TheRPGSite

For as long as I've been paying attention to RPGs, the conventional wisdom has been "As D&D goes, so goes the industry". When D&D is thriving, the rest of the RPG sector does well, and when D&D slumps, so does everyone else.

So I'm wondering: has this held true in the 5e era? All the available evidence is the 5e has been as huge and sustained success. What about the rest of the industry? Are other companies getting a bump from 5e's popularity, or is D&D's success strictly a D&D thing this time?

Well many Kickstarter projects I observed - both new editions and new games can get their fee and target quite quickly according to my observations.
In Poland I notice more and more translations of English RPGs compared to previous decades (ironically it took quite long with 5e to get Polish version compared to previous).

Yes and No.

I think there's definitely an argument to be made that D&D being the gateway drug for the vast majority of people getting into RPGs results in it's 'runoff' finding other games. The more people there are getting into D&D, the more 'runoff' there inevitably is looking into other systems. Compared to something like say... Warhammer, the benefit RPGs have is they're a relatively low-cost hobby to explore different companies/systems - if you spend £40 on a new core rulebook and your group hates it, that's not a small investment wasted but it's not like spending £300 on a new tabletop wargame for a non-GW system.

The No comes into play wherein those who are already exploring non-D&D games are more likely to be committed RPG'ers who aren't going anywhere and now that they're actively open to non-D&D alternatives aren't really bound by the same ebb-and-flow of popularity as WotC's offerings may be. A bunch of people who only got into 5e because of Critical Roll might not stick around in the hobby long term, whilst somebody who's playing... I don't know, L5R or OSR, or something far nicher still can probably be relied upon to keep RPG'ing into the future.

There's probably an argument to be made that because 5e is such a roaring success there's more people/groups who won't be able to comprehend playing anything else, especially with things like D&DBeyond becoming a thing. Any time there's a Kickstarter for a 5e setting there's inevitably a slue of "if it's not on Beyond I won't back it." I vaguely recall seeing a bunch of people who loved the 5e Eberron book saying they won't be buying Exploring Eberron because it's not on Beyond. If WotC start really doubling down on that kind 'contained eco-system' somehow, at least in the longterm, we might see Games Workshop-esq issues arise but I doubt it'll come to that for a while, if at all.

More or less agree with Snark Knight, except I would extend his reasoning to say that whatever "runoff" happens from D&D to other games happens on a delay.  This is a natural outgrowth of playing the game.  If 1,000 people in your area start D&D 5E tomorrow, then some subset will stick with it--say 500 for sake of example.  Out of those 500, some much smaller group will enjoy the idea of roleplaying but will eventually become dissatisfied with how 5E handles things.  A subset of those will go looking for something else.  Some will try other games but not find one they like more than D&D.  Others will not be able to talk a group into playing another game.  But there are two key aspects of how this works:

1. The GM's are a huge driver.  If I keep running 5E games, 20+ odd people are going to keep playing it. If I switch, most or all of them will switch with me.  Out of those players, at least three are also involved in other groups with a different GM.  If they like what I switch to enough, it may cascade.  But probably will not.

2. Dissatisfaction grows at a different rate for different players and there are a variety of reasons for it.  The switch tends to happen when a majority of the group are dissatisfied with the same aspects (or mostly the same).  Otherwise, you get the "everyone's second choice" thing, which is not merely 5E versus other versions of D&D but also 5E versus some other game. 

You also can't discount how much of a deal-breaker the particular dissatisfaction is.  If something just annoys you, but you like the group a lot, and none of them are bothered by the thing you don't like, then you'll probably put up with it.  The severity of the dissatisfaction has to rise to the point that it overcomes inertia.

Bottom line:  I think it is only recently that 5E has been around enough that we will start to see such migration, if we do.

I think that the effects of D&D's surge in popularity will have a greater impact than previous iterations.  It's a sort of perfect storm.  New-ish edition, plus the popularity of Critical Role, and compounded with the whole COVID nonsense means you have loads of new people trying roleplaying games in general.

Also, many of us who grew up in the 80s and played D&D now have kids who're getting to be the age we were when we started playing D&D.  With so many more established fictional universes to play in, you can't help but try out new RPG systems.

There's a few things keeping players in D&D that didn't exist in the past.

One of them is the hardcover adventures which give DMs more reason to stick with D&D.

The other which compounds this is VTTs.  VTTs try and sell people on fancy gimmicks like dynamic lighting and the like.  These take time to set up which reinforces the desire to buy published adventure paths that do it for you, and makes it seem like much more work to do your own thing.  It's also a case that VTTs don't support non D&D systems very much if at all.

Quote from: TJS on February 10, 2021, 03:50:30 PM
There's a few things keeping players in D&D that didn't exist in the past.

One of them is the hardcover adventures which give DMs more reason to stick with D&D.

The other which compounds this is VTTs.  VTTs try and sell people on fancy gimmicks like dynamic lighting and the like.  These take time to set up which reinforces the desire to buy published adventure paths that do it for you, and makes it seem like much more work to do your own thing.  It's also a case that VTTs don't support non D&D systems very much if at all.

Are there adventures being sold that include VTT integration?

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 10, 2021, 04:29:07 PM

Quote from: TJS on February 10, 2021, 03:50:30 PM
There's a few things keeping players in D&D that didn't exist in the past.

One of them is the hardcover adventures which give DMs more reason to stick with D&D.

The other which compounds this is VTTs.  VTTs try and sell people on fancy gimmicks like dynamic lighting and the like.  These take time to set up which reinforces the desire to buy published adventure paths that do it for you, and makes it seem like much more work to do your own thing.  It's also a case that VTTs don't support non D&D systems very much if at all.

Are there adventures being sold that include VTT integration?

If you buy an official adventure module on a VTT - usually Roll20 - pretty much all of the set up is done for you. Usually the VTT sites themselves sell it and tout Beyond integration as a thing. That's why 99% of the paid games you see are for pre-gens, as they do pretty much everything short of literally reading out the text and moving enemy tokens about. One of the main reasons I see listed for why people don't swap from Roll20 to Foundry (or other VTT platforms) is because they've spent a lot of money buying those modules on that platform.

It's why I mention Beyond eco-systems as potentially being something Wizard invest more into so as to keep more people within the D&D 'bubble' - don't play those other games because you've got everything you could possibly want right here, don't forget about how much money you've spent on Beyond! Everything so easy, just a few clicks away! Who wants to use those stinky, old fashioned systems where you have to do stuff like reading or have your DM install plugins?

QuoteIt's also a case that VTTs don't support non D&D systems very much if at all.

Dunno. Both Roll20 and Foundry - seemed to have way more options than D&D included.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 10, 2021, 06:19:42 PM

QuoteIt's also a case that VTTs don't support non D&D systems very much if at all.

Dunno. Both Roll20 and Foundry - seemed to have way more options than D&D included.

I haven't looked at Foundry.  But Roll20 mostly has "character sheets".  Whereas for 5e you get a character builder, you get monsters you can drag and drop, all of which have clickable macros etc.

Having a character builder is a big advantage online as it's a lot harder to help people create characters online.

Of course if you run a light system like OSR or Barbarians of Lemuria and use the VTT minimally then you will still have an easier time than running 5e.  But the point is that VTTs don't want you to use their platforms minimally they want to convince you to go all in - that  dynamic lighting and beautiful maps and the like will make your game so much better.  They're in the business of selling you dependency.

And to the extent that they succeed they make it harder to do other things.

Take something as basic as a map.  If you are running D&D then there are gazillions of battlemaps you can upload to move your little tokens around on.  But say you want to run a game set in Ancient India, or Tang Dynasty China, or even the Modern Day.  Suddenly there's a lot less maps to choose from and you will spend significantly more time searching (assuming you've bought into the assumption that you need them).

The playstyle that VTTs are selling makes things progressively more difficult the further you get from from D&D.

Edit: I've seen some of this spilling over into live games.  I've seen several GMs run 5e by printing out battlemap size maps of dungeons, cutting them up and progressively laying them out as the party move around with the miniatures never leaving the table.

Quote from: Dimitrios on February 10, 2021, 09:31:39 AM
For as long as I've been paying attention to RPGs, the conventional wisdom has been "As D&D goes, so goes the industry". When D&D is thriving, the rest of the RPG sector does well, and when D&D slumps, so does everyone else.

So I'm wondering: has this held true in the 5e era? All the available evidence is the 5e has been as huge and sustained success. What about the rest of the industry? Are other companies getting a bump from 5e's popularity, or is D&D's success strictly a D&D thing this time?

Well... when an RPG goes into a slump, players look for other RPGs to get into.
The same goes for comic books.
The same goes for streamed media.

When an RPG succeeds at something, companies will copy the idea. Players will flame war each other on which RPG is best.

Quote from: Snark Knight on February 10, 2021, 04:42:08 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 10, 2021, 04:29:07 PM

Quote from: TJS on February 10, 2021, 03:50:30 PM
There's a few things keeping players in D&D that didn't exist in the past.

One of them is the hardcover adventures which give DMs more reason to stick with D&D.

The other which compounds this is VTTs.  VTTs try and sell people on fancy gimmicks like dynamic lighting and the like.  These take time to set up which reinforces the desire to buy published adventure paths that do it for you, and makes it seem like much more work to do your own thing.  It's also a case that VTTs don't support non D&D systems very much if at all.

Are there adventures being sold that include VTT integration?

If you buy an official adventure module on a VTT - usually Roll20 - pretty much all of the set up is done for you. Usually the VTT sites themselves sell it and tout Beyond integration as a thing. That's why 99% of the paid games you see are for pre-gens, as they do pretty much everything short of literally reading out the text and moving enemy tokens about. One of the main reasons I see listed for why people don't swap from Roll20 to Foundry (or other VTT platforms) is because they've spent a lot of money buying those modules on that platform.

It's why I mention Beyond eco-systems as potentially being something Wizard invest more into so as to keep more people within the D&D 'bubble' - don't play those other games because you've got everything you could possibly want right here, don't forget about how much money you've spent on Beyond! Everything so easy, just a few clicks away! Who wants to use those stinky, old fashioned systems where you have to do stuff like reading or have your DM install plugins?

Interesting. That strikes me as the most useful online *thing* D&D has implemented. So far, their online efforts have been... inadequate to hilariously bad.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 10, 2021, 07:52:44 PM

Quote from: Snark Knight on February 10, 2021, 04:42:08 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 10, 2021, 04:29:07 PM

Quote from: TJS on February 10, 2021, 03:50:30 PM
There's a few things keeping players in D&D that didn't exist in the past.

One of them is the hardcover adventures which give DMs more reason to stick with D&D.

The other which compounds this is VTTs.  VTTs try and sell people on fancy gimmicks like dynamic lighting and the like.  These take time to set up which reinforces the desire to buy published adventure paths that do it for you, and makes it seem like much more work to do your own thing.  It's also a case that VTTs don't support non D&D systems very much if at all.

Are there adventures being sold that include VTT integration?

If you buy an official adventure module on a VTT - usually Roll20 - pretty much all of the set up is done for you. Usually the VTT sites themselves sell it and tout Beyond integration as a thing. That's why 99% of the paid games you see are for pre-gens, as they do pretty much everything short of literally reading out the text and moving enemy tokens about. One of the main reasons I see listed for why people don't swap from Roll20 to Foundry (or other VTT platforms) is because they've spent a lot of money buying those modules on that platform.

It's why I mention Beyond eco-systems as potentially being something Wizard invest more into so as to keep more people within the D&D 'bubble' - don't play those other games because you've got everything you could possibly want right here, don't forget about how much money you've spent on Beyond! Everything so easy, just a few clicks away! Who wants to use those stinky, old fashioned systems where you have to do stuff like reading or have your DM install plugins?

Interesting. That strikes me as the most useful online *thing* D&D has implemented. So far, their online efforts have been... inadequate to hilariously bad.

I don't think D&D implements it.  It's the VTT as far as I understand.  Of course if you also bought the hardback they get paid twice so it's in their interest to encourage it.

I'm quite sure I've seen at least Warhammer and Cthulhu games on Roll20 with implemented skills and challenges resolved, so I guess there is more to that.
Besides it's in best interest of any VTT to have more options than just D&D.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 10, 2021, 08:31:28 PM
I'm quite sure I've seen at least Warhammer and Cthulhu games on Roll20 with implemented skills and challenges resolved, so I guess there is more to that.
Besides it's in best interest of any VTT to have more options than just D&D.

It's the same issue though.  VTTs greatly constrict the range of games that can make an impact, due to their level of support.

And it's a vicious circle because only games that have a large enough group of players will get significant support.

I'm not sure.

I played many different games during the 4e era, but now I'm playing a lot of 5e (well, heavily house-ruiled since it's become too bloated for me).

I write reviews, etc., and 5e draws A LOT of attention when compared to different games.

A decent edition of D&D is a double-edged sword, it seems...

Loved 5E at the start. Thought it was old school enough. After DMing it for years. I see now that it isn't...at all. It has enough of the surface dressing of Old School games that I didn't notice the bad veins running all through it.

My house rules for it ended up being a book.

That's when I realized it would be better and more core to the rules system to just use Old School essentials and a half a dozen house rules than the monstrosity I was trying to work with.

It's still a very deductive and flashy edition though that I struggle to put down and walk away from. It's the Drug Dealer Edition. Don't worry about that stuff man, rules don't make the game. Just play me. Look ay all my awesome adventure paths. Players will hound you if you pick me, that's right inspiration ain't so bad, low math is a feature..who needs AC...people don't like to miss anyway......here try this new E-tool.........

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 10, 2021, 08:31:28 PM
I'm quite sure I've seen at least Warhammer and Cthulhu games on Roll20 with implemented skills and challenges resolved, so I guess there is more to that.
Besides it's in best interest of any VTT to have more options than just D&D.

I have watched YouTube videos of Forbidden Lands games using Roll20, sadly due to the poor GM they are not a great advertisement for the game but the software seems to work well enough.

Quote from: TJS on February 10, 2021, 07:22:15 PM
Edit: I've seen some of this spilling over into live games.  I've seen several GMs run 5e by printing out battlemap size maps of dungeons, cutting them up and progressively laying them out as the party move around with the miniatures never leaving the table.

You say that like it's a bad thing  ;)
I am a huge fan of figures on the table for RPGs but prefer one of the modular 2.5D or 3D dungeon terrain sets to maps.

Quote from: robh on February 23, 2021, 12:33:11 PM

Quote from: TJS on February 10, 2021, 07:22:15 PM
Edit: I've seen some of this spilling over into live games.  I've seen several GMs run 5e by printing out battlemap size maps of dungeons, cutting them up and progressively laying them out as the party move around with the miniatures never leaving the table.

