Closed out one of my two 5e games for various reasons. The players did reach level 12, and I remembered how much I hated D&D's ultra-versatile magic system that makes a mockery of non-caster classes and skills.

One especially sore point: the druid wildshape ability, especially on the moon druid archetype.

I resisted a desire to depower it because I wanted to see 5e in an unadulterated form. People also said that it wasn't so bad as levels went on, that the unbelievable number of hit points the druid player could field would matter less because of its typically low AC. This did not happen.

I wouldn't say he was indestructible, just close enough that he might as well have been for monster tactic purposes. He certainly made the rogues and monks look like chumps, and that's what matters to me.

ON TOP OF THAT, the versatility was a show stealer time and time again. Need to spy and infiltrate? Turn into a tiny critter. Need to overcome obstacles or escape? turn into a flying critter. Need to escape by water? Turn into a swimming critter. Need to tank? Turn into a bear. Need to track or detect things? Turn into a scent or tremorsense critter. etc.

And once you hit level 10? Turn into elementals to walk through walls, fly 100 feet a round, resist non-magical weapons, flow through tiny gaps, and still contribute to combat.

All of that... and you still have SPELLS (more versatility that you can turn into hit points in a pinch) and your own pool of hit points!

So from my personal perspective the case is demonstrably closed: druid wildshape is unfair and poorly designed. I will definitely depower it next time once I can figure out what the fix is. If there is a next time. The caster supremacy is definitely grinding my gears enough that it's starting to overshadow the things I like about the edition.

I can say that in my current 5th ed game, one of the characters is a Barbarian/Druid - and wild shape has taken an already potent character and made him incredibly versatile. He's easily the most powerful and useful character at the table, with only the straight cleric being as useful overall (and that's largely because they've been in an undead heavy area of late).

The entire druid class is on my radar to take a very careful look at and figure out a way to make it a bit less dominant at the table.

Ugh I was worried about that. I think that I'll stand my traditional ground and forbid the class. Instead, people can be Clerics with nature domains or Warlocks with Pagan-inspired patrons.

How often are you allowing short rests and all that since otherwise you get only two uses?

And note that the Druid can only assume forms that they have seen. So another avenue to limit just how versatile a druid is. (And really should have been more emphasized in the PHB) If the PCs never get to certain environs, which is very possible, then the Druid (and the Wizard) do not have access to those.  That means NO mammoth at level 18. No dinosaurs or other prehistorics, and depending on locale, could mean whole swaths of animals they are never going to meet. Kefra for example at level 9 got nothing new because so far we have never encountered an Ankylosaurus, Giant Scorpion or Killer Whale. And still hadnt by level 12 and we have not spotted a single elephant.

And according to the designers. Swarms are not allowed for beast shape.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;915296So from my personal perspective the case is demonstrably closed: druid wildshape is unfair and poorly designed. I will definitely depower it next time once I can figure out what the fix is. If there is a next time. The caster supremacy is definitely grinding my gears enough that it's starting to overshadow the things I like about the edition.

A couple of observations

The ability make sense in terms of being a druid.

You have one campaign with the class with a player who obviously figured an optimal set of tactics for that class and archetype. It happens, if it wasn't the druid it would been the wizard or some other class that a player got a handle on.
 
Your description focused solely on what the character was doing in combat. The consequence of having a campaign where the main focus is on combat is that imbalances quickly show up as well as  relative player skill at strategy and tactics. All RPGs rules have this issue can wind up "broken".

In general, the way to I found around this is to run the campaign more as a slice of the character's lives. People with radically different skill competencies are able to successfully work together in real life. The trick is add just enough so the campaign is more than just a series of combat vignettes stitched together. This way all characters regardless of their combat capability have moments to shine.

This leads to be my final point, nowhere in your complaint I read of any consquence to the players for being a druid. In my view clerics, druids, paladins, are NOT free agents. In exchange for their awesome abilities they are servants of a higher power or organization. Incorporating this into my campaign is the single biggest check against combat munchkinism I have. Being a druid should result in complications for that characters a lot of complications. Complication that interfere with going wherever and doing whatever the player wants to do with the character.

My advice this is what what you do for next campaign. If you want to be free of obligations then play a fighter, rogue, or wizard. Otherwise your class will cause complications.

For reference here is everything a Druid can Wild Shape into with the D&D 5e core books. Remember the Druid has to have seen the creature before he can use Wild Shape to change into that creature.

