern age?

There are only going to be continual flames everywhere if someone is footing the bill. Now, a prosperous kingdom is likely to do this in large towns and cities, assuming they can keep people from stealing them.

But don't read too much into what I'm saying. On the -general- availability of magic, I agree totally. The pseudo-medieval veneer of D&D doesn't mesh well with the availability of Magic.
On the other hand, availability of healing does help explain why the RenFair medievalism lacks the disease and illness that one would expect!

Quote from: Will;798609Sacrosanct:
Again, Continual Flame costs 50 gp, probably due to observations of how Continual Light would go in 2e.

If you are making a few copper a day, you likely cannot afford a 50 gp item. (particularly since someone could just come by and... steal it)

Continual Light in 2e was a bigger problem, though it relied on a very vague balance -- it 'gradually consumed' whatever it was cast on, with no actual guidelines on how fast (other than 'gems last a very long time').

A unskilled laborers make 2 silver a day. If he works say 20 days out of 30 every month then that is 40 silver a month. Continual flame is 500 silver. Over a year worth of wages in society with a barely developed system of banking and credit oriented towards making commercial trading easy.

By in large 5e (and most editions of D&D) money system is broadly equivalent to that of England of the High Middle Age. A wealthy peasant would earn between 2 to 5 pounds a year or 480 silver to 1,200 silver a year. 500 silver would till be a fantastic amount to spend on a Continual Flame.

Combined with the issues of having enough magic users to produce Continual Flames I would say that it is a luxury item sold like any other luxury items was in our own medieval time period. A limited number of merchants dealing with a limited number of magic using craftmen selling to a limited clientele.

Quote from: Old One Eye;798615Been a while since playing 3.x, so I cannot recall the actual material component off the top of my head.  But surely it is something.  That something is surely not equally distributed across the campaign world.  

The rarity of required material can be a factor but it is sufficient to make the skill to produce the item rare. In my experience with dealing with the issue in my own campaign it is a useful reason than scare material to explain the pricing and why not everybody has one or using one.

Quote from: estar;798614
It doesn't matter how useful magic is in 5e, but you can always design your setting to account for it. And even if you go no further than the implied default setting of 5e there are still good plausible reasons why things are the way they are.

I would add one caveat.  When we analogize to the real world, the elite are dependent on a large populace base to maintain elite lifestyles (as true today as a millenia ago).  While in a milieu where the elite have access to DnD style magic, the elite do not need a large populace base in order to enjoy elite lifestyles.  And if DnD style magics exist at all, it becomes a bit difficult to justify why it would not be available to the elite.

Quote from: Will;798602PCs of a particular level and class may very well stand out as rare, particularly at mid levels -- I think the largest metropoli have maybe one NPC of a given class in the 13-15 range.

No, 3e specifies this - each Metropolis (pop 25,000+) has 4 representatives of each class, of level 12+dX, with the X varying from 4 to 8 depending on class. Wizards for instance would number 4, each of level 13-16.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;798616It only costs that much because that's what the book says arbitrarily, and is irrelevant to the point.  If you've got even one guy in a town who can cast continual light once or twice a day, that cost doesn't matter because he has the ability to light up the entire town by the end of a year.

And how likely is that if the demographics are such that there is only one magic user in a town of 1,000? Not only have one magic-user you have to have a magic-user capable of making the thing and be interested in making the thing.

It was mention already that as physical items they can be stolen. Probably they can be lost as well due to storm damage sweeping a few away every year. So the system will need to be maintained. And lighting has to be weighed against every other useful thing that single mage could be doing.

In my opinion it all adds up to the fact if that you want a magic item economy it will be a luxury economy at best with limited number of individuals involved.

Now it is not to say that somewhere there is a town lighted by continual lights but it would be a wonder like the pyramids, or one of the other seven wonders. A one off project that just happened to have happened.

Ok, cool. I didn't remember the specific numbers, but knew there were some.