You say that like it's a bad thing  ;)
I am a huge fan of figures on the table for RPGs but prefer one of the modular 2.5D or 3D dungeon terrain sets to maps.

And that is how I came to own three 3d printers... I couldn't justify buying Dwarven Forge stuff anymore.

Quote from: Dimitrios on February 10, 2021, 09:31:39 AM
For as long as I've been paying attention to RPGs, the conventional wisdom has been "As D&D goes, so goes the industry". When D&D is thriving, the rest of the RPG sector does well, and when D&D slumps, so does everyone else.

Yeah, I dunno. It's that thing about correlation and causation. D&D has always been the biggest dog in the RPG industry. So is it the success of D&D that's pulling along other RPGs in the industry, or is it just that when the industry as a whole is doing well D&D (as the big dog) does very well, too? Or some mix of the two? And then there's the distinction between the industry and the hobby. They're related, of course, but not exactly the same thing.

Personally, I don't worry about "the industry." I buy the games and supplements I enjoy playing, participate in my corner of the hobby, and I figure the rest of it will work out however it's going to work out.

Quote from: TJS on February 10, 2021, 08:38:32 PM

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 10, 2021, 08:31:28 PM
I'm quite sure I've seen at least Warhammer and Cthulhu games on Roll20 with implemented skills and challenges resolved, so I guess there is more to that.
Besides it's in best interest of any VTT to have more options than just D&D.

It's the same issue though.  VTTs greatly constrict the range of games that can make an impact, due to their level of support.

And it's a vicious circle because only games that have a large enough group of players will get significant support.

I playing Traveller on Foundry and it's being developed by volunteers. Rules implementation is very spotty. The degree to which a game is supported will straight up decide what system I run with; I don't want to deal with poorly coded frustration. And this leads to a prevalence of rules simple games. Numbers + monetization will be the cure, but some systems will never get developed due to complexity/obscurity.

According to the Fantasy Grounds report, D&D 5e accounts for 71% of the use of their platform, with Pathfinder and Savage Worlds taking another 16% between them.
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/reports/2020Q4/ (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/reports/2020Q4/)

On Roll20 5e is over 50% (but the data is 1 quarter behind)
https://blog.roll20.net/posts/the-orr-group-industry-report-q3-2020-breakout/ (https://blog.roll20.net/posts/the-orr-group-industry-report-q3-2020-breakout/)

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 10, 2021, 10:45:08 AM
Well many Kickstarter projects I observed - both new editions and new games can get their fee and target quite quickly according to my observations.
In Poland I notice more and more translations of English RPGs compared to previous decades (ironically it took quite long with 5e to get Polish version compared to previous).

Initially WOTC denied several long standing translation groups a license to continue for 5e. Wether that still holds true or not dont know.

A VTT can be quite useful if the integrated systems are done well.

Warhammer 4th Edition on Virtual Foundry and 2e D&D on Fantasy Grounds are fine examples of stellar integration of the gaming systems.  As far as I can tell, they are more passion projects.  It makes it very easy to sell a group of players on a new system if the VTT eases them into learning it.

At some point 5e will not be the latest:  I wonder if players moving on will look back on it with nostalgic fondness or indifference.  Probably the latter.
I personally doubt it will hold the same fascination that the TSR offerings have had over the years.

Quote from: Snark Knight on February 10, 2021, 11:00:04 AM
Yes and No.

I think there's definitely an argument to be made that D&D being the gateway drug for the vast majority of people getting into RPGs results in it's 'runoff' finding other games. ...

There's probably an argument to be made that because 5e is such a roaring success there's more people/groups who won't be able to comprehend playing anything else, especially with things like D&DBeyond becoming a thing. ... If WotC start really doubling down on that kind 'contained eco-system' somehow, at least in the longterm, we might see Games Workshop-esq issues arise but I doubt it'll come to that for a while, if at all.

I Believe that with 5e the runoff is proportionally less than it probably has been in the past.

The top 2 selling rpgs are D&D and D&D's clone.

IMHO we are starting to see the long-term effects of Dancy's Brilliant OGL policy.

D20 uber alles... Which has benefited WOTC enormously!

There is D&D, and then the rest of the hobby. D&D is doing Great, (And those who make 5e compatible product) but I don't think the trickle down to other systems is in the proportions that it was in the past.

In the mid 90's, when you went to a gaming store there was more variety on the shelves system wise than there is now. So a Casual fan walking into a gaming store got exposed to different RPG's just by showing up..

Now it's all online, and there's tons of RPG's out there for sure. But you have to know where to look.

And the current 5e ecosystem is not big on DIY rules mods for 5e, let alone different RPG's altogether.

As for GW type issues... Don't give them any ideas!

WOTC could throw their weight around in the RPG market far more than they have been...

Quote from: TJS on February 10, 2021, 08:38:32 PM
It's the same issue though.  VTTs greatly constrict the range of games that can make an impact, due to their level of support.

And it's a vicious circle because only games that have a large enough group of players will get significant support.

I'd be very surprised if for 6e WOTC doesn't pick one of the VTT and do a 'D&D Beyond' type deal with them making them the Exclusive VTT for 6e D&D.

Every new book/adventure Drops only on their WOTC approved VTT. Case and desist letters for the rest.

I'd also do a deal with one of the 3d print figure companies - make them exclusive. Then have a way when you order your custom figure model you also get a token file to put the 3d version on the VTT as well.

Exclusive VTT License + Subscription model = Rake cash...

Quote from: Jaeger on March 31, 2021, 07:20:18 PM
I Believe that with 5e the runoff is proportionally less than it probably has been in the past.

The top 2 selling rpgs are D&D and D&D's clone.

IMHO we are starting to see the long-term effects of Dancy's Brilliant OGL policy.

D20 uber alles... Which has benefited WOTC enormously!

There is D&D, and then the rest of the hobby. D&D is doing Great, (And those who make 5e compatible product) but I don't think the trickle down to other systems is in the proportions that it was in the past.

In the mid 90's, when you went to a gaming store there was more variety on the shelves system wise than there is now. So a Casual fan walking into a gaming store got exposed to different RPG's just by showing up..

We saw that back in the 2000s with D&D 3.x. D&D was selling really well and more and more people started putting out 3rd party product for it which sold well so stores reduced shelf space for anything that wasn't d20. Then after awhile the market for D20 ended and instead of bringing back the games they use to stock stores just turned that space over to other things (more tables for the crack add...er Magic and Pokémon fans, board games, space for 40k, etc).

At least that was what happened in my area.

Quote from: lordmalachdrim on March 31, 2021, 08:38:50 PM
We saw that back in the 2000s with D&D 3.x. D&D was selling really well and more and more people started putting out 3rd party product for it which sold well so stores reduced shelf space for anything that wasn't d20. Then after awhile the market for D20 ended and instead of bringing back the games they use to stock stores just turned that space over to other things (more tables for the crack add...er Magic and Pokémon fans, board games, space for 40k, etc).

At least that was what happened in my area.

I would say that was a general effect, not just confined to your area.

On the one hand I can't really blame the stores. d20 boom + Magic boom = who needs Hero system tome taking up shelf space? They gota go with what gave them a good return and didn't collect dust...

IMHO this situation has been made worse over time, by the big non-d20 system games like Shadowrun, Vampire, and Warhammer, effectively managing themselves into ever shrinking fanbases.

My optimistic view is that history will repeat itself. That is, the shrinking non-D&D market makes playing non-D&D (and even D&D) games just like before - a quest to find the right loonies to have fun with. I was raised in a time and place where rpg players were far and few in between, so I don't see any difference between finding someone to play with vs finding someone that isn't Mercer-fed. I think the conversion rate is still the same, be it pre-3e, post-3e or post-5e.

The bast part is that through the OSR and other third-party products we have D&D in our hearts, bonus the tools required.

QuoteIMHO this situation has been made worse over time, by the big non-d20 system games like Shadowrun, Vampire, and Warhammer, effectively managing themselves into ever shrinking fanbases.

It may just be the zeitgeist: Edgy vampires were a 90s thing, like zombies were 00s. Shadowrun was so 80s, it hurts. I'll give you Warhammer, though (yet the modern idea of social commentary is somewhat skewed against the setting, so..).

Quote from: theOutlander on April 02, 2021, 11:40:12 AM
My optimistic view is that history will repeat itself. That is, the shrinking non-D&D market makes playing non-D&D (and even D&D) games just like before - a quest to find the right loonies to have fun with. I was raised in a time and place where rpg players were far and few in between, so I don't see any difference between finding someone to play with vs finding someone that isn't Mercer-fed. I think the conversion rate is still the same, be it pre-3e, post-3e or post-5e.

The bast part is that through the OSR and other third-party products we have D&D in our hearts, bonus the tools required.

QuoteIMHO this situation has been made worse over time, by the big non-d20 system games like Shadowrun, Vampire, and Warhammer, effectively managing themselves into ever shrinking fanbases.

It may just be the zeitgeist: Edgy vampires were a 90s thing, like zombies were 00s. Shadowrun was so 80s, it hurts. I'll give you Warhammer, though (yet the modern idea of social commentary is somewhat skewed against the setting, so..).

laughs in Age of Sigmar

Quote from: RandyB on April 02, 2021, 12:27:50 PM
laughs in Age of Sigmar

The Age of Shitmar actually makes me think twice about my absolute defence of free speech. I almost, almost, wonder what a book burning or two would look like.

Quote from: theOutlander on April 02, 2021, 11:40:12 AM
My optimistic view is that history will repeat itself....

My pessimistic view is that D&D has never been bigger, and the non D&D d20 games have never been smaller.

Quote from: theOutlander on April 02, 2021, 11:40:12 AM
It may just be the zeitgeist: Edgy vampires were a 90s thing, like zombies were 00s. Shadowrun was so 80s, it hurts. I'll give you Warhammer, though (yet the modern idea of social commentary is somewhat skewed against the setting, so..).

Zeitgeist may have been what brought Vampire and Shadowrun into prominence. But for each property one can point to things that were done which drove the brands into the ground.

Warhammer has always been a great setting held back by a perpetually sub-par system for the type of adventuring it was selling.

2e wasn't bad.

3e - WTF were they thinking.

4e -  I know lets not fix the issues with 2e, lets make something similar but more complex. That's the winning ticket!

There were 3 perpetually top 2-5 RPG's. All mismanaged into also-rans.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 02, 2021, 07:50:47 PM

Quote from: theOutlander on April 02, 2021, 11:40:12 AM
My optimistic view is that history will repeat itself....

My pessimistic view is that D&D has never been bigger, and the non D&D d20 games have never been smaller.

Quote from: theOutlander on April 02, 2021, 11:40:12 AM
It may just be the zeitgeist: Edgy vampires were a 90s thing, like zombies were 00s. Shadowrun was so 80s, it hurts. I'll give you Warhammer, though (yet the modern idea of social commentary is somewhat skewed against the setting, so..).

Zeitgeist may have been what brought Vampire and Shadowrun into prominence. But for each property one can point to things that were done which drove the brands into the ground.

Warhammer has always been a great setting held back by a perpetually sub-par system for the type of adventuring it was selling.

2e wasn't bad.

3e - WTF were they thinking.

4e -  I know lets not fix the issues with 2e, lets make something similar but more complex. That's the winning ticket!

There were 3 perpetually top 2-5 RPG's. All mismanaged into also-rans.

Greetings!

Brutal and ruthless, Jaeger! CHOMP! CHOMP!

--and spot on in an accurate analysis, my friend!

I don't claim any familiarity with Vampire or of Shadowrun, but Warhammer FRP is something I'm quite familiar with. I played Warhammer 1E for years. I have virtually every sourcebook and module they ever created, including the often-celebrated novels.

I own most of everything they created for Warhammer 2E. I thought Warhammer 2E was a passionate, robust update and reworking of Warhammer 1E that served as an outstanding achievement, with many excellent books that covered everything in Warhammer 1E, and more besides.

I always scratch my head wondering why anyone felt the need to change Warhammer 2E to begin with. Fantasy Flight Games' Warhammer 3E was arrgghh...utter trash entirely.

Warhammer 4E, yeah. I don't know much about it. It gets me to cycle back to my huge collection of Warhammer 2E books. What would I possibly need from Warhammer 4E? My Warhammer 2E books are all, without exception, in *mint condition*. Why would anyone that is a fan of Warhammer 2E want anything from Warhammer 4E? It seems like such a waste of time and energy trying to reinvent the wheel, when there already exists a fine sportscar you can drive endlessly.

Beyond the actual game and mechanical discussions, I also can agree entirely that the franchises as games, have been thoroughly mismanaged as you said, "Into also-rans"! *laughing* So very, very true! Such artistic and gaming potential that could have been marshalled into an enduring system, with a passionate, stable, and vocal fanbase!

Somehow, though, time and time again, the management shoved their heads up their asses and caused the game franchise to wither and die on the vine.

So tragic.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on April 02, 2021, 08:47:18 PM
Why would anyone that is a fan of Warhammer 2E want anything from Warhammer 4E? It seems like such a waste of time and energy trying to reinvent the wheel, when there already exists a fine sportscar you can drive endlessly.

I am a big fan of WFRP2e, but I really like the version of the career system in WFRP4e. That's not to say I like all of the added complexity of 4e, but it does have some features not found in 2e.

Quote from: lordmalachdrim on March 31, 2021, 08:38:50 PM
Then after awhile the market for D20 ended and instead of bringing back the games they use to stock stores just turned that space over to other things (more tables for the crack add...er Magic and Pokémon fans, board games, space for 40k, etc).

At least that was what happened in my area.

A small bit of insight here.

The reason you saw some game stores devoting more space to Warhammer/GW product was because they had no choice. GW had, and likely still has a clause that requires stores that stock their games to stock ONLY their games. I am not sure what the threshold is where they demand this. But locally that is the case and a store that became a GW host dropped everything else. As of 2014 they demand retailers have to buy a certain amount of product, and have to devote X amount of space to only GW games, at fixed prices set by GW.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 02, 2021, 07:50:47 PM
Zeitgeist may have been what brought Vampire and Shadowrun into prominence. But for each property one can point to things that were done which drove the brands into the ground.

For Vampire it was the idiotic notion that they had to deliver on the setting's implied imminent End of Days coupled with the idea that they could get get everyone to just jump ship after that to a similar, but different enough to cause headaches setting and rule set after doing so (aka Vampire the Requiem).

The first part was the result of their having sniffed enough of their own farts to take the "Storyteller" part of their system's name seriously and that a roleplaying setting was the same thing as an actual story with plots that develop and get resolved instead of being the ground state from which the GMs build their own scenarios that can become stories after the fact.

