Quote from: Shipyard Locked;915360ROGUE: Guess I’ll go case the fortress for our little robbery mission.

DRUID: Nah, let me turn into a pigeon and a rat to do it in greater depth and with less chance of detection than you. Shit, while I’m at it I’ll just do the robbery myself.

COCK-BLOCK GM: Err, it’s magically warded all over against specifically that sort of thing. *Thinks a little bit more* Uh, for half a mile around the castle at least. And all the guards are super suspicious of pigeons and rats. Somehow. Chase them all day.

DRUID: Hey, I thought this kingdom didn’t have that kind of resources… are you just awkwardly creating a reason for the feeble rogue class to exist?

COCK-BLOCK GM: Not at all, I’ll, uh, put together a little dungeon for you to totally bust open with your versatility and feel good about later. (Thinks, “It will have to be a throwaway, I wouldn’t want you to make child’s play out of something I put a lot of time and effort into.”)

ROGUE: Hey, you ever notice how Professor X is always getting knocked out or sidelined for important X-Men storylines, just so there can be a sense of drama and suspense? Yeah…

ROGUE: Guess I’ll go case the fortress for our little robbery mission.

DRUID: Nah, let me turn into a pigeon and a rat to do it in greater depth and with less chance of detection than you. Shit, while I’m at it I’ll just do the robbery myself.

COMPETENT GM: Okay, so which form are you going to take? (makes a note of Lucifer, the head guard's ill-tempered, one-eyed tabby)

If a rogue went alone, there would likely be complications. It's expected. The same should be true for anyone else. And yes, maybe sometimes you reward good preparation or smart thinking by letting a plan go off smoothly, but generally players won't have a fit if there are logical problems placed in front of them. Sure, it puts more work on the GM, but that's true of any game where there are lots of powers to juggle. Create challenges where having hands or a mouth are important. That two-shift limit is a big deal (and part of why level 20 is so amazing for druids). Use natural predators. Heck, use situations where it's best if the party members work together; going back to third edition, I once ran a campaign where a bard (we had no rogue) and a druid infiltrated a traveling circus of horrors by pretending to be one of the new acts.

I do agree that 5e is hardly the most balanced edition out there, as I said before. Some classes get tons of utility, others not so much. But that's also not a terrible thing as some players don't want to bother with keeping track of so much stuff. Having options for them is the silver lining in the dark cloud that is class imbalance.

Quote from: estar;915345Try this variant I made.

The Halfling Shadow.
Grab your pipe and try one. :-) Just about everybody who tried it liked it.

Amazing how reskinning something turns into something cool.

That's pretty cool. The flavor is great and I like how you've added more non-combat features, along with more high-level benefits.

Quote from: Brand55;915372That's pretty cool. The flavor is great and I like how you've added more non-combat features, along with more high-level benefits.

Thanks, I was pleased with the result. I am working on what is basically a 2nd edition of my Majestic Wilderlands and when the 5e SRD came out, I was torn between keeping OD&D as my foundation or going with 5e. If they released it in 2014, I might have gone with 5e but with a 2015 release I had over ten thousands words done already. Plus after making that and the Berserker. I released that the extra work to flesh out a 5e class was unappealing. But who knows I may do smaller releases at some point.

Oh if you liked the format of those two classes. I did the following

Basic Classes Level 1 to 20
Complete Quick Start Character Generation.

mmmm and I guess I made a elvish monk called a mystic.
Elven Mystic.

And I forgot, I wrote up a bunch of Fighter NPCs if you want your setting to be more like Harn or Medieval Europe.

NPCs for a Feudal Setting.

Quote from: Brand55;915372COMPETENT GM: Okay, so which form are you going to take? (makes a note of Lucifer, the head guard's ill-tempered, one-eyed tabby)

Uh, not "COMPETENT". I'm sure you meant "Cockblockingprick" right? I mean unless that cat can hit for 20+ points of damage, it's not remotely a threat to a Moon Druid.

Quote from: Doom;915379Uh, not "COMPETENT". I'm sure you meant "Cockblockingprick" right? I mean unless that cat can hit for 20+ points of damage, it's not remotely a threat to a Moon Druid.

I don't play 5e, but if the druid is a rat, I would think that a big tabby is dangerous to the rat, if it attacks before the druid can change or maybe where it is dangerous to change?

Disclosure: my tabby is a 15 lb part Maine Coon Cat.

