Quote from: DeadUematsu;309116No, it isn't hard to render someone helpless. Stop being ridiculous.

You raise valid points, but before you flag people as being "ridiculous" I'd be a bit more careful about not missing crucial bits of contexts, if only potentially:

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;309038For example, it is impossible to do something like hold someone hostage with a gun to their head (or knife to their throat), ready to kill them under the rules as presented in the 3.5 books.

My impression (from the start) was that Pseudo is talking about d20 here (to simulate something like d20 Modern) where there are no spells in the game (IIRC). It's frequent to see people refer to the d20 ruleset as 3.5 and vice versa. Well, that's something for Pseudo to disambiguate himself, but I just wanted to chime in that he doesn't come across as someone that ignorant of the 3.5 spell system as your posting would imply.

Quote from: Windjammer;309136My impression (from the start) was that Pseudo is talking about d20 here (to simulate something like d20 Modern) where there are no spells in the game (IIRC).

Which is wholly compatible with the SRD, presumably, and so uses the same coup de grace rules.

Quote from: Kord's Boon;309118Don't forget the headache inducing Hold Person at level 3 for clerics; delay until another PC has the potential to get off a full-round-action, then paralyze your victim, more often than not that's a kill.

Aside from those, there is the catch-all "...or otherwise at your mercy" at the end of the description for the helpless condition.  I would say a gun to someone's head or a knife to the throat is fairly at someone's mercy, even without magical intervention.  Now, as to how your character would achieve such a position is part of why we play RPGs, right?  

Quote from: Windjammer;309136My impression (from the start) was that Pseudo is talking about d20 here (to simulate something like d20 Modern) where there are no spells in the game (IIRC).

d20 Modern and the d20 Modern SRD both include spells and psionics. So indeed, they are in the game.

This thread seems to have taken on a life of its own. :worship:

Quote from: DeadUematsu;309116No, it isn't hard to render someone helpless. Stop being ridiculous.

For goodness' sake, sorcerers and wizards get Color Spray and Sleep at 1st level and a 50 charges wand of either of those costs only 750 gold pieces and bards, sorcerers, and wizards can all use that. There are monsters who can paralyze you. Chain, manacles, and rope are all under 100 gold pieces in value. Making someone your brand spanking new knife cushion is child's play and these are just mechanical routes. You can always unicorn day parade speech your way to victory.

I'm not talking about using spells. Each one of those relies on transferring the person to another status from pinned or grappled before they become helpless. Also, just chaining or manacling someone doesn't seem adequate to qualify as "bound" here, since they're still able to move around and even defend themselves.

I'm talking about grabbing someone like a kid or the louche queen and holding them with one hand while you put a knife or gun up to them and hold them hostage, a fairly common action-adventure trope (esp. by villains). Not hitting them with colour spray or sleep or whatever to knock them unconscious and then dragging their body around.

Another similar problem would be the palace guards jumping on someone, pinning them, and holding either arm or whatever while they hoist you to your feet. You're pinned, not helpless, so the captain of the guard or whatever wouldn't be able to coup-de-grace you.

QuoteThe fact of the matter is you went about it the wrong way and want to decry the system for not allowing you to do it the way you want it to be done. Seriously, how dare the grappling rules assume an active defender that you cannot kill without a struggle? Nevermind, that is a GOOD thing (probably the only good thing about grappling)! Imagine if I could spend two rounds grappling to render an opponent helpless for me and my friends? I can just imagine who would be the main recipients of the resulting end-fight tactics and who would be down the creek without a paddle the moment a party of ogre shooters showed up to the fun.

You're accusing me of favouring a solution that I don't. I'm talking about it as a gap in the rules.

Quote from: StormBringer;309149Aside from those, there is the catch-all "...or otherwise at your mercy" at the end of the description for the helpless condition.  I would say a gun to someone's head or a knife to the throat is fairly at someone's mercy, even without magical intervention.  Now, as to how your character would achieve such a position is part of why we play RPGs, right?  

I think initiative should have a lot to do with that situation. If someone has a knife to your neck, you can still try to fight. If you wait for them to stick you, it will probably be too late, unless you know a great move....

Quote from: PaladinCA;309158This thread seems to have taken on a life of its own. :worship:

Like a zombie.

Quote from: Cranewings;309174I think initiative should have a lot to do with that situation. If someone has a knife to your neck, you can still try to fight. If you wait for them to stick you, it will probably be too late, unless you know a great move....

The point seems to be that "at your mercy" means they have very limited options for movement of any kind.  The helpless condition already states the opponent has an effective dex of 0, meaning they have not only the -5 to AC, but they are subject to a sneak attack.  Maybe they are bound, maybe they are held, maybe it's just dramatically important for them to be in that condition.  Whatever the cause, they are assumed to be unable to effectively defend themselves.

Quote from: StormBringer;309178The point seems to be that "at your mercy" means they have very limited options for movement of any kind.  The helpless condition already states the opponent has an effective dex of 0, meaning they have not only the -5 to AC, but they are subject to a sneak attack.  Maybe they are bound, maybe they are held, maybe it's just dramatically important for them to be in that condition.  Whatever the cause, they are assumed to be unable to effectively defend themselves.