The second was the same misread they made with the present V5; a belief that clunky, but flexible rules and heap tons of lore to consume were a bug rather than a feature of the system.

It's worth noting the only real success Vampire has ever pulled off after tanking itself was their retro 20th Anniversary Editions.

Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2021, 11:45:20 PM
A small bit of insight here.

The reason you saw some game stores devoting more space to Warhammer/GW product was because they had no choice. GW had, and likely still has a clause that requires stores that stock their games to stock ONLY their games. I am not sure what the threshold is where they demand this. But locally that is the case and a store that became a GW host dropped everything else. As of 2014 they demand retailers have to buy a certain amount of product, and have to devote X amount of space to only GW games, at fixed prices set by GW.

They didn't devote more space to product. They dedicated more space for people to play sit around for hours playing with the stuff they bought online.

Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2021, 11:45:20 PM
GW had, and likely still has a clause that requires stores that stock their games to stock ONLY their games.

No they did not.

The terms of becoming a GW stockist have always been about the level (financial and core box quantity) of stock you have to agree to hold and which product ranges that stock has to be sourced from.
Providing a trader has the financial capacity to invest in other companies minimum order quantities GW does not/can not ever stop them. Question is how many hobby shops are financially able to do that, those who cannot have to make the choice, stock GW or rival brands.

Quote from: SHARK on April 02, 2021, 08:47:18 PM
...
Beyond the actual game and mechanical discussions, I also can agree entirely that the franchises as games, have been thoroughly mismanaged as you said, "Into also-rans"! *laughing* So very, very true! Such artistic and gaming potential that could have been marshalled into an enduring system, with a passionate, stable, and vocal fanbase!
...

In fairness to these games D&D has been mismanaged, and bailed out by big $$ no less than 3 times.

But as the market leader it will benefit from things like that.

Other games Like vampire, WHFRP, and Shadowrun have to walk a finer line, and it is much harder for them to recover when they stumble.

This is why Pathfinder2 took the conservative route and doubled down with their featapalooza design direction for PF2. They didn't want to risk a flop.

IMHO there are times where you can go conservative, and wind up conserving absolutely nothing.

I feel PF2 will eventually take Baizuo to the same place as Hero and GURPS.

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 02, 2021, 11:41:07 PM
...
I am a big fan of WFRP2e, but I really like the version of the career system in WFRP4e. That's not to say I like all of the added complexity of 4e, but it does have some features not found in 2e.

Fixing the known issues with 2e and adding new features that actually enhance the game at the table, was the correct way to go.

Adding new features, then adding more complexity - thereby introducing all new issues that need to be fixed - just serves to keep WHFRP a 3rd tier also-ran.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 03, 2021, 04:38:58 PM
...
For Vampire it was the idiotic notion that they had to deliver on the setting's implied imminent End of Days coupled with the idea that they could get get everyone to just jump ship after that to a similar, but different enough to cause headaches setting and rule set after doing so (aka Vampire the Requiem).

The first part was the result of their having sniffed enough of their own farts to take the "Storyteller" part of their system's name seriously ...

Metaplot has laid many a game low - especially when the people in charge of the game line start to believe that their in-game flavor fiction is actually good...

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 03, 2021, 04:38:58 PM
The second was the same misread they made with the present V5; a belief that clunky, but flexible rules and heap tons of lore to consume were a bug rather than a feature of the system.

It's worth noting the only real success Vampire has ever pulled off after tanking itself was their retro 20th Anniversary Editions.

The success of the 20th anniversary edition should have been the market signal they looked to for the design direction of V5.

Sometimes keeping your desires for avant-garde artistic expression in check, and just giving the fans what they want in a well written, play-tested, quality game; actually turns out to be both a creative and financially successful move...

Quote from: Jaeger on April 03, 2021, 08:30:07 PM
Other games Like vampire, WHFRP, and Shadowrun have to walk a finer line, and it is much harder for them to recover when they stumble.

Others have spoken on Vampire, and touched on WFRP (3e was a big stumble in the eyes of most fans, and 4e has mixed reactions), but then there is Shadowrun. The 4e and 5e versions were considered mixed (a fair number liked the rules changes, even if some thought the loss of pools wrecked the game, but very few that I know of have liked the flavor/story/plot developments) but then there is the steaming pile of shit that is Shadowrun Sixth World (6e). I've seen nothing good said about it. There's Shadowun Anarchy too, which just doesn't feel at all like Shadowrun to me. So, Shadowrun has been stumbling for >10 years, but somehow they keep putting a bunch of stuff out in pdf and print.

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 03, 2021, 09:08:16 PM
... Shadowrun has been stumbling for >10 years, but somehow they keep putting a bunch of stuff out in pdf and print.

Shadowrun and other 'legacy' games that once had a really good run benefit from having an extensive back-catalogue that they can continually mine and refurbish for new editions. And fans of gaming IP can be very long-suffering...

GURPS and HERO are prime examples... If they closed up their RPG lines tomorrow no one would really notice.

Yes they are technically supported, and still put out product which their die-hard fanbase buys. But as far as Joe and Jane gamer are concerned.. "Who..??"

Which is a far cry from where they used to be.

Quote from: robh on April 03, 2021, 05:57:06 PM

Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2021, 11:45:20 PM
GW had, and likely still has a clause that requires stores that stock their games to stock ONLY their games.

No they did not.

The terms of becoming a GW stockist have always been about the level (financial and core box quantity) of stock you have to agree to hold and which product ranges that stock has to be sourced from.
Providing a trader has the financial capacity to invest in other companies minimum order quantities GW does not/can not ever stop them. Question is how many hobby shops are financially able to do that, those who cannot have to make the choice, stock GW or rival brands.

I've talked with store owners. Sorry. Yes they did require this. And probably still do.

Quote from: Omega on April 09, 2021, 06:32:20 AM
I've talked with store owners. Sorry. Yes they did require this. And probably still do.

And I was a store manager and I say again. NO they did not.

How much of the market right now that isn't D&D  is cottage-industry devs swapping money back and forth between each other's itch.io pages? I wanna say at least 40%.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 02, 2021, 07:50:47 PM
Zeitgeist may have been what brought Vampire and Shadowrun into prominence. But for each property one can point to things that were done which drove the brands into the ground.

I've always liked the setting of Shadowrun - but every edition of the game seems to be somewhere between meh and bad.

There are other issues, but the two related core factors seem to be the overly complex sub-systems and how said sub-systems take so long at the table. Time for the Decker to do something? Guess everyone else at the table should go make a sandwich or something. Same thing with astral plane stuff.

IMO, every sub-system should do one of two things in a TTRPG:

1. Be fast - a few minutes at the absolute most - so that the game gets back to table play ASAP.

2. Include everyone at the table, even if the non-specialist characters are sub-par, they should still be able to contribute. (Shadowrun does this with combat. The Decker isn't as effective as the street samurai, but he can still pop off with a pistol to contribute.)


Overall though, the mechanics of Shadowrun never really live up to the setting IMO.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on April 12, 2021, 03:09:11 PM
I've always liked the setting of Shadowrun - but every edition of the game seems to be somewhere between meh and bad.

There are other issues, but the two related core factors seem to be the overly complex sub-systems and how said sub-systems take so long at the table....
...
Overall though, the mechanics of Shadowrun never really live up to the setting IMO.

This is the main reason Shadowrun has faded.

People will come for the IP, but you can drive them away with the system!

IMHO there is nothing in the 3rd edition of SR that can't be fixed. And people seem to prefer the setting fluff from the 2nd edition.

So what do they do for SR4,5 & 6? Clean up and streamline the known system issues, drop the metaplot and develop the 2e world with updates for technology? Noooooooo...

Instead the IP holder changed how the diepool's worked, updates the lore because #iwannabeawriter, and introduced all new systematic issues to be fixed with their "system update". Which they never fix in successive editions. All while still keeping all the old legacy complexity issues that SR had.

And people wonder why its player base has dwindled... But hey you can play a Pixie, so it must still be cool right?

Same with Vampire/WoD. So what do the IP holders do when the 20th anniversary release is relatively successful?

Heaven forbid they give the customer base what it wants with a updated and streamlined version of Vampire the Masquerade where the known system issues are actually addressed. Nooooo! What the fanbase really wants is our new expression of what it means to be a woe is me monster!

ROTFL! Bring back the World of Darkness in a way that the old fans can get behind? Such nonsense! Vampire is a Storytelling Game for snowflake auteurs... Not for the unwashed masses who want to play katanas and trenchcoats!

Same with WHFRP 3rd edition. FFG tried to make a "look another special dice game!" edition. Which made the RPG hobby go: "WHFRP what?"

So what does C7 do when they get the license?  Release a cleaned up version of WHFRP 2e with known issues addressed and some new features to enhance the WHFRP experience? Noooooooo...  Such obvious ways to update the game to get back the old players and attract new ones are for Poofs!

Complexity must be added! Because as we all know complex d100 systems have legions of fans!

So we get WHFRP 4e, complete with all new system issues obvious upon release due to lack of playtesting! Yeah we have a few cool new options that would have been great on a 2e chassis. But you need to understand that this is WHFRP my good fellow! And as we all know you can't release an edition of WHFRP that actually does what it says on the tin, what?

In each case the IP were taken over by people who didn't really get why fixing known issues for the old fans, and attracting new fans by appealing to normie gamers  might actually be a good idea...

Quote from: Jaeger on April 13, 2021, 01:35:21 PM
Same with Vampire/WoD. So what do the IP holders do when the 20th anniversary release is relatively successful?

Heaven forbid they give the customer base what it wants with a updated and streamlined version of Vampire the Masquerade where the known system issues are actually addressed. Nooooo! What the fanbase really wants is our new expression of what it means to be a woe is me monster!

ROTFL! Bring back the World of Darkness in a way that the old fans can get behind? Such nonsense! Vampire is a Storytelling Game for snowflake auteurs... Not for the unwashed masses who want to play katanas and trenchcoats!

Like what 5th Edition did to Vampire. I shudder to think what White Wolf is gonna do to Werewolf, my favorite line.

Quote from: Renegade_Productions on April 13, 2021, 05:55:30 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on April 13, 2021, 01:35:21 PM
Same with Vampire/WoD. So what do the IP holders do when the 20th anniversary release is relatively successful?

Heaven forbid they give the customer base what it wants with a updated and streamlined version of Vampire the Masquerade where the known system issues are actually addressed. Nooooo! What the fanbase really wants is our new expression of what it means to be a woe is me monster!

ROTFL! Bring back the World of Darkness in a way that the old fans can get behind? Such nonsense! Vampire is a Storytelling Game for snowflake auteurs... Not for the unwashed masses who want to play katanas and trenchcoats!

Like what 5th Edition did to Vampire. I shudder to think what White Wolf is gonna do to Werewolf, my favorite line.

License the IP to a reputable game company for them to produce, thus giving long term fans an edition they enjoy and allowing new gamers to become fans?

Quote from: horsesoldier on April 14, 2021, 09:07:05 AM

Quote from: Renegade_Productions on April 13, 2021, 05:55:30 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on April 13, 2021, 01:35:21 PM
Same with Vampire/WoD. So what do the IP holders do when the 20th anniversary release is relatively successful?

Heaven forbid they give the customer base what it wants with a updated and streamlined version of Vampire the Masquerade where the known system issues are actually addressed. Nooooo! What the fanbase really wants is our new expression of what it means to be a woe is me monster!

ROTFL! Bring back the World of Darkness in a way that the old fans can get behind? Such nonsense! Vampire is a Storytelling Game for snowflake auteurs... Not for the unwashed masses who want to play katanas and trenchcoats!

Like what 5th Edition did to Vampire. I shudder to think what White Wolf is gonna do to Werewolf, my favorite line.

License the IP to a reputable game company for them to produce, thus giving long term fans an edition they enjoy and allowing new gamers to become fans?

That's like asking Bethesda to give the Fallout IP to pre-2012 Obsidian, or Blizzard to stop sucking up to China. Honestly, I'm satisfied with sticking to W20/1st Edition Forsaken and going no later than either.

Quote from: Renegade_Productions on April 14, 2021, 02:12:16 PM
That's like asking Bethesda to give the Fallout IP to pre-2012 Obsidian, or Blizzard to stop sucking up to China. Honestly, I'm satisfied with sticking to W20/1st Edition Forsaken and going no later than either.

Yeah, it wasn't hard to snag the few good ideas out of V5 and reverse engineer them onto V20.

The only good bits from my perspective being;
- a more consistent attribute spread (just as the CoD power, precision and resistance were superior).

- making Generation a trade off instead of something you spend background points on (as written, 5 points for 8th Gen is a power gamer's wet dream and literally the best investment you'll ever make in your PC)

- Banes (with severity based on generation) vs. the V20 clan weaknesses.

A few of the individual discipline powers were also better implementations of prior ones, but as a whole, V5 was hot garbage with a "One True Wayist" design instead of the toolkit of prior editions.

Honestly, it wouldn't even be hard to snag the few good bits off of CoD, V5 and the chassis of V20, slap a new mythology (with different bloodlines in place of clans) on top and have a functional system free and clear of the woke corporate drama.

That said, as I shared with BoxCrayonTales in his hacking the Storyteller system thread over in design and development, I don't think playing the monster (particularly the emo VtM variety) is particularly in line with the zeitgeist (nor is Hollywood which is why their woke garbage keeps failing). When times get tough, people don't feel sympathy for the predators (which worked during the halcyon days of the 90s when our teens had to invent traumas because their lives were so good compared to the past)... they want heroes who stop the predators.

So the real game to make in the present age would be a "Hunters of the Damned" type setting where playing someone suffering under the curse of vampirism or lycanthropy are optional types of hunters, but the gist would be taking the fight to the monsters (who stand as proxies for the crony multinationals who rape the middle and lower classes with the blessings of a bought off government, the eco-terrorists preaching genocide and dragging the survivors back to the stone age to 'save the planet' and the Satanic anti-Western racists who think tearing down civilization will somehow create a utopia... or basically a game where the White Wolf versions of vampires, werewolves and witches/mages are again the bad guys).

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 14, 2021, 03:30:29 PM

Quote from: Renegade_Productions on April 14, 2021, 02:12:16 PM
That's like asking Bethesda to give the Fallout IP to pre-2012 Obsidian, or Blizzard to stop sucking up to China. Honestly, I'm satisfied with sticking to W20/1st Edition Forsaken and going no later than either.

Yeah, it wasn't hard to snag the few good ideas out of V5 and reverse engineer them onto V20.

The only good bits from my perspective being;
- a more consistent attribute spread (just as the CoD power, precision and resistance were superior).

