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Author Topic: 5e and the state of the industry  (Read 16873 times)

Eric Diaz

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2021, 09:00:27 PM »
I'm not sure.

I played many different games during the 4e era, but now I'm playing a lot of 5e (well, heavily house-ruiled since it's become too bloated for me).

I write reviews, etc., and 5e draws A LOT of attention when compared to different games.

A decent edition of D&D is a double-edged sword, it seems...
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Bogmagog

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2021, 11:54:36 AM »
Loved 5E at the start. Thought it was old school enough. After DMing it for years. I see now that it isn't...at all. It has enough of the surface dressing of Old School games that I didn't notice the bad veins running all through it.

My house rules for it ended up being a book.

That's when I realized it would be better and more core to the rules system to just use Old School essentials and a half a dozen house rules than the monstrosity I was trying to work with.

It's still a very deductive and flashy edition though that I struggle to put down and walk away from. It's the Drug Dealer Edition. Don't worry about that stuff man, rules don't make the game. Just play me. Look ay all my awesome adventure paths. Players will hound you if you pick me, that's right inspiration ain't so bad, low math is a feature..who needs AC...people don't like to miss anyway......here try this new E-tool.........

robh

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2021, 12:33:11 PM »
I'm quite sure I've seen at least Warhammer and Cthulhu games on Roll20 with implemented skills and challenges resolved, so I guess there is more to that.
Besides it's in best interest of any VTT to have more options than just D&D.

I have watched YouTube videos of Forbidden Lands games using Roll20, sadly due to the poor GM they are not a great advertisement for the game but the software seems to work well enough.


Edit: I've seen some of this spilling over into live games.  I've seen several GMs run 5e by printing out battlemap size maps of dungeons, cutting them up and progressively laying them out as the party move around with the miniatures never leaving the table.


You say that like it's a bad thing  ;)
I am a huge fan of figures on the table for RPGs but prefer one of the modular 2.5D or 3D dungeon terrain sets to maps.

Samsquantch

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2021, 12:48:50 PM »

Edit: I've seen some of this spilling over into live games.  I've seen several GMs run 5e by printing out battlemap size maps of dungeons, cutting them up and progressively laying them out as the party move around with the miniatures never leaving the table.


You say that like it's a bad thing  ;)
I am a huge fan of figures on the table for RPGs but prefer one of the modular 2.5D or 3D dungeon terrain sets to maps.

And that is how I came to own three 3d printers... I couldn't justify buying Dwarven Forge stuff anymore.

Philotomy Jurament

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2021, 07:47:43 PM »
For as long as I've been paying attention to RPGs, the conventional wisdom has been "As D&D goes, so goes the industry". When D&D is thriving, the rest of the RPG sector does well, and when D&D slumps, so does everyone else.

Yeah, I dunno. It's that thing about correlation and causation. D&D has always been the biggest dog in the RPG industry. So is it the success of D&D that's pulling along other RPGs in the industry, or is it just that when the industry as a whole is doing well D&D (as the big dog) does very well, too? Or some mix of the two? And then there's the distinction between the industry and the hobby. They're related, of course, but not exactly the same thing.

Personally, I don't worry about "the industry." I buy the games and supplements I enjoy playing, participate in my corner of the hobby, and I figure the rest of it will work out however it's going to work out.
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horsesoldier

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2021, 02:10:41 PM »
I'm quite sure I've seen at least Warhammer and Cthulhu games on Roll20 with implemented skills and challenges resolved, so I guess there is more to that.
Besides it's in best interest of any VTT to have more options than just D&D.
It's the same issue though.  VTTs greatly constrict the range of games that can make an impact, due to their level of support.

And it's a vicious circle because only games that have a large enough group of players will get significant support.

