2/10

Quote from: two_fishes;361246Why? I mean, I know the example is laughably lame, but do these responses indicate a problem with the principle behind the example? Set this example aside. If a player were to invent some world detail in play that was actually pretty cool, or at least acceptably cool, in a similar on-the-spot manner , would you still have a desire to pervert it or undermine it like that? If so, then why?

That's just not the kind of game my players and I enjoy.  I don't mind playing a game like Burning Wheel, where contacts and resources are abstracted and can be used on the fly to apply to current situations, that's kind of cool, IMO, although it doesn't work for everybody, not even every group I game with.
The idea that you can create out of whole cloth a new and important element of the setting just completely suspends disbelief if one of your primary role-playing goals is Immersion.  The metagame of the player's shared narration, turns the game from the character's viewpoint into a session of Mage the Ascension, where reality can be re-woven as need be.  Such an action is basically a retcon from an immersive point of view.

Now if the character had done something less-blatant, less retconning, and was actually valid within the setting (for example based on his character's background) then I have no problem with allowing some cool creativity to "fill-in".

The ham-fisted nature of the example in an official 4e product is troubling.  I'm getting the sneaking suspicion that producers or games like 4e and WFRP3 are trying to "cash-in" on the indie/narrative movement, but don't have much expertise with the games that inspired it.

Quote from: two_fishes;361807Oh you with your ideology this and your hypocrisy that. It's all so serious for you, isn't it? It's kind of cute, in a way, like watching a little dog bark. You have strong opinions about whether or not Han Solo shot first, don't you? It's a real important issue for you, isn't it? Tell me, this world you live in, where everything is an important ideological battle, and a little bit of playful hyperbole can't stand without being "called out", is it any fun? Because it seems to me like a lot of work.

Yawn.  Armchair psychoanalysis is soooo last year.

Troll harder next time.

Quote from: CRKrueger;361812The idea that you can create out of whole cloth a new and important element of the setting just completely suspends disbelief if one of your primary role-playing goals is Immersion.  The metagame of the player's shared narration, turns the game from the character's viewpoint into a session of Mage the Ascension, where reality can be re-woven as need be.  Such an action is basically a retcon from an immersive point of view.

I understand what you're saying but I would feel a little constrained playing that way. It's almost like I have to come to table knowing everything there is to know about my PC and must play him within that knowledge. On the other hand, if I have a flash of inspiration about my character during play, and I'm able to bring that into the fiction, it's like I've just discovered something new and interesting about that character. I really enjoy bringing a PC to the table with just scraps on information about who he is and where he's from, and a lot of unanswered questions to be filled in later.

Quote from: Seanchai;361793Yeah. I've said it twice. If you still don't get it, I can't help you.
Seanchai

Not that Sigmund needs or wants my help, but he didn't make any negative judgment on the Champions of Honour, I did. Well, me and a couple of others, but not him. So you really are being a twit. And for the record, I think the Dwarven Bouncers is kind of awesome. Think of the implication: dwarven drinking culture is both so sophisticated and so raucous, that they've developed a whole monastic order devoted solely to keeping things in line.

Quote from: Seanchai;361793Yeah. I've said it twice. If you still don't get it, I can't help you.
Seanchai

You couldn't help me anyway, I don't need your fucking help idiot. You've said nothing that has anything to do with me. Once again, being pointed out to be a troll and in the wrong, you turn to repetition rather than just admit you fucked up. I'm sure you'll now try to show how you're still superior to everyone despite being an abrasive prick who is so quick to insult you can't even get your facts straight. You go on about how you call people on their shit, but when you get called on yours you puff up and try to bluster your way through instead of just manning up and admitting you are wrong. Way to be a cowardly penis. At least you're good at something huh?

Quote from: two_fishes;361828So you really are being a twit.

What kind of response do you think someone who launches into obscenities and attacks such as, "You really are a miserable prick," when a mistake has been made deserves? Attention? A retraction? An apology? Some kind of reward for being an infantile asshat?

If you bumped into someone on the sidewalk and they turned and said, "You miserable prick! You cock! You flaming asshole!" just how quickly and profusely would you apologize?

I learned something about this place: It's at its best when you learn how to ignore folks or, at the very least, skim their posts. The type of person I generally ignore is one who is rabid. That can mean unreasoning, such as some of the extreme 4e haters, or just so full of curse words and vileness that there's no point in trying to have a conversation with them.

It's possible to disagree strongly and still be civil. Just because you can cuss and carry on here doesn't mean you should make it a habit or that it should be your go-to.

To summarize, I haven't exactly been reading his posts thoroughly and because he's being such a fucktard, I haven't felt the need for apologies or corrections.

All that said, when I said, "So Champions of Honor is silly, but Dwarven Bouncers is divine?," I didn't necessarily mean Sigmund or Sigmund alone. I was actually thinking of the folks who had leapt upon "Champions of Honor" as ridiculous but had let another player contribution, one I found more ridiculous, slide without comment.