- making Generation a trade off instead of something you spend background points on (as written, 5 points for 8th Gen is a power gamer's wet dream and literally the best investment you'll ever make in your PC)

- Banes (with severity based on generation) vs. the V20 clan weaknesses.

A few of the individual discipline powers were also better implementations of prior ones, but as a whole, V5 was hot garbage with a "One True Wayist" design instead of the toolkit of prior editions.

Honestly, it wouldn't even be hard to snag the few good bits off of CoD, V5 and the chassis of V20, slap a new mythology (with different bloodlines in place of clans) on top and have a functional system free and clear of the woke corporate drama.

That said, as I shared with BoxCrayonTales in his hacking the Storyteller system thread over in design and development, I don't think playing the monster (particularly the emo VtM variety) is particularly in line with the zeitgeist (nor is Hollywood which is why their woke garbage keeps failing). When times get tough, people don't feel sympathy for the predators (which worked during the halcyon days of the 90s when our teens had to invent traumas because their lives were so good compared to the past)... they want heroes who stop the predators.

So the real game to make in the present age would be a "Hunters of the Damned" type setting where playing someone suffering under the curse of vampirism or lycanthropy are optional types of hunters, but the gist would be taking the fight to the monsters (who stand as proxies for the crony multinationals who rape the middle and lower classes with the blessings of a bought off government, the eco-terrorists preaching genocide and dragging the survivors back to the stone age to 'save the planet' and the Satanic anti-Western racists who think tearing down civilization will somehow create a utopia... or basically a game where the White Wolf versions of vampires, werewolves and witches/mages are again the bad guys).

What underlying system would you use? Take in mind I never played anything from the Vampire line, so if it's their system you'd need to specify the mechanics.

I'm asking because I have in the backburner such a game, with OSR chasis.

And indeed you could play a "good" monster, but only in sofar the PC works to protect humans and against it's own kind.

I haven't figured a way to have a good vampire tho, best thing I have managed is a Damphir, postulating they can drink blood other than human while full vampires can't.

Weres are much easier, you manage to retain your human mind, thus only those who were already monsters or on the road to becoming one (prior to being bitten), or those who loose their human mind to the wolf become predators, granted, the percentage of those who manage not to become monsters is tiny (in my setting) IIRC about 5%.

Witches are born, the female is 99% of the time the one with powers, males with powers are 85% of the time dead before puberty, those who survive are 95% of the time way weaker than the females. They are divided between white and black witches, strong witchcraft requires sacrifice and or pain, this means blood, torture, killing. White witches are usually weaker than black ones because of the nature of witchcraft and are often used as sacrifice by the black witches to harvest their power. A white witch doesn't need to be defensless tho, it all depends on the creativity of the player to justify the increase in power of a spell without torturing/killing someone.

Not sure about including Wizards as a different beast because I haven't figured out how to do so yet.

Then there's the Fey, those are like the brothers grimm portrayed, they eat children, pets, etc.

Other monsters include the Wendigo, and other cryptids appropriate for the setting, or changed to fit it.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 14, 2021, 03:30:29 PM

Quote from: Renegade_Productions on April 14, 2021, 02:12:16 PM
That's like asking Bethesda to give the Fallout IP to pre-2012 Obsidian, or Blizzard to stop sucking up to China. Honestly, I'm satisfied with sticking to W20/1st Edition Forsaken and going no later than either.

Yeah, it wasn't hard to snag the few good ideas out of V5 and reverse engineer them onto V20.

The only good bits from my perspective being;
- a more consistent attribute spread (just as the CoD power, precision and resistance were superior).

- making Generation a trade off instead of something you spend background points on (as written, 5 points for 8th Gen is a power gamer's wet dream and literally the best investment you'll ever make in your PC)

- Banes (with severity based on generation) vs. the V20 clan weaknesses.

A few of the individual discipline powers were also better implementations of prior ones, but as a whole, V5 was hot garbage with a "One True Wayist" design instead of the toolkit of prior editions.

Honestly, it wouldn't even be hard to snag the few good bits off of CoD, V5 and the chassis of V20, slap a new mythology (with different bloodlines in place of clans) on top and have a functional system free and clear of the woke corporate drama.

Oh, yes. I so want that gone, more so now with everything I've seen out of V5 and Forsaken 2nd. Gag me.

(Might as well say here though that I am attempting just that myself; I'm more than happy to make a post here with what I have if there's any interest in playtesting.)

QuoteThat said, as I shared with BoxCrayonTales in his hacking the Storyteller system thread over in design and development, I don't think playing the monster (particularly the emo VtM variety) is particularly in line with the zeitgeist (nor is Hollywood which is why their woke garbage keeps failing). When times get tough, people don't feel sympathy for the predators (which worked during the halcyon days of the 90s when our teens had to invent traumas because their lives were so good compared to the past)... they want heroes who stop the predators.

So the real game to make in the present age would be a "Hunters of the Damned" type setting where playing someone suffering under the curse of vampirism or lycanthropy are optional types of hunters, but the gist would be taking the fight to the monsters (who stand as proxies for the crony multinationals who rape the middle and lower classes with the blessings of a bought off government, the eco-terrorists preaching genocide and dragging the survivors back to the stone age to 'save the planet' and the Satanic anti-Western racists who think tearing down civilization will somehow create a utopia... or basically a game where the White Wolf versions of vampires, werewolves and witches/mages are again the bad guys).

I saw his post pretty much when I registered, and it's a noble idea. As is playing Hunters who are taking the fight back to the evils in the darkness, or the more open monsters we're seeing now.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2021, 03:49:10 PM
What underlying system would you use? Take in mind I never played anything from the Vampire line, so if it's their system you'd need to specify the mechanics.

For base mechanics, the easiest thing to rip-off would be the Chronicles of Darkness LARP rules that replaced the dice pools with a 1d10+attribute+ability vs. a target number (normally 10 for the LARP, but you make that moderate difficulty and add lower and higher and opposed checks to reflect difficulty).

It'd be pretty easy to adjust from that to a d20-based mechanical system. World of Darkness was the antithesis of random stat generation and always featured a unified task resolution system though so I don't know how well it'd fly with the fans left behind by the wok-ist V5 if you bolted it to an OSR chassis though. Being able to tailor precisely the character you want is a big part of the appeal.

To save some typing I'm also going to drop some quotes of myself and you can click through to reach more of it in the relevant thread if desired.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 20, 2021, 03:23:10 PM
So here's the gist of it, each lineage of vampire is a bloodthirsty tyrant from history (Vlad Tepes, Rasputin, Caligula, etc.) who made a deal with the Devil for supernatural power and immortality. The thirst for blood and specific strengths and weaknesses that distinguish each lineage are the result of the specific pact made by the line's progenitor. These are akin to VtM's Antediluvians; beings of great power and the founders of their lines who, unlike their descendants, chose their damnation. Others can be infected by the vampire unwillingly, but can be restored by completely rejecting their sins.

Which is the next part of the lore, each of a vampire's strengths and weaknesses are defined by the seven deadly sins (ex. Wrath has vampiric abilities related to physical prowess and the weakness of a terrible temper, Lust has abilities related to mesmerizing and seducing victims and a weakness of obsession with beautiful mortals, etc.).

In terms of game mechanics, the Sins would be akin to VtMs Disciplines. The stronger their allegiance to a given sin, the greater their ability with its powers and the stronger the weakness becomes). The more that sin is rejected, the weaker the power, but also the lesser the weakness... and if you can reject all of them completely you can even become mortal again.

As part of this world, I'd define witchcraft/sorcery and lycanthropy as linked to two particular sins since, in general myths, the lines between vampire, witch and werewolf are thin to nonexistent. Similarly, pacts with the Devil imply the existence of evil spirits/demons and, as an easy step, ghosts.

The counter source of power would be rare mortals who embody the Virtues. These are the most dangerous of the vampire hunters.

So there's your basic setup; vampires, werewolves, witches/sorcerers, ghosts, demons and miracle workers... ancient and powerful progenitors of differing lineages who pursue their agendas in the shadows of the modern* world. A "World of Darkness" without referencing the White Wolf version at all.

* or if you want a little of that Technocrat flavor, set it in the near future with mega-corps and advanced military-industrial tech as part of the setting, but instead of being "magic" it's just so expensive/experimental that only select individuals have access to it and those with access to it aren't interested in "defining reality" except in the sense of "if we can figure out the science behind immortality we can make a fortune" and "we need to kill these monsters because they pose a threat to our bottom line."

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 22, 2021, 01:16:42 AM
It was a different time.

In the early 90's the West was still riding high off the Reagan years, the fall of the Soviet Union and military success in the First Iraq War. Bill Clinton was elected promising to govern from the center left with the House and Senate flipping Republican in 1994 so it felt like there was a safe balance in government. In short, it felt like times were good and the future generally looked bright so it was safe to look to darker and more dystopian faire in our entertainment; especially by the youth of the day who had so little real stress they had to invent issues to be traumatized by.

In short, the 90's was the perfect time to rebel by embracing the gothic punk ethos of VtM because despite the dark themes, times felt safe enough to embrace the fake danger of pretending to be a vampire.

Not so today... the nation is divided, the economy in many places gutted, COVID, etc. combine to create a very uncertain world where people don't need to turn to fiction to get their share of angst... instead they're looking for an escape; a hope spot in an otherwise bleak period. These are the times that people turn to entertainment that offers up escapism and fantasy with heroes fighting for a better world.

Its no accident that, beyond just good production values, the Lord of the Rings exploded in 2001, just months after 9/11. People were looking for an escape from the bleakness of the most terrible attack on our homeland we'd ever experienced and here was a tale about goodness, courage and honor in the face of adversity.

Basically, the present day is a horrible environment to be selling cynical dystopian themed faire about monsters exploiting hapless mortals... too many identify with the hapless mortals and no longer sympathize with the monsters' "trauma" that justifies their parasitic existence.

The zeitgeist of the age is big damned heroes like D&D has always tried to cater to... and in terms of urban fantasy its the common man hunter rising up to destroy the monsters who prey on us... and not in the grim and gritty anyone can die themes of WoD titles like Hunters Hunted; Big damn hunters like Sam and Dean Winchester, Buffy (or the CW's present equivalent, Hope Mikaelson on Legacies, a spin-off leaning hard on heroic tropes and characters who do the right thing even when it sucks for them compared to the villain protagonist approach of the earlier entries in that franchise... because the writers understand times have changed).

Basically, we're not in an age when non-woke audiences want to root for monstrous monsters. The genre Paradox is pursuing is dying because there's more than enough nihilism in the real world. People don't want mechanics that make you a monster. If you want to unseat them you need to forget making vampires who fight a losing battle to hold onto their humanity and give us Angel, Alucard from Castlevania or the generally heroic vampires, werewolves and witches of the Salvitore School who protect humanity from monsters.

In short, the zeitgeist of the day isn't "Vampire"... its "Vampire Hunter" where the vampires and others that go bump in the night embody rich, powerful and corrupt who casually inflict suffering on the populace for their own gain and the Hunters efforts are not in vain and doomed to accomplish nothing in the long run.

Until you abandon the core premise that the goal should be playing a monstrous monster vs. one trying to redeem themselves (and with hope of actually doing so... which is where Hunter the Reckoning fell down as its power was tied to increasing insanity before dying in a blaze of glory that won't make a long term difference) you'll never unseat Paradox/White Wolf because they're so much better established in the niche of "its okay to be a monster."

At least that's my take on why no one's been able to unseat them. Its fundamentally because no one's really tried to produce the right weapon to do it.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 22, 2021, 04:47:56 PM
The desire to have some sort of connective tissue between the various supernaturals is why I leaned hard into Vampires, Werewolves and Witches (as distinct from general spellcasters) all receiving their powers from ancient deals with the Devil, with demonic spirits and lost souls/ghosts/fae (if you go by the oldest sources the fairies were basically a particular category of long dead ghosts) as natural extensions and angels/divine gifts/theurgy as a logical heroic counterpoints.

I could also see adding Dhampirs of the half-mortal variety to the mix under the general principle of "God turns the schemes of Devil to His ends" in that the children of vampires are granted special gifts to hunt them.

By the same token you could have "Merlins" (by lore a half-demon whose mother baptized him as an infant so that he would not become the Antichrist) as essentially "redeemed witches."

Something along the lines of "The Knights of Saint Christopher" from the Netflix series "The Order" might be a way to have a more heroic werewolf... basically mortals who take up a portion of the werewolf curse by wearing the skins of slain werewolves (maybe the heroic variety would then be called "skin-changers" vs. the monstrous "werewolves").

Throw in "wonderworkers" as those who wield outright divine gifts against evil and "survivors" as mere mortals who hunt the monsters anyway and you'd have 5-ish categories to build around "Dhampirs, Merlins, Skinchangers, Wonderworkers and Survivors."

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 24, 2021, 12:36:32 PM
Another random thought about my "all the monster progenitors made deals with the Devil" angle... if you wanted to tweak WW's nose a bit; you could include Cain as one of them, but with the twist that he's just one of many progenitors and no stronger than Dracula (and probably weaker, what's one murder in the heat of the moment compared to the systematic slaughter inflicted by Vlad Tepes?).

This could also be used to highlight that the strength of a given monster isn't its age, but the degree it embraces the powers of Hell.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 14, 2021, 06:35:44 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2021, 03:49:10 PM
What underlying system would you use? Take in mind I never played anything from the Vampire line, so if it's their system you'd need to specify the mechanics.

For base mechanics, the easiest thing to rip-off would be the Chronicles of Darkness LARP rules that replaced the dice pools with a 1d10+attribute+ability vs. a target number (normally 10 for the LARP, but you make that moderate difficulty and add lower and higher and opposed checks to reflect difficulty).

It'd be pretty easy to adjust from that to a d20-based mechanical system. World of Darkness was the antithesis of random stat generation and always featured a unified task resolution system though so I don't know how well it'd fly with the fans left behind by the wok-ist V5 if you bolted it to an OSR chassis though. Being able to tailor precisely the character you want is a big part of the appeal.

Well, choosing not to use the random stat generation can't be that hard. Lets say you get a number of points to adjudicate as you choose to each stat. Sure, it's not OSR, but in a same game you could do it that way just like ppl choose to use 4d6 drop lowest arrange to taste.

If that's the best argument against using an OSR chasis I don't see how it's a problem.

Also, who said anything about getting the WoD fans to drop that and play mine? I guess that is almost never going to happen, they will:

a) Stick to whatever older version they like and maybe houserule some mechanics they like from newer versions.

or

b) Keep buying whatever crap the publisher puts out, complain and do nothing else.