I playing Traveller on Foundry and it's being developed by volunteers. Rules implementation is very spotty. The degree to which a game is supported will straight up decide what system I run with; I don't want to deal with poorly coded frustration. And this leads to a prevalence of rules simple games. Numbers + monetization will be the cure, but some systems will never get developed due to complexity/obscurity.

robh

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2021, 05:14:56 PM »
According to the Fantasy Grounds report, D&D 5e accounts for 71% of the use of their platform, with Pathfinder and Savage Worlds taking another 16% between them.
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/reports/2020Q4/

On Roll20 5e is over 50% (but the data is 1 quarter behind)
https://blog.roll20.net/posts/the-orr-group-industry-report-q3-2020-breakout/
« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 05:17:11 PM by robh »

Omega

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2021, 10:58:38 PM »
Well many Kickstarter projects I observed - both new editions and new games can get their fee and target quite quickly according to my observations.
In Poland I notice more and more translations of English RPGs compared to previous decades (ironically it took quite long with 5e to get Polish version compared to previous).

Initially WOTC denied several long standing translation groups a license to continue for 5e. Wether that still holds true or not dont know.

rocksfalleverybodydies

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2021, 11:40:44 PM »
A VTT can be quite useful if the integrated systems are done well.

Warhammer 4th Edition on Virtual Foundry and 2e D&D on Fantasy Grounds are fine examples of stellar integration of the gaming systems.  As far as I can tell, they are more passion projects.  It makes it very easy to sell a group of players on a new system if the VTT eases them into learning it.

At some point 5e will not be the latest:  I wonder if players moving on will look back on it with nostalgic fondness or indifference.  Probably the latter.
I personally doubt it will hold the same fascination that the TSR offerings have had over the years.

Jaeger

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2021, 07:20:18 PM »
Yes and No.

I think there's definitely an argument to be made that D&D being the gateway drug for the vast majority of people getting into RPGs results in it's 'runoff' finding other games. …

There's probably an argument to be made that because 5e is such a roaring success there's more people/groups who won't be able to comprehend playing anything else, especially with things like D&DBeyond becoming a thing. … If WotC start really doubling down on that kind 'contained eco-system' somehow, at least in the longterm, we might see Games Workshop-esq issues arise but I doubt it'll come to that for a while, if at all.

I Believe that with 5e the runoff is proportionally less than it probably has been in the past.

The top 2 selling rpgs are D&D and D&D’s clone.

IMHO we are starting to see the long-term effects of Dancy’s Brilliant OGL policy.
 
D20 uber alles… Which has benefited WOTC enormously!

There is D&D, and then the rest of the hobby. D&D is doing Great, (And those who make 5e compatible product) but I don’t think the trickle down to other systems is in the proportions that it was in the past.

In the mid 90’s, when you went to a gaming store there was more variety on the shelves system wise than there is now. So a Casual fan walking into a gaming store got exposed to different RPG’s just by showing up..

Now it’s all online, and there’s tons of RPG’s out there for sure. But you have to know where to look.

And the current 5e ecosystem is not big on DIY rules mods for 5e, let alone different RPG’s altogether.

As for GW type issues... Don't give them any ideas!

WOTC could throw their weight around in the RPG market far more than they have been...



It's the same issue though.  VTTs greatly constrict the range of games that can make an impact, due to their level of support.

And it's a vicious circle because only games that have a large enough group of players will get significant support.

I’d be very surprised if for 6e WOTC doesn’t pick one of the VTT and do a 'D&D Beyond' type deal with them making them the Exclusive VTT for 6e D&D.

Every new book/adventure Drops only on their WOTC approved VTT. Case and desist letters for the rest.

I'd also do a deal with one of the 3d print figure companies - make them exclusive. Then have a way when you order your custom figure model you also get a token file to put the 3d version on the VTT as well.

Exclusive VTT License + Subscription model = Rake cash...

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lordmalachdrim

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2021, 08:38:50 PM »
I Believe that with 5e the runoff is proportionally less than it probably has been in the past.

The top 2 selling rpgs are D&D and D&D’s clone.

