Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;305701Actually, I'm making specific and substantive claims about the griping, with the intent of stopping it and producing more productive discussion in its place. On the other hand, you're not going to actually change 4e in any meaningful way. That's an important difference between discussion and whining.

Yeah, you are griping about the griping.  Spin it any way you want, it's nothing like 'substantive'.

Far less so than a discussion about what might be going on in the background regarding the design of a particular monster or rule, so that if one decided to change something, they would have an idea where to start or to what extent they would want to modify it.

Quote from: StormBringer;305705Yeah, you are griping about the griping.  Spin it any way you want, it's nothing like 'substantive'.

Far less so than a discussion about what might be going on in the background regarding the design of a particular monster or rule, so that if one decided to change something, they would have an idea where to start or to what extent they would want to modify it.

If that's what you think you're doing, you're fucking delusional.

C'mon Stormy, we all know you don't like 4e, that you don't like people liking 4e, and that you'll take any opportunity to shit on both that you can. There's no need to dress it up. You're not fooling anyone by claiming that you're really trying to help.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;305682Whiner.

Nice one.

QuoteIf you don't like the game, don't play it or change the game until it matches what you want to play. It's as simple as that. That this thread happens to've turned into an increasingly-more-common-on-this-forum butthurt squad circle jerk really doesn't exonerate your whining.

If I don't like it enough, I won't play it, if I do I will. If I don't like but still wanna talk about it I will. Just like I can't stop you from being a penis, you can't stop me from talking about anything I want, whenever I want. If ya don't like the threads on this forum, don't let the door hit ya in the ass on the way out. Regardless, maybe you should pay more attention to your own whining and less to everyone else's.

QuoteEither your objections merit public discussion or they have a purely private basis. If it is the latter, it is of no interest to anyone (thus why it is "private"). If your objections do have some public validity, then they can be criticised.

While I don't disagree with you per se, I question how you seem to believe that you are the one that gets to decide what has public validity and what doesn't. Well, other than your apparent arrogance of course. I don't mind you criticizing my or anyone else's objections, but when you're doing nothing but bitching and moaning about what you perceive to be other people's "whining", you just sound like a petulant little bitch, and there's not much to engage with on that front..

QuoteIn that case, my criticism is simple: There isn't any real problem here because the assumed rigidity of the rules simply doesn't exist. Unless you're playing in the RPGA, in which case you should stop doing so because the RPGA is terrible, you are under no obligation of any sort to follow or obey what is in the rulebooks. In this specific case, that of a single line detailing an exception for a single monster, one can easily and simply change things without seriously affecting the rest of the game. It is hardly grounds for more whining about how terribly flawed 4e is b/c it's not just OD&D with better production values.

If you have actually been reading the thread, you might have noticed that, speaking for myself, my initial reaction was dissatisfaction with the Rust Monster as presented, but that Gabriel2's points have somewhat altered my initial reaction (which is really odd, because I would have expected him to have had more of a reaction like yours and vice-versa), and I'm rethinking my opinion of the new Rust Monster and it's potential uses in the new game. I'm not completely sold yet, but I'm not as solidly against as I was. I also stated clearly that the sub-issue of magic items levels is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. My underlying concern was and is the apparent philosophy with which the creation of this game was approached, and i have yet to see you address that in any more than a dismissive fashion. Maybe you think that's a non-issue... good for you, I don't. Don't like that, too fucking bad, because there ain't shit you can do about it... well, except to keep on whining and throwing more little tantrums, and if you're gonna do that at least make an attempt at making them entertaining please.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;305708If that's what you think you're doing, you're fucking delusional.

C'mon Stormy, we all know you don't like 4e, that you don't like people liking 4e, and that you'll take any opportunity to shit on both that you can. There's no need to dress it up. You're not fooling anyone by claiming that you're really trying to help.

I don't give two shits about what people like, but if you want to go around squalling about how rust monsters were such a traumatic experience before, and now they are fixed because they have nice, soft, rubber bumpers on them, you can be damn sure I am going to pipe up.

I encourage you to find a thread that I started just to crap all over 4e.  I don't even bother with most of them.  You can try to paint the picture that I rush into every discussion that is even tangentially related to 4e to scream obscenities, but like most of what you type, that is a wilful mis-characterization.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;305688Pay attention. I endorsed S'mon's change to the Rust Monster earlier in this very thread.