And those who choose to switch to another game will be a very small % of the total.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2021, 06:48:24 PM

Well, choosing not to use the random stat generation can't be that hard. Lets say you get a number of points to adjudicate as you choose to each stat. Sure, it's not OSR, but in a same game you could do it that way just like ppl choose to use 4d6 drop lowest arrange to taste.

If that's the best argument against using an OSR chasis I don't see how it's a problem.

Also, who said anything about getting the WoD fans to drop that and play mine? I guess that is almost never going to happen, they will:

a) Stick to whatever older version they like and maybe houserule some mechanics they like from newer versions.

or

b) Keep buying whatever crap the publisher puts out, complain and do nothing else.

And those who choose to switch to another game will be a very small % of the total.

The eternal paradox of wanting to make stuff that gets away from the wokeness that is infesting the things we like.

Personally, I would be less interested in attracting the WoD players over getting OSR or other players to try the system out. Good word of mouth from them could turn WoD fans to what others are making, and if the system is enough of a toolbox, what's to stop them from taking what they liked about a WoD line like Werewolf and bringing a few things over to the new system?

White Wolf even encouraged it with a conversion kit once NWoD came out, and homebrews are still fair game.

Quote from: Renegade_Productions on April 14, 2021, 06:55:08 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2021, 06:48:24 PM

Well, choosing not to use the random stat generation can't be that hard. Lets say you get a number of points to adjudicate as you choose to each stat. Sure, it's not OSR, but in a same game you could do it that way just like ppl choose to use 4d6 drop lowest arrange to taste.

If that's the best argument against using an OSR chasis I don't see how it's a problem.

Also, who said anything about getting the WoD fans to drop that and play mine? I guess that is almost never going to happen, they will:

a) Stick to whatever older version they like and maybe houserule some mechanics they like from newer versions.

or

b) Keep buying whatever crap the publisher puts out, complain and do nothing else.

And those who choose to switch to another game will be a very small % of the total.

The eternal paradox of wanting to make stuff that gets away from the wokeness that is infesting the things we like.

Personally, I would be less interested in attracting the WoD players over getting OSR or other players to try the system out. Good word of mouth from them could turn WoD fans to what others are making, and if the system is enough of a toolbox, what's to stop them from taking what they liked about a WoD line like Werewolf and bringing a few things over to the new system?

White Wolf even encouraged it with a conversion kit once NWoD came out, and homebrews are still fair game.

100% Agreed, An OSR game already has a target demographic: People that like to play OSR games.

If WoD fans want to try it by all means, I want as many people playing my games as possible, but my game is not going to be a WoD clone, because who has the time to clone it and make sure you don't get into legal trouble?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2021, 07:02:29 PM

100% Agreed, An OSR game already has a target demographic: People that like to play OSR games.

If WoD fans want to try it by all means, I want as many people playing my games as possible, but my game is not going to be a WoD clone, because who has the time to clone it and make sure you don't get into legal trouble?

I believe you can make similar systems, just not use any lore or specific sets of words associated with an existing system.

Case in point: SPECIAL and CLASSIC

SPECIAL is the Fallout system of Attributes.
CLASSIC is the Wasteland 2 system.

Similar ideas, and they function similarly, but Bethesda has no grounds on which to legally come after InXile for the idea because it's a system and doesn't reference any Fallout lore or specific names.

Quote from: Renegade_Productions on April 14, 2021, 07:11:56 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2021, 07:02:29 PM

100% Agreed, An OSR game already has a target demographic: People that like to play OSR games.

If WoD fans want to try it by all means, I want as many people playing my games as possible, but my game is not going to be a WoD clone, because who has the time to clone it and make sure you don't get into legal trouble?

I believe you can make similar systems, just not use any lore or specific sets of words associated with an existing system.

Case in point: SPECIAL and CLASSIC

SPECIAL is the Fallout system of Attributes.
CLASSIC is the Wasteland 2 system.

Similar ideas, and they function similarly, but Bethesda has no grounds on which to legally come after InXile for the idea because it's a system and doesn't reference any Fallout lore or specific names.

Yeah, but a clone goes beyond the system, it needs a very similar lore, I don't have the time to neither clone the system much less try and make a setting simmilar enough but distinct enough to avoid legal issues.

I'm sticking with the system I know and love, hacking it to make a different game.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2021, 07:32:28 PMYeah, but a clone goes beyond the system, it needs a very similar lore, I don't have the time to neither clone the system much less try and make a setting simmilar enough but distinct enough to avoid legal issues.

I'm sticking with the system I know and love, hacking it to make a different game.

Fair enough. Can't blame you, either.

Quote from: horsesoldier on April 14, 2021, 09:07:05 AM
...
License the IP to a reputable game company for them to produce, thus giving long term fans an edition they enjoy and allowing new gamers to become fans?

A 50/50 toss up.

Look at Cubicle 7. Regarded as a reputable company, yet look what they went and did with WHFRP 4e...

Quote from: horsesoldier on April 14, 2021, 09:07:05 AM
License the IP to a reputable game company for them to produce, thus giving long term fans an edition they enjoy and allowing new gamers to become fans?

To be fair, from a business standpoint they probably have to change enough to justify people buying the new edition rather than using the old one.

I'm not saying that I'm a fan of the changes they did make - but I can definitely see why they would need to make changes.

The Blessed & The Heir are classes for my monster hunters (not the real title I still don't have one) OSR game.

Poop thought I had to redo the attachments

Quote from: Jaeger on April 14, 2021, 10:06:51 PM

Quote from: horsesoldier on April 14, 2021, 09:07:05 AM
...
License the IP to a reputable game company for them to produce, thus giving long term fans an edition they enjoy and allowing new gamers to become fans?

A 50/50 toss up.

Look at Cubicle 7. Regarded as a reputable company, yet look what they went and did with WHFRP 4e...

What did they do to 4e?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2021, 11:35:36 PM
The Blessed & The Heir are classes for my monster hunters (not the real title I still don't have one) OSR game.

Well, going spells (miracles) per level and hit dice definitely means no one will confuse your system for the one used in Vampire the Masquerade.

Personally, I don't think D&D-ish leveled spell slots per day, armor and weapon proficiencies, and an almost non-existent skills system particularly fits the genre very well.

In terms of magic typically seen in urban fantasy a mix of at-will, mana/health burn, and more lengthy rituals for bigger effects would probably fit the overall genre better.

Similarly, there's a reason just about every modern or sci-fi setting system of any note is skill-based rather than level-based; there's just so much greater focus on things outside of fighting to survive and the level of proficiency required for most fields is much higher than medieval occupations. You need a way to handle the PC who went to medical school before learning of the supernatural, or who was an engineer or chemist, or a construction worker, or a librarian (overcoming many monsters in the fiction is matter of identifying the creature and its weaknesses... so research, particularly in dusty old books most libraries keep in the stacks these days if they still have them at all)... not just priests and soldiers and thieves.

Likewise, while modern armor can certainly help you survive a firefight, not many people outside military and law enforcement personnel use it regularly and, frankly, in the modern world, going around wearing anything more than a concealed vest is going to draw LOTS of attention (and law enforcement to at least ask what you think you're doing). And even the tactical stuff doesn't require nearly the training to make it a class feature you balance performance around (nor is Armor Class something I'd use in modern combat... Parrying/Dodging, Evasive Action/Serpentine, Cover (and cover fire) and Concealment are going to play a much greater role in defense for the most part).

Likewise, HD aren't nearly as good at modelling urban fantasy combat... particularly monster hunting. Your "Combat Machine" feature isn't going to see much use when you're hunting A vampire or A werewolf... both of whom are many times stronger and faster and more deadly than any mortal... basically Combat Machine is only going to be good against human mooks, not the monsters you intend to have them hunting.

This is why I said OSR just isn't a good fit for urban fantasy. Its too wedded to certain D&D-isms that really only exist in D&D and D&D spin-off material and are a poor fit at emulating anything outside that genre.

D&D Urban Fantasy https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/170609/Skyscrapers--Sorcery-Preview

Quote from: S'mon on April 15, 2021, 06:10:09 PM
D&D Urban Fantasy https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/170609/Skyscrapers--Sorcery-Preview

I'm not saying you can't do it... I just don't find it a good fit for the genre.

You can slap the words "Heroes Unlimited" onto the Palladium System and call it a superhero RPG. That doesn't make it even remotely emulate the genre.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 15, 2021, 05:59:36 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2021, 11:35:36 PM
The Blessed & The Heir are classes for my monster hunters (not the real title I still don't have one) OSR game.

Well, going spells (miracles) per level and hit dice definitely means no one will confuse your system for the one used in Vampire the Masquerade.

Personally, I don't think D&D-ish leveled spell slots per day, armor and weapon proficiencies, and an almost non-existent skills system particularly fits the genre very well.

In terms of magic typically seen in urban fantasy a mix of at-will, mana/health burn, and more lengthy rituals for bigger effects would probably fit the overall genre better.

Similarly, there's a reason just about every modern or sci-fi setting system of any note is skill-based rather than level-based; there's just so much greater focus on things outside of fighting to survive and the level of proficiency required for most fields is much higher than medieval occupations. You need a way to handle the PC who went to medical school before learning of the supernatural, or who was an engineer or chemist, or a construction worker, or a librarian (overcoming many monsters in the fiction is matter of identifying the creature and its weaknesses... so research, particularly in dusty old books most libraries keep in the stacks these days if they still have them at all)... not just priests and soldiers and thieves.

Likewise, while modern armor can certainly help you survive a firefight, not many people outside military and law enforcement personnel use it regularly and, frankly, in the modern world, going around wearing anything more than a concealed vest is going to draw LOTS of attention (and law enforcement to at least ask what you think you're doing). And even the tactical stuff doesn't require nearly the training to make it a class feature you balance performance around (nor is Armor Class something I'd use in modern combat... Parrying/Dodging, Evasive Action/Serpentine, Cover (and cover fire) and Concealment are going to play a much greater role in defense for the most part).

Likewise, HD aren't nearly as good at modelling urban fantasy combat... particularly monster hunting. Your "Combat Machine" feature isn't going to see much use when you're hunting A vampire or A werewolf... both of whom are many times stronger and faster and more deadly than any mortal... basically Combat Machine is only going to be good against human mooks, not the monsters you intend to have them hunting.

This is why I said OSR just isn't a good fit for urban fantasy. Its too wedded to certain D&D-isms that really only exist in D&D and D&D spin-off material and are a poor fit at emulating anything outside that genre.

And from what you read in the classes you already know what type of magic system I'm using how?

You don't like the system for the genre, that's a valid opinion, but like the dude said...That's YOUR opinion man.

As for emulating WoD not my goal, my goal is totally different.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 15, 2021, 06:23:46 PM
And from what you read in the classes you already know what type of magic system I'm using how?

Because the description in one of the classes you put the link to above literally says "miracles per day" and has "miracle levels."

That's LITERALLY D&D style casting.

QuoteAs for emulating WoD not my goal, my goal is totally different.

I'm not talking about emulating the World of Darkness... I'm talking about emulating the urban fantasy genre; The Dresden Files, Anita Blake (before it turned into porn), Monster Hunter International, Anne Rice, Fables, The Magicians, Blade, Buffy/Angel, Supernatural, Grimm, The Vampire Diaries/The Originals/Legacies, etc.

Can you really tell me that the typical D&D-isms of the OSR are a good fit for those?

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 15, 2021, 06:39:00 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 15, 2021, 06:23:46 PM
And from what you read in the classes you already know what type of magic system I'm using how?

Because the description in one of the classes you put the link to above literally says "miracles per day" and has "miracle levels."

That's LITERALLY D&D style casting.

QuoteAs for emulating WoD not my goal, my goal is totally different.

I'm not talking about emulating the World of Darkness... I'm talking about emulating the urban fantasy genre; The Dresden Files, Anita Blake (before it turned into porn), Monster Hunter International, Anne Rice, Fables, The Magicians, Blade, Buffy/Angel, Supernatural, Grimm, The Vampire Diaries/The Originals/Legacies, etc.

Can you really tell me that the typical D&D-isms of the OSR are a good fit for those?

Right, I posted the old build, no, I'm not using slots or spells per day.

I don't see why not, but again, that's MY opinion and the other is YOUR opinion.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on April 14, 2021, 10:23:30 PMTo be fair, from a business standpoint they probably have to change enough to justify people buying the new edition rather than using the old one.

I'm not saying that I'm a fan of the changes they did make - but I can definitely see why they would need to make changes.

This is a false marketing idea thats been around a long time. It actually loses customers every time.

The idea is that you will gain new customers and and some extra from anyone who had a prior edition. Moreso if you can force them to via organized play. This combined with a new marketing fad of "Fans are bad. We must get rid of older players." and its a train wreck waiting to happen. And it allways does. WOTC learned this the hard way. Oh wait. They are obsessed with this and never learn.

The better model is to make small updates to the system and roll them out in new print runs of the same book and draw new players in while retaining your established one. The rest comes from supplements.

Quote from: Omega on April 17, 2021, 10:28:48 AM

This is a false marketing idea thats been around a long time. It actually loses customers every time.

The idea is that you will gain new customers and and some extra from anyone who had a prior edition. Moreso if you can force them to via organized play. This combined with a new marketing fad of "Fans are bad. We must get rid of older players." and its a train wreck waiting to happen. And it allways does. WOTC learned this the hard way. Oh wait. They are obsessed with this and never learn.

The better model is to make small updates to the system and roll them out in new print runs of the same book and draw new players in while retaining your established one. The rest comes from supplements.

The company that best learned this lesson was Coca-Cola.

After the New Coke fiasco, they haven't really messed with the system that much, besides creating a few new flavors and clearly marketing them as extra stuff, not a replacement for the main fare.

Luckily for me, since Vanilla Coke is their only product I find not to be vomit inducing.

(https://i.ibb.co/QnQBkk6/1621441718403.png)

(https://i.ibb.co/2NBKtJ9/1621441700664.png)

(https://i.ibb.co/RP2xQjX/E1w-P2-ZOXo-Ao1-Y6y.jpg)

Huh.

No response to "Only 13% of players are 40 years old or older" and "A majority of players are under 29 years old?"

No response to "Even though we don't have exact numbers from the TSR era, we can safely say D&D is more popular now than it has ever been in it's 47 year history?"

Quote from: Mistwell on May 20, 2021, 05:46:05 PM
Huh.

No response to "Only 13% of players are 40 years old or older" and "A majority of players are under 29 years old?"

No response to "Even though we don't have exact numbers from the TSR era, we can safely say D&D is more popular now than it has ever been in it's 47 year history?"

So before I quit playing it last year, I was part of an under-represented minority of players? A minority that they don't really seems to want to market it towards? I'm not really surprised.