Standard Beast Shapes

Level 2: Max CR ¼, no flying or swimming speed
(0) Baboon, Badger, Cat, Deer, Giant Fire Beetle, Goat, Hyena, Jackal, Lizard, Rat, Scorpion, Spider, Weasel
(0.125) Camel, Giant Rat, Giant Weasel, Mastiff, Mule, Pony
(0.25) Axe Beak, Boar, Draft Horse, Elk, Giant Badger, Giant Centipede, Giant Goat, Giant Lizard, Giant Wolf Spider, Panther, Riding Horse, Swarm of Rats, Wolf

Level 4: Max CR ½, no flying speed
(-) Frog, Sea Horse
(0) Crab, Octopus, Quipper
(0.125) Giant Crab, Poisonous Snake
(0.25) Constrictor Snake, Giant Frog, Giant Poisonous Snake
(0.5) Ape, Black Bear, Crocodile, Giant Sea Horse, Reef Shark, Swarm of Insects, Warhorse

Level 8: Max CR 1
(0) Bat, Eagle, Hawk, Owl, Raven, Vulture
(0.125) Blood Hawk, Flying Snake, Stirge
(0.25) Giant Bat, Giant Owl, Pteranodon, Swarm of Bats, Swarm of Ravens
(0.5) Giant Wasp, Swarm of Wasps
(1) Brown Bear, Dire Wolf, Giant Eagle, Giant Hyena, Giant Octopus, Giant Spider, Giant Toad, Giant Vulture, Lion, Swarm of Quippers, Tiger


Circle of the Moon Forms

Level 2: Max CR 1, no flying or swimming speed
(0) Baboon, Badger, Cat, Deer, Giant Fire Beetle, Goat, Hyena, Jackal, Lizard, Rat, Scorpion, Spider, Weasel
(0.125) Camel, Giant Rat, Giant Weasel, Mastiff, Mule, Pony
(0.25) Axe Beak, Boar, Draft Horse, Elk, Giant Badger, Giant Centipede, Giant Goat, Giant Lizard, Giant Wolf Spider, Panther, Riding Horse, Swarm of Rats, Wolf
(0.5) Ape, Black Bear, Swarm of Insects, Warhorse
(1) Brown Bear, Dire Wolf, Giant Hyena, Giant Spider, Lion, Tiger

Level 4: Max CR 1, no flying speed
(-) Frog, Sea Horse
(0) Crab, Octopus, Quipper
(0.125) Giant Crab, Poisonous Snake
(0.25) Constrictor Snake, Giant Frog, Giant Poisonous Snake
(0.5) Crocodile, Giant Sea Horse, Reef Shark
(1) Giant Octopus, Giant Toad, Swarm of Quippers

Level 6: Max CR 2, no flying speed
(2) Allosaurus, Giant Boar, Giant Constrictor Snake, Giant Elk, Hunter Shark, Plesiosaurus, Polar Bear, Rhinoceros, Sabre-Toothed Tiger, Swarm of Poisonous Snakes

Level 8: Max CR 2
(0) Bat, Eagle, Hawk, Owl, Raven, Vulture
(0.125) Blood Hawk, Flying Snake, Stirge
(0.25) Giant Bat, Giant Owl, Pteranodon, Swarm of Bats, Swarm of Ravens
(0.5) Giant Wasp, Swarm of Wasps
(1) Giant Eagle, Giant Vulture

Level 9: Max CR 3
(3) Ankylosaurus, Giant Scorpion, Killer Whale

Level 12: Max CR 4
(4) Elephant

Level 15: Max CR 5
(5) Giant Crocodile, Giant Shark, Triceratops

Level 18: Max CR 6
(6) Mammoth

Finally here is a good reddit thread on how OP the Moon Druid is. Look like Wild Shape is super good from levels 2 to 4 and then at 5 the melee classes catch up and quickly exceed the utility of the ability afterwards.

I have only played a low level Druid so I don't have much first hand experience with powerful wild shape.  

But I have listened to a lot of critical role.  (Helps pass the time at a monotones job). The Druid in that (12th level where I left off) wasn't overly dominate.  She had the versatility of a regular caster and when shifted she could tank like a beast.  But she couldn't dish it out.  

In any round of combat the rouge, sorc, and barb were doing more damage.  The ranger and fighter often were (wierd home brew gunslinger fighter). Barb could tank too.