As for anything beyond that, it's not really worth responding to. It's just griping pretending to be a serious discussion, which also accurately describes 90% of the rest of the 4e discussion happening on this board.

:hissyfit:

Quote from: Sigmund;305710If I don't like it enough, I won't play it, if I do I will. If I don't like but still wanna talk about it I will. Just like I can't stop you from being a penis, you can't stop me from talking about anything I want, whenever I want. If ya don't like the threads on this forum, don't let the door hit ya in the ass on the way out. Regardless, maybe you should pay more attention to your own whining and less to everyone else's.

Hah, you fucking hypocrite. My point is remarkably simple: You're a whiner who has nothing interesting to say, and who should therefore spare us his boring whining. To be fair, you're not the only such person, but rather part of an entire group of people like this.

QuoteWhile I don't disagree with you per se, I question how you seem to believe that you are the one that gets to decide what has public validity and what doesn't. Well, other than your apparent arrogance of course. I don't mind you criticizing my or anyone else's objections, but when you're doing nothing but bitching and moaning about what you perceive to be other people's "whining", you just sound like a petulant little bitch, and there's not much to engage with on that front..

This kind of stuff is always a pretty lame rebuttal.

My position, once again, is simple: Stop whining, whiner. If you have something substantive to say, say it.

For example, I said in this thread that the "problem" people were pretending was serious was not because it is trivial, that it could be easily houseruled, and I then endorsed a particular house rule as being one that I thought was good.

On the other hand, your position so has been some wordier variation of "My butt hurts!"

QuoteIf you have actually been reading the thread, you might have noticed that, speaking for myself, my initial reaction was dissatisfaction with the Rust Monster as presented, but that Gabriel2's points have somewhat altered my initial reaction (which is really odd, because I would have expected him to have had more of a reaction like yours and vice-versa), and I'm rethinking my opinion of the new Rust Monster and it's potential uses in the new game. I'm not completely sold yet, but I'm not as solidly against as I was. I also stated clearly thath the sub-issue of magic items levels is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. My underlying concern was and is the apparent philosophy with which the creation of this game was approached, and i have yet to see you address that in any more than a dismissive fashion. Maybe you think that's a non-issue... good for you, I don't. Don't like that, too fucking bad, because there ain't shit you can do about it... well, except to keep on whining and throwing more little tantrums, and if you're gonna do that at least make an attempt at making them entertaining please.

Hah, if you think this is a "tantrum" you've missed the real shitstorms. This is just me bloodying your nose, sport.

Simply put, the philosophy a game is designed with is fairly unimportant b/c what's far more important is how it's played. This is especially true with RPGs because there is a widespread cultural expectation amongst RPG players that you can change the rules to better suit you. 4e is no exception to this, although it appears that many people find it convenient to pretend that it is.

I mean, if you want to suck Mike's dick instead of thinking for yourself, you're welcome to, but it's pretty contemptible to be so afraid of changing a game that a single line in a monster entry is a problem.

Quote from: StormBringer;305711I don't give two shits about what people like, but if you want to go around squalling about how rust monsters were such a traumatic experience before, and now they are fixed because they have nice, soft, rubber bumpers on them, you can be damn sure I am going to pipe up.

Good thing I didn't, then! Unless we're talking about what happened in your delusional fucking mind.

QuoteI encourage you to find a thread that I started just to crap all over 4e.  I don't even bother with most of them.  You can try to paint the picture that I rush into every discussion that is even tangentially related to 4e to scream obscenities, but like most of what you type, that is a wilful mis-characterization.

Hah! Stormy, I can't remember the last 4e thread you _weren't_ in, like a lump of dog shit in a public park. You're seriously off the deep end here. You're practically ubiquitous when it comes to bellyaching about 4e.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;305713Hah, you fucking hypocrite. My point is remarkably simple: You're a whiner who has nothing interesting to say, and who should therefore spare us his boring whining. To be fair, you're not the only such person, but rather part of an entire group of people like this.

Is that all you got? Fucking hypocrite? that's not entertaining at all.

QuoteThis kind of stuff is always a pretty lame rebuttal.

Well, there's your mistake. I'm not trying to rebut any of your so far non-points. I'm just settin' your ass straight.