That 'less than 1% is other/nonbinary' must be driving the SJWs insane.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 20, 2021, 05:46:05 PM
Huh.

No response to "Only 13% of players are 40 years old or older" and "A majority of players are under 29 years old?"

No response to "Even though we don't have exact numbers from the TSR era, we can safely say D&D is more popular now than it has ever been in it's 47 year history?"

So what?

Check it out; 5e D&D is doing great!

In other news: Water is wet.

But, D&D is more popular than it has ever been!

Yeah. No shit.

But, but... Did you know that the largest playing demographic for 5e D&D during a big pop-culture upswing in popularity is college age young adults!

Quell surprise.


You really need a press release for all that?

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2021, 06:16:57 PM
That 'less than 1% is other/nonbinary' must be driving the SJWs insane every one of us that is on the right side of history to feel ashamed!

Thank you for pointing out this serious issue!

Clearly 5e D&D is doing a poor job of inclusion and representation to have the other/nonbinary demographic so underrepresented in the player base.

There is obviously too much white supremacy and toxic masculinity still in the game.

We need to Stop. Think. And Listen, to the other/nonbinary players of 5e about what we can do to make them feel more comfortable at the gaming table.

Time to brainstorm folks.

What steps can you take (Even if it means taking a step back.) to better empower the other/nonbinary players out there to join your game?

Discuss...

Quote from: Mistwell on May 20, 2021, 05:46:05 PM
Huh.

No response to "Only 13% of players are 40 years old or older" and "A majority of players are under 29 years old?"

No response to "Even though we don't have exact numbers from the TSR era, we can safely say D&D is more popular now than it has ever been in it's 47 year history?"

Luckily, you were able to respond to yourself. 

Quote from: Jaeger on May 20, 2021, 07:40:51 PM

Thank you for pointing out this serious issue!

Clearly 5e D&D is doing a poor job of inclusion and representation to have the other/nonbinary demographic so underrepresented in the player base.

There is obviously too much white supremacy and toxic masculinity still in the game.

We need to Stop. Think. And Listen, to the other/nonbinary players of 5e about what we can do to make them feel more comfortable at the gaming table.

Time to brainstorm folks.

What steps can you take (Even if it means taking a step back.) to better empower the other/nonbinary players out there to join your game?

Discuss...

Why would I ask some rando stranger to join my Friends and Family game?   Its just not going to happen :p

Quote from: Krugus on May 20, 2021, 08:25:46 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 20, 2021, 07:40:51 PM

Thank you for pointing out this serious issue!

Clearly 5e D&D is doing a poor job of inclusion and representation to have the other/nonbinary demographic so underrepresented in the player base.

There is obviously too much white supremacy and toxic masculinity still in the game.

We need to Stop. Think. And Listen, to the other/nonbinary players of 5e about what we can do to make them feel more comfortable at the gaming table.

Time to brainstorm folks.

What steps can you take (Even if it means taking a step back.) to better empower the other/nonbinary players out there to join your game?

Discuss...

Why would I ask some rando stranger to join my Friends and Family game?   Its just not going to happen :p

But, but, but... Bigotry!!!!!

.

Quote from: Krugus on May 20, 2021, 08:25:46 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 20, 2021, 07:40:51 PM

Thank you for pointing out this serious issue!

Clearly 5e D&D is doing a poor job of inclusion and representation to have the other/nonbinary demographic so underrepresented in the player base.

There is obviously too much white supremacy and toxic masculinity still in the game.

We need to Stop. Think. And Listen, to the other/nonbinary players of 5e about what we can do to make them feel more comfortable at the gaming table.

Time to brainstorm folks.

What steps can you take (Even if it means taking a step back.) to better empower the other/nonbinary players out there to join your game?

Discuss...

Why would I ask some rando stranger to join my Friends and Family game?   Its just not going to happen :p

But WOTC says we have to!!!  And Paizo does too!!!

Quote from: Jaeger on May 20, 2021, 09:34:33 PM

But, but, but... Bigotry!!!!!

.

They keep using that word.  I don't think it means what they think it means :p

Quote from: Jam The MF on May 20, 2021, 09:37:16 PM

But WOTC says we have to!!!  And Paizo does too!!!

Well I'm part of the old guard (will be 52 in July) I don't think they care what I do or think anymore since ESP since I'm a SWM!   Straight. White. Male.

Who is taking these surveys?  I have yet to take one and have bought a bunch of 5e stuff.  There could be millions of guys like me (40+) who play but never get to take the surveys.

Or they could just be making stuff up.  Filling in the blanks with what they think is right.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on May 20, 2021, 10:00:27 PM
Who is taking these surveys?  I have yet to take one and have bought a bunch of 5e stuff.  There could be millions of guys like me (40+) who play but never get to take the surveys.

Or they could just be making stuff up.  Filling in the blanks with what they think is right.

Greetings!

Yeah, exactly! I don't have a lot of trust in much of anything that WOTC says or claims. Yes, my own "anecdotal" experience tells me that their *research* is full of shit. I'd say at least 25% of the current gamer population are 40 and over. There's a good number of millennials and younger adolescents and kids picking up gaming, for certain, but I wouldn't say the under 30 set are the majority at all. At least half of the people I see playing are over 30, and most of them are over 40, with many over 50. Probably a 3/3/4 of 10 division there.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I bet the people who buy 5 or more hardcover 5E books, are predominantly 40+ years old.

Those of us reporting "lots of gamers I know are like me" (older than WotC results) may have our own selection biases.

My 19-year-old son has been running or playing in three or four games per week through most of last year. Everyone involved has been under 25, except when he was a player in my campaign.

I'm 48, DMed or played less than one game per week over that time (among all the groups I've played with there have been no more than 40 sessions in the last 60 weeks), with participant average age closer to 40.

Quote from: Jam The MF on May 20, 2021, 11:57:40 PM
I bet the people who buy 5 or more 5E books, are predominantly 40+ years old.

Are you specifically referring to the hard copies of the books? If so, then I'm more inclined to agree with you.

I know several young people that have gotten into D&D 5E.  Every last one of them got into the game initially by playing in a game with someone older.  Of course that is not a representative sample.

I'll bet you that if you bothered to measure it, the "retention" period for sticking with the game is going to be stronger for the people that I know than it is for the population at large.  Maybe because the people with which they first got exposure to the game aren't freaking idiots.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 21, 2021, 08:53:56 AM
I know several young people that have gotten into D&D 5E.  Every last one of them got into the game initially by playing in a game with someone older.  Of course that is not a representative sample.

I'll bet you that if you bothered to measure it, the "retention" period for sticking with the game is going to be stronger for the people that I know than it is for the population at large.  Maybe because the people with which they first got exposure to the game aren't freaking idiots.

Quoted for truth.

Back in the days of AD&D you had to be smart to learn the rules.  Just playing the game required a bit more mental effort than these new streamlined rules.

Quite good news that younger players are playing and good news that women players are much more common. I see tons of younger players where I live, including my two daughters that both play once a week or more and they have lots of friends that do.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 21, 2021, 07:28:10 AM

Quote from: Jam The MF on May 20, 2021, 11:57:40 PM
I bet the people who buy 5 or more 5E books, are predominantly 40+ years old.

Are you specifically referring to the hard copies of the books? If so, then I'm more inclined to agree with you.

Yes, hardcovers.  Post edited, to reflect that now.

I suspect they are getting their "D&D Community" stats from online subscriptions and/or Adventurer's League, which would explain why it skews younger. I see a number of news articles that line up with the graphic, but nothing that gives any more detail about the source of the numbers.

They wouldn't have stats on the ages of people buying paper books, though they would have some idea about how paper books sales overlap with and/or compare to online subscriptions.

From in-person play at local conventions, my experience is that there are still plenty of older players - but then, I don't know that in-person convention play is any more representative of the overall market than online play. My son plays D&D in college with a bunch of his classmates, and based on the number of college games, I believe that it is experiencing a surge of popularity in younger players - but maybe not to the extent implied by the numbers there.

Younger players have more time to play.  I'm certain that some young players are very active in the hobby.  They want to belong to a social community, and D&D offers that.

Many people dance to the music, but someone must pay the band.  Who is shelling out the money to support the hobby?  They are the superfans, of D&D.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 21, 2021, 08:53:56 AM
I know several young people that have gotten into D&D 5E.  Every last one of them got into the game initially by playing in a game with someone older.  Of course that is not a representative sample.

Sure. And as the new players become old players, they will be the one to pass on the game to new young players.

I mean, obvious the people you know will be biased to be closer to your age, as a generalization. There are 35 year olds teaching 20 year olds to play right now, like you probably did when you were 35, right?

Are these stats coming from the surveys they do over on dnd.wizards.com?  If so, the numbers are biased to folks who bother to follow that site.  From time to time I catch they are doing one in a redit thread and give them make stuff more like AD&D answers. :P

I do have 5e, but really don't follow the constant march to more firmly establishing it as a woke medieval super-heroes game.

Quote from: Palleon on May 21, 2021, 04:09:19 PM...a woke medieval super-heroes game.

And that's what I feel like I'm playing when I get involved with 5E for the most part.

Quote from: Dropbear on May 22, 2021, 05:52:49 AM

Quote from: Palleon on May 21, 2021, 04:09:19 PM...a woke medieval super-heroes game.

And that's what I feel like I'm playing when I get involved with 5E for the most part.

I hear ya, and I do not support their recent contributions to the industry. At least the core books, and especially the Basic Rules, leave the non-gaming shit at the door.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 19, 2021, 04:25:57 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/QnQBkk6/1621441718403.png)

(https://i.ibb.co/2NBKtJ9/1621441700664.png)

(https://i.ibb.co/RP2xQjX/E1w-P2-ZOXo-Ao1-Y6y.jpg)

I'm in the D&D UK Facebook group, where the majority of posts are new players looking for a game, and new GMs looking for advice. People often give their age, and/or age & gender can be deduced from their pics. I'd say WoTC's listed demographics above closely match the demographics of new, never-played-before gamers (and would be gamers), including a small but substantial number of newbies aged 40+; I have several of these in my own online and IRL game groups - people who started playing after 40. The Facebook posters probably skew more female than the WoTC numbers, but I think that's an artefact of social media. Female posters certainly get more and more positive responses to requests for help.

I can believe that a survey on D&D Beyond gets similar numbers. But they're not capturing gamers who don't engage with the surveys. The idea that only 13% of ALL D&D players are over 40 is just laughable IMO. Sure it's not the 60%+ you might get if you surveyed message boards like this one, ENW, rpgnet et al - these definitely skew vastly older (and vastly more male). Reality has to be in between.

Quote from: FingerRod on May 22, 2021, 10:07:41 AM
I hear ya, and I do not support their recent contributions to the industry. At least the core books, and especially the Basic Rules, leave the non-gaming shit at the door.

Just as with Paizo it's best to avoid material published 2012 or later (except the Runelords reprint hardback), I think there is a cutoff point where 5e D&D goes definitively Woke and should be avoided.
Looking at the lists here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_rulebooks I'd suggest mid 2018 as the cutoff. That puts Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes before the cutoff, Waterdeep: Dragon Heist after the cutoff. I think the latter was a clear indicator of WoTC going Full Woke ("Fully Converged") under Crawford.

It says "the brand" -- 5e is the first time we have seen a DnD brand that goes into mediums outside of traditional tabletop and forays into video games.

Also -- "We haven no idea about the numbers of the TSR era, but our are better!"

If 5e is truly the most played edition, I find it appalling the lack of support they're giving all of these new players. Where's the epic 1-20 campaign? What about DM aids, like tiles? Instead they get these theme splatbooks.

Quote from: Jam The MF on May 21, 2021, 01:23:51 PM
Younger players have more time to play.

Quite true ... for now. We've come to that point in history when grognards are hitting retirement age en masse.

Quote from: horsesoldier on July 19, 2021, 01:00:06 PM
It says "the brand" -- 5e is the first time we have seen a DnD brand that goes into mediums outside of traditional tabletop and forays into video games.

I still remember a video (since deleted) of a "Secrets of TSR" panel in a PaizoCon with guys like Jeff Grubb, Stan!, Dave Gross, Wolfgang Baur and others.

In one of the segments, they talk about how close D&D was to having a movie produced by James Cameron. The reason it didn't happen? Lorraine, yes the witch herself, antagonized James Cameron when he made it clear he wanted to produce instead of direct, and that he wanted his special effects pal to direct it. His special effects pal? 4-time Oscar winner Stan Winston (if you think the live action dinos in Jurassic Park were great, think about what his dragons might have looked like).

Cameron was so pissed off by how he was treated by Lorraine that he rage quit a meeting, pulled Winston out with him, and never again was D&D close to getting a mainstream director interested in a movie project.

Quote from: Samsquantch on February 23, 2021, 12:48:50 PM

Quote from: robh on February 23, 2021, 12:33:11 PM

Quote from: TJS on February 10, 2021, 07:22:15 PM
Edit: I've seen some of this spilling over into live games.  I've seen several GMs run 5e by printing out battlemap size maps of dungeons, cutting them up and progressively laying them out as the party move around with the miniatures never leaving the table.

You say that like it's a bad thing  ;)
I am a huge fan of figures on the table for RPGs but prefer one of the modular 2.5D or 3D dungeon terrain sets to maps.

And that is how I came to own three 3d printers... I couldn't justify buying Dwarven Forge stuff anymore.

I got a big box of Dwarven Forge blocks at a garage sale for a hilariously low price and I quickly deduced that the girlfriend made her dude sell them and this was close to when the first kickstarter delivered so...I may go to hell for taking part in that brutal shit-test emasculation ritual. Poor dude. His face said it all.

Quote from: palaeomerus on July 19, 2021, 05:47:17 PM

Quote from: Samsquantch on February 23, 2021, 12:48:50 PM

Quote from: robh on February 23, 2021, 12:33:11 PM

Quote from: TJS on February 10, 2021, 07:22:15 PM
Edit: I've seen some of this spilling over into live games.  I've seen several GMs run 5e by printing out battlemap size maps of dungeons, cutting them up and progressively laying them out as the party move around with the miniatures never leaving the table.

You say that like it's a bad thing  ;)
I am a huge fan of figures on the table for RPGs but prefer one of the modular 2.5D or 3D dungeon terrain sets to maps.

And that is how I came to own three 3d printers... I couldn't justify buying Dwarven Forge stuff anymore.

I got a big box of Dwarven Forge blocks at a garage sale for a hilariously low price and I quickly deduced that the girlfriend made her dude sell them and this was close to when the first kickstarter delivered so...I may go to hell for taking part in that brutal shit-test emasculation ritual. Poor dude. His face said it all.