In your game is the Druid just tanking or out DPSing the others as well?

How would you balance the Druid?

Quote from: estar;915319Finally here is a good reddit thread on how OP the Moon Druid is. Look like Wild Shape is super good from levels 2 to 4 and then at 5 the melee classes catch up and quickly exceed the utility of the ability afterwards.

Yep, that matches pretty well from what I've seen. Druid wildshape is insanely powerful at early levels but then the lack of animal forms at higher levels makes them a lot weaker, able to take some punishment but not as good at dishing it out. They have to almost abandon the animal shape in favor of elemental forms eventually, which doesn't really match up with the traditional druid most of us are used to.

Probably the two biggest issues that made the druid in the OP's group seem so powerful were the fact that they (I'm assuming) got to transform into any form they wanted and were being compared to classes like the monk. I'm running a monk now, and while it's fun it's a pale shadow of what I think a monk should be. The fact I can't even out-jump a dwarf fully laden with plate armor unless I spend some of my very, very precious ki still frustrates me to no end.

Quote from: Brand55;915339I'm running a monk now, and while it's fun it's a pale shadow of what I think a monk should be.

Try this variant I made.

The Halfling Shadow.
Grab your pipe and try one. :-) Just about everybody who tried it liked it.

Amazing how reskinning something turns into something cool.

Moon Druids were quickly banned at our table--the rest of the party could just sit back and watch our Druid take on eight or so low level monsters (the same level she was) with no real risk at all, because it's all temp HP anyway, and she was casting healing spells as a bonus action. Once you get to summoning spells, then the other druid gets stupid too--our guy brings 30 pages of stats for all the things he can summon, to cover most any scenario.

A spell that needs dozens of pages to use "properly"? That means there's something wrong.

Hmm... being outdoorsy in my youth, what have I seen? Ignoring zoos, of course.

Quote from: estar;915314For reference here is everything a Druid can Wild Shape into with the D&D 5e core books.
Circle of the Moon Forms

Level 2: Max CR 1, no flying or swimming speed
(0) Badger, Cat, Deer, Goat, Lizard, Rat, Scorpion, Spider, Weasel
(0.125) Mastiff, Mule, Pony
(0.25) Boar, Draft Horse, Elk, Riding Horse, Wolf
(0.5) Black Bear, Warhorse

Level 4: Max CR 1, no flying speed
(-) Frog, Sea Horse
(0) Crab, Octopus
(0.125) Poisonous Snake
(0.5) Crocodile (Alligator, really), (some sort of) Shark
(1) Giant Octopus

Level 8: Max CR 2
 (0) Bat, Eagle, Hawk, Owl, Raven, Vulture

Level 9: Max CR 3
 (3) Killer Whale

Plus a number of fish, trout, salmon, &c.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;915328How would you balance the Druid?

Make them a power class (monk), rather than a caster class. They gain a number of abilities centered around "life" and living things. They can infuse other things with life, which gives you healing, entangle, and the like. But their main abilities circle around living in a variety of ecosystems and being able to interact with plants, animals, and living things in general. They don't have an elemental focus.

I also have druids that are element benders, sort of, but they're considered mad and a perversion of druidic power.

That said, I'm not familiar enough with 5e to quite understand how hit points are an issue. Do they get a bonus when they change?

Quote from: Omega;915306How often are you allowing short rests and all that since otherwise you get only two uses?

In dungeon: I have a punitive old school encounter table. Often didn’t matter because thanks to the druid’s durability and spells they were pretty fresh when setting up a defensive position for their hour rest most of the time. There are also many spells (including ones that the druid has) that makes secure rest fairly reliable if the GM isn’t being a cock-block.

No, you can’t realistically put a time limit on every dungeon.

And the thing is, the short/long rest model of balance is totally busted as soon as dungeons are not the centerpiece of most campaign sessions. My campaign turned into heavy espionage and urban encounters. Once that’s the case you just can’t lock down short/long rests reliably in realistic scenarios, plans and sequences of events without looking like you are deliberately gunning for the casters.

I will list the idea of using short/long rest as a balancing factor as one of 5e’s major flaws.

And even IF the druid didn’t get a short rest for some reason, two uses of wildshape was usually more than enough to make the non-casters feel inadequate. Oh, and don’t forget the spells.

Quote from: Omega;915306And note that the Druid can only assume forms that they have seen.

