Quote from: Warboss Squee;1027471I like to play and my buddy likes to DM. Works well. And the last two iterations of tbe DMG put me to sleep with all the charts and tables.

Ah that explains it.  I'd have to say this one was actually pretty good.  Definitely better than 3/4e and more like older versions.

All that is in the 5th ed. DMG?  REALLY? I read it and missed all that.  I found it really dull with slmost nothing I was interested in.  

Clearly I need to take a second look.

There's stuff in the 5e DMG but it's like 2 pages. One page for costs of building keeps, and one for expenses of running them, but nothing about what it all means or what you can do with them.

Someone who was new and reading that would have no idea WHY you would want any of that since it does not explain it and offers no benefits.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1027593There's stuff in the 5e DMG but it's like 2 pages. One page for costs of building keeps, and one for expenses of running them, but nothing about what it all means or what you can do with them.

Someone who was new and reading that would have no idea WHY you would want any of that since it does not explain it and offers no benefits.

1e doesn't do a great job on benefits either. Just the 5/7/9 sp/person/month in the PHB (at 20 sp = 1 gp).

The good thing Colville does is share all of the oral history and cultural tradition, the tribal knowledge, around these things, that the rules don't for modern players.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1027593There's stuff in the 5e DMG but it's like 2 pages. One page for costs of building keeps, and one for expenses of running them, but nothing about what it all means or what you can do with them.

Someone who was new and reading that would have no idea WHY you would want any of that since it does not explain it and offers no benefits.

Actually in the book it does explain some of the whys. And keeping it simple as a backdrop and downtime activity is good for a starting DM. They likely arent going to get to domain level stuff for a a good while. If ever. Whole campaigns go by and the players might never bother with a castle or armies. Same as many players not bothering with henchmen and hirelings.

I agree, but being able to see what the possibilities are sometimes helps make them become real.

If you never know things are an option, then you'll never dream up scenarios where you can use them or develop a desire for them.

Compare that with players salivating at different magic items they might find.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1027593There's stuff in the 5e DMG but it's like 2 pages. One page for costs of building keeps, and one for expenses of running them, but nothing about what it all means or what you can do with them.

Someone who was new and reading that would have no idea WHY you would want any of that since it does not explain it and offers no benefits.

Although, as long as it isn't seriously discouraged IME the vast majority of brand new players seem to try some version of this playstyle. I have seen it in many live-plays and in my own experience with new-to-ttrpg players, though to be fair it seems they are more likely to buy an inn or tavern than a castle. It is only when the GM, system, or other players slap them on the wrist for doing something that nobody ever enjoyed and wasn't pre-planned as part of the story, that they need to be encouraged in the future.

The Pathfinder book Ultimate Campaign is all about kingdom building. It has its own mechanics, so should adapt to 5e reasonably well enough.

I think my 5e Domain rules are complete enough for use now.

I wanted something about as complex as Mentzer's Companion Set rules, but without a direct 1:1 correlation between population and income. Total population is used for full mobilisation in wartime - civilised areas can levy 10%, martial 25%, barbaric 33% - but adding more people to an area does not linearly increase income, and mineral resource income is independent of population.

Professional military recruitment uses a variant of the 1e Follower rules, hiring of expensive professional mercenary companies, or a citizen levy for no more than 40 days/year.

Province (Hex) Resource Production by Population Level (PL) (1-8)
NB: A province occupying half or less of multiple hexes with total land area less than 1 full hex (eg Ahyf) counts as a standard 1-hex province.
Province's Population Centre : Base Tax Production; Base Ruler Net Income
1.Thorpe (20-79)                       : 100gp;  10gp
2.Hamlet (80-319)                     : 250gp;  25gp
3.Village (320-1,249)                : 500gp;   50gp
4.Small Town (1,250-4,999)     : 1000gp; 100gp
5.Large Town (5,000-9,999)     : 2000gp; 200gp
6.Small City (10,000-19,999)   : 4000gp; 400gp
7.Large City (20,000-39,999)   : 8000gp; 800gp
8.Metropolis (40,000+)             : 16000gp; 1600gp
Hexes are 15 miles. Base Tax Production & Ruler Net Income is per Month, in gold pieces. Ruler Net Income is free droit de seigneur for the ruler's personal use inluding gifts and levies, & may be taken in cash, healing potions, gear, common & uncommon magic items, etc.