He should have put his foot down, and said hell no!!!

Quote from: horsesoldier on July 19, 2021, 01:00:06 PM
It says "the brand" -- 5e is the first time we have seen a DnD brand that goes into mediums outside of traditional tabletop and forays into video games.

Also -- "We haven no idea about the numbers of the TSR era, but our are better!"

If 5e is truly the most played edition, I find it appalling the lack of support they're giving all of these new players. Where's the epic 1-20 campaign? What about DM aids, like tiles? Instead they get these theme splatbooks.

Uh, they revised the tiles way back in 2018 and can be found under the title, "D&D DUNGEON TILES REINCARNATED" . There are tons of other accessories too. Have you never been to a Barnes and Noble and looked at their RPG section? And there are tons of epic campaigns. Though a lot of additional support for them is through DMsGuild.

Quote from: Mistwell on July 19, 2021, 07:48:16 PM

Quote from: horsesoldier on July 19, 2021, 01:00:06 PM
It says "the brand" -- 5e is the first time we have seen a DnD brand that goes into mediums outside of traditional tabletop and forays into video games.

Also -- "We haven no idea about the numbers of the TSR era, but our are better!"

If 5e is truly the most played edition, I find it appalling the lack of support they're giving all of these new players. Where's the epic 1-20 campaign? What about DM aids, like tiles? Instead they get these theme splatbooks.

Uh, they revised the tiles way back in 2018 and can be found under the title, "D&D DUNGEON TILES REINCARNATED" . There are tons of other accessories too. Have you never been to a Barnes and Noble and looked at their RPG section? And there are tons of epic campaigns. Though a lot of additional support for them is through DMsGuild.

They used to be on the shelves at Books a Million too, but I'm not noticing as much shelf presence now.

Quote from: BronzeDragon on July 19, 2021, 03:47:11 PM

Quote from: horsesoldier on July 19, 2021, 01:00:06 PM
It says "the brand" -- 5e is the first time we have seen a DnD brand that goes into mediums outside of traditional tabletop and forays into video games.

I still remember a video (since deleted) of a "Secrets of TSR" panel in a PaizoCon with guys like Jeff Grubb, Stan!, Dave Gross, Wolfgang Baur and others.

In one of the segments, they talk about how close D&D was to having a movie produced by James Cameron. The reason it didn't happen? Lorraine, yes the witch herself, antagonized James Cameron when he made it clear he wanted to produce instead of direct, and that he wanted his special effects pal to direct it. His special effects pal? 4-time Oscar winner Stan Winston (if you think the live action dinos in Jurassic Park were great, think about what his dragons might have looked like).

Cameron was so pissed off by how he was treated by Lorraine that he rage quit a meeting, pulled Winston out with him, and never again was D&D close to getting a mainstream director interested in a movie project.

Oh fuck me. That actually makes my soul hurt.

Quote from: Jam The MF on July 19, 2021, 09:07:49 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on July 19, 2021, 07:48:16 PM

Quote from: horsesoldier on July 19, 2021, 01:00:06 PM
It says "the brand" -- 5e is the first time we have seen a DnD brand that goes into mediums outside of traditional tabletop and forays into video games.

Also -- "We haven no idea about the numbers of the TSR era, but our are better!"

If 5e is truly the most played edition, I find it appalling the lack of support they're giving all of these new players. Where's the epic 1-20 campaign? What about DM aids, like tiles? Instead they get these theme splatbooks.

Uh, they revised the tiles way back in 2018 and can be found under the title, "D&D DUNGEON TILES REINCARNATED" . There are tons of other accessories too. Have you never been to a Barnes and Noble and looked at their RPG section? And there are tons of epic campaigns. Though a lot of additional support for them is through DMsGuild.

They used to be on the shelves at Books a Million too, but I'm not noticing as much shelf presence now.

I gotta stop by a bookstore in the next week anyway, I will see if I can take a picture of whatever their RPG section looks like right now at Barnes and Noble (the only bookstore we have out here, aside from a couple remaining used books places).

I went back home to VA on vacay last week, and stopped by a few bookstores- two of them were mainly "second hand" stores.

Both "second hand" stores had LARGE prominent D&D displays with all kinds of game books, dice, figures, collectibles, spellbook type journals, D&D cookbooks,  and other assorted nick nacks both official and otherwise. Most of this material was brand new- with some used items shoved in at certain places. I was pretty floored- especially considering that they are primarily second hand book/dvd/videogame stores.

And these displays were in the very center of the store not far after you walk in- i.e extremely visible to everyone walking in and prior to or along with things like Manga, Marvel/DC Comics,  and Harry Potter displays (all of which were also prominently placed and spilling over with books, toys, collectibles, et al)

B&N had pretty much the same thing, of course, all brand new.  Right at the front, huge display of WOTC materials

I was in my local  B&N a couple weeks ago, and they had moved the D&D stuff from obscurity in the back to prominence as well- though not on the same
scale as the B&N in VA, or those second hand stores.

I noticed that TARGET/WALMART stores back home  had rather prominent gaming displays with D&D front and center.

I did note that the PF materials (new or used) were NOT on these displays, instead most of it was far away along with the video game cluebooks and such where the D&D stuff USED to be.


I'm no fan of WOTC, the 5E product model, or especially the community they have groomed, but no doubt in my mind that 5E is huge and D&D is likely the biggest/Best selling it has ever been- as much as I hate to say it (I'm not a proponent of a large D&D base or large TTRPG " industry", but that's a topic for another day)

Quote from: BronzeDragon on July 19, 2021, 03:47:11 PM
In one of the segments, they talk about how close D&D was to having a movie produced by James Cameron. The reason it didn't happen? Lorraine, yes the witch herself, antagonized James Cameron when he made it clear he wanted to produce instead of direct, and that he wanted his special effects pal to direct it. His special effects pal? 4-time Oscar winner Stan Winston (if you think the live action dinos in Jurassic Park were great, think about what his dragons might have looked like).

Stan Winston directed two feature films: Pumpkinhead (1988) and A Gnome Names Gnorm (1990). I haven't seen either, but Pumpkinhead bombed in the box office and Gnorm went straight to video.

It seems to me that while he's a very skilled special effects artist, it seems he isn't a good director (despite having big names pushing him), and his film probably wouldn't have benefited the brand any more than the 2000 movie.

Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2021, 03:59:28 PM

Quote from: BronzeDragon on July 19, 2021, 03:47:11 PM
In one of the segments, they talk about how close D&D was to having a movie produced by James Cameron. The reason it didn't happen? Lorraine, yes the witch herself, antagonized James Cameron when he made it clear he wanted to produce instead of direct, and that he wanted his special effects pal to direct it. His special effects pal? 4-time Oscar winner Stan Winston (if you think the live action dinos in Jurassic Park were great, think about what his dragons might have looked like).

Stan Winston directed two feature films: Pumpkinhead (1988) and A Gnome Names Gnorm (1990). I haven't seen either, but Pumpkinhead bombed in the box office and Gnorm went straight to video.

It seems to me that while he's a very skilled special effects artist, it seems he isn't a good director (despite having big names pushing him), and his film probably wouldn't have benefited the brand any more than the 2000 movie.

Pumpkinhead is a good horror movie, with a good creepy monster.  There's also a witch, who knows how to summon Pumpkinhead.

Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2021, 03:59:28 PM

Quote from: BronzeDragon on July 19, 2021, 03:47:11 PM
In one of the segments, they talk about how close D&D was to having a movie produced by James Cameron. The reason it didn't happen? Lorraine, yes the witch herself, antagonized James Cameron when he made it clear he wanted to produce instead of direct, and that he wanted his special effects pal to direct it. His special effects pal? 4-time Oscar winner Stan Winston (if you think the live action dinos in Jurassic Park were great, think about what his dragons might have looked like).

Stan Winston directed two feature films: Pumpkinhead (1988) and A Gnome Names Gnorm (1990). I haven't seen either, but Pumpkinhead bombed in the box office and Gnorm went straight to video.

It seems to me that while he's a very skilled special effects artist, it seems he isn't a good director (despite having big names pushing him), and his film probably wouldn't have benefited the brand any more than the 2000 movie.

   Pumkinhead was pretty good.   I did not see the other movie, but it was likely always intended to go straight to video.  I also think everyone I ever knew at ANY job was much better at it 10 years later.  There is NO WAY he could have made a worse movie than the one in 2000.

Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2021, 03:59:28 PM
Stan Winston directed two feature films: Pumpkinhead (1988) and A Gnome Names Gnorm (1990). I haven't seen either, but Pumpkinhead bombed in the box office and Gnorm went straight to video.

It seems to me that while he's a very skilled special effects artist, it seems he isn't a good director (despite having big names pushing him), and his film probably wouldn't have benefited the brand any more than the 2000 movie.

That's a distinct possibility.

The TSR guys in the panel were still adamant this was a major mistake. In fact, IIRC the question asked was along the lines of "If you could undo one thing in TSR while you were there, what would it be?".

The initial answer was "Don't piss off James Cameron.".

Do people really think if Winston had some problem as director, he couldn't fucking go to Cameron and ask for advice? 

Remember, Winston's work on the first Terminator movie really helped put Cameron on the map.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 21, 2021, 08:05:36 AM
Do people really think if Winston had some problem as director, he couldn't fucking go to Cameron and ask for advice? 

Remember, Winston's work on the first Terminator movie really helped put Cameron on the map.

Critically, Cameron's intent was to be the actual producer (i.e. not the producer in name only that happens so often in the industry).

My guess is he would be cooperating with Winston very closely.

It could still suck, but I doubt it would be as bad as the movie we got.

P.S.: And I think what's is being missed here is the most important part, Cameron must've done what everyone that gets pissed off in Hollywood does and blabbed about it to everyone he met. This is likely the reason why no A-list director would even deign to return phone calls from TSR after this whole debacle.

Remember that before all of this happened, there had been an attempt made by Gary himself to get a movie off the ground, and he got James Goldman to write a screenplay (Goldman wrote what I consider the best screenplay of all time for The Lion in Winter).

From a Barnes and Noble in Erie, PA. Not quite relegated to a single shelf in the Science Fiction & Fantasy section.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLXUE32drFxiEGhPCIwAYi7WBUpbYJDxXhyU2-gZaqM-Q12DfboVLelf-3dFhJhy7aeAPjOe1oEKpDNiGyg7YJK-DpZ9ixfRnOtxfANHFPVrgJzayWRyb09iWtXb0EtcHzoZkQHLAdyCSFqeOEOcUFM64g=w1300-h975-no?authuser=0)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLVfT9qOd2dnbsESkjJUxal6FTnbWCJQkl6ZV7FF_V2R_0o0Boz3aLTgNuGlbRstcqIrlDJ5Zzm6z-x-uaKVfJETtX5C2s-aQAdYCCFt2NsLTuDeSFdnbSqsMzl0kzLdaafbHp88L_aRtr_eujqyJ0kb1g=w732-h975-no?authuser=0)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLWGyhe1NQkATXU29rH25vTNDDm4Su0etF938n6D3y5I24_y0SpB6XH5rG10lRBiinzl3EG7rmIdEDng0JWlhO_7rlMbi6Dey4ia8cs8jOJiaEz_xHCfh5PRmJCkaJiiQ6PK83olVHtXIVscjzssdUUXbA=w732-h975-no?authuser=0)

Quote from: BronzeDragon on July 21, 2021, 09:42:07 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 21, 2021, 08:05:36 AM
Do people really think if Winston had some problem as director, he couldn't fucking go to Cameron and ask for advice? 

Remember, Winston's work on the first Terminator movie really helped put Cameron on the map.

Critically, Cameron's intent was to be the actual producer (i.e. not the producer in name only that happens so often in the industry).

My guess is he would be cooperating with Winston very closely.

It could still suck, but I doubt it would be as bad as the movie we got.

P.S.: And I think what's is being missed here is the most important part, Cameron must've done what everyone that gets pissed off in Hollywood does and blabbed about it to everyone he met. This is likely the reason why no A-list director would even deign to return phone calls from TSR after this whole debacle.

Remember that before all of this happened, there had been an attempt made by Gary himself to get a movie off the ground, and he got James Goldman to write a screenplay (Goldman wrote what I consider the best screenplay of all time for The Lion in Winter).

Yup. Hollyweird, even then, was a pretty incestuous industry, and they ALL talk to each other.

And mind you, James Cameron is not exactly the easiest person to work for anyways, so if he's rightfully hacked off, well...

Quote from: BronzeDragon on July 21, 2021, 12:34:07 AM

Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2021, 03:59:28 PM
Stan Winston directed two feature films: Pumpkinhead (1988) and A Gnome Names Gnorm (1990). I haven't seen either, but Pumpkinhead bombed in the box office and Gnorm went straight to video.

It seems to me that while he's a very skilled special effects artist, it seems he isn't a good director (despite having big names pushing him), and his film probably wouldn't have benefited the brand any more than the 2000 movie.

That's a distinct possibility.

The TSR guys in the panel were still adamant this was a major mistake. In fact, IIRC the question asked was along the lines of "If you could undo one thing in TSR while you were there, what would it be?".

The initial answer was "Don't piss off James Cameron.".

OK, I don't know the details of this deal and haven't seen either of Winston's movies. I was expressing skepticism because my best friend from high school works in Hollywood, and he has tons of stories of terrible deals that people fell into. From what I hear, lot of people are naive about Hollywood and think if a big studio or producer offers them something that they get a pot of gold, and far more often they end up screwed over. And a common form of nepotism is the big name saying "Give my buddy a job".

Maybe that's not what was happening here, but overall, I am skeptical that the deal would have done much for D&D. Plenty of 80s and 90s games had deals from popular movies, and while some did reasonably, none of them were that big.

I understand that TSR people in the 80s and 90s were very frustrated. D&D had a huge peak of popularity around 1980, but from what I've read, there were sinking prospects ever after that until the acquisition by WotC. Overall, I don't feel the problem was media exposure. It was the market conditions and building the general gamer scene.

Quote from: jhkim on July 21, 2021, 12:29:23 PM

I understand that TSR people in the 80s and 90s were very frustrated. D&D had a huge peak of popularity around 1980, but from what I've read, there were sinking prospects ever after that until the acquisition by WotC. Overall, I don't feel the problem was media exposure. It was the market conditions and building the general gamer scene.

No mention of Lorraine's mismanagement?

Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 21, 2021, 01:56:53 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 21, 2021, 12:29:23 PM
I understand that TSR people in the 80s and 90s were very frustrated. D&D had a huge peak of popularity around 1980, but from what I've read, there were sinking prospects ever after that until the acquisition by WotC. Overall, I don't feel the problem was media exposure. It was the market conditions and building the general gamer scene.