IMHO we are starting to see the long-term effects of Dancy’s Brilliant OGL policy.
 
D20 uber alles… Which has benefited WOTC enormously!

There is D&D, and then the rest of the hobby. D&D is doing Great, (And those who make 5e compatible product) but I don’t think the trickle down to other systems is in the proportions that it was in the past.

In the mid 90’s, when you went to a gaming store there was more variety on the shelves system wise than there is now. So a Casual fan walking into a gaming store got exposed to different RPG’s just by showing up..

We saw that back in the 2000s with D&D 3.x. D&D was selling really well and more and more people started putting out 3rd party product for it which sold well so stores reduced shelf space for anything that wasn't d20. Then after awhile the market for D20 ended and instead of bringing back the games they use to stock stores just turned that space over to other things (more tables for the crack add...er Magic and Pokémon fans, board games, space for 40k, etc).

At least that was what happened in my area.

Jaeger

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2021, 07:52:14 PM »
We saw that back in the 2000s with D&D 3.x. D&D was selling really well and more and more people started putting out 3rd party product for it which sold well so stores reduced shelf space for anything that wasn't d20. Then after awhile the market for D20 ended and instead of bringing back the games they use to stock stores just turned that space over to other things (more tables for the crack add...er Magic and Pokémon fans, board games, space for 40k, etc).

At least that was what happened in my area.

I would say that was a general effect, not just confined to your area.

On the one hand I can't really blame the stores. d20 boom + Magic boom = who needs Hero system tome taking up shelf space? They gota go with what gave them a good return and didn't collect dust...

IMHO this situation has been made worse over time, by the big non-d20 system games like Shadowrun, Vampire, and Warhammer, effectively managing themselves into ever shrinking fanbases.
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theOutlander

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2021, 11:40:12 AM »
My optimistic view is that history will repeat itself. That is, the shrinking non-D&D market makes playing non-D&D (and even D&D) games just like before - a quest to find the right loonies to have fun with. I was raised in a time and place where rpg players were far and few in between, so I don't see any difference between finding someone to play with vs finding someone that isn't Mercer-fed. I think the conversion rate is still the same, be it pre-3e, post-3e or post-5e.

The bast part is that through the OSR and other third-party products we have D&D in our hearts, bonus the tools required.

Quote
IMHO this situation has been made worse over time, by the big non-d20 system games like Shadowrun, Vampire, and Warhammer, effectively managing themselves into ever shrinking fanbases.
It may just be the zeitgeist: Edgy vampires were a 90s thing, like zombies were 00s. Shadowrun was so 80s, it hurts. I'll give you Warhammer, though (yet the modern idea of social commentary is somewhat skewed against the setting, so..).

RandyB

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2021, 12:27:50 PM »
My optimistic view is that history will repeat itself. That is, the shrinking non-D&D market makes playing non-D&D (and even D&D) games just like before - a quest to find the right loonies to have fun with. I was raised in a time and place where rpg players were far and few in between, so I don't see any difference between finding someone to play with vs finding someone that isn't Mercer-fed. I think the conversion rate is still the same, be it pre-3e, post-3e or post-5e.

The bast part is that through the OSR and other third-party products we have D&D in our hearts, bonus the tools required.

Quote
IMHO this situation has been made worse over time, by the big non-d20 system games like Shadowrun, Vampire, and Warhammer, effectively managing themselves into ever shrinking fanbases.
It may just be the zeitgeist: Edgy vampires were a 90s thing, like zombies were 00s. Shadowrun was so 80s, it hurts. I'll give you Warhammer, though (yet the modern idea of social commentary is somewhat skewed against the setting, so..).

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BronzeDragon

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Re: 5e and the state of the industry
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2021, 06:37:30 PM »
laughs in Age of Sigmar

The Age of Shitmar actually makes me think twice about my absolute defence of free speech. I almost, almost, wonder what a book burning or two would look like.
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