QuoteMy position, once again, is simple: Stop whining, whiner. If you have something substantive to say, say it.

And you call me a fucking hypocrite? Are you stupid? Do you know what those words mean?

I'm guessing you do, and that you're just trying to be insulting because you have nothing else to fall back on, so I'm just gonna see how many times I can get you to type "whiner", "whine" and/or "whining"... might as well extract some value from your otherwise pathetic contributions.

QuoteFor example, I said in this thread that the "problem" people were pretending was serious was not because it is trivial, that it could be easily houseruled, and I then endorsed a particular house rule as being one that I thought was good.

Well bully for you, maybe some of us aren't satisfied with that solution. What the fuck's it to you, do you have some kind of love-thing going on for the 4e rust monster? The only one around here pretending this or any other issue relating to RPGs is serious is you at the moment. Doesn't mean folks can't still talk about it, just because it's not a "serious" problem.

QuoteOn the other hand, your position so has been some wordier variation of "My butt hurts!"

What the fuck does this mean anyway? I don't recall mentioning my ass, or anyone else's either.

QuoteHah, if you think this is a "tantrum" you've missed the real shitstorms. This is just me bloodying your nose, sport.

Really? Well hell, I'm looking forward to some "shitstorm" then, cuz so far you hit like a girl... a little sissy girl too.

QuoteSimply put, the philosophy a game is designed with is fairly unimportant b/c what's far more important is how it's played. This is especially true with RPGs because there is a widespread cultural expectation amongst RPG players that you can change the rules to better suit you. 4e is no exception to this, although it appears that many people find it convenient to pretend that it is.

I'll decide what's important to me. You just worry about you, since you're the only thing you can do anything about anyway.

QuoteI mean, if you want to suck Mike's dick instead of thinking for yourself, you're welcome to, but it's pretty contemptible to be so afraid of changing a game that a single line in a monster entry is a problem.

If I want to suck anyone's dick, or anything else for that matter, I will or won't depending on what I decide, and it ain't any of your business. Do you juvenile idiots really think this homo-phobic bullshit is actually insulting?

Here you are again conflating dissatisfaction with an item in a game as it's been presented with some kind of serious issue, but the only one here blowing things out of proportion is you. I can only guess that I've struck a nerve with you somehow, or maybe you just can't take being contradicted, don't know, don't care.

Sigmund, meet Pseudoephedrine. He tends to get pissy when you don't agree that his postings have some cosmic relevance.

Quote from: jeff37923;305731Sigmund, meet Pseudoephedrine. He tends to get pissy when you don't agree that his postings have some cosmic relevance.

So I've noticed.

That's ok, I turn into a giant prick when people get pissy... none of us are perfect.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;305716Hah! Stormy, I can't remember the last 4e thread you _weren't_ in, like a lump of dog shit in a public park. You're seriously off the deep end here. You're practically ubiquitous when it comes to bellyaching about 4e.

Really?  Because I can go and grab a list of a couple dozen, and those are just the ones started by Abyssal Maw.  I assume other people around here talk about it, too, so there will be all of their added to the list.  Oh, and look at that, JGants has an actual play thread that has absolutely no posts in it by me.  Also, there is your own Plains of Kadiz that is wholly lacking in any posting by myself.

This is the point where you keep repeating the same bald-faced lies trying your damnedest to make them reality.  Find a thread that I started decrying 4e.  I can start it out, if you like, by finding all the threads I haven't been posting in.  Because that is something like 90%+ of the 4e threads that are here.

That is the very definition of delusional.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;305713Simply put, the philosophy a game is designed with is fairly unimportant b/c what's far more important is how it's played. This is especially true with RPGs because there is a widespread cultural expectation amongst RPG players that you can change the rules to better suit you. 4e is no exception to this, although it appears that many people find it convenient to pretend that it is.

Quote from: Sigmund;305722I'll decide what's important to me. You just worry about you, since you're the only thing you can do anything about anyway.

Sorry, Sigmund, I should have seen the opportunity for 'philosophy of play' to get snuck in there and blocked it.  Now we will have to read endless posts about how the play at the table is paramount, and the game design is meaningless.  This leaves aside, of course, that play at the table is impossible without the rules.  Such a bankrupt ideology can only be from the fevered imagination of someone who is not familiar with game design, and got tired of being soundly embarassed whenever the topic came up.