Quote from: Doom;915379Uh, not "COMPETENT". I'm sure you meant "Cockblockingprick" right? I mean unless that cat can hit for 20+ points of damage, it's not remotely a threat to a Moon Druid.

It sure is when that druid is running around as a measly rat. A rat has 1 HP. 1. And an AC of 10. A single hit means the moon druid is back in his natural form, probably far away from backup in someplace he doesn't want to be, with only a single wildshape left. And heaven forbid that he come across a large dog, or a hawk, or an irate cook that's sick of the rats constantly getting into his pantry. That's the very real danger you take on when you head off alone. No one bats an eye when a rogue heads into danger and has to dodge patrols, traps, and all sorts of nastiness. Others shouldn't get a pass just because they require different challenges. Environments shouldn't be white spaces with no life to them.

Also note that I didn't say the druid in that situation was also automatically going to fail. If I did, you'd have a point. I merely pointed out that there are ways of challenging him so that it's not an easy cakewalk for him go through untested. Personally, I think it'd be a much better solution to have the druid and rogue working together to case a prospective target. They could complement each other and, if something did go wrong, no one would be stuck on their own when the guards started rushing in.

Fair enough, though the druid might be better off as a sparrow. As you say, nobody bats an eye when a sparrow flits by.

"Only one wildshape left." Heh.

Quote from: Brand55;915384It sure is when that druid is running around as a measly rat. A rat has 1 HP. 1. And an AC of 10. A single hit means the moon druid is back in his natural form, probably far away from backup in someplace he doesn't want to be, with only a single wildshape left. And heaven forbid that he come across a large dog, or a hawk, or an irate cook that's sick of the rats constantly getting into his pantry. That's the very real danger you take on when you head off alone. No one bats an eye when a rogue heads into danger and has to dodge patrols, traps, and all sorts of nastiness. Others shouldn't get a pass just because they require different challenges. Environments shouldn't be white spaces with no life to them.

Also note that I didn't say the druid in that situation was also automatically going to fail. If I did, you'd have a point. I merely pointed out that there are ways of challenging him so that it's not an easy cakewalk for him go through untested. Personally, I think it'd be a much better solution to have the druid and rogue working together to case a prospective target. They could complement each other and, if something did go wrong, no one would be stuck on their own when the guards started rushing in.

This is a fair response to my half-baked snark. I'll cede it. Partially.

Can you tell I'm a little bitter? While I'm at it I'll apologize to Estar, that probably sounded personal when it shouldn't have. Estar's a good guy.

My larger point still stands, it just doesn't seem right to give this much versatility AND power in a game about distinct classes. If most of the advice for coping with it comes down to "come up with bizarre measures to hamper the druid player", then I feel it was an error to include the power in the first place.

Shapeshifting is a cool feature, don't get me wrong. But it's good enough to be a class all on its own even with limitations.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;915395This is a fair response to my half-baked snark. I'll cede it. Partially.

Can you tell I'm a little bitter? While I'm at it I'll apologize to Estar, that probably sounded personal when it shouldn't have. Estar's a good guy.

My larger point still stands, it just doesn't seem right to give this much versatility AND power in a game about distinct classes. If most of the advice for coping with it comes down to "hamper the druid player", then I feel it was an error to include the power in the first place.

Shapeshifting is a cool feature, don't get me wrong. But it's good enough to be a class all on its own even with limitations.

Yeah, and I understand where you're coming from. Personally, I think the druid is pretty good (if unbalanced; the power should be more even over the levels) and some of the other classes need to be brought up some, given more options and versatility. That way everybody gets to play.

Have you ever looked at 13th Age? The druid in 13 True Ways is my very favorite take on the druid, ever. They basically break down the normal schtick so you can diversify a little or focus on certain areas. So you can be an amazing shifter, or have an animal companion, or have nature magic, or be a warrior. But you can't do everything, so you could have a party of 3 or 4 druids and they could all be different.  I would have loved to see that approach more in D&D 5e with its classes.

If you wanted to change it up it might make sense to make the Druid a half caster.  Add a couple extra uses of wild shape and let them last longer.   But the Druid still won't be doing much damage. And would be less useful party play and more useful going solo.  

I like wild shape.  I like the Druid.  I think the game is reasonably well balanced, though as I understand it rigorous balance was not as important to this edition as previous ones.   If you think the Druid is OP play one.  I would love to have a whole party of Druids as a GM or a player.  

If you don't want to be a Druid perhaps the problem isn't that the Druid is OP but that the monk or rogue isn't OP any more?