Seanchai

Quote from: two_fishes;361828... I think the Dwarven Bouncers is kind of awesome. Think of the implication: dwarven drinking culture is both so sophisticated and so raucous, that they've developed a whole monastic order devoted solely to keeping things in line.

My thoughts as well. Plus, it was actually meant to be kinda silly, to the point where the followers were required to branch into the Drunken Master prestige class at 10th level. I was envisioning a kinda short, stocky Jackie Chan with a long beard when I made it.

Quote from: Seanchai;361834I learned something about this place: It's at its best when you learn how to ignore folks or, at the very least, skim their posts. The type of person I generally ignore is one who is rabid. That can mean unreasoning, such as some of the extreme 4e haters, or just so full of curse words and vileness that there's no point in trying to have a conversation with them.

Except you constantly answer people seemingly fitting your description here. Hell, that's why you're still here, isn't it? Flaming people you think are rabid assholes. Try applying your own words of hypocritical wisdom for once and maybe we'll see less of your crazy trips into obsessive retard territory, and more actual arguments on your part. In other words: learn to move on, dude.

Quote from: Seanchai;361834What kind of response do you think someone who launches into obscenities and attacks such as, "You really are a miserable prick," when a mistake has been made deserves? Attention? A retraction? An apology? Some kind of reward for being an infantile asshat?

If you bumped into someone on the sidewalk and they turned and said, "You miserable prick! You cock! You flaming asshole!" just how quickly and profusely would you apologize?

I learned something about this place: It's at its best when you learn how to ignore folks or, at the very least, skim their posts. The type of person I generally ignore is one who is rabid. That can mean unreasoning, such as some of the extreme 4e haters, or just so full of curse words and vileness that there's no point in trying to have a conversation with them.

It's possible to disagree strongly and still be civil. Just because you can cuss and carry on here doesn't mean you should make it a habit or that it should be your go-to.

To summarize, I haven't exactly been reading his posts thoroughly and because he's being such a fucktard, I haven't felt the need for apologies or corrections.

All that said, when I said, "So Champions of Honor is silly, but Dwarven Bouncers is divine?," I didn't necessarily mean Sigmund or Sigmund alone. I was actually thinking of the folks who had leapt upon "Champions of Honor" as ridiculous but had let another player contribution, one I found more ridiculous, slide without comment.

Seanchai

You quoted me when you wrote it, referencing what I said specifically. If you didn't mean to single me out then maybe you should have said so. Are you so thin skinned that you can't handle some obscenities, or do you not know what they mean? What you're saying is that it's ok to insult someone, as long as you don't swear while doing it, am I understanding this correctly? By the way, I'd just like to point out that I said you would try this tactic, you are very predictable. You never feel like apologies or retractions because you're apparently so arrogant you don't feel capable of making mistakes. Maybe if these horrible curse words offend you so much you should start making use of the RPG.net forums instead so your delicate sensibilities won't be injured. All the same, everyone here knows what kind of troll you are, so just keep acting unjustifiably smug, it's pretty much your only refuge anyway.

Quote from: Seanchai;361834What kind of response do you think someone who launches into obscenities and attacks such as, "You really are a miserable prick," when a mistake has been made deserves? Attention? A retraction? An apology? Some kind of reward for being an infantile asshat?

If you bumped into someone on the sidewalk and they turned and said, "You miserable prick! You cock! You flaming asshole!" just how quickly and profusely would you apologize?

I learned something about this place: It's at its best when you learn how to ignore folks or, at the very least, skim their posts. The type of person I generally ignore is one who is rabid. That can mean unreasoning, such as some of the extreme 4e haters, or just so full of curse words and vileness that there's no point in trying to have a conversation with them.

It's possible to disagree strongly and still be civil. Just because you can cuss and carry on here doesn't mean you should make it a habit or that it should be your go-to.

To summarize, I haven't exactly been reading his posts thoroughly and because he's being such a fucktard, I haven't felt the need for apologies or corrections.

All that said, when I said, "So Champions of Honor is silly, but Dwarven Bouncers is divine?," I didn't necessarily mean Sigmund or Sigmund alone. I was actually thinking of the folks who had leapt upon "Champions of Honor" as ridiculous but had let another player contribution, one I found more ridiculous, slide without comment.

Seanchai

Awesome variation. I don't mean to give your game away, but really, man, this is fucking spectacular.

Quote from: Aos;361844Awesome variation. I don't mean to give your game away, but really, man, this is fucking spectacular.

I love the part where he rants about people resorting to insults and obscenities versus the part where he calls Sigmund a fucktard, personally. Beautiful. Subtle. Very subtle.

It's always sad to see such a legendary troll fallen on hard times.

Quote from: Aos;361844Awesome variation. I don't mean to give your game away, but really, man, this is fucking spectacular.

I think a person that loses his tempers after a long arguments, and the person that got him there, are of about the same quality.

I don't think you are a troll Seanchai (and I say this as someone who has disagreed with some of the things you have said) but I don't see any point in carrying on with this.

Regards,
David R