Sorry, this is a dubious way to ‘balance’ it. Eventually any smart druid will see what he needs to and bust right through this little game of ‘Mother May I?’ at which point you’re back where you started.

I ran my campaign in a big city in Eberron, a very cosmopolitan and semi-modern (WotC) setting. The druid went to the zoo and saw what he needed to see. I guess I shouldn’t have made the mistake of using the setting I wanted.

By the way, would you apply the same restrictions to summon spells, polymorph spells, and gating spells? They don’t have any such limit as written.

Quote from: EstarYour description focused solely on what the character was doing in combat.

No.

Quoting my first post:  “ON TOP OF THAT, the versatility was a show stealer time and time again. Need to spy and infiltrate? Turn into a tiny critter. Need to overcome obstacles or escape? turn into a flying critter. Need to escape by water? Turn into a swimming critter. Need to tank? Turn into a bear. Need to track or detect things? Turn into a scent or tremorsense critter. etc.
And once you hit level 10? Turn into elementals to walk through walls, fly 100 feet a round, resist non-magical weapons, flow through tiny gaps, and still contribute to combat.”

Quote from: EstarIn general, the way to I found around this is to run the campaign more as a slice of the character's lives. People with radically different skill competencies are able to successfully work together in real life.

ROGUE: Guess I’ll go case the fortress for our little robbery mission.

DRUID: Nah, let me turn into a pigeon and a rat to do it in greater depth and with less chance of detection than you. Shit, while I’m at it I’ll just do the robbery myself.

COCK-BLOCK GM: Err, it’s magically warded all over against specifically that sort of thing. *Thinks a little bit more* Uh, for half a mile around the castle at least. And all the guards are super suspicious of pigeons and rats. Somehow. Chase them all day.

DRUID: Hey, I thought this kingdom didn’t have that kind of resources… are you just awkwardly creating a reason for the feeble rogue class to exist?

COCK-BLOCK GM: Not at all, I’ll, uh, put together a little dungeon for you to totally bust open with your versatility and feel good about later. (Thinks, “It will have to be a throwaway, I wouldn’t want you to make child’s play out of something I put a lot of time and effort into.”)

ROGUE: Hey, you ever notice how Professor X is always getting knocked out or sidelined for important X-Men storylines, just so there can be a sense of drama and suspense? Yeah…

Quote from: EstarThis leads to be my final point, nowhere in your complaint I read of any consquence to the players for being a druid. In my view clerics, druids, paladins, are NOT free agents. In exchange for their awesome abilities they are servants of a higher power or organization. Incorporating this into my campaign is the single biggest check against combat munchkinism I have. Being a druid should result in complications for that characters a lot of complications. Complication that interfere with going wherever and doing whatever the player wants to do with the character.

Using roleplaying restrictions to balance out mechanical advantages is an old argument, with some merit and utility at some tables. Not at mine. Or any table I am in regular contact with.

Quote from: HeadlessBut I have listened to a lot of critical role. (Helps pass the time at a monotones job). The Druid in that (12th level where I left off) wasn't overly dominate. She had the versatility of a regular caster and when shifted she could tank like a beast. But she couldn't dish it out.

In any round of combat the rouge, sorc, and barb were doing more damage.

This is true and a good point, the druid still needed damage servants to actually finish off in a timely manner anything that wasn’t totally bypassed.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;915360ROGUE: Guess I’ll go case the fortress for our little robbery mission.

DRUID: Nah, let me turn into a pigeon and a rat to do it in greater depth and with less chance of detection than you. Shit, while I’m at it I’ll just do the robbery myself.

COCK-BLOCK GM: Err, it’s magically warded all over against specifically that sort of thing. *Thinks a little bit more* Uh, for half a mile around the castle at least. And all the guards are super suspicious of pigeons and rats. Somehow. Chase them all day.

DRUID: Hey, I thought this kingdom didn’t have that kind of resources… are you just awkwardly creating a reason for the feeble rogue class to exist?

COCK-BLOCK GM: Not at all, I’ll, uh, put together a little dungeon for you to totally bust open with your versatility and feel good about later. (Thinks, “It will have to be a throwaway, I wouldn’t want you to make child’s play out of something I put a lot of time and effort into.”)

ROGUE: Hey, you ever notice how Professor X is always getting knocked out or sidelined for important X-Men storylines, just so there can be a sense of drama and suspense? Yeah…

That was good. Made me laugh. Thanks--it helped my day a lot.