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Author Topic: 5e and the state of the industry  (Read 16870 times)

Jaeger

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2021, 07:50:47 PM »
My optimistic view is that history will repeat itself....

My pessimistic view is that D&D has never been bigger, and the non D&D d20 games have never been smaller.


It may just be the zeitgeist: Edgy vampires were a 90s thing, like zombies were 00s. Shadowrun was so 80s, it hurts. I'll give you Warhammer, though (yet the modern idea of social commentary is somewhat skewed against the setting, so..).

Zeitgeist may have been what brought Vampire and Shadowrun into prominence. But for each property one can point to things that were done which drove the brands into the ground.

Warhammer has always been a great setting held back by a perpetually sub-par system for the type of adventuring it was selling.

2e wasn't bad.

3e - WTF were they thinking.

4e -  I know lets not fix the issues with 2e, lets make something similar but more complex. That's the winning ticket!

There were 3 perpetually top 2-5 RPG's. All mismanaged into also-rans.
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SHARK

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2021, 08:47:18 PM »
My optimistic view is that history will repeat itself....

My pessimistic view is that D&D has never been bigger, and the non D&D d20 games have never been smaller.


It may just be the zeitgeist: Edgy vampires were a 90s thing, like zombies were 00s. Shadowrun was so 80s, it hurts. I'll give you Warhammer, though (yet the modern idea of social commentary is somewhat skewed against the setting, so..).

Zeitgeist may have been what brought Vampire and Shadowrun into prominence. But for each property one can point to things that were done which drove the brands into the ground.

Warhammer has always been a great setting held back by a perpetually sub-par system for the type of adventuring it was selling.

2e wasn't bad.

3e - WTF were they thinking.

4e -  I know lets not fix the issues with 2e, lets make something similar but more complex. That's the winning ticket!

There were 3 perpetually top 2-5 RPG's. All mismanaged into also-rans.

Greetings!

Brutal and ruthless, Jaeger! CHOMP! CHOMP!

--and spot on in an accurate analysis, my friend!

I don't claim any familiarity with Vampire or of Shadowrun, but Warhammer FRP is something I'm quite familiar with. I played Warhammer 1E for years. I have virtually every sourcebook and module they ever created, including the often-celebrated novels.

I own most of everything they created for Warhammer 2E. I thought Warhammer 2E was a passionate, robust update and reworking of Warhammer 1E that served as an outstanding achievement, with many excellent books that covered everything in Warhammer 1E, and more besides.

I always scratch my head wondering why anyone felt the need to change Warhammer 2E to begin with. Fantasy Flight Games' Warhammer 3E was arrgghh...utter trash entirely.

Warhammer 4E, yeah. I don't know much about it. It gets me to cycle back to my huge collection of Warhammer 2E books. What would I possibly need from Warhammer 4E? My Warhammer 2E books are all, without exception, in *mint condition*. Why would anyone that is a fan of Warhammer 2E want anything from Warhammer 4E? It seems like such a waste of time and energy trying to reinvent the wheel, when there already exists a fine sportscar you can drive endlessly.

Beyond the actual game and mechanical discussions, I also can agree entirely that the franchises as games, have been thoroughly mismanaged as you said, "Into also-rans"! *laughing* So very, very true! Such artistic and gaming potential that could have been marshalled into an enduring system, with a passionate, stable, and vocal fanbase!

Somehow, though, time and time again, the management shoved their heads up their asses and caused the game franchise to wither and die on the vine.

So tragic.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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HappyDaze

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2021, 11:41:07 PM »
Why would anyone that is a fan of Warhammer 2E want anything from Warhammer 4E? It seems like such a waste of time and energy trying to reinvent the wheel, when there already exists a fine sportscar you can drive endlessly.
I am a big fan of WFRP2e, but I really like the version of the career system in WFRP4e. That's not to say I like all of the added complexity of 4e, but it does have some features not found in 2e.

Omega

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2021, 11:45:20 PM »
Then after awhile the market for D20 ended and instead of bringing back the games they use to stock stores just turned that space over to other things (more tables for the crack add...er Magic and Pokémon fans, board games, space for 40k, etc).

At least that was what happened in my area.

A small bit of insight here.

The reason you saw some game stores devoting more space to Warhammer/GW product was because they had no choice. GW had, and likely still has a clause that requires stores that stock their games to stock ONLY their games. I am not sure what the threshold is where they demand this. But locally that is the case and a store that became a GW host dropped everything else. As of 2014 they demand retailers have to buy a certain amount of product, and have to devote X amount of space to only GW games, at fixed prices set by GW.

Chris24601

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2021, 04:38:58 PM »
Zeitgeist may have been what brought Vampire and Shadowrun into prominence. But for each property one can point to things that were done which drove the brands into the ground.
For Vampire it was the idiotic notion that they had to deliver on the setting's implied imminent End of Days coupled with the idea that they could get get everyone to just jump ship after that to a similar, but different enough to cause headaches setting and rule set after doing so (aka Vampire the Requiem).