I just wish there were additional degrees of it. I feel like if one person has the high ground and a spear, the person he is fighting should be damn near helpless. The +1 doesn't cut it. Neither does an attack of opportunity.

Here is another possible rule, for 3.5 dnd at least: If someone has the drop on you, your hit points are reduced to what they were at first level.

You would have to be really harsh on sneaking characters. Enforce that roll every10 feet for every character in the area... and it wouldn't necessarily apply for flanking or flat footed, BUT, if someone has you at knife / sword / bow point, they can wound you horribly if you can't get the initiative.

Quote from: Cranewings;309181I feel like if one person has the high ground...

Give up, Anakin!

:rotfl:

Quote from: Cranewings;309181I just wish there were additional degrees of it. I feel like if one person has the high ground and a spear, the person he is fighting should be damn near helpless. The +1 doesn't cut it. Neither does an attack of opportunity.

Here is another possible rule, for 3.5 dnd at least: If someone has the drop on you, your hit points are reduced to what they were at first level.

You would have to be really harsh on sneaking characters. Enforce that roll every10 feet for every character in the area... and it wouldn't necessarily apply for flanking or flat footed, BUT, if someone has you at knife / sword / bow point, they can wound you horribly if you can't get the initiative.

High ground and a spear isn't really 'helpless', although it can be reasonably argued that the defender is at a pretty hefty disadvantage, but like the sneaking characters you mention, there are already rules for that.  If you can deny the Dex bonus to AC, then the Rogue gets a sneak attack.

I get where you are going, but simple surprise conditions would allow for too many instant kills, both by the players and their opponents.  It also bypasses the system in place for hit points in a wider variety of situations.

Quote from: Werekoala;309194Give up, Anakin!

:rotfl:

The jedi super jump didn't work out so well. I think, "give up Anakin" was a jedi mind trick (:

I also think that Luke killed Vader with the side kick, and Vader was just strong enough to push on for a bit. The stupid force lightening didn't short out anything or someone would have shocked him a long time ago.

Quote from: StormBringer;309196High ground and a spear isn't really 'helpless', although it can be reasonably argued that the defender is at a pretty hefty disadvantage, but like the sneaking characters you mention, there are already rules for that.  If you can deny the Dex bonus to AC, then the Rogue gets a sneak attack.

I get where you are going, but simple surprise conditions would allow for too many instant kills, both by the players and their opponents.  It also bypasses the system in place for hit points in a wider variety of situations.

I've been working on rules for my game system, off topic, that let you struggle for the dominant position. Once you have the advantage after all that rolling, the attack is almost assured.

Quote from: StormBringer;309196High ground and a spear isn't really 'helpless', although it can be reasonably argued that the defender is at a pretty hefty disadvantage, but like the sneaking characters you mention, there are already rules for that.  If you can deny the Dex bonus to AC, then the Rogue gets a sneak attack.

I get where you are going, but simple surprise conditions would allow for too many instant kills, both by the players and their opponents.  It also bypasses the system in place for hit points in a wider variety of situations.

I mod'ed hit points ages back, 2E. Hit points stayed exactly as they were but they represented wha the book says they do, the ability to dodge, roll with blows generally keep on going etc. So on that basis when you asleep you can not have access to your hitpoints. So .. Characters have wounds = 4+con bonus. When you get hit in combat you can absorb from a single blow 30% of your maximum hitpoints. The rest goes onto wounds. Hitpoints recover at a rate of 10% per hours rest. Wounds take a week each. A cure light wounds can restore a single wound etc. magical damage from spell comes directly off hitpoints and only rolls into wounds once hitpoints are all used up. Sneak attacks are much harder (1/10 base 1/20 for elves and a few other types) and thieve's do not get x2, x3 etc damage instead they get +1 , +2 etc on their chance to suprise. backstabs (must be melee no missile and short sword or smaller weapon) and attacks against the helpless come straight off wounds.

The effects are -
i) at very low levels characters survive because they effectively have 4 more hit pionts (this is 2e remeber where you average fighter has 6 or 7 hitpoints at first level)
ii) Magic is reduced in importance at higher levels. A 30 point fireball only takes 30 hitpoints, a 15 point sword strike is likely to take 12 hit points and 3 wounds whcih is far worse.
iii) you don;t need a cleric round to heal you after each fight as your hit points will recover , mush like 4e, but you do need to treat wounds whcih will effect your performance (-s per wound)
iv) killing helpless foes is very easy to work out with no fudging
v) a sleeping 8th level fighter is not able to absorb more physical damage than an elephant.
vi) a guard pointing a crossbow at you from 10 feet away when you are 4th level is a real and genuine threat and not just a 'well worse case 1d4+1 doubled is only 10 hp so I'll just attack'.
vii) all in game effect that do hitp points etc are all still playable as is

You can easily tweak the system making it more or less lethal. just modifed % that can be absorbed from a single hit, starting wounds or recovery rates and you don't need to change anything else in the system as Hit points are still hit points and everything else cascades from that