DOMAIN RESOURCES
Resources normally take 3 months to begin production.
Resource                            lnitial Cost   Production
Mineral Resources
Mineral - Mine (low)         3000gp         250gp/month  (Requires Ore, eg Iron)
Mineral - Mine (high)        3000gp         500gp/month (Requires Silver/Gold/Platinum)
Mineral - Smelter               6000gp         500gp/month (Requires Mine, Low)
Mineral Market (low)        3000gp         250gp/month (Requires trade route to Mine, Low)
Mineral Market (high)       3000gp         500gp/month (Requires trade route to Mine, High)
Vegetable Resources
Vegetable - Logging Camp 3000gp        250gp/month  (Requires Forest)
Vegetable - Sawmill            6000gp        500gp/month (Requires Logging Camp or water access)
Vegetable - Fields               1000gpxPL   100gp/monthxPL (Requires Plains/Meadows)
Vegetable - Wine                2000gpxPL   200gp/monthxPL (Requires Hills)
Animal Resources
Fishmarket                          1000gpxPL   100gp/monthxPL (requires sea/lake)
Meat Market                       1000gpxPL   100gp/monthxPL (eg beef, pork; requires Fields & no coast)
Slave Market                      2000gpxPL   200gp/monthxPL (requires trade route)
Port Resources (requires Small Town & Harbour)
Coin Girls                           1000gpxPL    100gp/monthxPL
Fighting Pits                       1000gpxPL    100gp/monthxPL

UTILITY COSTS
Levy Armoury: 2000gpxPL   200gp/monthxPL
Signal Tower:    3000gp + 250gp/month
Supply Cache:   2gp per person per week of stored supplies
Chapel or Arcane Tower (Clr-1 or Wiz-1): 1500gp - 1 month, requires hamlet
Temple or Arcane Guildhall (Clr-5 or Wiz-4): 9000gp - 4 months, requires small town
Cathedral or Arcane University (Clr-8 or Wiz-9): 30,000gp - 12 months, requires small city
Druidic equivalents are Druidic Grove (max PL 3, Druid-1), Stone Circle (max PL 2, Druid-4), & Sacred Mound (max PL 1, Druid-7).
Spy Gang: 1500 gp, 1 month, level 1 Rogue, requires hamlet
Spy Mob:  9000 gp, 4 months, level 5 Rogue, requires small town
Spy Cartel: 30,000 gp, 12 months, level 8 Rogue, requires small city
Equivalents exist for other classes, eg a Paladin's Shield Hall.

Ruling Court Cost base = Base Tax Production - Ruler net income

Military Cost (includes officers) per man-month
Tribal & Levy Infantry: 6gp/month: 3gp per man at 1 sp/day (food), +3gp to officers.
Infantry, Professional: 9 gp/month: 6gp per man at 2sp/day, +3gp to officers.
Infantry, Elite (eg Longbowmen): 14gp/month: 9gp per man at 3sp/day, +5gp to officers.
Hobilars: 18gp/month: 12gp per man at 4sp/day,  +6gp to officers.
Light Cavalry: 27gp/month: 18gp per man at 6sp/day, +9gp to officers
Heavy Cavalry: 36gp/month: 24gp per man at 8sp/day, +12gp to officers
Followers normally come pre-equipped and trained, and can be deployed in 1 month. Other troops may need to be equipped and trained (taking normally 2-3 months) before deployment.
Mercenaries: Trained & equipped mercenary units hired for a specific campaign have negotiated pay. They usually cost at least 3 times as much (plus looting rights) for a 3-month contract, and may cost up to 10 times as much. Elite units may charge +50% or more.

Sample Dominion:
Ahyf (Small Town, Ghinoran/Antillian): Queen Malenn from M8 4447.  pop. 7,000 (dominion) PL 4.
Resources: Mineral Market (Low) 250 gp/m, Fields (disrupted) 400>200gp/m, Fishmarket (restored) 200>400gp/m, Coin Girls (disrupted) 400>200gp/m. Total: 1050 gp/m > 1450gp/m.
Standing Military: 40 Town Watch (infantry): 40x9=360gp/m. 60 City Guard (infantry) 60x9=540gp/m. 20 Battle Brothers of Mitra (hobilars): 20x18=360gp/m. Total -1260 gp/m.

I think the bit I like best about this is I have a single figure if the PC ruler just wants to sit back and take income. Eg Ahyf as a dominion with a small town is PL4, so the ruler gets a free 100gp/month to play with without having to worry about it.

I have Birthright to crib ideas from. After that I can use 5e Basic PHB's Ch. 8 Adventuring for exploration and pacing. That said, there's a few tables and ideas in 5e DMG that seems to give added value over 5e Basic DMG/MM... I might pick it up one day if it was much cheaper.

The 5e DMG has tons of useful stuff, just not usually in a lot of detail.

My ACKS just arrived! :cool: Going to peruse it now...

Quote from: S'mon;1028138My ACKS just arrived! :cool: Going to peruse it now...

If it's "strongholds" you're interested (or domain management in general) it's quite good.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1028413If it's "strongholds" you're interested (or domain management in general) it's quite good.

Yes, that's what I bought it for.

Had a pretty good look at it now, it's fun seeing all the sources it ripped off/borrowed from... Macris clearly has a very similar approach to mine, so it's all nice and accessible. The numbers are transparent enough that they're very easy to tweak, eg to reduce the Classic D&D style gold standard to more of a silver standard. It's nice to see a trade system in the core, and I like the Markets ranking I-VI used for hiring as well as trade. I won't use much of it as written I think, but it'll be a handy reference volume for my 5e campaign.