Other things I imagine large communities getting: decanter of endless water. It's a large investment, but the value of a reliable source of clean water is huge, and opens up options for desert kingdoms and such.

A small population filled with casters can also open up other options, like a community built inside a mountain, accessible only via teleport.

Quote from: Will;798618Why doesn't everyone have their own helicopter in the modern age?

Because it takes a ton of resources to make one, and it takes zero resources to cast continual light?


Really bad analogy there lol

Quote from: Old One Eye;798621I would add one caveat.  When we analogize to the real world, the elite are dependent on a large populace base to maintain elite lifestyles (as true today as a millenia ago).  While in a milieu where the elite have access to DnD style magic, the elite do not need a large populace base in order to enjoy elite lifestyles.  And if DnD style magics exist at all, it becomes a bit difficult to justify why it would not be available to the elite.

The lifestyle the elite enjoy is an expression of the power they wield. Power and the maintenance of power is the goal and always has been back to the days of tribes and chiefs. Being self-sufficient is not sufficient if you want to have power over other people or to maintain the power you inherited.

What it does mean that the gulf between the peasantry and the nobles is even wider than our own history. People forget that nobles were an ideal as well as the other things. They are an ideal because they were better fed, more healthier, and could pay for magnificent wonders. D&D style magic would just amplified that effect even more by creating a healthier lifestyle for the nobility.

The other thing to remember is that

a) most magic-users have to study, if they rule then they are not studying. Which mean mages that are able to study more will gain in personal power over those mages focused on ruling.

This doesn't preclude magocracies, but it does give a plausible reason why mage kings are not the norm in a D&D setting.

b) Then there are the clerics. Clerics are agents of a supernatural entity with an agenda wrapped up in faith and religion. The dominant magic users will be clerics (and similar classes) because it is one group that command formidable supernatural and the natural allegiance of the populace. With a potent supernatural ally on top of everything else.

So why isn't a D&D world dominated by theocracies, a plausible reason is that the supernatural entities i.e. gods don't want their clerics to be rulers. Likely the smart gods find it more effective if a culture freely chooses to incorporate their religion. That the clerics act more as cultural guardian above the fray of day to day life. Leaving the dirty work (and blame) to the nobility.

In the end there is no right answer, the goal is to make a plausible reason for why things exist the way they do in a setting. You can either start with a premise and work your way forward to the present. Or you can start with a present and come up with a set of reasons to make it work.

My own Majestic Wilderlands was developed primarily by the latter method.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;798625Because it takes a ton of resources to make one, and it takes zero resources to cast continual light?


Really bad analogy there lol

Continual flame. Continual flame costs 50 gp. It costs resources to make one.

50 gp isn't 'nothing' to a Commoner.

Continual light, sure. As I've mentioned a bunch of times.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;798625Because it takes a ton of resources to make one, and it takes zero resources to cast continual light?


Really bad analogy there lol

So what does it cost to clothes, feed, house, and teach someone to learn to cast that continual light? What further costs are incurred to keep the caster around to replace the continual lights that go missing.

The helicopter analogy is not perfect but it does illustrate the problem.

Quote from: estar;798632So what does it cost to clothes, feed, house, and teach someone to learn to cast that continual light? What further costs are incurred to keep the caster around to replace the continual lights that go missing.

The helicopter analogy is not perfect but it does illustrate the problem.

According to the rules?  however long it takes a PC to get enough XP, which if you look at multi-classing, could be as short as a few days (sessions).

"Hey man, I want to multi-class into a wizard."  "Look at that!  Now I have enough XP for level 3 after just a few days.  Now I can cast it!"

Also, how many continual light stones do you expect to be stolen or lost?  if they're constantly being created, I don't imagine there's be a huge market for them theft wise.

And more importantly, once you know how to cast continual light (or produce flame), you can keep doing it without any need for additional resources.

Making a helicopter ALWAYS requires a ton of resources.  So I repeat, horrible analogy.