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Author Topic: 5e and the state of the industry  (Read 16872 times)

GeekyBugle

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #60 on: April 14, 2021, 11:35:36 PM »
The Blessed & The Heir are classes for my monster hunters (not the real title I still don't have one) OSR game.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 12:18:11 AM by GeekyBugle »
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #61 on: April 15, 2021, 12:18:55 AM »
Poop thought I had to redo the attachments
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

horsesoldier

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2021, 08:32:39 AM »
...
License the IP to a reputable game company for them to produce, thus giving long term fans an edition they enjoy and allowing new gamers to become fans?

 A 50/50 toss up.

Look at Cubicle 7. Regarded as a reputable company, yet look what they went and did with WHFRP 4e...

What did they do to 4e?

Chris24601

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2021, 05:59:36 PM »
The Blessed & The Heir are classes for my monster hunters (not the real title I still don't have one) OSR game.
Well, going spells (miracles) per level and hit dice definitely means no one will confuse your system for the one used in Vampire the Masquerade.

Personally, I don't think D&D-ish leveled spell slots per day, armor and weapon proficiencies, and an almost non-existent skills system particularly fits the genre very well.

In terms of magic typically seen in urban fantasy a mix of at-will, mana/health burn, and more lengthy rituals for bigger effects would probably fit the overall genre better.

Similarly, there's a reason just about every modern or sci-fi setting system of any note is skill-based rather than level-based; there's just so much greater focus on things outside of fighting to survive and the level of proficiency required for most fields is much higher than medieval occupations. You need a way to handle the PC who went to medical school before learning of the supernatural, or who was an engineer or chemist, or a construction worker, or a librarian (overcoming many monsters in the fiction is matter of identifying the creature and its weaknesses... so research, particularly in dusty old books most libraries keep in the stacks these days if they still have them at all)... not just priests and soldiers and thieves.

Likewise, while modern armor can certainly help you survive a firefight, not many people outside military and law enforcement personnel use it regularly and, frankly, in the modern world, going around wearing anything more than a concealed vest is going to draw LOTS of attention (and law enforcement to at least ask what you think you're doing). And even the tactical stuff doesn't require nearly the training to make it a class feature you balance performance around (nor is Armor Class something I'd use in modern combat... Parrying/Dodging, Evasive Action/Serpentine, Cover (and cover fire) and Concealment are going to play a much greater role in defense for the most part).

Likewise, HD aren't nearly as good at modelling urban fantasy combat... particularly monster hunting. Your "Combat Machine" feature isn't going to see much use when you're hunting A vampire or A werewolf... both of whom are many times stronger and faster and more deadly than any mortal... basically Combat Machine is only going to be good against human mooks, not the monsters you intend to have them hunting.

This is why I said OSR just isn't a good fit for urban fantasy. Its too wedded to certain D&D-isms that really only exist in D&D and D&D spin-off material and are a poor fit at emulating anything outside that genre.


Chris24601

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #65 on: April 15, 2021, 06:17:49 PM »
D&D Urban Fantasy https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/170609/Skyscrapers--Sorcery-Preview
I'm not saying you can't do it... I just don't find it a good fit for the genre.

You can slap the words "Heroes Unlimited" onto the Palladium System and call it a superhero RPG. That doesn't make it even remotely emulate the genre.

GeekyBugle

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #66 on: April 15, 2021, 06:23:46 PM »
The Blessed & The Heir are classes for my monster hunters (not the real title I still don't have one) OSR game.
Well, going spells (miracles) per level and hit dice definitely means no one will confuse your system for the one used in Vampire the Masquerade.

Personally, I don't think D&D-ish leveled spell slots per day, armor and weapon proficiencies, and an almost non-existent skills system particularly fits the genre very well.

In terms of magic typically seen in urban fantasy a mix of at-will, mana/health burn, and more lengthy rituals for bigger effects would probably fit the overall genre better.

Similarly, there's a reason just about every modern or sci-fi setting system of any note is skill-based rather than level-based; there's just so much greater focus on things outside of fighting to survive and the level of proficiency required for most fields is much higher than medieval occupations. You need a way to handle the PC who went to medical school before learning of the supernatural, or who was an engineer or chemist, or a construction worker, or a librarian (overcoming many monsters in the fiction is matter of identifying the creature and its weaknesses... so research, particularly in dusty old books most libraries keep in the stacks these days if they still have them at all)... not just priests and soldiers and thieves.

Likewise, while modern armor can certainly help you survive a firefight, not many people outside military and law enforcement personnel use it regularly and, frankly, in the modern world, going around wearing anything more than a concealed vest is going to draw LOTS of attention (and law enforcement to at least ask what you think you're doing). And even the tactical stuff doesn't require nearly the training to make it a class feature you balance performance around (nor is Armor Class something I'd use in modern combat... Parrying/Dodging, Evasive Action/Serpentine, Cover (and cover fire) and Concealment are going to play a much greater role in defense for the most part).