No mention of Lorraine's mismanagement?

I've read a lot about the broader RPG market and I know the publication history because I've been interested in general RPG history. I only read a few accounts about the internal fights and finances of TSR, such that I wouldn't care to weigh in on any individuals.

The peak of D&D's popularity in 1980 was huge, but it had already started to fall right after that and declined majorly from 1980 to 1985. I think the decline was mostly cultural, not because of any management decision. There wasn't the social scene to support D&D play the way that it was. Most of the kids who played D&D for a time didn't stick with it. I know my two sisters were in high school in 1980. They and their friends tried it, but didn't stick with it. I was younger and stuck with it, but in my time RPGs were more of a nerdy niche.

Individual issues might contribute - like the quality of the D&D cartoon, or Mazes and Monsters, or the Christian backlash, or TSR management. But I think the decline was broader than a single company. No one knew how to get increase RPG popularity - including other companies. It was cultural. For example, Vampire: the Masquerade worked by tapping into a different cultural niche of the time - goths.

Not sure this is the best thread for this, but it was the best I could find in paging through pages of topics. And I didn't think it deserved it's own thread, but was relevant to people's interests here.

This is from Jon Peterson, who said, "A look under the hood at the model of TSR's financials that underpins my new book "Game Wizards"":

(https://i.ibb.co/CW1VsYm/E-b-FKAe-XMAAz-NOx-format-jpg-name-large.jpg)

And here is a link to his full article on this image (https://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2021/09/game-wizards-tsr-financials.html).

Okay, I grant finances and accounting are not my schtick.

But if I'm reading this right, their revenue was skyrocketing but their profits were flat and eventually dropping underwater.

I would presume this means their costs were spiking hard. What the heck was going on in there?

How is it that there is such a difference between revenue and profits?

Were there massive lawsuits here we don't know about?

You always expect large differences between revenue and profits. A modern mature stable blue-chip company might have a 20% profit margin, so revenue is going to be 5-6x profits; here it looks like they have 5-15% while growing like crazy and *not* having professional management. (Successful software companies can be > 20%, which is part of why the stock market loves them. Monopolies also tend to have larger profit margins.)

Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 16, 2021, 03:18:04 PM
How is it that there is such a difference between revenue and profits?

Were there massive lawsuits here we don't know about?

Obviously I'm just speculating here -

Could be a combination of the following:

Revenue was high because the consumers of D&D product itself didn't grow while their product did. This was a known thing where all the various lines of D&D were effectively in competition with one another. Only a small percentage of their customers bought everything.

So they were putting out more product - yes popularity was growing, but Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur, Maztica, Spelljammer, Mystara, Ravenloft, etc were all lines that not everyone bought outside of a small but signifincant percentage of people (GM's). Therefore higher production costs and flat profits.


Obviously this is a simplistic answer that is purposely ignoring all the mismanagement and internal drama that certainly had a huge impact on that graph.

Quote from: tenbones on September 16, 2021, 03:36:02 PM
So they were putting out more product - yes popularity was growing, but Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur, Maztica, Spelljammer, Mystara, Ravenloft, etc were all lines that not everyone bought outside of a small but signifincant percentage of people (GM's). Therefore higher production costs and flat profits.

If I'm not mistaken, before 1984 it was just Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Mystara, and Ravenloft, next — Dragonlance in 1984.

I'd rather suspect mismanagement and over-diversification of business:

Quote
1983 * TSR Hobbies seeks diversification and acquires or starts several new business ventures: a needlecraft business, miniatures manufacturing, toy and gift ventures, and an Entertainment division pursuing motion picture and television opportunities.

https://web.archive.org/web/20000818164322/http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnDArchives_History.asp

I found this to be an interesting internal document on the top 45 D&D adventure modules for 1983:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NXTxDW-uL2Y/YUJ-6gUCquI/AAAAAAAADBs/oZySBYxDmnY_g_kGubEA1BgQxH840hhDQCPcBGAsYHg/s1087/tsr-1983-module-sales.jpg)

Quote from: Naburimannu on September 16, 2021, 03:21:19 PM
You always expect large differences between revenue and profits. A modern mature stable blue-chip company might have a 20% profit margin, so revenue is going to be 5-6x profits; here it looks like they have 5-15% while growing like crazy and *not* having professional management. (Successful software companies can be > 20%, which is part of why the stock market loves them. Monopolies also tend to have larger profit margins.)

Well, yes, of course- the difference between gross and net- but look at that chart, and the numbers- the difference is HUGE. It is also interesting to note that where the revenue line peaks it almost corresponds to the nadir of the profit, so if it was simply a matter of, say, net profit of 30% of the gross then the lines should more or less correspond, barring anything significant (lawsuits, jump in price of say ink and paper, overpaying CEOs, etc.). That chart just doesn't seem to add up somehow.

I noticed words like "incident" and "sues."

Interesting. That's roughly what I'd heard, but I thought that D&D peaked a little earlier - around 1981 or 1982 instead of 1984.

Quote from: tenbones on September 16, 2021, 03:36:02 PM
Revenue was high because the consumers of D&D product itself didn't grow while their product did. This was a known thing where all the various lines of D&D were effectively in competition with one another. Only a small percentage of their customers bought everything.

So they were putting out more product - yes popularity was growing, but Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur, Maztica, Spelljammer, Mystara, Ravenloft, etc were all lines that not everyone bought outside of a small but signifincant percentage of people (GM's). Therefore higher production costs and flat profits.

I agree. Plus, TSR put out a ton of different products in the early 1980s - not just different D&D lines but also Top Secret (1980), Crimefighters (1981), Dawn Patrol (1982), Gangbusters (1982) and Star Frontiers (1982). Then in 1984 they released Indiana Jones and Marvel Superheroes - both of which were presumably quite expensive in licensing as well as production costs.

My impression is that based on the explosive growth that they were seeing in 1979 and 1980, they thought that RPGs would go fully mainstream and they hired a bunch of people and produced a lot of products to try to capitalize on that. However, that investment didn't pay out.

Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 16, 2021, 03:18:04 PM
How is it that there is such a difference between revenue and profits?

Were there massive lawsuits here we don't know about?

Part of it might also be the salaries the TSR executives paid themselves...

I'm fairly sure the Blumes weren't exactly short changing themselves when you consider just what Gary Gygax was getting at the time in royalties...

On ENWorld Rob Kuntz mentioned as an aside one of the royalty checks Gygax was getting every three months...
https://www.enworld.org/threads/arneson-vs-gygax-lawsuit.300535/page-2#post-8275257
"Listen, Gary once showed me a royalty check (in 1980) for three months (six figures, nearly $300,000) while he was drawing a six figure salary on top of it. Arneson was making MORE than he was in royalties. "

Holy What the actual Fuck Batman!

300K every three months in 1980's dollars! Adjusted for inflation it is about $900,000 in 2021 money.

Every three months... On top of his yearly six figure salary.

Now that's how you make a living writing RPGs!

I don't think WOTC sends out a single royalty check...

But I wonder if they pay out on the sales of the old TSR PDFs...?

It's still utterly ridiculous how both Gygax and Arneson essentially died broke.

Amazing how some people just can't handle money.

Quote from: Jaeger on September 16, 2021, 07:48:30 PM

Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 16, 2021, 03:18:04 PM
How is it that there is such a difference between revenue and profits?

Were there massive lawsuits here we don't know about?

Part of it might also be the salaries the TSR executives paid themselves...

I'm fairly sure the Blumes weren't exactly short changing themselves when you consider just what Gary Gygax was getting at the time in royalties...

On ENWorld Rob Kuntz mentioned as an aside one of the royalty checks Gygax was getting every three months...
https://www.enworld.org/threads/arneson-vs-gygax-lawsuit.300535/page-2#post-8275257
"Listen, Gary once showed me a royalty check (in 1980) for three months (six figures, nearly $300,000) while he was drawing a six figure salary on top of it. Arneson was making MORE than he was in royalties. "

Holy What the actual Fuck Batman!

300K every three months in 1980's dollars! Adjusted for inflation it is about $900,000 in 2021 money.

Every three months... On top of his yearly six figure salary.

Now that's how you make a living writing RPGs!

I don't think WOTC sends out a single royalty check...

But I wonder if they pay out on the sales of the old TSR PDFs...?

It's still utterly ridiculous how both Gygax and Arneson essentially died broke.

Amazing how some people just can't handle money.

When you start making that kind of money, you almost HAVE to hire some sort of financial advisor. Way too many people are barely competent at balancing a checkbook, let alone managing those funds.

Do biographies of Gygax offer any clue as to what happened with his money?

Quote from: Yeti Spaghetti on September 17, 2021, 08:13:20 PM
Do biographies of Gygax offer any clue as to what happened with his money?

I suspect just normal RPG expenses like Hookers and Blow.

Quote from: Shasarak on September 17, 2021, 08:23:42 PM

Quote from: Yeti Spaghetti on September 17, 2021, 08:13:20 PM
Do biographies of Gygax offer any clue as to what happened with his money?

I suspect just normal RPG expenses like Hookers and Blow.

Whew... That's sure reassuring to hear those are normal expenses.

Boy howdy.

Quote from: Mithgarthr on September 17, 2021, 08:26:59 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on September 17, 2021, 08:23:42 PM

Quote from: Yeti Spaghetti on September 17, 2021, 08:13:20 PM
Do biographies of Gygax offer any clue as to what happened with his money?

I suspect just normal RPG expenses like Hookers and Blow.

Whew... That's sure reassuring to hear those are normal expenses.

Boy howdy.

I guess I forgot the small print (while trying to sell your movie in  Hollywood)

The original thread title; referred to 5E, and the state of the industry.

We can't resurrect the original TSR, no matter how much we would LOVE to.  I wasn't introduced to the hobby, until 1995 or so; so I almost completely missed the TSR days.  When I was introduced; it didn't make much sense, because there were too many products that included D&D or AD&D in the titles. 

What was the game, and what was optional fluff?  Why wasn't everything part of the same game?  You could very easily buy stuff that you didn't even need; for the game that you were either playing in, or else wanted to run.  It had a learning curve, that nobody could explain in 30 minutes; let alone 15 minutes.  That kept a lot of people from engaging with D&D.

Quote from: Shasarak on September 17, 2021, 08:41:20 PM

Quote from: Mithgarthr on September 17, 2021, 08:26:59 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on September 17, 2021, 08:23:42 PM

Quote from: Yeti Spaghetti on September 17, 2021, 08:13:20 PM
Do biographies of Gygax offer any clue as to what happened with his money?

I suspect just normal RPG expenses like Hookers and Blow.

Whew... That's sure reassuring to hear those are normal expenses.

Boy howdy.

I guess I forgot the small print (while trying to sell your movie in  Hollywood)

  Yes, because while trying to sell a movie, you have to bring enough hookers and blow for everyone.

Quote from: oggsmash on September 17, 2021, 10:17:46 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on September 17, 2021, 08:41:20 PM

Quote from: Mithgarthr on September 17, 2021, 08:26:59 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on September 17, 2021, 08:23:42 PM

Quote from: Yeti Spaghetti on September 17, 2021, 08:13:20 PM
Do biographies of Gygax offer any clue as to what happened with his money?

I suspect just normal RPG expenses like Hookers and Blow.

Whew... That's sure reassuring to hear those are normal expenses.

Boy howdy.

I guess I forgot the small print (while trying to sell your movie in  Hollywood)

  Yes, because while trying to sell a movie, you have to bring enough hookers and blow for everyone.

See, I feel like this is something they should have taught in business school.

Oh well. Better to learn late, than never.

Quote from: Jam The MF on September 17, 2021, 10:13:29 PM
The original thread title; referred to 5E, and the state of the industry.

We can't resurrect the original TSR, no matter how much we would LOVE to.  I wasn't introduced to the hobby, until 1995 or so; so I almost completely missed the TSR days.  When I was introduced; it didn't make much sense, because there were too many products that included D&D or AD&D in the titles. 

What was the game, and what was optional fluff?  Why wasn't everything part of the same game?  You could very easily buy stuff that you didn't even need; for the game that you were either playing in, or else wanted to run.  It had a learning curve, that nobody could explain in 30 minutes; let alone 15 minutes.  That kept a lot of people from engaging with D&D.

Yeah I apologize for putting this sub-topic under the 5e main topic. I didn't think it deserved it's own thread but I was probably wrong and I think it did. Ah well.

Quote from: Mistwell on September 16, 2021, 01:52:49 PM
Not sure this is the best thread for this, but it was the best I could find in paging through pages of topics. And I didn't think it deserved it's own thread, but was relevant to people's interests here.

This is from Jon Peterson, who said, "A look under the hood at the model of TSR's financials that underpins my new book "Game Wizards"":

(https://i.ibb.co/CW1VsYm/E-b-FKAe-XMAAz-NOx-format-jpg-name-large.jpg)

And here is a link to his full article on this image (https://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2021/09/game-wizards-tsr-financials.html).

So from '82 to '83 revenue went up $6M and expenses went up $8M.  Also the year they entered publishing, which suggests a connection.  An amateur might expense the cost of printing the books, which would explain it as a paper loss.  If not that, then they probably printed significantly more books than they could sell at the time.

In '83, per wikipedia,  the company was split into 4 separate entities, so subsequent figures are not really about the same entity.

I actually have the background to figure this out if the books are available, but without them (and with TSR being a private entity there's nil probability I'll ever see them) it's impossible to be sure.

Quote from: Mishihari on September 18, 2021, 08:22:36 AM
So from '82 to '83 profits went up $6M and expenses went up $8M.  Also the year they entered publishing, which suggests a connection.  An amateur might expense the cost of printing the books, which would explain it as a paper loss.  If not that, then they probably printed significantly more books than they could sell at the time.

*Revenue* went up $6M, expenses up $8M.

Quote from: Shasarak on September 17, 2021, 08:23:42 PM

Quote from: Yeti Spaghetti on September 17, 2021, 08:13:20 PM
Do biographies of Gygax offer any clue as to what happened with his money?

I suspect just normal RPG expenses like Hookers and Blow.

It was the 80's whattya gonna do?

Quote from: Naburimannu on September 18, 2021, 09:50:39 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on September 18, 2021, 08:22:36 AM
So from '82 to '83 profits went up $6M and expenses went up $8M.  Also the year they entered publishing, which suggests a connection.  An amateur might expense the cost of printing the books, which would explain it as a paper loss.  If not that, then they probably printed significantly more books than they could sell at the time.

*Revenue* went up $6M, expenses up $8M.

Oops, darn it.  Fixed.  Karma for being disparaging of amateurs.  :-(