I'm more cheesed at how incorrect I was about the Wizard class

They made the 5e wizard the best class for magic (that doesn't heal) and I completely missed it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;915447I'm more cheesed at how incorrect I was about the Wizard class

They made the 5e wizard the best class for magic (that doesn't heal) and I completely missed it.

To be fair, the wizard has always been the best class for magic that doesn't heal...he just now can do that, too, sort of, with Polymorph (basically granting shapechange to another character, which can easily add a full HP tyrranosaur on the table where once was a  low hp character). Granted, there are far worse things that are messed up about 5e spellcasters than that.

The solution really isn't to buff up the other classes, because the other classes really aren't weak, per se (well, maybe the monk, but again we rather have historical precedent there...). It's that the spellcasting classes are nuts, as both spells and spellcasting with every edition evolve into ever more power.

One of the big ways to tone it down is to do it as AD&D did, at least with summons and such: make the outcome random. There's a huge difference between "summon a random but appropriate to the area creature, and player has to figure out how to get the best use out of it" (the old D&D way) and "let the player pore through hundreds of pages of monsters stats and figure out the absolute best thing to summon while the non-spellcasters feel stupid." (the 5e way).

Something similar with Wild Shape would probably be good. I personally think the 5e's druid "I will take the form of this incredibly majestic big cat, and I will then have monsters desecrate its body by hacking into it repeatedly. After they have done so...I will simply repeat the process" basic tagline to be rather silly.  I somehow think "Wow, the nature gods have (randomly) granted me the form of this majestic creature. I should respect and honor this form, for next time I could just as easily take the form of an AC 10 rat."   Make the random charts allow for some better creatures, and this puts the ball back into the player's field for playing well in a given situation, instead just the player just going online to find "the best" and using that exclusively.

I do concede that in olden days, certain classes (ranger, druid, cleric, and paladin) had "class obligations" but I honestly reckon those days are over...the fetishization of balance has easily eclipsed whatever interest there ever was in roleplaying (no judgement there, honest).

I meant it has the same casting system as the Warlock and Sorcerer which are now completely neutered.  They can cast whatever spell they want whenever they want as long as A) They have slots.  B) Have the spell 'prepared'.

B used to be the purview of the Sorcerer.  Which gave it an 'edge' for playing an 'easy' Caster class.  But not anymore.  The Wizard can do it and better, with more versatility.

Quote from: estar;915314For reference here is everything a Druid can Wild Shape into with the D&D 5e core books. Remember the Druid has to have seen the creature before he can use Wild Shape to change into that creature.

Standard Beast Shapes

Swarm of Rats

According to the designers. Swarms are not allowed for beast shape.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;915360Sorry, this is a dubious way to ‘balance’ it. Eventually any smart druid will see what he needs to and bust right through this little game of ‘Mother May I?’ at which point you’re back where you started.

I ran my campaign in a big city in Eberron, a very cosmopolitan and semi-modern (WotC) setting. The druid went to the zoo and saw what he needed to see. I guess I shouldn’t have made the mistake of using the setting I wanted.

By the way, would you apply the same restrictions to summon spells, polymorph spells, and gating spells? They don’t have any such limit as written.

1: um... How is playing by the rules "Mother may I"? The PHB specifically says "animals the druid has seen." Is the DM supposed to just cater to the druid player and poof there's a Mastadon! Gotta catch em all!

2: And why did the zoo have every critter the druid wanted? Last check many zoos have a rather limited roster that may or may not be very exotic. The fact you have a druid in a big city where the usual checks and balances are being lessened or removed should have been a tip off here.

3: Polymorph doesn't. Shapechanged has the same "has seen" limitation as the Druid. As for Gate. er, that opens a portal to another plane? Did you mean the various "Conjure" spells? That says the spell calls "fey spirits that take the forms of beasts" not actual animals. Read that as you may Either way. If a Wizard and a Druid are working together to polymorph someone or conjure animals and catalogue all animals for the druid to memorize then that is clever gaming of the system and great teamwork. Though note that according to the designers the DM determines what was summoned by a conjure spell. The caster determines the type those spirits assume. That might be local critters. That might be only what the caster has seen. YMMV and each DMs going to have their own ideas how that rolls.

X: What you have is a clusterfuck of an ideal location/setting that very savvy players are gaming for max advantage. Like someone else noted. If it wasnt the Druid then it would be one of the other classes. Ive seen some really insane gaming of the Polymorph spell if the DM doesn't reign that in. The fact that you have them in a city with an extensive zoo means you just laid out a buffet of power.