Likewise, HD aren't nearly as good at modelling urban fantasy combat... particularly monster hunting. Your "Combat Machine" feature isn't going to see much use when you're hunting A vampire or A werewolf... both of whom are many times stronger and faster and more deadly than any mortal... basically Combat Machine is only going to be good against human mooks, not the monsters you intend to have them hunting.

This is why I said OSR just isn't a good fit for urban fantasy. Its too wedded to certain D&D-isms that really only exist in D&D and D&D spin-off material and are a poor fit at emulating anything outside that genre.

And from what you read in the classes you already know what type of magic system I'm using how?

You don't like the system for the genre, that's a valid opinion, but like the dude said...That's YOUR opinion man.

As for emulating WoD not my goal, my goal is totally different.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Chris24601

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #67 on: April 15, 2021, 06:39:00 PM »
And from what you read in the classes you already know what type of magic system I'm using how?
Because the description in one of the classes you put the link to above literally says "miracles per day" and has "miracle levels."

That's LITERALLY D&D style casting.

Quote
As for emulating WoD not my goal, my goal is totally different.
I'm not talking about emulating the World of Darkness... I'm talking about emulating the urban fantasy genre; The Dresden Files, Anita Blake (before it turned into porn), Monster Hunter International, Anne Rice, Fables, The Magicians, Blade, Buffy/Angel, Supernatural, Grimm, The Vampire Diaries/The Originals/Legacies, etc.

Can you really tell me that the typical D&D-isms of the OSR are a good fit for those?

GeekyBugle

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #68 on: April 15, 2021, 06:59:10 PM »
And from what you read in the classes you already know what type of magic system I'm using how?
Because the description in one of the classes you put the link to above literally says "miracles per day" and has "miracle levels."

That's LITERALLY D&D style casting.

Quote
As for emulating WoD not my goal, my goal is totally different.
I'm not talking about emulating the World of Darkness... I'm talking about emulating the urban fantasy genre; The Dresden Files, Anita Blake (before it turned into porn), Monster Hunter International, Anne Rice, Fables, The Magicians, Blade, Buffy/Angel, Supernatural, Grimm, The Vampire Diaries/The Originals/Legacies, etc.

Can you really tell me that the typical D&D-isms of the OSR are a good fit for those?

Right, I posted the old build, no, I'm not using slots or spells per day.

I don't see why not, but again, that's MY opinion and the other is YOUR opinion.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Omega

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2021, 10:28:48 AM »
To be fair, from a business standpoint they probably have to change enough to justify people buying the new edition rather than using the old one.

I'm not saying that I'm a fan of the changes they did make - but I can definitely see why they would need to make changes.

This is a false marketing idea thats been around a long time. It actually loses customers every time.

The idea is that you will gain new customers and and some extra from anyone who had a prior edition. Moreso if you can force them to via organized play. This combined with a new marketing fad of "Fans are bad. We must get rid of older players." and its a train wreck waiting to happen. And it allways does. WOTC learned this the hard way. Oh wait. They are obsessed with this and never learn.

The better model is to make small updates to the system and roll them out in new print runs of the same book and draw new players in while retaining your established one. The rest comes from supplements.


BronzeDragon

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2021, 11:51:30 PM »

This is a false marketing idea thats been around a long time. It actually loses customers every time.

The idea is that you will gain new customers and and some extra from anyone who had a prior edition. Moreso if you can force them to via organized play. This combined with a new marketing fad of "Fans are bad. We must get rid of older players." and its a train wreck waiting to happen. And it allways does. WOTC learned this the hard way. Oh wait. They are obsessed with this and never learn.

The better model is to make small updates to the system and roll them out in new print runs of the same book and draw new players in while retaining your established one. The rest comes from supplements.

The company that best learned this lesson was Coca-Cola.

After the New Coke fiasco, they haven't really messed with the system that much, besides creating a few new flavors and clearly marketing them as extra stuff, not a replacement for the main fare.

Luckily for me, since Vanilla Coke is their only product I find not to be vomit inducing.
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Mistwell

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #71 on: May 19, 2021, 04:25:57 PM »







Mistwell

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #72 on: May 20, 2021, 05:46:05 PM »
Huh.

No response to "Only 13% of players are 40 years old or older" and "A majority of players are under 29 years old?"

No response to "Even though we don't have exact numbers from the TSR era, we can safely say D&D is more popular now than it has ever been in it's 47 year history?"

HappyDaze

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #73 on: May 20, 2021, 05:50:43 PM »
Huh.

No response to "Only 13% of players are 40 years old or older" and "A majority of players are under 29 years old?"

No response to "Even though we don't have exact numbers from the TSR era, we can safely say D&D is more popular now than it has ever been in it's 47 year history?"
So before I quit playing it last year, I was part of an under-represented minority of players? A minority that they don't really seems to want to market it towards? I'm not really surprised.

Ghostmaker

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #74 on: May 20, 2021, 06:16:57 PM »
That 'less than 1% is other/nonbinary' must be driving the SJWs insane.