The first part was the result of their having sniffed enough of their own farts to take the "Storyteller" part of their system's name seriously and that a roleplaying setting was the same thing as an actual story with plots that develop and get resolved instead of being the ground state from which the GMs build their own scenarios that can become stories after the fact.

The second was the same misread they made with the present V5; a belief that clunky, but flexible rules and heap tons of lore to consume were a bug rather than a feature of the system.

It's worth noting the only real success Vampire has ever pulled off after tanking itself was their retro 20th Anniversary Editions.

lordmalachdrim

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2021, 04:59:35 PM »
A small bit of insight here.

The reason you saw some game stores devoting more space to Warhammer/GW product was because they had no choice. GW had, and likely still has a clause that requires stores that stock their games to stock ONLY their games. I am not sure what the threshold is where they demand this. But locally that is the case and a store that became a GW host dropped everything else. As of 2014 they demand retailers have to buy a certain amount of product, and have to devote X amount of space to only GW games, at fixed prices set by GW.

They didn't devote more space to product. They dedicated more space for people to play sit around for hours playing with the stuff they bought online.

robh

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2021, 05:57:06 PM »
GW had, and likely still has a clause that requires stores that stock their games to stock ONLY their games.

No they did not.

The terms of becoming a GW stockist have always been about the level (financial and core box quantity) of stock you have to agree to hold and which product ranges that stock has to be sourced from.
Providing a trader has the financial capacity to invest in other companies minimum order quantities GW does not/can not ever stop them. Question is how many hobby shops are financially able to do that, those who cannot have to make the choice, stock GW or rival brands.

Jaeger

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2021, 08:30:07 PM »

Beyond the actual game and mechanical discussions, I also can agree entirely that the franchises as games, have been thoroughly mismanaged as you said, "Into also-rans"! *laughing* So very, very true! Such artistic and gaming potential that could have been marshalled into an enduring system, with a passionate, stable, and vocal fanbase!

In fairness to these games D&D has been mismanaged, and bailed out by big $$ no less than 3 times.

But as the market leader it will benefit from things like that.

Other games Like vampire, WHFRP, and Shadowrun have to walk a finer line, and it is much harder for them to recover when they stumble.

This is why Pathfinder2 took the conservative route and doubled down with their featapalooza design direction for PF2. They didn’t want to risk a flop.

IMHO there are times where you can go conservative, and wind up conserving absolutely nothing.

I feel PF2 will eventually take Baizuo to the same place as Hero and GURPS.



...
I am a big fan of WFRP2e, but I really like the version of the career system in WFRP4e. That's not to say I like all of the added complexity of 4e, but it does have some features not found in 2e.

Fixing the known issues with 2e and adding new features that actually enhance the game at the table, was the correct way to go.

Adding new features, then adding more complexity - thereby introducing all new issues that need to be fixed - just serves to keep WHFRP a 3rd tier also-ran.



...
For Vampire it was the idiotic notion that they had to deliver on the setting's implied imminent End of Days coupled with the idea that they could get get everyone to just jump ship after that to a similar, but different enough to cause headaches setting and rule set after doing so (aka Vampire the Requiem).

The first part was the result of their having sniffed enough of their own farts to take the "Storyteller" part of their system's name seriously

Metaplot has laid many a game low - especially when the people in charge of the game line start to believe that their in-game flavor fiction is actually good…



The second was the same misread they made with the present V5; a belief that clunky, but flexible rules and heap tons of lore to consume were a bug rather than a feature of the system.

It's worth noting the only real success Vampire has ever pulled off after tanking itself was their retro 20th Anniversary Editions.

The success of the 20th anniversary edition should have been the market signal they looked to for the design direction of V5.

Sometimes keeping your desires for avant-garde artistic expression in check, and just giving the fans what they want in a well written, play-tested, quality game; actually turns out to be both a creative and financially successful move…
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 08:36:38 PM by Jaeger »
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HappyDaze

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2021, 09:08:16 PM »
Other games Like vampire, WHFRP, and Shadowrun have to walk a finer line, and it is much harder for them to recover when they stumble.
Others have spoken on Vampire, and touched on WFRP (3e was a big stumble in the eyes of most fans, and 4e has mixed reactions), but then there is Shadowrun. The 4e and 5e versions were considered mixed (a fair number liked the rules changes, even if some thought the loss of pools wrecked the game, but very few that I know of have liked the flavor/story/plot developments) but then there is the steaming pile of shit that is Shadowrun Sixth World (6e). I've seen nothing good said about it. There's Shadowun Anarchy too, which just doesn't feel at all like Shadowrun to me. So, Shadowrun has been stumbling for >10 years, but somehow they keep putting a bunch of stuff out in pdf and print.

Jaeger

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2021, 10:57:10 PM »
... Shadowrun has been stumbling for >10 years, but somehow they keep putting a bunch of stuff out in pdf and print.