Quote from: StormBringer;305736Sorry, Sigmund, I should have seen the opportunity for 'philosophy of play' to get snuck in there and blocked it.  Now we will have to read endless posts about how the play at the table is paramount, and the game design is meaningless.  This leaves aside, of course, that play at the table is impossible without the rules.  Such a bankrupt ideology can only be from the fevered imagination of someone who is not familiar with game design, and got tired of being soundly embarassed whenever the topic came up.

Actually I think philophosy of play (POP) is extremely relevent to online gaming discourse. But here's the problem. Pseudoepherine seems to be suggesting that philosophy of play trumps game design - which in a way it does depending on context - but is an ineffective argument when people are talking about the specifics of a game's design/philosophy. So, it most cases it would be appropriate to use it as a sheild but rarely as a sword. I do think however that this deserves a thread of it's own. I of course won't start it, because that would be so out of character.....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;305738Actually I think philophosy of play (POP) is extremely relevent to online gaming discourse. But here's the problem. Pseudoepherine seems to be saying that philosophy of play trumps game design - which in a way it does depending on context - but is an ineffective argument when people are talking about the specifics of a game's design. So, it most cases it would be appropriate to use it as a sheild but rarely as a sword. I do think however that this deserves a thread of it's own. I of course won't start it, because that would be so out of character.....

Regards,
David R

A clarification of my point, thank you.  I don't want to completely denounce the philosophy, as it does have a place in discussions.

Quote from: jgants;305628Yes, why would anyone want a game to start at a default balanced point so they would know how much they were unbalancing the game if they change anything?  That's heresy!

And how dare a game actually be easy to learn how to run smoothly?  The bastards!

Gaming is supposed to be difficult, grueling work after all.  The process must be as opaque as possible, otherwise how will we ever feel a sense of superior elitism towards others who have not mastered its byzantine processes?  Don't they know gamers are supposed to be better than everyone else?

Laugh?  I nearly shat.

"Hello new players.  This is the easy-to-learn Dungeons & Dragons 4E, from the people who brought you game favourites Monopoly and Littlest Pet Shop.

Alice, Bob and Chris, you'll be the players.  You'll need dice, a box of overpriced plastic figurines, the Players Handbook, Players Handbook 2, campaign settting and a subscription to D&D Insider.

Then you can start learning about standard, move, minor and immediate actions, fortitude, will, armour class, five-foot steps, pushing, pulling, sliding, marking, healing surges and second winds.

After a few days you should have that down, and you can start on your character.  Figure out the difference between attributes, skills, feats, at-will powers, encounter powers, daily powers, and rituals, and don't ask any obvious questions, like why your PC can only do his cool move once per day, or why being persuasive makes climbing easier.

Then you can move on to optimising your build (formerly known as creating a character).  You'll need to plan out your epic destiny and select the exact items you want the DM to give you, or risk the possibility of some randomness creeping into the game.

David, you're the DM, which means you'll need to buy the same stuff as the players, plus a crate of figurines, a battlemat, the Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual 1 and Monster Manual 2.  Then you'll need to learn all the rules the players do, with the addition of the different categories of monster and the formula for planning balanced, 3-hour long combats which are ultimately redundant because the rules are designed so that the players always win.

Then you can start your game.  Unless one of the players doesn't have a few hundred dollars for the books.  In that case you'll need to have a character generation session, because just making a PC is several hours of labour.

Voila!  You're ready for your first roleplaying game.  Of course, it's not really "roleplaying", because it's 90% combat, and all of your PC's moves are helpfully scripted with their powers, saving you the hassle of imagination and description.  And "game" implies an element of chance, or even the possibility of losing.  None of that here.

Alternatively, you can try to master the Byzantine process of Basic Fantasy Roleplaying Game.

You'll need dice and a pencil.  The game itself is free.

Players, it should take you about fifteen minutes of reading to get a grasp of the system.  The GM, though, may need up to an hour.  You can generate a character in ten minutes, so just turn up to the first session with an idea of what you'd like to play."


Jgants, if you find people are treating you with superior elitism, it may be because they see you investing a lot of time and money in a needlessly complicated game designed as an ego fantasy, not just for children, but for children who are so fragile they can't even handle the loss of an object within the game!