Shadowrun and other 'legacy' games that once had a really good run benefit from having an extensive back-catalogue that they can continually mine and refurbish for new editions. And fans of gaming IP can be very long-suffering...

GURPS and HERO are prime examples... If they closed up their RPG lines tomorrow no one would really notice.

Yes they are technically supported, and still put out product which their die-hard fanbase buys. But as far as Joe and Jane gamer are concerned.. "Who..??"

Which is a far cry from where they used to be.

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Omega

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2021, 06:32:20 AM »
GW had, and likely still has a clause that requires stores that stock their games to stock ONLY their games.

No they did not.

The terms of becoming a GW stockist have always been about the level (financial and core box quantity) of stock you have to agree to hold and which product ranges that stock has to be sourced from.
Providing a trader has the financial capacity to invest in other companies minimum order quantities GW does not/can not ever stop them. Question is how many hobby shops are financially able to do that, those who cannot have to make the choice, stock GW or rival brands.

I've talked with store owners. Sorry. Yes they did require this. And probably still do.

robh

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2021, 05:13:45 PM »
I've talked with store owners. Sorry. Yes they did require this. And probably still do.

And I was a store manager and I say again. NO they did not.

This Guy
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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2021, 05:46:22 PM »
How much of the market right now that isn't D&D  is cottage-industry devs swapping money back and forth between each other's itch.io pages? I wanna say at least 40%.
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Charon's Little Helper

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2021, 03:09:11 PM »
Zeitgeist may have been what brought Vampire and Shadowrun into prominence. But for each property one can point to things that were done which drove the brands into the ground.

I've always liked the setting of Shadowrun - but every edition of the game seems to be somewhere between meh and bad.

There are other issues, but the two related core factors seem to be the overly complex sub-systems and how said sub-systems take so long at the table. Time for the Decker to do something? Guess everyone else at the table should go make a sandwich or something. Same thing with astral plane stuff.

IMO, every sub-system should do one of two things in a TTRPG:

1. Be fast - a few minutes at the absolute most - so that the game gets back to table play ASAP.

2. Include everyone at the table, even if the non-specialist characters are sub-par, they should still be able to contribute. (Shadowrun does this with combat. The Decker isn't as effective as the street samurai, but he can still pop off with a pistol to contribute.)


Overall though, the mechanics of Shadowrun never really live up to the setting IMO.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 03:12:16 PM by Charon's Little Helper »

Jaeger

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2021, 01:35:21 PM »
I've always liked the setting of Shadowrun - but every edition of the game seems to be somewhere between meh and bad.

There are other issues, but the two related core factors seem to be the overly complex sub-systems and how said sub-systems take so long at the table....
...
Overall though, the mechanics of Shadowrun never really live up to the setting IMO.

This is the main reason Shadowrun has faded.

People will come for the IP, but you can drive them away with the system!

IMHO there is nothing in the 3rd edition of SR that can't be fixed. And people seem to prefer the setting fluff from the 2nd edition.

So what do they do for SR4,5 & 6? Clean up and streamline the known system issues, drop the metaplot and develop the 2e world with updates for technology? Noooooooo...

Instead the IP holder changed how the diepool's worked, updates the lore because #iwannabeawriter, and introduced all new systematic issues to be fixed with their "system update". Which they never fix in successive editions. All while still keeping all the old legacy complexity issues that SR had.

And people wonder why its player base has dwindled... But hey you can play a Pixie, so it must still be cool right?

Same with Vampire/WoD. So what do the IP holders do when the 20th anniversary release is relatively successful?

Heaven forbid they give the customer base what it wants with a updated and streamlined version of Vampire the Masquerade where the known system issues are actually addressed. Nooooo! What the fanbase really wants is our new expression of what it means to be a woe is me monster!

ROTFL! Bring back the World of Darkness in a way that the old fans can get behind? Such nonsense! Vampire is a Storytelling Game for snowflake auteurs... Not for the unwashed masses who want to play katanas and trenchcoats!

Same with WHFRP 3rd edition. FFG tried to make a "look another special dice game!" edition. Which made the RPG hobby go: "WHFRP what?"

So what does C7 do when they get the license?  Release a cleaned up version of WHFRP 2e with known issues addressed and some new features to enhance the WHFRP experience? Noooooooo...  Such obvious ways to update the game to get back the old players and attract new ones are for Poofs!

Complexity must be added! Because as we all know complex d100 systems have legions of fans!

So we get WHFRP 4e, complete with all new system issues obvious upon release due to lack of playtesting! Yeah we have a few cool new options that would have been great on a 2e chassis. But you need to understand that this is WHFRP my good fellow! And as we all know you can't release an edition of WHFRP that actually does what it says on the tin, what?

In each case the IP were taken over by people who didn't really get why fixing known issues for the old fans, and attracting new fans by appealing to normie gamers  might actually be a good idea...
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 02:57:36 PM by Jaeger »
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